abaya

How would you answer that question? Or any other direct question about whether you belong to X religion?

Ktsp and I were leaving the gym last night, when a clearly non-Icelandic guy came bounding along down the stairs past us--he paused briefly to ask ktsp (out of the blue--but it happens sometimes between foreigners here), "Where are you from?" Ktsp answered, "Lebanon." The guy's next question was, "Are you Muslim?" (This all happened during a split second as we 3 were hurrying down the stairs outside the gym.)

Now, ktsp answered in the moment, without knowing where this guy could be from (he looked African to me, but ktsp said that he could have been an Arab as well)--if he was from Lebanon, then ktsp's answer would have been "Yes" because ethnically/legally (through his father), he is Muslim, even if he is not religious at all, and is in fact an atheist in terms of belief. However, if the guy was not from Lebanon, then ktsp could probably have just said "No" and the guy would have proceeded along. But since there was a lot of ambiguity, and there was only about 3 seconds of this encounter from start to finish, ktsp answered, "Sort of," as a safe way of responding.

The guy laughed and said, "What! You either are, or you aren't, a Muslim. If you are, then you say Salaam Alaykum," and ktsp laughed back (it was all a very awkward situation) and said "Salaam Alaykum," and that was the end of the situation.

Now, I proceeded to discuss and dissect the whole thing on our way home from the gym, which no doubt irritated ktsp a bit (I tend to over-analyze and nit-pick a bit much on these types of things)--but I found the whole thing to be so interesting. In Lebanon, actually, no one would so casually ask about your religion 1 second after "meeting" you--it's a rather subtle, hush-hush thing there that gets "discovered" through proxy questions about your hometown, name, etc. And in America, some people do ask ME if ktsp is a Muslim (because they assume all Arabs are Muslim, I guess), and I promptly answer no, he's an atheist, and leave it at that.

However, I don't think I've ever been asked straight up, "Are you Christian?" right on the spot. I was either always assumed to be Christian (when I was in that crowd), or I wasn't, also depending on the crowd. I think that today, if someone asked me that question like they asked ktsp last night, I would just have to say "No," but then proceed to mention my history with both Christianity and Buddhism, if there was time.

Personally, my identification with a religion ultimately depends on what I ACTUALLY believe AND practice. It doesn't have to do with an ethnicity or another form of identity, as it does in Lebanon--or even sometimes in America. I know of many people who would simply answer "Yes," even though it might have been years since they went to church, and in reality perhaps they are more agnostic or atheist than religious... because they want to "be" something, or they don't want the other person to think badly of them, or they simply don't know what to say other than "Yes, I'm a Christian," even if it's not really true. I find this response to be spiritually dishonest, in a way, but I know that I'm on my high horse when I say that... not everyone feels as cut and dry about religion as I personally do.

So, in a way, I agreed with the man bounding down the gym steps. You either do or do not identify with a religion--no ifs, ands, or buts. But I also recognize that these kinds of questions don't always have those kinds of unidirectional answers, so that's why I'm interested in hearing how you all would respond. Consider yourself answering not just in your own frame of reference (your neighborhood, your country, etc), but say you were traveling abroad, around people who knew nothing about American religion, who were perhaps very religious themselves--and you simply had to answer their question.

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Halx

Sounds weird, but I'd like to be asked. So that I can say, "No," followed by, "I'm nothing." I just want to incite someone into arguing with me, really. The way I see it, whatever happens next is a story to be told around the table.

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mixedmedia

I have been asked several times and I always respond - No. I don't recall if anyone has ever queried me further. But, if they did, I would respond, 'I am nothing.' And smile.

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Charlatan

I've been asked on the spot and have, since my late teens, always responded. No. When asked to clarify I say I don't believe in gods.

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ngdawg

If I were asked if I was Christian, it'd be a flat out, emphatic NO. But, if I was asked if I was Jewish, I, too would answer "sorta".
My mother is Jewish, meaning, by Jewish dictates, I am as well. And Jewish is a culture as well-in addition to the religious practice, there is the food, the languages of Hebrew and Yiddish, even the way "we" express ourselves, which, from my mother's family, has sneaked into me and my siblings.
However, for all intents and purposes, I am an atheist with pagan leanings.
Many of my spiritual habits and core beliefs from the earliest of my life are, as I found out rather recently, identical to those of Wicca, although I have never researched it thoroughly nor practiced it.

We frequently have Jehovah Witness people come knocking; if and when they do, I, very straight faced, say, "Sorry, not interested. I'm Pagan Jewish." Stops them for few seconds....

Poppinjay

I'm mid-atlantic unorthodox. We vivsect wombats in dark ceremonies.

I've never been asked. Some mormons stopped by on the door to door tour one time, but they didn't ask. They just wanted to know if I wanted a copy of Watchtower. I was kind of annoyed because it was dog movie day on USA.

If asked, I would say yes.

If asked if I've experienced the abiding love of Jesus Christ, I would say shut the fuck up.

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abaya

Yeah, this is what I needed to process about ktsp's response. Religion in Lebanon goes hand-in-hand with ethnicity, for good or ill. It's something that I have a hard time understanding as an American--though I do see how it works from a Thai perspective. To be Thai is to be Buddhist--that's one major reason why Christian missionaries have always struggled for converts in Thailand. In some places, religion is so strongly tied up with culture, that there is almost no way of disentangling them for the average person.

Would you guys say that Christianity has a "cultural" identity in North America? It definitely does in Iceland--religion is institutionalized here, and yet it is a nation full of functional atheists. And yet, the vast majority of Icelanders are baptized, married, and buried in the church. They can't imagine doing it any other way, even if there is no faith or practice remaining.

I don't personally know many Americans who identify as Christian in a purely cultural manner--they're either very serious about their religion, or they're as far away from that as you can get. But my sample is biased according to my group of friends.

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Halx

If people ask me if I'm Jewish, the conversation is never a serious one. It usually goes like this.

"Are you Jewish?"
"No."
"Are any of your parents Jewish?"
"My mom is."
"So you're Jewish!"
"Judaism is a religion, not a race. The racial definition of a Jew was established by a French anti-semite over 100 years ago in order to classify a lesser breed of people. I'm not fucking Jewish and you need a better education."

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*Nikki*

People just assume I am Christian like you said, I have never been directly asked.

Actually now that I think about it that is a rather annoying assumption.

I'm Agnostic.

sapiens

I can't speak to Christianity generally, but I think that Catholicism has a "cultural" identity in North America (at least the way I have experienced it).
-----Added 20/8/2008 at 11 : 25 : 50-----
A man with religious tracts approached me on campus one day back when I was in college.

Man: Are you Christian?
Me: I am Catholic.
Man: What is that?
Me: ?!?!?

I wanted to say, "Do you know anything about the history of your church?"

abaya

I've fantasized about Lebanese people saying these kinds of things in their home country, but it's just not that simple. "Being Muslim" (or Christian, or any other of the 18 sects in that country) has almost zero to do with what you believe or even what you look like, and everything to do with where you were born and what your last name (from your father).

Same deal with your post--Judaism is not a race, but it *is* an ethnic identification, and the vast majority of the world's population recognizes and participates in some form or another of ethnic identification. Good or bad, it's the way things are. And after my experiences in Lebanon, I don't know how wise or productive it is to start arguments for the sake of arguments (especially about ethnicity) as a foreigner in the Middle East. In the US, sure... it's our own culture, and we know how to negotiate it. But not as a stranger in a strange land.
-----Added 20/8/2008 at 11 : 29 : 21-----
Wow, that is scary, though not altogether surprising. At my evangelical university, it was required for us to take church history classes--and we had Catholic professors, thank goodness. (Other evangelical universities will not even hire Catholic professors, if you can imagine that.) But yeah, the old American prejudice of Catholics not being "real Christians" (in the evangelical sense) is extremely bothersome.

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Xazy

Jewish religious belief means that if your mother is Jewish you are Jewish. Now what you do or do not do I do not care, but if you ask another Jew that scenario he will say you are a fellow Jew. If you want an insane long thread one that I prefer to never really discuss, since I have beat it dead with other people before just going on and on, the question is what does being Jewish mean religion or nationality / both.

I wear a yamulka I never get asked if I am anything it is very obvious my belief. That being said I have people who automatically assume that they can confront my belief and try to debate and convert me in public (mostly jews for jesus), I normally leave them wishing I would leave and stop talking to them, despite the fact that they initiated the discussion.

LoganSnake

And I would reply "No, you need a better education" and shake my head. See why in your other thread.

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Willravel

How would I respond? It depends.

If I had to be somewhere and didn't have time for a conversation, I'd say, "Shibboleth". I mean, I don't want to be killed at the fords of the Jordan. (5 points if anyone gets the reference)

If I had a few hours to kill, I'd respond "What's a Christian?" and then let them talk for a while. Then I'd systematically take apart most of their preconceptions about the Bible by asking simple questions.

Poppinjay

This assumes you're more knowledgable than every Christian on the planet.

This furthers the stereotype that most Christians don't know anything about the bible, break most of their own rules, and are essentially adlepated simpletons.

A true Christian is not some idiot who gets his brainy on by reading Left Behind books and praying for the rapture.

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Reese

I'm not, but I wouldn't just answer "no." I'd be too suspicious of that person's reason for asking. I'd have to ask them why they want to know. Some random person just doesn't need to know my religion and he should mind his own damn business.

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abaya

I'd have to agree with Poppinjay on this one. Will, I know more than a handful of Christians who would easily take you to task intellectually, long before you got a chance to ask them "simple" questions about their "preconceptions." You cannot paint them all with the same brush, far from it.
-----Added 20/8/2008 at 01 : 18 : 07-----
Excellent point. I've had the same feeling when I was asked once (by one of my formerly close friends) if my husband-to-be was a Christian... without even being asked if *I* was still a Christian. It had been some years since I had seen this person, and the first question he asks me after 5 minutes of small talk, is if my boyfriend is a Christian? I actually did find it offensive, and have not put any effort into keeping up that friendship since then.

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Willravel

The only Christian I know who has been able to demonstrate he knows Christianity better than I do is my dad, a pastor. Every time I've ever, ever been approached by a Christian who wants to talk religion, I end up having to explain things to them citing scripture.

Being an outspoken atheist in America practically requires a strong knowledge of Christianity. It's why I know "Shibboleth".

Edit: to clarify, there are probably a lot of Christians who are more knowledgeable of the Bible than I am, but they aren't ever the ones who want to start conversations about religion.
"True" Christian? Who's to say what a true Christian might be? What if Fred Phelps was a true Christian in the eyes of god? I couldn't say because I've never spoken or otherwise communicated with god.

sapiens

When I was in high school, I lived with a family in Valladolid, Spain for a very short time. Everyone I met in Spain professed to be Catholic. On Easter, the family I was staying with dropped me off at mass. The church was filled with older adults- very few people my age. My host family picked me up after mass. Talking to other people my age throughout the following week, no one I met had gone to mass on Easter. The holiest day of the year... I thought that it was strange at the time.

My sampling of Catholicism in Spain was very limited, but it matches what you describe above.

Regarding the question posed in the OP title: If someone asked me "Are you Christian?" on the spot, I would probably say, "None of your business."

abaya

Yeah, I was just going to say... the types who want to "witness" to you, are probably not the scholarly/global types who generally know better than to get in strangers' faces about religion. Strange how that goes, isn't it?

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dd3953

My answer would be quite simple, "I believe in one God, but I would not label myself a Christian."

Now if they asked questions I could explain that. I believe that there is one God, and that He (making God male is just a time saver, I'm not sure I believe God is male or female) is seen by everyone, but everyone sees different parts of Him. Like the 20 people who see the same robber but the cops end up with 15 different profiles - aka why we have some many different religions.

But after reading that, I can't help but think, "The nerve of that guy." I mean, I understand that for some people religion is important, but I grew up with the understanding that that is something you ask a friend. And that it's really only important if you plan on spending a lot of time with that person. I don't know. Maybe it's just because that is something that I would never think to ask. I really don't care what religion someone is, as long as we can get along - and they aren't doing a bunch of weird shit like killing people and eating the leftovers, you know?

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Willravel

I think it's a shame, really. If a Biblical scholar showed up at my door on a Saturday morning instead of two young men with only a shallow knowledge, I'd invite him in for tea and bounce questions off him for hours. Religion and mythology are fascinating parts of human history.

snowy

I usually answer "Yes, but I'm an Episcopalian." If the discussion goes further, the person will typically find out that my faith is devoted to the Buddhist philosophy as well. No, the two are not mutually exclusive; in fact, they meld beautifully.

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dlish

it'd depend on what mood im in if i get asked...

sometimes i'd say "yeah im muslim. but why would that change anything?"

or something im just more blunt with a "why does it matter"

in all this time on tfp ive never wondered what religion ktsp followed. didnt really bother me one bit. some of my best friends come from all walks of life, and i care not what religion people follow. i wouldnt even ask about their belief because its a non issue for me.

it would really irk me thoroughly though if a complete stranger asked me those questions.

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archpaladin

"Yes. Why do you want to know?"

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Halx

The only instances in which I'd care what religion someone is would be when I'm inviting them to go to a place where potentially offensive things might happen.

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abaya

Do you think that this partly came as a result of you growing up in a Western country, as opposed to total immersion in Lebanon? I know that for ktsp, his family is basically agnostic/atheist (despite their ethnic/legal ID's being Christian and Muslim--a relatively rare combination, as it is)--and that this shaped his worldview on religion quite a bit, much more than it would have if he was raised in a mono-religious, adherent household in Lebanon. I have also gotten the feeling that amongst his friends, most people are also like you and don't really care what religion other people follow... but I have met some Lebanese who *are* indeed interested in what religion their countrymen follow, and they always come off as being a bit creepy, somehow.

I feel that people who start a conversation with a stranger about religion, as a basis for getting to know that persona, are basically somewhat "off" in terms of personality. They have an agenda, and it makes everything awkward and unnatural. Might even be lacking in some kind of social skills, or I don't know what... due to their fervor. Maybe this is my bias, but I have felt it in many different cultures and religions (though come to think of it, never among Buddhists). It is a frankly insensitive way of getting to know someone, and usually ends up giving the exact wrong impression of your religion than you wanted to give. And yet, they persist...

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

dlish

hmm..no not really abaya. i grew up in a fairly conservative muslim family. we observed all the islamic traditions and celebrations and everything that comes along with it. we also had muslim and non muslim friends all along the way throughout my life, and i still do. some of my very best friends are non muslim. i was involved in athletics and swimming for much of my life.

my parents kept myself and my siblings within the realm of religious practices, while at the same time mingling with everyone else. their method meant i got a view of everything rather than cocooning me into a religious enclave.

in saying that there is still pressure from islamic circles that look down upon the way i think, but im my own person and i believe what i believe.

on the subject of people actually caring about what otehrs believe in, its also necesary to know that its also a part of the islamic brotherhood to care enough about who your brothers are and to greet them well with the greetings of peace. i see no malice in that.

what you probably came across sounded like a social misfit that found a common bond between ktsp and himself

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CinnamonGirl

I've been asked a few times if I'm Christian... though usually not as "on the spot" as that! I usually say something to the effect of "I was raised Christian, but I'm not religious anymore." Depending on how well I know them, I'll elaborate by saying I'm agnostic.

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mrklixx

I started a thread in Philosophy a few years ago about people labeling themselves Christian. It was met with all kinds of hostility and wrongful assumptions as to my motives. People get very touchy when you ask them to rationlize or explain reasoning for the insistence of being labeled a Christian.

But I think that the original question should be "Do you claim to be a Christian". Because it seems to me that a great many (dare I say the majority) people claim to be Christian, but practice little or no dogma resembling Christianity. If I claim to be a pilot, but I don't know how to fly a plane, don't read any flight instruction manuals, and don't plan on going to flight school, am I actually a pilot if I really really believe it.

I think you've hit it with both barrels. I think that there is an overwhelming urge to be part of a group. As well as the sense that (at least in America) that labeling oneself as a Christian instills an inflated sense of moral superiority. Many times that is the only time that there will be any indication of someones Christianity, when they are condemning the morality of someone elses actions.

I think another reason why people instinctively answer "yes" is that their ego simply won't allow them to admit "I don't know".

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levite

Judges, 12th chapter. Also, a kickass mid-Season Two episode of "West Wing."

That said, I obviously do not tell people who ask that I am a Christian, because I'm not. I usually proudly tell them that I'm Jewish. For the most part, that tends to be an end of it, unless the people who ask are missionaries.

I lived in Santa Cruz, CA for seven years, and at least at that time, it was a hotbed of Christian missionaries-- probably because of all the pagans, Wiccans, atheists, and other folks who draw missionaries like fresh meat draws dogs. I was very poor at that time (being a struggling actor), and so my cheap entertainment was to debate missionaries. Usually they were kind enough to come round to my house, providing hours of fun without the cost of Cable TV, but sometimes I actually went looking for them on the street, if it was a slow afternoon. I had a splendid time showing missionaries that they really ought to read up on their theology, history, and biblical criticism before taking to going round and inviting people to change their beliefs. I believe at least once, I actually got Jehovah's Witnesses to question their beliefs, by explaining to them (with various supporting evidence that I kept handy) that the word Jehovah is a total misnomer, and the result of an ignorant mistake.

Good times, good times....

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Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

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Willravel

I figured you'd get it! I loved that episode of the West Wing, especially when Bartlet realized that asking qualifying questions of the Chinese immigrant really wasn't what he should be doing. And then he let them go.
If you really want to have fun, try converting them to a different religion. When I see Jehova's Witnesses come to my door, I always try to grab my copy of the Qur'an.

jorgelito

I think it's a cultural thing. In the US, it's taboo to talk about religion, salary, marital status etc. But elsewhere in the world people are remarkably candid and forward with their "personal" questions. It is not uncommon to be asked "how old are you?", How much do you make?", What religion are you?" etc. It's interesting how many of you are either offended or suspicious of these types of questions. It's just a way to get to know someone.

For me, if asked, I always reply "Christian" and that's pretty much it. Or "New Jew" for the more religious inclined.

Culturally Jewish is very broad as the culture runs the gamut from all over the place. Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Persian Jews, New York Jews are very different from each other culturally.

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Cynthetiq

I'd answer the same way someone asked us in Union Square the other day,"Are you a New Yorker?"

We just kept walking...

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Daniel_

I'm an atheist, but I'm a Christian atheist (if there is such a thing).

By which I mean, I was brought up being taught about the Christian faith (Church of England), and know the rites and mores of protestantism.

It colours what I am, but I do not belive in God.

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The Echo of a distant time
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abaya

Now I KNOW you're from an Asian family! That's the first question out of all of my Thai family members' mouths when they meet someone new through me... especially when they met ktspktsp. Kinda took him by surprise (in the US), though in his culture, it's not all that uncommon, either. My mom was famous for asking my girlfriends (when they would come over to see me while I was home from college/grad school), "Do you have a boyfriend?" before even asking them how they were doing, etc. It was the first question out of her mouth--she was always MOST curious about whether they were all still virgins, etc. Hilarious.

Anyway, off my own topic here... but yeah, in my Asian family, religious discussion was right out on the table just as much as any other "taboo" topic. Quite the opposite with the rest of my family.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

AgadorSpartacus

I answer, "No, I'm Jewish." I was raised Jewish, had a Bat Mitzvah, am married to an agnostic (says he's nothing, but does not deny the existance of GD), had a Bris for my son and plan on sending him to Hebrew and Sunday school. My family celebrates all of the major Jewish holidays. I rarely go to Synagogue, but I don't feel that negates me being a Jew, just like rarely going to church negates someone elses Christianity.

I also feel that being a Jew is also a huge, if not all, of my cultural identity. I live in the suburbs of a major east coast city with a large Jewish population. Most Jews around here are Ashkenazi and really don't celebrate the culture of their ancestral country, but rather the traditions, food, belief systems, etc. that went along with being an Eastern European Jew. I work in a small dental office with a staff of 7, including the dentist. Four of us are jewish. We all have great recipes for brisket and kugel circulating in our families, very similar traditions and stories about "the old country," even if I have no idea which "old country" they are referring to nor do they know which ones I'm referring to. I'm just as much of a mutt as most Americans today. Of my Jewish relatives, I'm Russian, Ukranian and Czech. But, I don't identify myself with any of those nationalities, b/c none of the national traditions, outside of Jewish ones, were passed on to me.
My other nationality is Irish. My paternal grandmother was 100% Irish Catholic. My grandfather's family even sat shiva for him when he married her in the 1930's. Since his father, as well as the rest of my family, was a reform Jew, he is still Jewish. That said, she never instilled any Irish traditions into him before she died when he was a kid, so I don't really identify with being Irish unless it's St. Patrick's Day.

Devils Rancher

I've never encountered a stranger up and asking me my religion out of the blue. It seems horridly rude, and I think that would be my response. Something like "Why do you ask? Are you with the CIA?"

Essentially, if I don't know you from Adam, it's none of your goddam business.


(Truthfully, I don't know what "religion" I am, anyway. I was raised by devout Athiests, but am more of an Animist/Wiccan/Gnostic/Unitarian Universalist, with a heavy dose of skepticism, but still, it's none of your business if you're a stranger on the street)

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ItWasMe

I would just smile and say "yes, I am." and then go on about my business. That is, if the stranger didn't shoot me.

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jorgelito

It's weird to me because as an American, we are so open and liberal about some things but get all uptight and conservative about others while other cultures are the opposite. It took me awhile to get used to but traveling in Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East, these types of questions are very common. After awhile, I really don't mind too much. I see it as harmless getting to know you types of questions and curiosity. I just chalk it up to cultural experiences.
-----Added 20/8/2008 at 09 : 33 : 03-----
Are you American or Irish nationality (nationality is the citizenship you hold) or did you mean ethnicity?

I have found that Ashkenazi Jews are very different culturally from the rest of the Jewry. Very diverse the Jewish diaspora are.
-----Added 20/8/2008 at 09 : 34 : 18-----
It's just a cultural thing. We don't usually ask those types of questions in the US or the West but in many other cultures they do. If someone asks you that, try not to be offended, most likely they are a foreigner.

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