Transsexual men-to-women athlete questions... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JustJess · 08-10-2008, 05:14 PM

This may seem crazy... but today while I was biking all the hell over Queens, we saw a tranny walking in heels up a hill (and she beat me). My mind wandered as I tried to distract myself from my screaming thighs, and I ended up at the following thought: Why aren't there transexual athletes? I specifically mean men-turned-women in this case. It's a multiple level question, really... one, isn't there anyone who's athletic AND wants to be a woman? Why is it that any transsexual I've encountered has only embraced the stereotypical feminine roles, and not enjoyed the full range of female life available to them?

This leads me to the next question... which might be a little frivolous, but hey, 'tis the season: Would it be fair to other female athletes? What about the Olympics? What if they were a male gymnast, and went through the operation and were now a female... should they be allowed to compete in the female gymnastics events? Is it fair? Because as much as I am all about equality, well... males have a genetic predisposition for greater strength and endurance. No, not ALL of them, but in general, that is true.

At the moment, I think it'd be okay for tranny females to compete in minor sporting events, but not in something professional like the NBA or the Olympics. Why? Well, the same reason I don't think it's right for athletes to use steroids... they have an unfair advantage. On the other hand, it's not their fault they used to be male, so not all sporting events should be closed to them, just those that are compensated for performance.

Thoughts?

Willravel · 08-10-2008, 05:21 PM

I bumped into Serena Williams once. Well, I didn't bump into her, but she was at the airport and I noticed her. I believe without a doubt in my mind that she could utterly obliterate me at any physical sport without breaking a sweat. If I took the next 5 years to train until I reached the peak of my possible performance, she's still beat my little white ass up and down any field or court that there is.

It may or may not be true that the average man is more physically capable than the average woman. I don't really know with certainty. What I do know is that transvestites are wonderful people and shouldn't be kept from exploring what it is to be human. If a transvestite wanted to compete, I'd have no problem with it.

jorgelito · 08-10-2008, 05:26 PM

They do gender testing all the time at international athletic competitions. There is a strcit standard for gender qualification that they use.

snowy · 08-10-2008, 05:27 PM

They are allowed to compete in the Olympics; transsexuals must wait 2 years after sex-reassignment surgery to compete: CNN.com - Transsexual athletes OK for Athens - May 18, 2004

The IOC does chromosomal testing, but supposedly they are only testing suspect athletes at the Beijing Games. They used to test all of the female athletes. The problem with this is that chromosomal abnormalities happen even in women who are, for all appearances, normal women.

A Lab Is Set to Test the Gender of Some Female Athletes - NYTimes.com

And also, could we change the thread title to "transsexual athletes" instead of "tranny athletes"? The term tranny in the context of the thread title is unclear.

JustJess · 08-10-2008, 05:28 PM

But see, that's just the thing. I'm thinking of someone who IS one of these supremely capable types (like Serena Williams), and he is amazing as male athlete, and then gets a sex change - still okay to compete in women's sports?

Any thoughts on why transsexuals don't seem attracted to the full range of female life?

telekinetic · 08-10-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

But see, that's just the thing. I'm thinking of someone who IS one of these supremely capable types (like Serena Williams), and he is amazing as male athlete, and then gets a sex change - still okay to compete in women's sports?

Any thoughts on why transsexuals don't seem attracted to the full range of female life?

They specifically aren't allowed to participate in most sports, and have been caught doing so. Didn't you ever watch Juwana Man?

JustJess · 08-10-2008, 05:53 PM

But what do you think about that? Should they be *allowed* to compete? I don't care if they can or can't right now, I want to know if they *should*!

And no... I did not watch Juwana Man. Because I don't hate myself...

Reese · 08-10-2008, 06:26 PM

Juwanna man was awesome!

I remember an article saying there's approximately a 10% difference between men's and women's world records. That's a huge gain and a male athlete that might not even qualify for men's events could set records in the female bracket.

I found the article: Finish Line Pundit: A Track and Field Blog: Gender Differences in Athletic Performance

jorgelito · 08-10-2008, 06:33 PM

It depends on how complete the gender reassignment is. But I would say no. It's just not natural.

ironman · 08-10-2008, 08:21 PM

This is a case of it doesn't matter who or what you FEEL you are but who or what you ARE. Definitely, male transsexuals should not be allowed to compete against women and vice versa. Physically men and women are not created equal, fat percentage, pulmonary capacity, muscle distribution and composition, pain threshold, bone density, etc., are differences that separate males from females and provide advantages or disadvantages to one and others. Competitors must be presented as equals to have fair competition.

little_tippler · 08-11-2008, 03:15 AM

Well, a quick search found me this:

A Thai boxer who went from boy to girl:

Thai Boxer

A German Olympic athlete who went from girl to boy:

German Olympic Athlete

an Olympic gold-medallist whose gender is still ambiguous even after her death:

Stella Walsh

and also this article on the issue at hand:

Transgender issues in sports

Personally, I do think women and men's bodies are built differently. What I'm not sure about is whether gender should be a factor in sports or not. Take weight-lifters, or boxers, there are different categories of weight so that people are matched in capacity that way. Couldn't there be a way of matching capacity between men and women (and also transexuals or hermaphrodites, etc.) so that this would not be an issue? Even though they have had a sex-change op or aren't clearly male or female, shouldn't they be allowed to compete on the clear strength of their capabilities? It seems like a waste of someone's natural ability to excel in a sport...and I imagine must be crushing for these athletes, who not only have to deal with social pressure with regards to their personal choices but also are stripped of something they love to do and are amazing at.

MadMabel · 08-11-2008, 08:17 AM

Has it occured to anyone here to actually ask someone who is transsexual to comment?

I am a military veteran (22 years worth) who is herself transsexual. I made the male-to female change in 1986 and have been surgically complete since December 1987.

First, the word "tranny" is considered rude and insulting by most of us. I take it that way though others do not. Lets use more accurate and less offensive words to keep the discussion civil.

Point 1:There are both male to female and female to male transsexuals. There are no reliable numbers on the ratio between the two and none that can be relied on about the proportion of transsexuals in the general society. My own best guess is about two MTF (Male to Female) for each FTM (Female to Male). But this is a guess. It is safe to say that there are more transsexuals than you might imagine. Combining the numbers from various surgeons shows that there are many thousands of us.

I have lived and worked as a woman for over two decades without indication that anyone had any questions. That is hardly a unique expeience.

Point 2: Estrongen and testosterone are very powerful hormones. Feed estrogen to a genetic male and that person will lose a great deal of strength. The opposite for genetic females on testosterone.

For convenience I'm going to use MTF TS in examples from here on in. In general the opposite is true for FTMs. I am also generalizing a lot. You know how it is. Pretty much any human characteristic can be plotted onto a bell-shaped curve. Using strength as an example, a graph of the strength of women in the general population and one of men will overlap quite a bit. A lot of women are stronger than many men but the center of the bell curve will be shifted some toward the weaker side for women compared to men.

The loss of strength caaused by estrogens is very dramatic. It shows up in many ways ranging from difficulty opening pickle jars to lifting heavy lifting. When I and another TS helped a friend move later on we were told that she and I acted the same way. We would go to lift a box, get a surprised expression, then put our backs into lifting it.

As an estimate its probably safe to say my strength declined maybe 40% from what it was within a year of starting on estrogen. That's a lot.

In the case of MTF athletes they are competing with a women's musculature but a man's heavier bones. Because of this skeletal weight MTF TS are actually at a competitive disadvantage to genetic women.

Point 3: As to there being no transsexual athletes, actually there are quite a few.

Rene Richards competed in women's tennis competitions for years and had a legal fight to be recognized as a woman by the governing agency. She is not the only one who had that experience.

Mianne Bagger, an Australian, is a successful competitor in golf. She has competed at the top level in tournaments around the world.

Michelle Dumaresq was Canada's women's downhill mountain bike champion.

These are only the most famous athletes that come to mind. Google would turn up many more. There is no shortage of examples.

In addition to the pros many "women of transsexual experience" compete in amateur events such as company softball teams.

MadMabel

JustJess · 08-11-2008, 01:16 PM

MadMabel, thanks so much for posting! I had no idea the term "tranny" was offensive, so please allow me to apologize. And had I known any transsexual people personally, I certainly would have asked them for their input, so am doubly glad to see you joining our discussion.

I do of course understand that there are MTF as well as FTM transsexuals. As I did not consider the idea that FTM would have a natural athletic advantage, I did not include them in this discussion. The point about bones being much heavier - an interesting point! I was only thinking of the natural tendency to gain muscle more easily! Obviously, I can only speak in generalities, as we can't chase down every possibility in one topic.

I'm also delighted to hear that there are so many transsexual athletes. I really hated the idea that men who identified as women would limit themselves so. What do you think about the other idea I brought up? It seems like the only MTF TS people I've noticed or known have only embraced the stereotypical side of femininity. Is that true in your experience? Do you have any thoughts on why that might be, if it is so? Or is the athletic MTF TS person far more common than observations would indicate?

Thanks again for your insight, it is truly appreciated.

Craven Morehead · 08-11-2008, 06:12 PM

I love this place. MadMabel, you're a big reason why, what a very informative response.

jorgelito · 08-11-2008, 07:41 PM

Don't be offended. People came here for honest discussion. There is no way any of us could have known we had a transsexual member who could help add perspective. In any case, thank you for your contribution.

Here's another perspective:

Quote:

Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man - CNN.com

Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man

From Frederik Pleitgen CNN

BERLIN, Germany (CNN) -- Heidi Krieger proved herself one of the world's top athletes in the 1980s, winning medal after medal in the shot put for East Germany.
Andreas Krieger says his body changed soon after he began taking what coaches said were vitamins.

Andreas Krieger says his body changed soon after he began taking what coaches said were vitamins.

Now, the former sports star looks disdainfully at the awards, dismissing them as "doping medals" and honors that turned a woman into a man.

Heidi Krieger, the 1986 European women's shot-put champion, became Andreas Krieger after a sex-change operation in 1997. He says he had been fed so many steroids by his coaches without his knowledge that physical and emotional problems began.

The young woman's physique changed drastically, as did her feelings. "I felt much more attracted to women and just felt like a man. But I knew I was not lesbian," Krieger told CNN.

Her coaches said they were giving her vitamin pills, but they were actually feeding her Oral-Turinabol anabolic steroids. Video Watch how Krieger's body changed »

Krieger is among an estimated 10,000 East German athletes thought to have been given performance-enhancing drugs to help build their country into a sports powerhouse.

In the 1970s and 1980s, the German Democratic Republic was one of the most successful Olympic Games nations. But after the fall of Soviet Communism, it was revealed just how much steroids were fueling the medal machine. Sports leaders, including Manfred Ewald, the head of East Germany's National Olympic Committee from 1973 until 1990, were convicted in the doping programs.

Krieger, who is now married and runs an army surplus store, says he has taken his life into his own hands and does not want to be seen as a victim.

But he and other former East German athletes tricked by their coaches are worried that too little has been learned from their plight.

Doping remains a major issue in sports, and many drug tests will be conducted in Beijing, China, as officials try to catch any cheats hoping to go undetected and get Olympic glory.

Experts say the next step for sportsmen and women looking for an illegal boost to physical performance could be gene therapy -- so-called "gene doping."

Sports physician Willi Heepe said gene therapy means the body will basically dope itself.

If that happens, "the human monster will be a reality," he told CNN.

Krieger is worried that the pressure to win could create new victims.

"If today's athletes say they want to take the risk, they really don't know what risk they are taking," he said.

highthief · 08-12-2008, 01:33 PM

Wasn't the first such athlete a tennis player in the 70s? I think there may have been a golfer, too. Neither were really that good, it takes more than a bit of extra muscle mass to be a top athlete.

MadMabel · 08-12-2008, 02:45 PM

jorgelito: No problem on the use of "tranny". Clearly no offense was intended and none was taken.

As to the German athlete you mention, that is a good illustration of the effects of hormones on a genetic female. In the case of Heidi Krieger (now Andreas) the way her body changed was not wanted. Increased musculature, deep voice, whiskers, suppression of the menstrual cycle, etc.

Testosterone must be related to anabolic steroids. I am not chemist or physician enough to comment past that.

Craven_Morehead: Thanks for the kind words.

JustJess: On "Tranny" being offensive, as mentioned not all feel that way. Transsexuals generally dislike it because that term covers quite an assortment of human behavior. I don't like it because it lumps me in one group with drag queens, crossdressers, a variety of fetishists, etc. Its too wide an umbrella. I am a woman and want to be nothing else. Queens and crossdressers are men and are happy with that.

Again, many of those in transition, planning on transitioning, or recently post-op are trying to figure out what is what. In discussions on terminology on some of the Yahoo groups the exchange usualy starts out with a reasoned conversation but invariably soon gets to the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" level. Snooze.

Transition is just like going through puberty and adolescence a second time. Its a new world out there and there is a lot to learn.

Example: suddenly the TS person realizes that she is far more vulnerable simply for being a woman. All it takes is some jerk yelling "hey baby, come over here!" when she is wearing heels and cannot run to safety. Suddenly she learns that she can and might well be raped.

When living as a male the idea of being raped is not on the screen. Its been the subject of jokes not a real worry.

I was once read as a TS by a girlfriend about this. She was telling me about having been raped. Apparently I reacted with concern for her. But later she told me that genetic women respond with fear. They have lived with that horrid possibility since infancy. I have not. Its not a part of me as it is for other women.

Other examples:

Suddenly she finds that her opinion is treated with far less respect. As a technician I could get with other techs when one of us had a difficult problems. Ideas and suggestions get bounced back in forth. Sometimes two heads really are better than one. On my first tech job as a woman I found that my suggestions would be either pooh-poohed and dismissed or tried only as a last resort. That came as a rude surprise.

She has to get used to things like men interrupting in conversation. Men interrupt women something like ten times as often as the reverse. To this day I often have to bite my tongue when a guy decides that what he has to say is more important than what I AM saying. There have been times when I wanted to slap the guy silly for being so rude. :-)

JustJess, you also asked about why some trans people are so girly. Why they like more extreme fashions.

First, remember the trans people you notice are only a part of the whole. As for the rest I think that what we have here is a second adolescence. They/we/I (pronouns get confusing) wanted to be right in our own bodies for so long going a little extreme in fashion or behavior should be expected. In MTFs that shows up in too much makeup and wearing high heels where other women wear flats and a little mascara. In FTMs it often comes out as a macho schmuck phase as they learn what is appropriate behavior for a man.

Eventually most TS seem to just blend in with the other women or men. After all we don't go through all of this stuff just to be transsexuals. We are woman and just want to live the same sort of lives as others do.

I hope that this addresses most of your questions. If not feel free to ask.

MadMabel

jorgelito · 08-12-2008, 04:11 PM

You know what, you bring up a good point. I never really thought about the transitions and adjustments transsexuals have to go through. Besides biological and chemical, there is the cultural and social constructs of gender to deal with as well. Very interesting.

JustJess · 08-12-2008, 05:10 PM

I will respond more intelligently later on, but I just wanted to stop, and dance in joy at your response! That was a fascinating bit of information, and I really feel like you helped me understand a part of my society that I didn't understand before. I have an insatiable curiosity about the people around me, and your post was just so informative. This is just what I was trying to understand. You rock. Please stay.

MadMabel · 08-12-2008, 07:17 PM

Awwww, JustJess, comments like that make me blush.

But don't let that stop you!

MadMabel

MadMabel · 08-13-2008, 07:30 AM

HighThief, yes, you are talking about Rene Richards.

She is a ophthalmologist who had a practice in NYC. As a guy she was a competitive player in local tournaments. After transition she moved to California and tried to live a low profile life. Someone spotted her playing tennis with a friend and recognized that she had that aggressive killer instinct that makes a good tournament player. After being hectored for some time she gave in and entered a tournament. She did well.

Someone told a news reporter about her background which produced an insane media frenzy. After she was disqualified from competing in women's tennis she had to fight in court to be recognized as a woman and be allowed to compete.

She was not competing with "muscle mass" as you say, though. At her best she was apparently good enough to go pro, if not to reach the very top level of competition.

The golfer is probably Mianne Bagger. She is a ranked golfer who plays mostly on the Lady's European Tour and the Australian women's golf circuit. I do not know much about her but she has a web page and blog at Mianne Bagger - Main.

MadMabel

08-10-2008, 05:14 PM	#1 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Transsexual men-to-women athlete questions... This may seem crazy... but today while I was biking all the hell over Queens, we saw a tranny walking in heels up a hill (and she beat me). My mind wandered as I tried to distract myself from my screaming thighs, and I ended up at the following thought: Why aren't there transexual athletes? I specifically mean men-turned-women in this case. It's a multiple level question, really... one, isn't there anyone who's athletic AND wants to be a woman? Why is it that any transsexual I've encountered has only embraced the stereotypical feminine roles, and not enjoyed the full range of female life available to them? This leads me to the next question... which might be a little frivolous, but hey, 'tis the season: Would it be fair to other female athletes? What about the Olympics? What if they were a male gymnast, and went through the operation and were now a female... should they be allowed to compete in the female gymnastics events? Is it fair? Because as much as I am all about equality, well... males have a genetic predisposition for greater strength and endurance. No, not ALL of them, but in general, that is true. At the moment, I think it'd be okay for tranny females to compete in minor sporting events, but not in something professional like the NBA or the Olympics. Why? Well, the same reason I don't think it's right for athletes to use steroids... they have an unfair advantage. On the other hand, it's not their fault they used to be male, so not all sporting events should be closed to them, just those that are compensated for performance. Thoughts? __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-10-2008, 05:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	They do gender testing all the time at international athletic competitions. There is a strcit standard for gender qualification that they use. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

08-10-2008, 05:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	They are allowed to compete in the Olympics; transsexuals must wait 2 years after sex-reassignment surgery to compete: CNN.com - Transsexual athletes OK for Athens - May 18, 2004 The IOC does chromosomal testing, but supposedly they are only testing suspect athletes at the Beijing Games. They used to test all of the female athletes. The problem with this is that chromosomal abnormalities happen even in women who are, for all appearances, normal women. A Lab Is Set to Test the Gender of Some Female Athletes - NYTimes.com And also, could we change the thread title to "transsexual athletes" instead of "tranny athletes"? The term tranny in the context of the thread title is unclear. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

08-10-2008, 05:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	But see, that's just the thing. I'm thinking of someone who IS one of these supremely capable types (like Serena Williams), and he is amazing as male athlete, and then gets a sex change - still okay to compete in women's sports? Any thoughts on why transsexuals don't seem attracted to the full range of female life? __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-10-2008, 05:53 PM	#7 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	But what do you think about that? Should they be allowed to compete? I don't care if they can or can't right now, I want to know if they should! And no... I did not watch Juwana Man. Because I don't hate myself... __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-10-2008, 05:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I bumped into Serena Williams once. Well, I didn't bump into her, but she was at the airport and I noticed her. I believe without a doubt in my mind that she could utterly obliterate me at any physical sport without breaking a sweat. If I took the next 5 years to train until I reached the peak of my possible performance, she's still beat my little white ass up and down any field or court that there is. It may or may not be true that the average man is more physically capable than the average woman. I don't really know with certainty. What I do know is that transvestites are wonderful people and shouldn't be kept from exploring what it is to be human. If a transvestite wanted to compete, I'd have no problem with it.

08-10-2008, 06:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	Juwanna man was awesome! I remember an article saying there's approximately a 10% difference between men's and women's world records. That's a huge gain and a male athlete that might not even qualify for men's events could set records in the female bracket. I found the article: Finish Line Pundit: A Track and Field Blog: Gender Differences in Athletic Performance __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

08-10-2008, 06:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	It depends on how complete the gender reassignment is. But I would say no. It's just not natural. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

08-10-2008, 08:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	This is a case of it doesn't matter who or what you FEEL you are but who or what you ARE. Definitely, male transsexuals should not be allowed to compete against women and vice versa. Physically men and women are not created equal, fat percentage, pulmonary capacity, muscle distribution and composition, pain threshold, bone density, etc., are differences that separate males from females and provide advantages or disadvantages to one and others. Competitors must be presented as equals to have fair competition. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

08-11-2008, 03:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
little_tippler Leaning against the -Sun- Super Moderator Location: on the other side	Well, a quick search found me this: A Thai boxer who went from boy to girl: Thai Boxer A German Olympic athlete who went from girl to boy: German Olympic Athlete an Olympic gold-medallist whose gender is still ambiguous even after her death: Stella Walsh and also this article on the issue at hand: Transgender issues in sports Personally, I do think women and men's bodies are built differently. What I'm not sure about is whether gender should be a factor in sports or not. Take weight-lifters, or boxers, there are different categories of weight so that people are matched in capacity that way. Couldn't there be a way of matching capacity between men and women (and also transexuals or hermaphrodites, etc.) so that this would not be an issue? Even though they have had a sex-change op or aren't clearly male or female, shouldn't they be allowed to compete on the clear strength of their capabilities? It seems like a waste of someone's natural ability to excel in a sport...and I imagine must be crushing for these athletes, who not only have to deal with social pressure with regards to their personal choices but also are stripped of something they love to do and are amazing at. __________________ Whether we write or speak or do but look We are ever unapparent. What we are Cannot be transfused into word or book. Our soul from us is infinitely far. However much we give our thoughts the will To be our soul and gesture it abroad, Our hearts are incommunicable still. In what we show ourselves we are ignored. The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged By any skill of thought or trick of seeming. Unto our very selves we are abridged When we would utter to our thought our being. We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams, And each to each other dreams of others' dreams. Fernando Pessoa, 1918

08-11-2008, 08:17 AM	#12 (permalink)
MadMabel Upright Location: Portland, Oregon. The green is worth the rain.	So much ignorance and misinformation Has it occured to anyone here to actually ask someone who is transsexual to comment? I am a military veteran (22 years worth) who is herself transsexual. I made the male-to female change in 1986 and have been surgically complete since December 1987. First, the word "tranny" is considered rude and insulting by most of us. I take it that way though others do not. Lets use more accurate and less offensive words to keep the discussion civil. Point 1:There are both male to female and female to male transsexuals. There are no reliable numbers on the ratio between the two and none that can be relied on about the proportion of transsexuals in the general society. My own best guess is about two MTF (Male to Female) for each FTM (Female to Male). But this is a guess. It is safe to say that there are more transsexuals than you might imagine. Combining the numbers from various surgeons shows that there are many thousands of us. I have lived and worked as a woman for over two decades without indication that anyone had any questions. That is hardly a unique expeience. Point 2: Estrongen and testosterone are very powerful hormones. Feed estrogen to a genetic male and that person will lose a great deal of strength. The opposite for genetic females on testosterone. For convenience I'm going to use MTF TS in examples from here on in. In general the opposite is true for FTMs. I am also generalizing a lot. You know how it is. Pretty much any human characteristic can be plotted onto a bell-shaped curve. Using strength as an example, a graph of the strength of women in the general population and one of men will overlap quite a bit. A lot of women are stronger than many men but the center of the bell curve will be shifted some toward the weaker side for women compared to men. The loss of strength caaused by estrogens is very dramatic. It shows up in many ways ranging from difficulty opening pickle jars to lifting heavy lifting. When I and another TS helped a friend move later on we were told that she and I acted the same way. We would go to lift a box, get a surprised expression, then put our backs into lifting it. As an estimate its probably safe to say my strength declined maybe 40% from what it was within a year of starting on estrogen. That's a lot. In the case of MTF athletes they are competing with a women's musculature but a man's heavier bones. Because of this skeletal weight MTF TS are actually at a competitive disadvantage to genetic women. Point 3: As to there being no transsexual athletes, actually there are quite a few. Rene Richards competed in women's tennis competitions for years and had a legal fight to be recognized as a woman by the governing agency. She is not the only one who had that experience. Mianne Bagger, an Australian, is a successful competitor in golf. She has competed at the top level in tournaments around the world. Michelle Dumaresq was Canada's women's downhill mountain bike champion. These are only the most famous athletes that come to mind. Google would turn up many more. There is no shortage of examples. In addition to the pros many "women of transsexual experience" compete in amateur events such as company softball teams. MadMabel

08-11-2008, 01:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	MadMabel, thanks so much for posting! I had no idea the term "tranny" was offensive, so please allow me to apologize. And had I known any transsexual people personally, I certainly would have asked them for their input, so am doubly glad to see you joining our discussion. I do of course understand that there are MTF as well as FTM transsexuals. As I did not consider the idea that FTM would have a natural athletic advantage, I did not include them in this discussion. The point about bones being much heavier - an interesting point! I was only thinking of the natural tendency to gain muscle more easily! Obviously, I can only speak in generalities, as we can't chase down every possibility in one topic. I'm also delighted to hear that there are so many transsexual athletes. I really hated the idea that men who identified as women would limit themselves so. What do you think about the other idea I brought up? It seems like the only MTF TS people I've noticed or known have only embraced the stereotypical side of femininity. Is that true in your experience? Do you have any thoughts on why that might be, if it is so? Or is the athletic MTF TS person far more common than observations would indicate? Thanks again for your insight, it is truly appreciated. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-11-2008, 06:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	I love this place. MadMabel, you're a big reason why, what a very informative response.

08-12-2008, 01:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	Wasn't the first such athlete a tennis player in the 70s? I think there may have been a golfer, too. Neither were really that good, it takes more than a bit of extra muscle mass to be a top athlete. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

08-12-2008, 02:45 PM	#17 (permalink)
MadMabel Upright Location: Portland, Oregon. The green is worth the rain.	jorgelito: No problem on the use of "tranny". Clearly no offense was intended and none was taken. As to the German athlete you mention, that is a good illustration of the effects of hormones on a genetic female. In the case of Heidi Krieger (now Andreas) the way her body changed was not wanted. Increased musculature, deep voice, whiskers, suppression of the menstrual cycle, etc. Testosterone must be related to anabolic steroids. I am not chemist or physician enough to comment past that. Craven_Morehead: Thanks for the kind words. JustJess: On "Tranny" being offensive, as mentioned not all feel that way. Transsexuals generally dislike it because that term covers quite an assortment of human behavior. I don't like it because it lumps me in one group with drag queens, crossdressers, a variety of fetishists, etc. Its too wide an umbrella. I am a woman and want to be nothing else. Queens and crossdressers are men and are happy with that. Again, many of those in transition, planning on transitioning, or recently post-op are trying to figure out what is what. In discussions on terminology on some of the Yahoo groups the exchange usualy starts out with a reasoned conversation but invariably soon gets to the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" level. Snooze. Transition is just like going through puberty and adolescence a second time. Its a new world out there and there is a lot to learn. Example: suddenly the TS person realizes that she is far more vulnerable simply for being a woman. All it takes is some jerk yelling "hey baby, come over here!" when she is wearing heels and cannot run to safety. Suddenly she learns that she can and might well be raped. When living as a male the idea of being raped is not on the screen. Its been the subject of jokes not a real worry. I was once read as a TS by a girlfriend about this. She was telling me about having been raped. Apparently I reacted with concern for her. But later she told me that genetic women respond with fear. They have lived with that horrid possibility since infancy. I have not. Its not a part of me as it is for other women. Other examples: Suddenly she finds that her opinion is treated with far less respect. As a technician I could get with other techs when one of us had a difficult problems. Ideas and suggestions get bounced back in forth. Sometimes two heads really are better than one. On my first tech job as a woman I found that my suggestions would be either pooh-poohed and dismissed or tried only as a last resort. That came as a rude surprise. She has to get used to things like men interrupting in conversation. Men interrupt women something like ten times as often as the reverse. To this day I often have to bite my tongue when a guy decides that what he has to say is more important than what I AM saying. There have been times when I wanted to slap the guy silly for being so rude. :-) JustJess, you also asked about why some trans people are so girly. Why they like more extreme fashions. First, remember the trans people you notice are only a part of the whole. As for the rest I think that what we have here is a second adolescence. They/we/I (pronouns get confusing) wanted to be right in our own bodies for so long going a little extreme in fashion or behavior should be expected. In MTFs that shows up in too much makeup and wearing high heels where other women wear flats and a little mascara. In FTMs it often comes out as a macho schmuck phase as they learn what is appropriate behavior for a man. Eventually most TS seem to just blend in with the other women or men. After all we don't go through all of this stuff just to be transsexuals. We are woman and just want to live the same sort of lives as others do. I hope that this addresses most of your questions. If not feel free to ask. MadMabel

08-12-2008, 04:11 PM	#18 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	You know what, you bring up a good point. I never really thought about the transitions and adjustments transsexuals have to go through. Besides biological and chemical, there is the cultural and social constructs of gender to deal with as well. Very interesting. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

08-12-2008, 05:10 PM	#19 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I will respond more intelligently later on, but I just wanted to stop, and dance in joy at your response! That was a fascinating bit of information, and I really feel like you helped me understand a part of my society that I didn't understand before. I have an insatiable curiosity about the people around me, and your post was just so informative. This is just what I was trying to understand. You rock. Please stay. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-12-2008, 07:17 PM	#20 (permalink)
MadMabel Upright Location: Portland, Oregon. The green is worth the rain.	Awwww Awwww, JustJess, comments like that make me blush. But don't let that stop you! MadMabel

08-13-2008, 07:30 AM	#21 (permalink)
MadMabel Upright Location: Portland, Oregon. The green is worth the rain.	HighThief, yes, you are talking about Rene Richards. She is a ophthalmologist who had a practice in NYC. As a guy she was a competitive player in local tournaments. After transition she moved to California and tried to live a low profile life. Someone spotted her playing tennis with a friend and recognized that she had that aggressive killer instinct that makes a good tournament player. After being hectored for some time she gave in and entered a tournament. She did well. Someone told a news reporter about her background which produced an insane media frenzy. After she was disqualified from competing in women's tennis she had to fight in court to be recognized as a woman and be allowed to compete. She was not competing with "muscle mass" as you say, though. At her best she was apparently good enough to go pro, if not to reach the very top level of competition. The golfer is probably Mianne Bagger. She is a ranked golfer who plays mostly on the Lady's European Tour and the Australian women's golf circuit. I do not know much about her but she has a web page and blog at Mianne Bagger - Main. MadMabel Last edited by MadMabel; 08-13-2008 at 07:34 AM..