![]() |
![]() |
#1 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
Georgia On My Mind
What the hell? War between Russia and Georgia. Things are pretty intense and have escalated rapidly. From what I can tell:
Russia supports a rebel independence breakaway group in Georgia, South Ossetia. The Georgians sent in troops and the Russians moved in to back the rebels. Hundreds of dead civilians. This could get bad.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
Russia battles Georgia over breakaway region of South Ossetia | World news | guardian.co.uk
this page from the guardian has some video and audio clips. this with a bit more context: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...th-ossetia.htm still gathering information, but it does appear as though, in the parlance of our times, the shit may hit the fan here quickly, if it hasn't already.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-08-2008 at 01:39 PM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
It looks like the Georgians were the aggressors although none of the three parties are guiltless. This should make the Olympics more interesting.
I guess this means people will be boycotting Russia and Georgia now.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 (permalink) |
Upright
Location: Republic of Tejas
|
To be honest, I hope the US stays out of it. We've been digging in Russia's backyard for too long. Eastern Europe and the Caucasus belong to Russia's sphere of influence. Hopefully they can settle this quickly and with a minimum of Chechnya-like bloodshed.
__________________
Philosopher-in-Training “The present writer…writes because for him it is a luxury which becomes the more agreeable and more evident, the fewer there are who buy and read what he writes.” —Søren Kierkegaard |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 (permalink) | |
Sauce Puppet
|
Quote:
Agreed, I hope we don't jump any guns. Right now, it sounds like Georgians are requesting American flights for their 2000 soldiers in Iraq to return home to help fight on their homeland. I'm not sure what's happening there. I'll be following this as more information becomes available.
__________________
In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#8 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
|
The NYTimes has an article covering the conflict:
Quote:
South Ossetia News - Breaking World South Ossetia News - The New York Times It's certainly worrying, and I wonder how it will all play out.
__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#9 (permalink) | |
sufferable
|
Quote:
__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#10 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
|
If I recall correctly Georgia supports the Chechnyans (sp?) in their conflict because it hurts Russia. It's only right Russia kicks them in the balls in turn.
__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
apparently south ossetia declared independence and russia was the only other country to recognize it. georgia sees it as a breakway state, so has been engaged in some low-level conflict with a "seperatist group"---which i put in quotes because in this context it's hard tp know what exactly that'd refer to. because states and ethnicities are aligned in the post-stalinist context, the fact that ossetia is majority not georgian seems at the heart of it---from what i've seen (you have too, if you've read about this) most ossetians have russian passports. georgia sent its military into south ossetia on thursday, the russians yesterday. things have apparently grown very ugly very fast.
so there were two opening ceremonies yesterday. most international organizations are shouting: STOP THAT. at least 1500 people are dead. addendum: apparently georgia applied for nato membership. so the subtext is clearer... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...eorgia.russia3
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-09-2008 at 06:54 AM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
In my opinion, it looks like the Russians are at fault for invading the Georgians. I know they were supporting/liberating the Separatists but it seems like they were just looking for any excuse to attack the Georgians.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
i've been seeing articles that claim the idea for the russians is to depose the government of georgia itself. if that turns out to be the case, this is about nato, not south ossetia.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 (permalink) | ||
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
|
Quote:
i can see the loose ties between the caucasian populations become increasingly tight, and predict more bloodshed with the unification of different nations against a common enemy. russia obviously didnt learn from the 2 Chechen wars. Quote:
__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#15 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
apparently, the russians aren't bothering with this pesky border business are are heading straight into georgia.
perhaps someone gave the military faulty maps. or perhaps this is a bit of "regime change" action. and it's not like the americans can or will say anything about it. not really. Quote:
edit--later: here's another set of factoids which helps put at least some other aspect of this into perspective: Quote:
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-10-2008 at 11:56 AM.. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#16 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
The Georgian's aren't innocent either. The real victims are the thousands of civilians massacred. Funny how there isn't much outrage over this.
Anyways, I thought this was touching. Quote:
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#18 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
Quote:
It looks like this was part of some grand strategy by the Russians for land grab and posturing. Also a warning to Ukraine. The Russians seem really aggressive and bent on finishing the task. At this rate, things could escalate and spiral out of control. Unfortunately, I don't see the US and definitely not the UN stepping in to help.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#19 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
if you read the morning's papers you can almost hear the voice of the government of georgia asking: "where's nato?"
george w bush is watching the olympics, taking advantage of being lame-duck; cheney has been doing what cheney does, which is to threaten Consequences, except without being able to specify what they are. in the un, there are problems of language in the security council and another which has to do, as was the case with iraq, with military action regardless of justification carried out by a permanent member state. with this, the problem of structure is made self-evident again--the security council is set up to enable the permanent members total impunity while preserving the illusion of diplomatic engagement. meanwhile, it is impossible to feel much of any sympathy with georgia, except maybe in a david and goliath kinda way, because they decided to move against south ossetia. meanwhile, again, lots of civilians die. the olympics continue. everything is normal.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 (permalink) | |
Crazy
|
Quote:
...I hope. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#21 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
sometimes I think we need to tap Tom Clancy for our foreign policy advisor.
Ghost Recon video game Ghost Recon begins in April 16, 2008, with civil unrest in Russia. Ultra-nationalists have seized power in Moscow, with plans to rebuild the Iron Curtain. Their first step is clandestine support of rebel factions in Georgia and the Baltic States. This storyline foreshadows the 2008 South Ossetia War. This is where the Ghosts come in: to silence the rebellion. Armed with some of the most advanced weaponry in the world, the soldiers of the Ghost Recon force are covertly inserted into Eastern Europe and given specific missions to curtail the rebel actions and overthrow their benefactors.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: The True North Strong and Free!
|
Quote:
This is exactly how I view the issue. Russia (Putin) is trying to expand it's borders. This should be of major concern to the west. If I was living in Eastern Europe I wouldn't be feeling to secure right about now. The world (Nato, UN, etc) need to step in and stop this.
__________________
"It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#23 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
nato isn't going to do anything.
the americans cannot do anything. the united nations will not do anything. no-one will do anything. i think the russians want a different government in georgia. i think they'll get one. "regime change"---the americans have done it for years too, so it's not like there's any moral high ground to be had on this. i don't see them occupying georgia outright. in the end, the government of georgia threw the dice and apparently is in the process of losing. they did not have to move into south ossetia. they chose to do it. meanwhile, civilians die. people like you and me. that is what happens in such situations.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 (permalink) |
Crazy
|
America is not now, nor has it ever been, Georgia's ally.
Russia is at no fault, to my knowledge. South Ossetia is 100% Russian. Hell, 96% of them have Russian passports. For years, there have been reports of Georgian troops razing villages and killing civilians. There are estimated numbers of 9,000 more dead because of this. Russia deployed peacekeepers recently to provide a show of force in the area. Georgia, possibly thinking it can create support for it's cause, attacked a local peacekeeping force, and killed 30 Russian Troops. Russia responded and kicked their ass. If anything, I say go Russia. As for breaking Georgian borders, Vladimir Putin demanded that Georgian troops retreat and disband their weapons by Sunday. This did not happen, hence the invasion of Georgia. Is it me or does it seem as though mass media is making Russia at fault for this all? Also, to anyone who has heard this, this is nothing like the Afghan-Russo war of 1979. I have heard this claim repeatedly on the news. Afghanistan was a small, neutral nation that was trading with Europe. The U.S.S.R. saw Afghanistan's importance, as the nation is rich in Oil and Natural Gas [about 5% of the worlds oil, and at that time 30% of Russia's oil pipelines ran through Afghanistan], and took them over with no provocation, as opposed to this situation where Georgia killed Russian troops and incited a war.
__________________
Focus. Control. Conviction. Resolve. A true ace lacks none of these attributes. Nothing can deter you from the task at hand except your own fears. This is your sky. Last edited by BogeyDope; 08-11-2008 at 04:26 PM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 (permalink) |
Crazy
|
Not sure if this was mentioned already, but Georgia 'started it'. Russia is capitalizing on the provocation. So our relative justification for stepping in is dubious. Aside from the fact that it is a war and civilians are dying, what is so special this time? Nothing... Except that it's Russia, and no one seems to want to see Russia get powerful again. In that way, our primary motivation is a somewhat selfish fear. So putting that aside, what real right have we to step in?
So they'll take whatever they can in this instance probably... But the big question is what's next? If they invaded Ukraine, for instance, would there be enough justification then for intervention? No clue, there... |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 (permalink) | |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
|
Quote:
small as in small size? have you seen a map of afghanistan lately? not that i disagree with most of what you said though... maybe it wasnt well known, but definately not small by any means. this is getting messy in georgia but i dont see much response from the rest of the world. its like russia vs chechnya all over again. big burly brother showing its military might against a much weaker younger brother. that sounds about right.... the rest of the world will continue to ignore georgia like it did with chechnya. im not so sure about what interests russia has in ossetia, but there must be something. i know that they needed the oil pipes to run through chechnya, so they wouldnt allow it its independance. no ones really spoken about this yet. i doubts its just about russia standing up for south ossetia. theres gotta be something in it for russia.
__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#27 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
It's really too bad. All of standing around watching another country bully its way into another one (I know, slippery slope). What's next Ukraine?
What can we do? The UN is impotent and completely useless. US is overstretched and not eager to take action. Yes there a ton of conflicts everywhere but we can't keep ignoring them. Russia may have not "started" it, but its actions are hardly justifiable.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 (permalink) | |
Crazy
|
Quote:
Russia's actions are very justifiable. It was originally their land, it was their people being killed by the Georgians, and their peacekeepers were attacked by Georgian troops. I think that is enough justification to take back what is theirs. On top of that, they allowed the Georgians a generous amount of time to withdraw and surrender, but they passed that chance, so all the more reason to continue.
__________________
Focus. Control. Conviction. Resolve. A true ace lacks none of these attributes. Nothing can deter you from the task at hand except your own fears. This is your sky. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#29 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
Quote:
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#31 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
It was a "breakaway separatist movement" in sovereign Georgian territory. The Russian illegally occupied Georgian territory then further violated their sovereignty by issuing Russian passports and citizenships to Georgian citizens. I do not agree that the Russian's actions were justifiable. Were the Russian actions in separatist Chechnya justifiable too? Why is ok for the Russians to suppress a separatist movement in their country but not ok for the Georgians to suppress a separatist movement in their own country?
-----Added 12/8/2008 at 04 : 31 : 59----- Ok, what's your point? I disagree.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter Last edited by jorgelito; 08-12-2008 at 12:31 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
|
Quote:
What would you do if Canada would send some "Peace Tropps" to an US Region? Both Sides are playing and have different interests, lots of grey shades I think this sums it up nicely: Of Helpless Hotheads and Half-Baked Warriors
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#34 (permalink) | |
Crazy
|
Quote:
Are you kidding me? International law? South Ossetia was and always has been Russian. Just because the Georgians grabbed it due to anti-Russian feelings with the fall of the Soviet Union doesn't mean it's theirs. Hell, the Ossetians are helping the Russian troops fight against the Georgian's. You want to talk about International law, let's talk about the fact that the Ossetians want to be under Russian control, and in that case, the truth comes out; Russia is currently liberating it's own territory. There are no gray shades. Just the bs anti-Russian propaganda the news is constantly projecting. -----Added 12/8/2008 at 09 : 35 : 12----- No, it is not debatable. You can't argue logic and hard facts. Russia had peacekeepers, they were attacked, they responded justifiably. It goes beyond that too. In the last 16 years, thousands of Russians have been killed, dozens of villages have been razed, and Russia has been provoked time and time again. But of course, if people knew that, then the Russians wouldn't seem so bad, would they?
__________________
Focus. Control. Conviction. Resolve. A true ace lacks none of these attributes. Nothing can deter you from the task at hand except your own fears. This is your sky. Last edited by BogeyDope; 08-12-2008 at 05:41 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#35 (permalink) |
Crazy
|
Georgia is the successor to the Georgian SSR and South Ossetia was an Autonomous oblast inside the Geogian SSR.Can you please explain the idea that South Ossetia is a part of Russia.The Russian SFSR had 16 Autonomous Republics,does this mean they can declare independence as well .
Last edited by Fohur2; 08-12-2008 at 06:23 PM.. |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
Quote:
There hasn't been much anti-Russian bias so far. There has been good reporting on both (or three) side thus far. What I do know is that the Russian "peace keepers" shouldn't have been there in the first place. From all accounts, Georgia is a sovereign country and "South Ossetia" is part of Georgia. Therefore Russia's invasion and occupation of Georgia was a violation of Georgia's sovereignty. If you feel we are wrong here, then please, give us an explanation and walk us through it. -----Added 12/8/2008 at 11 : 02 : 36----- Well, it looks like both sides has agreed to a cease fire. We'll see what happens from here.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter Last edited by jorgelito; 08-12-2008 at 07:02 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#37 (permalink) | |
undead
Location: Duisburg, Germany
|
Quote:
No Nation has recognized SOs independence, besinde Russia of course. They have done it just to piss off the Georgians and to do some payback to the West. Russia is not a peaceloving Liberator, remember what they did to the Chechens when they went for independence? One of the Problems is, IMO, that there are no commonly accepted rules for seperation. This has caused a shitload of Problems in the past (Chechnya, Kosovo etc.) and will continue to cause problems.
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#38 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: Republic of Tejas
|
Quote:
__________________
Philosopher-in-Training “The present writer…writes because for him it is a luxury which becomes the more agreeable and more evident, the fewer there are who buy and read what he writes.” —Søren Kierkegaard |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#39 (permalink) |
Crazy
|
Just a small correction,Russia hasn't recognized SO's independence.So it is in fact invading Georgia since it itself considers SO part of Georgia.That doesn't mean they wouldn't support SO if it wasn't more of an international issue.This new European peace plan for an end to the conflict which was accepted my Mendeleev calls for "the start of international discussions on the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and ways of providing for their stable security".
|
![]() |
![]() |
#40 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
|
Interesting, thanks for the update.
__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
![]() |
Tags |
georgia, mind |
|
|