Baraka_Guru

Not in my market. Tim Hortons coffee starts at around $1.00. Extra larges are, like, $1.50 I think. McDonald's has to compete with that, and they do. Starbucks tall starts at around $1.85.

I have, but I prefer dark roast. But one should not overroast my dark roast.

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The_Jazz

But it is arbitrary. For everyone else, those sizes are small, medium, large and extra large. That is how I order them. I refuse to learn how to "officially" order sizes at Starbucks. Why should I have to learn their codewords for their sizes?

The fact that you had to explain at all basically proves my point.

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ktspktsp

I'm not a Starbucks fan, though I will go there if I can't find a place that sells espresso, and I want one. I don't like drip coffee nor milk so I basically always order espresso (probably because strength-wise it matches the turkish coffee I grew up drinking).

For me, the problem with Starbucks is that they seem to have moved to automated machines for their coffee: a button is pressed and your coffee is made. Therefore the barista doesn't have to master the skills of making a good shot (which include factors like adjusting the amout and tamping pressure on the grounds to account for the type and grind of the beans, etc). So starbucks coffee ends up being a more or less consistent, though mediocre, product.

Of course, if you're mixing the coffee with a lot of milk and whatnot, then it doesn't matter as much because the taste of the coffee in the drink will be much less distinct.

And yes they tend to overroast, which is another thing that enables them to establish a uniform taste across different places.

jorgelito

Oops, thanks for the correction. Short. I think short is available only on request except the children's drink.

The mild blends would be good for Baraka too

xepherys

Well, the flip side of that is that even "properly" named sizes are arbitrary except as compared to each other. A McD's small drink today is the exact size of a McD's medium drink 15 years ago. MD became SM, LG became MD and the new lard ass sized cup o' sugar is now LG. They did the same thing with fries, and then about 8-10 years ago started offering SMALL fries again if you specially ordered them... I still don't think they are on the menu. It's the size they put in a Happy Meal.

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Sion

"coffee culture"

now there's a phrase that just makes my skin crawl...makes me want to vomit...makes me feel like I'm channeling George Carlin during one of his "fuck you, you trendy scumbag" rants

coffee is not a culture, it's a damned hot beverage and nothing more!

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genuinegirly

Hmmm, that's very odd. $1.45 for a tall Starbucks drip coffee around here, and at McDonald's it is $1.65

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Baraka_Guru

Yeah, it reminds me of "gun culture."

It's not the coffee that's the culture; it's what people are doing around it. If you're a writer who hangs around other writers at a coffee shop and you exchange ideas, show each other your work, and proudly announce your next publication, then what you are partaking in is writing culture or literary culture. The coffee is the thing you drink to give you a buzz to do so.

You must be in the States or something.

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xepherys

Well, technically, ANY culture is "just something" to people not into it. Music can be cultural... or just notes played on instruments, air blown through tubes or metal struck. Movies can culture, or just moving pictures telling lame stories. *shrug*

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Sion

you guys use a very broad, vague definition of culture

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xepherys

Who is "you guys"? I don't consider the "coffee culture" to be anything serious. I do however think that culture, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

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Sion

you and Baraka Guru

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xepherys

Perhaps you have a very narrow, rigid definition of culture...

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Baraka_Guru

Oh, I can be more specific about literary culture if you want. I was just giving you an example of what literary types would do in a coffee shop, which is vaguely on topic in this thread.

Culture generally is an open word. It's up to those who use it to properly contextualize it.

What are you getting at, exactly?

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Xoote

thats disgusting

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Sion

actually, I thought my original comments on the subject pretty well summed up my position:

"now there's a phrase that just makes my skin crawl...makes me want to vomit...makes me feel like I'm channeling George Carlin during one of his "fuck you, you trendy scumbag" rants

coffee is not a culture, it's a damned hot beverage and nothing more!"


but since you insist on more: basically, I see culture as another one of those over-used words that loses a little bit more of its meaning each time it's tacked onto something that someone is a little too preoccupied with.

"gun culture"..."drug culture"..."coffee culture"

what's next? "paper clip culture"

I see it as a pretentious way to describe a (possibly unhealthy) interest in something. when everything is a culture, then nothing is.

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Baraka_Guru

You're assuming "culture" has a value in and of itself. It's use should not suggest that. Today, it's use is for categorization purposes. It's easier to say "Coffee culture" than "What people do in coffee shops and how they enjoy their coffee."

Don't get hung up on the word. It's a word of utility more than anything. There is no capital "C" culture anymore. That died around the turn of the 20th century—actually, probably during or just after the Great Wars.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

biznatch

I personally believe Starbucks coffee is terrible. i drink a lot of coffee, and even though the crap you find at Delis in NYC is terrible, it's usually between 50c and a dollar for a cup, and it still tastes better in my opinion.
Also I don't like their company too much because they kind of stole the market from all the independent coffee shops, but I suppose more power to them.

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xepherys

They didn't "steal" the market from indies... The indies let them come and take it. *shrug* That's generally how it works. You think Wal-Mart "stole" the mom-and-pop shop? No, but not enough was done early on to stop them. Same deal... Think about it this way. The anti-Sbux crowd here say the coffee is too pricey and not very good. The neighborhood cafe is tastier and cheaper. If that's true, how is Sbux so huge? Why would people pay $5 for a cup of sub-standard coffee when they could drive two more blocks and pay $1 for a great cup?

At any rate, I like Sbux coffee and Caribou as well. I HATE Beaners/Bigby coffee. As for smaller cafes? They are hit and miss, so if I'm in the mood to be adventurous, I'll try one. If I just need good coffee I go where I know I can get it.

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JustJess

On topic: nice picture!
Off topic:
I love Sbux. I do. You can't make me change my mind. I don't drink "real" coffee, so I have to get my caffeine in light and sweet concoctions. Thus my MEDIUM (i don't use their terms) caramel skim latte. Yummmmmmm.

If you get the light version of the caramel frappuccino, it's only 180 calories. And tastes awesome.

DON'T get sugar-free syrups, though, they suck. They have a chemical aftertaste that is truly disturbing and grody.

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xepherys

a) This is true. In fact, Sbux and B&N (A Sbux branded cafe) are getting rid of many of their sugar-free syrups and going to a light syrup (either lower sugar or Sucralose... not sure which)

b) grody? LOL

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xepherys

Just saw this pic on TMs phone again. I had, oddly enough, forgotten about it. *sigh* Gotta love customer service like this!
-----Added 11/8/2008 at 09 : 40 : 42-----


Latte is real coffee. Most "real" coffee drinkers couldn't handle the power of espresso!

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snowy

They certainly didn't steal any market share from the independent coffee shops in my town. Starbucks is probably the least popular coffee place here, though it is busy on Saturday mornings--when all the independent coffee shops are packed.

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BogeyDope

You're not beating anything, starbucks shut down those locations because Howard Schultz wants it to return to its roots.

Oh, and I know this because I work for them and I know people high in corporate.

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Baraka_Guru

Any regression in a disease such as a plague should be seen as a victory. Even if it does it on its own accord.

We win again!

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jorgelito

Baraka, why do you see it as a win if Starbucks closes stores? Why all the hatred and vitriolic sentiment?

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JustJess

1. Xepherys - lattes may be real coffee, but they don't taste like it.

2. I'd go to a "real" cafe, but they are always too strong for me, too bitter. I ask for extra milk, and it's like I'm talking to myself. That said, there's one awesome place in my nabe, but it's completely inconvenient to my commute (and their prices aren't that much cheaper, actually).

3. Baraka, dude... go enjoy your coffee-snob stuff! (I say that with all affection.) It's all good! Just don't hate on those of us who enjoy our Starbucks! I agree there might be a few *too* many stores in places like NYC, but overall? Who cares? They're not an evil company. They take care of their employees, they give back, and they don't kick puppies. A win all round, I'd say.

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Baraka_Guru

Guys, I was joking. See my post 32. Besides, I prefer the invective over the vitriolic, so you'll know when I'm hating something.

As long as Starbucks doesn't participate in unethical practices, then I have nothing against them. But that goes for just about anybody. I am far from being a coffee snob. I drink all kinds of stuff. I'm not even adverse to using those instant coffee vending machines when I'm in a pinch.

jorgelito, just don't get me started on the Olympics.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

BogeyDope

haha, in that case, Victory!

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jorgelito

Starbucks is a fine company; not perfect, no corporation is, but they are good as it is. I just find it disingenuous to pick on Starbucks.

What does the Olympics have to do with coffee? As far as I know, Starbucks is not affiliated with the Olympics.

By the way, there are a few great threads on the Olympics you should participate in if you want to talk about Olympics.

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Baraka_Guru

Only in presence. Currently, the Olympics can be found "on every corner," just like Starbucks. (I watched a record-breaking swim by accident.) Imagine the Starbucks outlets that are serving the visitors in Beijing, as well.

Are there any in Philosophy or Politics?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

what you make of starbucks is a function of what you choose to look at---if all you see is a retail outlet that sells mediocre-to-ok coffee (which can be excellent coffee in a context that doesn't otherwise provide it from a retail viewpoint) then you head one way---if you prefer locally owned places and a greater variety of interiors and coffees, then you go another-- (on this much depends on where you live--in philadelphia, starbucks definitely had an impact on the coffeehouse circuit, but they didn't kill it off by any means---in chicago, it seems that the folk never really understood the coffeehouse thing at all, so the impact starbucks had was, from what i could tell, a zero-sum thing: most places sucked anyway, starbucks tends to suck, so it all zeros out). if you look at them in terms of how anti-globalization mobilizations constructed their symbol-systems in the late 1990s, then detesting starbucks becomes more comprehensible.

thing is that the pressure they got from this last bit makes them kinda interesting in terms of their purchasing strategies.
i don't know how much folk care about where the stuff they consume comes from, but anyway: fair trade coffee is often better in terms of flavor and is definitely preferable in terms of the politics of coffee production (direct democratic producer collectives...) but it comes with a limit on how much they can supply--starbucks is on the industrial side of the procurement system---so they developed their curious "cafe" system, which enables them to get about 20% of their coffee via fair trade---enough so they can use the logo---and the rest from plantations and other conventional (monocrop) growers. in this, starbucks really has the basic problems of the industrial food system as a whole, in a condensed form, and with reference to a relatively GMO-free commodity (coffee) the problems associated with which have largely to do with how production is organized.

but like i said, it's just a cup of joe.

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jorgelito

Consider yourself lucky to have witnessed that historical and exciting event. I do not have television and had to watch highlights on the net. It's hard to get coverage of the Olympics here in the US. The Olympic threads are in General Discussion where it makes the most sense. Feel free to stop by and participate.

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Baraka_Guru

Sorry, I don't feel so lucky. It was rather anticlimactic for me.

I'm not that interested in general discussions of the Olympics, but thanks for the invite. I much prefer discussions of coffee and its distribution.

* * * * *

roachboy, that's a good summary—thank you.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ayashe

I have heard that Tim Hortons coffee is wonderful, never tried it myself. One of these days I will have to order some of their beans and give them a try. As for Starbucks.. well perhaps the pee is why I never cared for the taste of their coffeee. On the rare occasion I would go to a coffee shop it would be from Caribou, Kodiak or Dunn Brothers. Preferably Kodiak, though they are out of the way for me.