Yellow is the New Black - Chinese Africans - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

jorgelito · 06-19-2008, 07:26 PM

Well I have always thought of race as being entirely idiotic but this just takes the cake.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinajournal/20...?mod=yhoofront

Quote:

In South Africa, Chinese is the New Black

A high court in South Africa ruled on Wednesday that Chinese-South Africans in the country will reclassified as ‘black,’ a term that includes black Africans, Indians and others who were subject to discrimination under apartheid. As a result of this ruling, Chinese will be able to benefit from government affirmative action policies aimed at undoing the effects of apartheid.

In 2006, the Chinese Association of South Africa sued the government, claiming that its members were being discriminated against because they were being treated as whites and thus failed to qualify for business contracts and job promotions reserved for victims of apartheid. The association successfully argued that, since Chinese-South Africans had been treated unequally under apartheid, they should be reclassified in order to redress wrongs of the past.

This is not the first time the ethnic status of Chinese in South Africa has changed. In fact, the racial classification of Chinese-South Africans has often shifted with the nation’s political climate and its international relations.

The first significant group of Chinese came to South Africa in the early 20th century, before a formal system of apartheid existed, to work in the gold mines. They were not encouraged to settle permanently and by 1910 almost all the mine workers had been repatriated. Those who remained struggled with racism and lived in separate communities based on language, culture and socio-economic status.

As apartheid took hold with the ascendancy of the Afrikaner government in the late 1940s, the Chinese were classified as ‘colored,’ forced to live apart from whites, and were denied educational and business opportunities along with the right to vote. But after South Africa established an economic alliance with Taiwan in the 1970s, Taiwanese immigrants were welcomed as “honorary whites,” and other Chinese in South Africa began to be treated more like whites. Although they never attained the formal “honorary white” status of Taiwanese, Koreans and Japanese in South Africa and couldn’t vote, Chinese-South Africans were no longer required to use segregated facilities, and in the early 1980s they were exempted from some of the discriminatory laws that applied to other non-whites.

Since the apartheid ended in the early 1990s, the ethnic status of Chinese has remained in a gray area, though they’ve generally been lumped together with whites and denied the post-apartheid benefits available to other non-white ethnic groups.

Since 1994, South Africa has seen waves of immigrants and investment from China, and today there are as many as 300,000 Chinese living in the South Africa. But the new court decision is unlikely to benefit most of them or trigger another mass migration– it applies only to ethnic Chinese who were South African citizens before 1994 (and their descendants), a much smaller number of around 10,000 to 12,000.

-Sky Canaves

What I find the most interesting in all of this is that in the West especially, we are all so obsessed with race, in particularly the black and white binary, although Hispanics (not a race!!) are gaining attention. So, in all of this nonsense, a rather large group (Asians) seems to have disappeared in the national (global?) conversation on race.

So what do you think? Is this ridiculous to classify Chinese as black? What about Japanese or Koreans? Were the Chinese "screwed" by Apartheid? The whole thing just seems rather arbitrary and ill-thought out in the first place.

Why is this so difficult? Do you perceive race differently? Do you care? Similar things have occurred in the US too.

Willravel · 06-19-2008, 07:40 PM

"Yellow is the new Black"

blahblah454 · 06-19-2008, 07:56 PM

*blinks stupidly*

Baraka_Guru · 06-19-2008, 08:13 PM

This is mostly for political (and economic) reasons. I imagine they want non-White status more than they want Black status. I've never been a victim of apartheid, so I can't really comment with any real substance.

jorgelito · 06-19-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

This is mostly for political (and economic) reasons. I imagine they want non-White status more than they want Black status. I've never been a victim of apartheid, so I can't really comment with any real substance.

Sure, I think that is pretty clear. I guess what's odd/shocking to me is the whole thing of it (in and of itself).

I think the broader question or discussion is the notion of race and how it applies in general. How we focus too narrowly on just black and white only to overlook the wider spectrum. I think then, we realize how silly and ridiculous the whole notion is. Especially since in this case it has come around full circle and then some.

Manic_Skafe · 06-19-2008, 08:26 PM

Absurdism

The Faba · 06-19-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

In 2006, the Chinese Association of South Africa sued the government, claiming that its members were being discriminated against because they were being treated as whites and thus failed to qualify for business contracts and job promotions reserved for victims of apartheid.

What this line tells me is that it's okay to descriminate against whites, but not anyone else. I realize that the situation is different compared to the United States (Who's government mandated racial segregation ended long ago) in that South Africa's racist attitude legally ended in the 1990's... but still it annoys me when 'minorities' get preferential treatment over the 'majority'. ('Cause, you know, that fits the definition of racism perfectly, giving one race preferential treatment over another.)

Even though the South African version of affirmative action is infinitely more justified than the United States version (As the people who've practiced segregation with malicious intent rather than by law) as said people are still alive. But that doesn't stop 'whites' whom have never thought ill of other races from being punished for the crimes of their fellow color sharing humans.

Maybe people should stop worrying about 'getting even' and treat all races as equals instead of constantly giving benefits to one side or the other.

Down with affirmative action.

Manic_Skafe · 06-19-2008, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fabalicious

Down with affirmative action.

As it's always easier to tear it down than to build it up, do you care to propose another solution that benefits all the parties involved?

Hint: There's no right answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fabalicious

Maybe people should stop worrying about 'getting even' and treat all races as equals instead of constantly giving benefits to one side or the other.

Alright, we'll start tomorrow. Deal?

Baraka_Guru · 06-20-2008, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Faba

What this line tells me is that it's okay to descriminate against whites, but not anyone else.

You may not have heard of the term before, but this can be related to the White crisis of identity. It suggests that Whiteness is in crisis because of a lack of any clear or positive set of identifying characteristics. What is meant by non-positive is that the only understandable way of identifying Whiteness is as a race to which all other races are compared. This is a huge problem for all non-White races, socially, politically, culturally, and in the name of human rights. But the stumbling block for all parties is this very notion that we don't really know what Whiteness is. It isn't a state of being, it is a state of non-being. The Chinese in this case didn't want to be a part of that because that isn't their experience.

The_Jazz · 06-20-2008, 04:26 AM

I guess I'm the minority here. I see it as pretty consistent with what they've done in the past:

Quote:

a term that includes black Africans, Indians and others who were subject to discrimination under apartheid

Sounds like a catchall definition to me and nothing that seems worthy of much more than a "that's interesting". It's just the legal way of correcting past wrongs.

That said, The_Faba obviously doesn't recognize an attempt to keep a violent revolution/genocide when he sees it. If the whites in SA had kept the stranglehold they had on the richest economy in Africa after the end of Apartheid, the poor would have revolted. As it is, there are still issues from time to time.

I hope Healer and/or Mandy wander by this thread soon.

DaveOrion · 06-20-2008, 07:21 AM

I think what The Faba seems to saying is that the new regime in power has set things up so that non-whites have more opportunities than whites. Since the former white regime committed so many atrocities towards non-whites, turn around is fair play. Instead of a system thats fair to all, they have a system where whites are at the bottom. Seems fair to me, payback is a bitch.

snowy · 06-20-2008, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I hope Healer and/or Mandy wander by this thread soon.

They're kinda busy planning a wedding at the moment, but I certainly hope one of them pops by and weighs in.

I feel it's impossible for me to really comment on something like this, given that I don't live in SA and didn't have to suffer or watch others suffer under apartheid. For someone my age, here in the United States, apartheid is a fuzzy memory at best. But like Jazz, I think this is an attempt, at the very least, to right past wrongs.

The_Jazz · 06-20-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

They're kinda busy planning a wedding at the moment, but I certainly hope one of them pops by and weighs in.

D'oh!!! I forgot.

Insert facepalm picture here.

FoolThemAll · 06-20-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Instead of a system thats fair to all, they have a system where whites are at the bottom. Seems fair to me, payback is a bitch.

Revenge is for children.

Nisses · 06-20-2008, 09:28 AM

DaveOrion:

That's not gonna solve anything now is it?

jorgelito · 06-20-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

You may not have heard of the term before, but this can be related to the White crisis of identity. It suggests that Whiteness is in crisis because of a lack of any clear or positive set of identifying characteristics. What is meant by non-positive is that the only understandable way of identifying Whiteness is as a race to which all other races are compared. This is a huge problem for all non-White races, socially, politically, culturally, and in the name of human rights. But the stumbling block for all parties is this very notion that we don't really know what Whiteness is. It isn't a state of being, it is a state of non-being. The Chinese in this case didn't want to be a part of that because that isn't their experience.

Nice exposition Baraka, I think it sums it up quite nicely. I think there is a cognitive dissonance associated here with the wider discussion on race in general too. What I am trying to drive at in a weird roundabout way is pointing out certain aspects of the great race debate that bears study.

1. Breaking down black and white
2. Looking beyond phenotypes
3. Race, ethnicity, or culture? Determinants of social interaction
4. From manifest destiny (age of imperialism, colonialism) to independence and globalisation.
5. Institutionalized racism and the subconscious hierarchal ranking of race and ethnicity

The OP was kind of a trigger piece in that it was sort of wacky and involves elements of the aforementioned points.

Yeah, I was hoping Healer and Mandy would stop by too along with Sapiens and Abaya.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

They're kinda busy planning a wedding at the moment, but I certainly hope one of them pops by and weighs in.

I feel it's impossible for me to really comment on something like this, given that I don't live in SA and didn't have to suffer or watch others suffer under apartheid. For someone my age, here in the United States, apartheid is a fuzzy memory at best. But like Jazz, I think this is an attempt, at the very least, to right past wrongs.

I disagree. Of course you can comment on this. You are educated and informed and can formulate your own opinion. It's not all about Apartheid either, but more so about race and how we perceive that in general. You work with kids right? You must have observed their behaviour, especially in social group settings. How do they interact? how do they perceive their peers and their environment? Do they respond differently to gender and ethnic characteristics? If so, where did they learn that?

Something like that.

DaveOrion · 06-20-2008, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nisses

DaveOrion:

That's not gonna solve anything now is it?

Nisses: Have you ever heard of sarcasm???

snowy · 06-20-2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I disagree. Of course you can comment on this. You are educated and informed and can formulate your own opinion. It's not all about Apartheid either, but more so about race and how we perceive that in general. You work with kids right? You must have observed their behaviour, especially in social group settings. How do they interact? how do they perceive their peers and their environment? Do they respond differently to gender and ethnic characteristics? If so, where did they learn that?

Something like that.

The kids with I work with largely ignore race and gender. The majority of them went to a fairly diverse, gender-neutral Montessori school in the area, and have parents of higher education levels than most--it certainly shapes how they see the world. I live in a fairly white town, but the kids I work with certainly have friends from all ethnic groups, and treat them all equally.

06-19-2008, 08:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	This is mostly for political (and economic) reasons. I imagine they want non-White status more than they want Black status. I've never been a victim of apartheid, so I can't really comment with any real substance. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-19-2008, 08:26 PM	#6 (permalink)
Manic_Skafe More Than You Expect Location: Queens	Absurdism __________________ "Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

06-20-2008, 07:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I think what The Faba seems to saying is that the new regime in power has set things up so that non-whites have more opportunities than whites. Since the former white regime committed so many atrocities towards non-whites, turn around is fair play. Instead of a system thats fair to all, they have a system where whites are at the bottom. Seems fair to me, payback is a bitch. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

06-20-2008, 09:28 AM	#15 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	DaveOrion: That's not gonna solve anything now is it? __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

06-19-2008, 07:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	"Yellow is the new Black"

06-19-2008, 07:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	blinks stupidly