Cynthetiq

Really? You can actually in your heart of hearts link these violent crimes with presidential actions? Amazing.

EDIT: nevermind, I just saw your post in the Meet the Press: Tim Russert passes away it speaks tomes of your state of being.

To those that think she's a harmless old lady... so what. Think of the precedent this sets and allowing the release of some of the worst criminals if they become terminally ill. If that isn't a frivilous use of the court systems. Hell, maybe if they are denied, her lawyer will pony up something like "cruel and unsual punishment" angle since cancer doesn't feel very good at all....

Dennis Rader, BTK Killer responsible for 10 murders, if he in the future gets some terminal disease, we should let him out in the twilight months of his life.

Joel Rifkin, no cool name, in fact no one would have caught him for a while longer had it not been for the missing license plates on his truck, responsible for 17 murders.

Jeffrey Dahmer who killed 17, converted to Christianity to ask God for forgivness of his sins. Had he not been killed by another inmate, maybe he could have been let out too.

Richard Ramierez, Night Stalker, killed 14 people, maybe he should be let out now because he's Mexican-American.

People think that murderers can be rehabilitated, so there's no Megan's Law when they are paroled. They can live in silence among us, but yet a convicted sex offender (note I did not state child molester since not all are) I have many options of finding out who and where they live. Great.. nice to feel uncomfortable since I have a sex offender (this one a child molester) who lives 3 floors above me.

__________________
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Baraka_Guru

There are regulations and considerations surrounding "compassionate release." I don't think they'd be possible for the worst of the worst.

Can we keep the focus on Susan Atkins' case, or at least compare on the same level? Atkins is hardly Dahmer. How did Dahmer do at his last parole hearing?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

joseph

As long as Sharon Tate is dead, the killer should remain in prison. Let them be released when the victim is no longer dead.

Tully Mars

I was a little younger but remember my dad watching news coverage. I saw the "Manson girls" walking arm in arm to/from(???) court. I asked my dad what were they doing with those girls? He told me "they're going to kill them." A little shocked I asked him "why?" His answer scared the living crap out of me. My mom came running out and told him "you can't tell a kid stuff like that!" He said "Why not? It's the truth."

I read "Helter Skelter" several years later and he was right- it was the truth.

I'm with you. Born again, too young to know better blah, blah freaking blah. Some things you pay for forever, or at least should.

BTW- Host, ever hear the term "one trick pony?" I mean does ever freaking topic have to be turned around to the Bush Ad.?

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host

Again....a huge amount of anger at and condemnation of a harmless husk of a woman, one legged, dying from a cancerous tumor in her brain, who was convicted of killing someone 39 years ago, as a very young adult, while under the influence of a messianic psycopath.

vs....

A curious aversion to taking a position, or discussing, and for many at TFP and in the country, even considering whether we have a mass murdering war criminal in either of the two highest elected offices in the US.

I called this thread as I saw it....majority of posts showing condemnation and bitterness out of proportion for the actual facts.... the woman is harmless, dying....or the authorities will not approve her compassionate release.... at a significant expense to the taxpayers, in a state that is in extreme fiscal crisis, while a spouse of this convict is ready and willing to take her into his custody at his expense....and he is an officer of the court...a person known to the court to be responsible, ethical, his word in court taken as reliable by almost any presiding judge....

So, a reaction here that seems ugly.... on it's face, nonsensical in relation to the personal relationship this woman's crime and circumstances have to any of those who post so vehemently.

Conversely, hundreds of thousands are dead in Iraq.....Tully, I know you get my point...big reaction here, to a tiny problem, even a non-problem....tiny reaction to a mega-problem....it is that the reaction and focus on this inconsequential issue, is huge, and the reaction to the possibility that our country went to war on purpose, avoidably, and unnecessarily....the president's own press secretary has now said that, in writing.....is barely to be seen, in all of TFP, and in 3D America.

We all pick our shots....why are people so worked up about this one....so muted about a huge consequential, on it's face....crime of the new century, contrived, unnecessary war?

I could see, if people demonstrated the capacity to take an unwavering stance of "incarceration until death", as an appropriate, under all circumstances reaction to the possible release of this dying convicted murderer, and still demonstrate a capacity to demand a follow up on Scott McClellan's now revealed opinion that the Iraq war was unneccessary, but that isn't a reaction that is being voiced.....anywhere.

The stern, resolute,reaction to whether or not to release a dying, elderly crippled murderer, vs. the non-reaction to waging unneccessary, aggressive war, is confusing, if the reaction here is related to a sense of justice, and not confusing, if the disconnect is part of a possible explanation as to how the war could have happened, and it's origins and motive still gone uninvestigated.

uncle phil

wow...that could have been me...never would have thought of the juxtaposition to tricky dick and spiro...let her die for all the deaths in vietnam...jeebus freakin' cripes...

host, how old were you when this happened, and what affect did this series of events have on you at that time?

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
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never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

Tully Mars

Actually I'm not that worked up about it at all. I have an opinion, that's pretty much it. I've stated that opinion.

In a small way, very small- I do understand your point.

But not every topic of conversation is about Bush and the war. Where are you going next with this? The titty board? "Hey ya know she's naked. Under our clothes we're all naked. Ya know who else is naked under his clothes- Bush..."

You can make silly comparisons if you wish. But really this thread was about one lady possibly getting released from a life sentence for murder because she has a terminal illness. Comparing this to Bush makes about as much sense as comparing it to the Branch Davidians, maybe less.

I get it- you really, really dislike Bush. I'm not in his fan club either. But there are things in life that are not about him.

__________________
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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

host

I was sixteen....I followed the reporting of the murders closely, we were all fascinated about Manson, the connection with the Beatles song, the Manson "family" at the Spahn ranch, Polanski....his later being accused of underaged sex....avoided return to the US to face charges..... six years later....Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme sticks a gun into president Ford....it failed to fire.....

Sensationalized....hyped....ala "Tanya"....aka kidnapped heiress Patty Hearst, brainwashed by her captors into pariticpating in armed robbery of a bank....Symbionese Liberation army, the Harris's....

The point is....Susan Atkins served 39 years...she was probably as much under the influence of Manson as Patty Hearst was, under the Harris's....Atkins is old, one legged....dying..... the wrath posted here is odd.

The "non-wrath" reaction to a war that has killed six figures worth of innocent people, including 4,100 US troops, is an issue, and a symptom, just as the wrath posted here is.

I was as close to Atkin's crime as anyone my age or older who followed the reporting at the time was. I have no objection to her release, under the circumstances described. She has been cut no specific break by "the system", I doubt many know that the commutation or her sentence to life instead of execution was an automatic result of a US Supreme Court decision that declared the death penalty unconstitutional. When that ruling came. in 1973, every death sentence was commuted to life.

Atkins is not the most heinous murderer, and most posting "let her rot", are influenced by third hand accounts, as they were too young to witness second hand accounts.

The Tate-LaBianco murders took place in the year following the assassinations of Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy, in a year when the Vietnam war was pressing several hundred thousand civilian males into the military, thousands of which would be killed, as they killed a multiple of their own numbers of dead, in numbers of Vietnamese.

That war turned out to be justified by an incident that we found did not even take place....the Gulf of Tonkin attacks on US Navy ships by North Vietnamese naval forces.....

Manson and the girls turned into folklore, and the elected leaders, those responsible for the REAL sensational numbers of lost innocent lives, did it the same way they're doing it now....via contrived, unneccessary war.

It won't stop until we adjust our misplaced sense of focus and outrage. If you want to get worked up about a perceived injustice, posting condemnations of this powerless, walking dead woman is not a sign that you are heading in the right direction.....

I cannot understand the strong reaction, but it is today's America:
The thread turned into a "no mercy" outpouring....IMO, a society with no capacity for mercy....one that reacts in a predictable, hardline fashion, is an ideal setup for supporting, or acting complacently to politicians who decide to wage contrived, aggressive war.

I don't recognize my own countrymen. When did it get so ugly and unforgiving towards the powerless, and so supportive of the most powerful, no matter how much they deceive the supporters and abuse their power.

I missed the part where we turned into who the majority demonstrate that they are now....

Tully Mars

I think she has been shown mercy. Her treatment, to my knowledge, has not been inhumane. I'm not in favor of treating her inhumanely, stated that earlier. I'm not in favor of revenge either. It does not benefit those who seek it nor those that are inflicted by it. I'm in favor of justice. She did some horrible things. She should serve her sentence (I'm actually glad her sentence was commuted, not in favor of my tax dollars going to killing people) however as I stated earlier if her family can pay for her treatment and the state/tax payers could be saved from having that burden, then let her out.

And I don't see her as always being "powerless." At one time she had a knife in her hand and she had all the power. Power over her victims lives as well as her own. She used that power extremely poorly.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Bill O'Rights

She was sentenced to life in prison. Not life -6 months. She may leave prison feet first, on a stainless steel gourney.


You still haven't gotten that cable bill paid?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

highthief

Yup - if judges want to start putting caveats in the sentences they impose (you can leave if you get one or more of the diseases listed in Appendix F) then that would be another issue. But as of right now, she's in there for keeps.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Baraka_Guru

Except ten people were granted compassionate release last year.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

host

BOR and Highthief have posted opinions as iif compassionate release and parole of those swntenced to life in prison in Cal. are not an option granted to others serving life sentences for the crime of murder. Both have been granted to others convicted of the same crime, serving the same sentence....life with the possibility of parole. Neither poster stated why Susan Atkuns, all things considered, is ruled out of eligibility for release. I'm left to think...'she stays in prison because they say so.'

Cynthetiq

I'll state it again.

It is my opinion that I don't think that the others should have sent that precedent. The judges that set that precedent was wrong to do so in overturning the original judge's ruling.

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Tully Mars

Are judges involved or is this solely a decision of the parole board? Or am I completely lost in this conversation now?

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Cynthetiq

I don't know. I made the assumption it is a judge. If it is a whole board, then I disagree with their decision to overturn the judges ruling for punishment.

__________________
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Tully Mars

Well people eligible for parole are released by boards all the time. Sometimes purely for cost or space purposes. That's a whole separate issue. This lady has been repeatedly denied parole. An earlier poster mentioned she's not eligible for parole again until 2009. So I think the only way she gets released prior to 2009 is a "special" medical or mercy release. I don't really care as long as the states not paying for her care. If not she should stay. They didn't seem to think she was parole material any of the other times she was up for it, right?

Basically I'm only in favor of her being released if it saves the tax payers a ton of money and if she's absolutely not a danger to others.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

highthief

And how many weren't? The large majority I would bet.

I don't agree with the concept of "compassionate" early release for someone convicted of murder and I agree with Cynthetiq. She was given life in prison and that is what she should get - there's no rational reason to release her, the arguments are all emotive in nature.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Shauk

Host, how is compassionate release compassionate at all? all she'd realize is the gravity of her actions even more if she ever saw the "ideal" compassionate peaceful scenario, I mean I'm envisioning some caretaker wheeling her out to the beach and having her watch the sun set over the ocean or something, something picturesque as such, if life were perfect poetry, she'd die right then and there at peace, but more than likely they'd put her in some sort of assisted living facility where she'd be undercared for. I've had to clean carpets for a job for a while and that was the target market I hated the most, Most of the time i'd wind up meeting with the owner, some jackass driving a benz while these elderly people are peeing on the floor with minimal assistance with anything, One person there to try to maintain a schedule and make sure they all take their meds at the appropriate meds and aren't starving to death.

Yeah, human fecal matter and urine isn't something I ever want to encounter again in my line of work.

just let her stay in prison.

DaveOrion

The comparisons are obvious Tully, both groups were led by a charismatic yet delusional man who used different types of mind control techniques on their followers. Both men used religious overtones to instill a mindset of fear in their followers, wherein some type of action must be taken to bring about change. Both groups did commit murder, directly related to the teachings of their leader. The main differences only occur after the murders.

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

host

Okay....Tully, under your argument of "if she wasn't parole material at her last parole hearing.....", everyone who is rejected the first time they apply for parole, would be disqualified the subsequent times that they were eligible for a psrole hearing. If you're saying nothing changes in favor of granting parole, in between hearings spaced 3 to 6 years apart....it looks like several things have changed since Atkins last hearing....she lost a leg and contracted a terminal illness shortening her medically diagnosed life expectancy to less than six months, qualifying her to apply for compassionate release....a program designed for inmates in between parole hearing dates.......Cynthetiq, CR release would interfere with her sentence how....since she is not serving a life W/O parole sentence? Are you saying that parole or CR release of anyone serving a life with possibility of parole is interfering with sentencing judge's sentence. A judge had to sign the existing sentence....it is not life W/O parole. BOR....she's served 39 yeqrs, she has a spouse to care for her...pay for her care..he's got a Harvard law degree.... What is behind objections? Why is there such a strong opinion to punish...to death....no matter what....this woman? I want her only to be given what any other convicted murderer in Cal. would be given, in similar circumstances W/O media hyped politics of the crime. She killed how many victims while exhibiting depraved indifference, probably without personal premeditation. Was she the ringleader, was she young and under the influence of a messianic older leader? How has her record been in prison? Was she denied parole last time more because of politics or her own crimes, conduct in prison, lack of convincing remorse and rehab. Is she still considered a threat to society? Has any other terminally ill female convicted of murder who served more than 39 years and has a willing spouse with financial means to assume her care, been denied CR in Cal.? I see your bent for justice it is strong...but it doesn't seem to include an "equal treatment" requirement....so is it even the justice you claim is the reason for throwing away the key, until death. in the case of Atkins?

Tully Mars

Yes you can make comparisons and I understand your opinion here I simply and completely disagree with you. I think the best we can do is agree to disagree and move on.

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DaveOrion

I'm glad to see that you don't feel you need to have the last word.

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Tully Mars

No, often people go up for parole several times before the board rules in their favor, granting them parole. So "everyone who is rejected the first time they apply for parole, would be disqualified the subsequent times that they were eligible for a parole hearing." Is not my position. When the board legally rules in their favor I'm not usually opposed to their release. Though I don't think I would have favored her release, which is fine because the board never decided to grant her parole. I'm thinking there might be a reason she was never granted parole.

And I've repeatedly stated I have no problem releasing her as long as she's paying for her own care and is no longer a threat. And I don't see her as a threat. So I think I am agreeing things have changed.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Baraka_Guru

Fifty weren't, but I think some of them died during the processing. Of course it's the majority, this is an uncharacteristic release condition. But 10 out of 60 isn't an insignificant number, considering.

A rational reason would be to offer it as a conditional parole release so that she can die in the care of her family, rather than at the cost of the state.

She's been recommended for this release by the prison, and the prosecuting lawyer has nothing against it.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

highthief

Why do I doubt that she has the funds available to pay for the various drugs and care she would need in her final days? I don't fully understand the US medical system, but I presume there is some basic level of medicare - and so the taxpayer may still be burdened.

And, having said all that, I would imagine if you asked the taxpayers if they want her released, most would say "no".

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Tully Mars

As previously pointed out she's married. Her husband is a Ivy law school grad and my guess is she may not have the funds but her husband probably does.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Bill O'Rights

Perhaps it's less about Susan Atkins being ruled out of eligibility because I say so, and more about the others shouldn't have been granted a compasionate release in the first place. She just happens to be under the spotlight due to the high profile crime that she commited. I should pity her for that? I don't think so.

Besides...who is going to assume the cost of her medical treatment? Odds are good that it's the state. So, she might as well just stay where the hell she is and continue to receive her treatment there.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

lotsofmagnets

i was going to stay out of this thread but then read host´s holier-than-thou contributions and i couldn´t be any more articulate than this response by BOR so i´m +1ing it

__________________
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she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

highthief

I can't help but think this "compassion" is due largely because she is a "little old lady".

Unfortunately, Sharon Tate never got to be a little old lady. And her child never drew breath at all. Because of Susan Atkins.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Baraka_Guru

Maybe, maybe not. I'm hoping a lot of it has to do with her condition and also her in-prison behavour.

Whoa, appeal to emotion. Not bad, but this shouldn't factor into this case because Atkins' trial already dealt with this. The trial already factors into the release consideration. Everything does. Either way, this comment does little but mislead from the core issues.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

DaveOrion

For me the fact that she's a woman has alot to do with it, men are 10 times more likely to kill than a woman & are more likely to kill again. Women who commit murder rarely kill again. Given her age and medical condition the likelihood that she'd kill again is almost nil.

The circumstances of the original murders & the control that Manson had over her is also a factor. Young, naive, drugged & brainwashed sums it up for me.

Either way her last months will be full of suffering, inside prison or out. The only possible reason the keep her in these last months of her life is revenge for her crimes, thats not justice, not even close. As I said before, she's paid all that she can, now she will die. What more do you want???

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Bill O'Rights

I don't think that it misleads from the core issue, so much as it definately needs to factor into it. If this were Charlie himself that we were talking about...this thread never would've gotten to two pages. His death in prison is, and should be, a foregone conclusion. Why is Atkins any different? Because she's a woman? An old woman? A frail sickly old woman? Talk about appeal to emotion.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Baraka_Guru

I never appealed to emotion that way. Instead, I suggested that (though it may have been misread) her age, lack of a leg, and her medical condition renders her rather harmless. Her status as a woman factors little, or at least it should. Atkins is different because Manson is beyond compare, for a number of reasons.

This appeal shouldn't factor in because this isn't about feeling sorry for the lost potential of the victims. This is about Atkins' eligibility and candidacy for a special release term, which isn't too far beyond parole (of which she is eligible). Yes, she is a convicted murderer, but her behaviour over the past several years—in addition to the opinions and recommendations of involved professionals—is also an important factor for this particular case. Let's all leave emotional appeals aside.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

highthief

Eactly.


The odds of most male killers killing again in their 60s or 70s is pretty tiny also, statistically - don't see anyone making petitions saying let all the seniors out of jail.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Tully Mars

I don't know of any petitions but there are many agencies out there looking for a way to reduce the aging inmate population. I know there is a DOJ report out there somewhere but can't find a link. Bottom line is keeping elderly inmates in prison is down right costly. I did find this on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisons...d_States#Aging


The percentage of prisoners in federal and state prisons 55 and older increased by 33% from 2000 to 2005 while the prison population grew by only 8%. The Southern Legislative Conference found that in 16 southern states the elderly prisoner population increased on average by 145% between 1997 and 2007. The growth in the elderly population brought along higher health care costs, most notably seen in the 10% average increase in state prison budgets from 2005 to 2006. The SLC expects the percentage of elderly prisoners relative to the overall prison population to continue to rise. Ronald Aday, a professor of aging studies at Middle Tennessee State University and author of Aging Prisoners: Crisis in American Corrections, concurs. One out of six prisoners in California is serving a life sentence. Aday predicts that by 2020 16% percent of those serving life sentences will be elderly.

Under U.S. law convicted felons lose their eligibility to apply for Medicare and Medicaid. Housing one prisoner costs a state between $18,000 and $31,000 annually, $33 per day for the average prisoner and $100 per day for an elderly prisoner. Most DOCs report spending more than 10 percent of the annual budget on elderly care. State governments pay all of their inmates' housing costs which significantly increase as prisoners age

The aging prison population is a huge burden on correctional depts. They would like nothing more then to release as many of these folks as possible. I'd like to hope they'd only release those they sincerely thought were no longer a threat. But then I'd also like to think beer makes me better looking and funnier. Bottom line is these compassion releases are largely driven by dollars and not sense.

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UKking

Release denied for dying Manson follower

Tully Mars

Meh, I'll sleep the same anyway.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

JumpinJesus

There's no basis for denying this? How about your client is a convicted murderer who was sentenced to death and had it commuted to life.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Baraka_Guru

It's not the same attorney, is it?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot