silent_jay

..

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Willravel

People eat meat out of necessity. Seems simple enough, right?

Then why don't we eat humans? It's generally considered wrong to eat an intelligent species because it's believed that their intellect affords them certain inalienable rights to life. Many marine mammals, including seals, have keen intellects for animals, usually being rated higher than dogs and cats. Most people in the West would think that eating a dog is barbaric, but we actually beat baby seals to death with clubs. Not only that but there are verified reports of dragging conscious seals across the ice floes with boat hooks, shooting seals and leaving them to suffer in agony, stockpiling dead and dying animals, and even skinning seals alive.

There is a reason that most countries have laws about humane killing of animals: torturing animals is wrong.

james t kirk

This Canadian is totally opposed to the seal hunt. But Ill post more about that later.

Strange Famous

As long as they are hunted for meat or some rational and productive use of the corpse, I would have no problem.

If they are being hunted for "sport" I think it is pretty shoddy.

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lotsofmagnets

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physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

silent_jay

My thoughts exactly SF.

Yes I did open the can of worms, but oh well, some things need to be opened, this being one of them, especially protesters who feel the need to violate Canadian laws, and disobey Canadian authorities, they want to stop it, use legal means, don't break our laws and then try and say the RCMP used force because they were made made to heaven forbid, get on the ground. If they had listened to Canadian authorities and went to the nearest Canadian port they would have had no problems, they don't listen, their boat gets boarded, and the Captain and First Officer get arrested as they should have.

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Ustwo

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Willravel

Actually, it's the clubbers that are violating Canadian laws. Hunters have exceeded the Canadian government's quota for years, often by tens of thousands of seals. In 2002, the Canadian government knowingly allowed sealers to exceed the quota by more than 37,000 animals. The problem is that the government is lax on the hunters but hard on the protestors, which gives the illusion that it's the protestors alone that are bad.

silent_jay

Read what the Farley Mowat did, they broke laws associated with the hunt, which means.......they violated Canadian laws. Hunters are doing what they have done for hundreds of years.

Guess we just let these people what? Sell ice?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Ca...cial_Seal_Hunt

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Willravel

Hunters don't need to skin their prey alive. That's torture and it's wrong.

james t kirk

They are hunted purely for their pelts.

There is no market for the carcass whatsoever. The bodies of the dead baby seals are discarded into the sea. Not even the pet food manufacturers want the meat (for free).

Sealers are paid $35.00 per pelt.

Pro-sealers often make the arguement that it is no different than eating beef or pork. The fact of the matter it is different because these are wild animals, not animals raised on a farm, and the seals are not eaten, they are killed strictly for their hides at roughly age 12 days to 21 days.

The entire thing is a national embarassment motivated by politics frankly. For all the money the Canadian Government spends for ice breakers, security, towing, and the DFO, it would be cheaper just to pay the drunkards who go out bashing in the heads of baby seals to sit home and drink beer.

As far as I am concerned, the Anti-Seal Hunt Protestors have every bit as much the right to protest their convictions at the very least. While no one would advocate a giant fist fight on the ice between sealers and protestors, I don't think the government should have the right to arrest the protestors.

silent_jay

The protesters were arrested for breaking the law, not protesting, does the government not have the right to arrest them then?

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Willravel

You've not addressed this:

filtherton

Isn't animal torture usually a red flag for serious serial killer potential?

Maybe instead of torturing animals for money, the sealers could sell the opportunity to torture tourists to wealthy businesspeople. Or maybe the sealers could set up really horrible, convoluted choices and force each other to choose between them as a way of answering for some previous moral transgression. I think I saw that in a movie once.

Willravel

Antisocial personality disorder.

silent_jay

Addressed what? JTK's opinion? Or were you looking for something like this?
Seal hunting, or sealing, is the personal or commercial hunting of seals for their pelts, blubber, and meat; as well as to ensure the population does not reach levels that would threaten other species. The hunt is practiced in five countries: Canada, where most of the world's seal hunting takes place, as well as Greenland, Namibia, Norway, and Russia. Seal hunting is an important source of income and food in small coastal communities where other opportunities are limited.

There I put the relevant parts in bold, I see pelts, blubber, meat, sufficiently addressed?

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james t kirk

Exactly what law did they break?

The right to protest?

Last time I checked, we live in a democracy and that right is guaranteed in the Charter. The most the anti-seal protesters were going to do was video tape the slaughter. Why does the government feel the need to prevent such footage from getting out? Answer, because it would disgust any normal human being.

No, they were arrested for political reasons.

Loyola Hearn (Fisheries Minister in Harper's Gov't) is from NFLD. For one outdated reason or another, a lot of Newfoundlanders hold the seal hunt near and dear to their hearts. Hearn is simply pandering to his electorate, calling the protestors "gutless" and "money sucking manipulators" The conservative government in Ottawa is hoping to pick up votes in NFLD.

Also, the Coast Guard recently screwed up royally towing in a broken down sealing boat resulting in the deaths of 4 sealers. The public on the east coast was asking a lot of questions. Nice manouvre to deflect criticism of the coast guard (also under Hearn's jurisdiction).

They called in the RCMP tactical squad to arrest a bunch of volenteers who feel strongly about protecting animals.

silent_jay

Now the sealers trying to make a living have a personality disorder? So far their drunkards and psycho's, this thread is going to go great

Nope they were charged with:
They were charged with contraventions of the Marine Mammal Regulations (MMR), on getting too close to the hunt without an observer permit. Captain Alexander Cornelissen was also charged under the Fisheries Act, for obstructing or hindering a Fishery Officer, a fishery guardian or an inspector.

See nothing about the right to protest, they broke the rules, should we have not arrested them and just let them continue to breat the rulkes?

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james t kirk

Seals are not eaten.

Maybe you could show me a link to the nearest safeway where I could buy me some seal meat.

Only the Newfoundlanders in St. John's eat seal flipper pies (with lots of curry to kill the taste) as if to prove that you CAN (if you hold your nose) eat seal meat. Nowhere in the rest of the country does ANYONE eat seal meat. With the 400,000 baby seals they kill this year, that's more than enough seal flippers for about 50 years.

filtherton

I'm glad you're here to defend the honor of people who club defenseless animals to death for money. Somebody has to, or else there'd be no discussion.

Is it a simple matter of don't hate the player, hate the game?

silent_jay

They were boarding a ship, do you know the amount of places to hide on a ship? Of course no protester has ever done anything stupid, you see JTK, having the RCMP there is called covering your bases, better to go over-manned than under-manned.

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blahblah454

Sounds like if anyone skins a seal alive, or shoots it and leaves it to suffer will be breaking the law.

What would happen to fish and other species native to the area if those 275,000 seals were not killed?

filtherton

Nature would happen.

silent_jay

Just because you can't buy it at a grocery store doesn't mean it isn't eaten JTK.
You sure about this? Canada is a big country with a lot of people, I reckon you're wrong here, but I guess capitalizing anyone makes it fact.

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blahblah454

Where do humans fall into nature then? Are we not part of it?

And I am not promoting seal hunter, I know hardly anything about it at all. I am just saying that I don't know enough to judge what happens.

What about in the 80's when Alberta hired people to kill all the rats? Was that wrong of us?

silent_jay

Oh you mean over population, yep it sure would.

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Willravel

Ouch, a few mistakes in there.
1) Hunting has nothing to do with overpopulation. As a matter of fact, only 30 years ago the seal hunt nearly killed off the harp seal.
2) There is virtually no market whatsoever for seal meat. Most of the meat is left to rot.
You seem to be out of your element here and as such you're really grasping at straws. Or strawmen, actually. "Psycho" doesn't mean anything. One of the warning signs of antisocial personality disorder is cruelty to animals, like skinning them alive instead of killing them first. Look up zoosadism for more information.

silent_jay

Yes I know about personality disorders, no need for the cracker jack shrink act will.

Opps I'm out of my element, I'll let the great minds of TFP have their thread then, enjoy........

Funny though, I'm the one grasping at straws and you're using a shaky argument to say they have a personality disorder, hilarious.

No market for seal meat? you sure about this? remember the meat doesn't have to be sold to be consumed, it could feed........actually this isn't worth my bother, I'll just join the herd at TFP and condemn this, much easier than arguing facts that no one seems to want to back up.

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Ustwo

I think the difference is the psychos who torture animals do so to cause pain.

A seal hunter just doesn't care.

Much like I don't care if fish feel pain or not while fishing.

Mmmmm fish...

Anyways comparing a seal hunter with a serial killer is a bit disingenuous.

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silent_jay

I don't know what to do, I think I'm on the same side as Ustwo, this is different, but good different I think, any tips for me Ustwo?

They have to compare them with something Ustwo, I guess a serial killer was what would attract the most attention.

I hope the rivers open soon so I can go catch some bass then club the fuckers in the head after they are on shore.

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Willravel

More strawmen. All I did was answer Filtherton's excellent question. I never said that the hunters had APD. What's "hilarious" is that you have to make strawman arguments and try to make yourself and hunters who CLUB BABY SEALS out to be victims. That's fucking hilarious. Oh, those poor grown men beating defensless, adorable animals that they aren't even going to eat.

silent_jay

Well I guess if will says it's a strawman argument it must be so, making myself out to be a victim, now that's fuckin hilarious will, I guess me giving my opinion is me making myself out to be a victim, what a fuckin joke.

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telekinetic

First of all,

Second of all, I've got no problems with current seal hunting methods. From a strictly pragmatic perspective, the seal pelt industry has pretty intense financial pressure to keep populations at sustainable levels, or they'll be out of business.

*shrug*

I'm really REALLY not trying to threadjack here, but once there are no people starving to death or being shot at or genocided, then maybe I'll get worked up about some people making a living hunting small mammals.

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Willravel

Silent Jay, quote in this thread the place where I said that the hunters have APD. Then I'll post every place where you tried to make hunters who BEAT BABY SEALS TO DEATH WITH A STICK out to be victims.

silent_jay

My fuckin christ, read the words in front of you will, not what you think you see, I see why Ustwo gets frustrated. You said:
I said:
Get it? I want to see where I was making myself out to be a victim. I even added some bold letters for you to see. Clear enough, or shall I draw you a picture?

Will capitalizing doesn't make your point get across any better, IN FACT IT'S REALLY FUCKIN ANNOYING HAVING SOMEONE TYPE AT ME IN CAPITAL LETTERS BECAUSE THEY THINK IT MAKES THEIR ARGUMENT MORE CONVINCING.

No threadjack at all, some people just see the important things in life and some like to dwell on the small like baby seals getting bonked on the head, I choose to look at the bigger issues as well.

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james t kirk

I'm more worried about 6 billion people than 5 million seals. There's over population and then there's over population.

silent_jay

I feel the same way, much like I'm more concerned with the killing of innocent people around the world than I am about seals, but we all have different priorities I suppose.

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debaser

Eat me...

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Willravel

- Beating them to death with a club? Isn't there a better way?
- Skinning alive?
- Baby seals?

If you absolutely need to kill them, why not do it in a humane manner? Why not use the stun guns that they use on cattle? Why not farm them? If this was a real market, then it would allow the types of policies that Dr. Temple Grandin instituted in the US about cattle be made into law?

No, this is about clubbing seals, not about feeding families, not about pelts, and definitely not about food.

The_Jazz

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