Willravel

Cynth, any car that runs on biodiesel can run on regular diesel (which is available in any town, city, or along any highway), so that's a non-issue. I can name a dozen diesel selling gas stations in my neighborhood alone. And when California starts allowing auto manufacturers to sell diesel cars again, that number is going to increase.

Cynthetiq

right, because diesel is SOooooooOOO much cheaper than regular unleaded. Truckers are so happy to pay that low premium.

Your point about the biodiesel is that it's a cheaper alternative. I removed using diesel from the equation since it's an apples with apples comparison.

__________________
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Willravel

It's more efficient, which more often than not compensates for the higher price. In addition to that, most diesel cars have better emissions than gas cars now. It's an exciting time to drive a diesel.
Locate that statement in this thread. It's better, not cheaper.
Because there's a biogas station nearby? Common, you can do better than that.

Cynthetiq

No it's not. We don't burn the same diesel that Europe does. It's getting better but it's not the same as the diesels I drive in Germany.

Again, you're the one that stated that you can get your biodiesel wherever. I contend that the infrastructure isn't in place for EVERYONE to get it easily.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

The cars burn it better, I never said the quality of the diesel was better. What's with you and strawmen today?
And another strawman. I said you can get diesel anywhere. I can get biodiesel around the corner. That's convenient for me. I'm not marketing biodiesel to others, I'm saying it's a good option for me.
No and it likely never will because we consume too much fuel period to have an actual replacement for gas be it ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen, or pixy-dust. All we can do is bring together as many decent alternatives as possible and hope that someone reinvents the light bulb when it comes to fuel. For me, personally, biodiesel is a damn good alternative. It probably isn't for you.

genuinegirly

From my experience:

Biodiesel definitely isn't available anywhere. It is only found in reasonable distance to "green-concious" metropolitan areas. There are kits out there to make older diesels run off of vegetable oils, though it does require some processing and often isn't worth the hassle.

Fuel efficiency for a new well-designed diesel is contestibly better than hybrid technologies.

Tt bought his diesel because he was looking for the most fuel-efficient vehicle on the market.

The cost of diesel is often 50cents more/gallon than premium gasolene.

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lotsofmagnets

will is right on the mark. the diesel engine was originally designed to be run on anything that will combust and biofuels work just as well as diesel, at least on the vast majority of engines. when the price of petrol 1st started to skyrocket mebe 5-6 years ago i did a lot of research into biofuels and back then it was possible to manufacture it yourself (it is a bit of a hassle) for less than 1/2 the price of diesel fuel. now with the price of oil it will be less than 1/3 of diesel. this gets added to the fuel consumption benefits of a diesel (fuel efficiency is directly related to compression ratio and while petrol powered cars run 8.5-11 to 1 diesels run around 22:1 which means near twice as efficient as the equivalent petrol engine.)

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Willravel

Great post.

Cynthetiq

The cars in Europe burn it even better, they burn it better and cleaner than any diesels here in the US.

If it was such a great thing, then the Euro companies would just ship over their cars as is. But they can't because the cars cannot run on the crappy diesel we have here.

You aren't marketing it to anyone but yourself. Yet your other ills of society are for the whole, suddenly you are only concerned about you and your own? Seriously, WTF is that selfishness? A sharp difference in your viewpoint, from the benefit of everyone to "it's all good for me."

My point is again that until it's a great concept, but there's little practicality in it for the majority at the moment.

__________________
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Willravel

It's a different marketing strategy. Typically liberals try to sell with legitimate statistics that go ignored. I prefer modeling reality. It's harder to ignore. As to what I'm modeling? Find your own alternative. Biodiesel works for me. Riding a bike might work for you. While there's not enough biodiesel to help everyone, there's a lot more out there than what's being utilized now. It's the same for all the alternatives. People use the "it can't replace oil" bullshit as an excuse. It can be an alternative, one among many.

Cynthetiq

so wait, when you do it, it's a different marketing strategy, when I do it it's a strawman.

__________________
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Willravel

1) You clearly don't know what strawman means
2) You're not Ustwo, and it's even getting old when he does it.

blahblah454

Currently in Calgary gas prices are 1.189 a liter, this equals 4.50 per gallon. I love driving in the states! Gas prices seem so cheap there!

Willravel

The price is in liberal guilt!

blahblah454

I have no idea what that even means Will...

As far as this affecting me: I hardly drive to school anymore (its about a 30km drive... or 17 for you yanks!), I take the bus/train as often as possible, or drive to the station and then take the train. I cut down from filling up twice a week to a little more often than every other week.

When at the girlfriends we never drive anywhere anymore, we now just walk to where we want to go, or take the train. It makes it more fun anyways, a nice walk beats driving any day.

filtherton

I spend $64 a semester for an unlimited-ride transit pass. I'm not sure the mpg I get from it, but I think it's pretty good, especially given the electric light rail trains and the transit authority's steady conversion to hybrid buses.

Unfortunately, the early 90's buick that we drive to day care and for other miscellaneous errands gets pretty shitty mileage. Good thing the weather's warming up. Our next car will probably be either a hybrid or a diesel, provided HCCI's aren't feasible yet (assuming they ever will be).

Willravel

People like me (liberalas sapiens) like to make people that drive gigantic SUVs feel guilty for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Arabs and thousands of soldiers in oil. And we worship at the church of Al Gore.

host

The thread question, more aptly should be....how is the declining purchasing power of the US dollar, affecting you? The rising price of fuel is a reaction to the declining valuation of some of the world's paper currencies. Gasoline has barely risen in price, if purchased today in eruos, compared to in 2002. Gasoline is cheaper now than in 2002, if purchased with gold or silver.

I bought a small roll of Kleenex brand paper towels that cost 95 cents recently, and the price yesterday was $1.12. I think this is only the beginning of a period of dollar purchasing power decline, for everyday goods. The dollar will buy more house, more NYSE and Nasdaq stock shares, and more low fuel mileage vehicles, but that has more to do with declining demand, than it does dollar valuation.

I am surprised that the dollar has not dropped in value more deeply and more rapidly. Since last september, the Federal Reserve has lowered short term interest rates from 5-1/2 percent, to 2-1/4 percent, with the expectation of further reductions. The short term interest rate is now half the level of the euro rate.

The only answer is fuel conservation in the US. Even with the slowing economy, the US borrowed $63 billion, instead of the expected $59.5 billion, for one month's purchase of imports. We're using 25 percent of the world's total daily petroleum production, with just 6 per cent of world population. We import 2/3 of the 22 million bbl petroleum equivalents that we consume here each and every day. We only produce 1/3 of what we use, and we borrow the money to import the rest. US petroleum production peaked at 10.6 million bbls per day, 36 years ago, and our society went right on consuming it as if we still produced the bulk of what we use, here.

There will be periods of lower gasoline prices, with lessening demand coming due to high prices and deep recession, higher unemployment, less demands for transport of goods, but the trend is now established. The conservation mindset and commitment is still to come, and it will be resisted, and a catalyst for a huge change in the way that we live. Houses in neighborhoods located further from jobs will lose value, and homes nearer to jobs and shopping and amusements will increase in value. The northern US population will move south in even greater numbers.

Food and consumer goods will continue to rise in price, and income will not keep up. Suburban development (sprawl), fast food industry, and tourism were all planned and built with no allowance for expensive motor fuel, and no money was allocated for mass transit buildout, compared to highways and vehicle bridges. Now we'll get to experience the consequences of such narrow thinking and lack of flexibility in design and allocation of development resources.

It's probably a good time to start a new business selling or offering motorcycle operation instruction.

Ustwo

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Just walk away.

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blahblah454

host, how does this fit in with Canada then? We produce vast amounts of petroleum, export tons as well, and have a rising dollar value. And yet we pay more for food, housing, gas, every thing costs more here.

Willravel

Ustwo, were those hybrid flame throwers?

Ustwo

E85

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

host

Average US & State combined tax at the pump for a US gallon of gasoline is .47 US per gallon, in Canada, you pay nearly $1.20 US for just less than 4 liters of gasoline!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Canada

You also enjoy a balance of trade surplus and a federal budget surplus. The US will go $1.5 trillion deeper in debt in the 12 months ending 9/30/08 in those two combined items....trade balance and federal budget. That is why your currency is so strong. You better seek a new principle trade partner though, because we're borrowing the money we pay for the lumber, petroleum, and other commodities you export to us. We won't be paying back the loans in current value dollars...if at all!

thingstodo

If I wanted a cheap car I would have purchased one. I went from a Lexus ES330 to the Camry. And since you mentioned carbon footprint, you'll need to note that the Camry hybrib carbon footprint is negligable compared to the Geo Metro. And I doubt the Geo really would get 55 mpg.

Good luck finding your bio fuel everywhere you need to be. And I'll bet it will start being made with food if it really got popular because these folks will mmake anything the least expensive way in the big picture posible.

The bottom line is that we have to get off fuel. Europe figured out long ago to make electricity from nucleat power plants. They are light years ahead of us in that regard. Meanwhile we still burn coal. Or corn, which is what your biodiesel will be made from before it's over - if you can find it - and you'll pay even more per gallon.

Almost forgot to mention - anyone that has evr driven a Porche understands it's not about the ride; rather, its about the handling. Putting Porche struts on a Geo at best would give you better handling, not ride. And it would really be like putting a wig on a hooker - just a wasted accessory!

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Stangers have the best candy.

The_Jazz

Hasn't affected me at all. I've changed none of my habits and don't see the need to.

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tisonlyi

Biofuels are an enormous con.

<a href="http://www.physorg.com/news4942.html">They need more input energy than they give in output energy</a>

Crops before WW2 were not produced with the kinds of extremely intensive (petroleum derived) pesticide and fertilizers regimes that have become ever more popular since the end of the war. IIRC crops produced in that manner can be sustainable for biofuels in and of themselves, without taking into consideration the deforestation, etc that normally goes before... So we need to green the Sahara, basically... or wait for it to green itself?

I've read better sources on this issue, but a quick googling gives me this document whose last paragraph tells you that, for US on-farm production in 1977, there were 10 calories input for every 1 calorie output in the food supply. (The second to last paragraph is interesting as well - marketing food consumes 1.8% of total US consumption of energy??? hmm. o_O)

10:1 is a very much understated figure, if memory serves. Figures I've read elsewhere range from 30:1 to 55:1.

Biofuels need enormous amounts of fertilizers and pesticides to be grown in an industrialised manner. The inputs and outputs don't work... Umm.. didn't that even get into an episode of The West Wing once? (The Corn Pledge?)

Oh yes! King Corn - hardly the best of sources, but still.

The price of oil goes up, the price of pesticides, fertilizers and the fuel to move produce around goes up, hence the price of basic commodities sky-rockets... Including... Biofuels!

Anything that depends on cheap oil in it's production cannot be an alternative to cheap oil.

All of this, really, is back to Peak Oil.

Solar, wind and nuclear - mostly nucular ( ) as it stands - are the only options available to conserve the remaining cheaply accessible fossil fuels we have as a means of producing plastics, fertilizers and pretty much all of our oil-dependent products... won't happen though.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Baraka_Guru

You bring up some good points, but this is an overstatement. You haven't convinced me to give up on what is an emerging technology.

You leave out some important details. Switchgrass has low fertilization and herbicide requirements, for starters, and it's a hardy perennial with a complex and well-established root system, to boot. Also, some have found ways of getting 4 units of energy output for every 1 unit of input.

For years, it was ridiculously expensive to extract oil from the tar sands in Alberta. Almost not worth it. But they've developed the technology to make it more viable and rewarding (though the environmental factors are questionable). Canada is now poised to be the next Saudi Arabia. Hoser Canadia?

I believe the same could be done with biofuels. I wouldn't give up so easily.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Willravel

Didn't you buy a Camry?
You doubt wrong! Or something like that. Good buddy of mine regularly gets about 53 mpg with his 1.3L Metro.
I can use biodiesel when I'm near home and regular diesel if I travel.
It probably won't ever get too popular, but as I said before there's more biodiesel out there than what's currently being used by a large margin. In other words, even if use of biodiesel rises considerably, they won't be dipping into food any time soon.
I don't think having nuclear rods in my car would be safe. Either you're talking about electric cars (which I support) or you're not taking transportation into consideration.
Oh comon, you knew i was kidding. The point I was making is that you could get way better than 43 mpg (what the average Camry Hybrid gets) and not have to spend much at all.

lotsofmagnets

and in the near future we´ll have take that con and drive with it. unless you prefer to walk. then you can leave it

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Plan9

I traded my Chevrolet Colorado (21 MPG) for a Pontiac Vibe (34 MPG).

Due to my daily commute to college, gas prices were a huge slice of my monthly budget pie. Not anymore. I like my dorky little station wagon plenty.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

SHOW US THE BEAST!

Seriously. Gotta put some dubs on your whip, homes.

Cynthetiq

I thought that iceland was moving towards a hydrogen vehicle system. Biofuels still is an import to Iceland isn't it?

Of course if one could harness the steam energy.... we could be all like Steamboy!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

lotsofmagnets

i know of a solitary station on the way to mosó that sells hydrogen fuel. haven´t seen any biofuels here but i also haven´t been looking. i´ll keep an eye out. there *may* be something to do this the busses but i´m not sure.

__________________
mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor.
she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

Plan9

What about your vagina-massaging Eclipse, Mr. Ravel? DO IT.

Where is the action on your promise of a oh-so-humble Geo Metro?

...

Solo commuters using SUVs 7 days a week? Gas crisis? No kidding!

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

You've got it. As soon as I get home from work (and immediately back on the phone, ain't work grand?).

Oh my god look behind you!! *runs*

Martian

You traded in the Colorado? Never saw that one coming.

Iceland is in a bit of a unique position energy-wise that makes hydrogen a more viable solution for them than it is elsewhere.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Jinn

My cost-of-living (rent, car, insurance, utilities, cable, food) is one half of my salary. Thereby, the high cost of gas might be cutting into my discretionary spending, but I'd be hard to measure the effect of gas prices in the standard of measure, video games. I'm probably about .5 video games poorer than I was when gas was cheaper. I get about 28 MPG, I think.

That said, I do have empathy for those who feel the crunch. I'd offer to drive them around, but my car only holds 2.5 people comfortably.

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MSD

1: Imperial gallons and US gallons aren't the same thing
2: A lot of our major metropolitan areas are as far apart as your country is long and it isn't practical to build public transportation unless we're going to double everyone's tax rates.
3: What portion of your fuel cost is tax?

Martian

I would argue that the .5 person wouldn't be very comfortable at all.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

abaya

Eh, 2 or 3 buses in the ENTIRE COUNTRY run on hydrogen from that very fancy hydrogen stop by Nói Sírius... it's really just for show. The rest of the country drives around in the usual gas-guzzling manner, with their Hummers and god knows what else. Tell me why this tiny nation needs a STRETCH LIMO HUMMER to cruise down Laugavegur?!

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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