Bully at the Office? Boss is a bully? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 03-25-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Source: NYtimes.com
View: When the Bully Sits in the Next Cubicle

Video montage

March 25, 2008
Well
When the Bully Sits in the Next Cubicle
By TARA PARKER-POPE
An eye roll, a glare, a dismissive snort — these are the tactics of the workplace bully. They don’t sound like much, but that’s why they are so insidious. How do you complain to human resources that your boss is picking on you? Who cares that a co-worker won’t return your phone calls?

Bullying in the workplace is surprisingly common. In a survey released last fall, 37 percent of American workers said they had experienced bullying on the job, according to the research firm Zogby International.

Unlike the playground bully, who often resorts to physical threats, the work bully sets out on a course of constant but subtle harassment. It may start with a belittling comment at a staff meeting. Later it becomes gossip to co-workers and forgetting to invite someone to an important work event. If the bully is a supervisor, victims may be stripped of critical duties, then accused of not doing their job, says Gary Namie, founder of the Workplace Bullying Institute, an advocacy group based in Bellingham, Wash.

This month, researchers at the University of Manitoba reported that the emotional toll of workplace bullying is more severe than that of sexual harassment. And in today’s corporate culture, supervisors may condone bullying as part of a tough management style.

But the tide may be turning, thanks in part to a best-selling book by Robert I. Sutton, a management professor and co-director of the Center for Work, Technology and Organization at Stanford. Among other things, the book argues that workplace bullies are bad for business, because they lead to absenteeism and turnover.

The New York State Legislature is considering an antibullying bill, and in several other states, including New Jersey and Connecticut, lawmakers have introduced such measures — without success so far. A measure was withdrawn in Connecticut last week after business groups opposed it, although the bill is expected to be resubmitted.

Business groups often argue that existing laws are adequate to protect workers. But bullying generally does not involve race, age or sex, which have protected status in the courts. Instead, most workplace hostility occurs just because someone doesn’t like someone else.

“Many of these situations fall between the cracks of existing state and federal employment law,” said David C. Yamada, a professor at the Suffolk University Law School in Boston, who has drafted antibullying legislation. “There is a real gap in the law that someone could be tormented and subjected to humiliation and really be suffering because of it, but the courts are saying it’s not severe enough for us to allow the lawsuit to go forward.”

The antibullying bills are often referred to as “healthy workplace” legislation. The name is more palatable to businesses, but they also acknowledge the serious health toll bullying can have. Some victims become physically ill from the stress, with depression, anxiety and even symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder. Surveys also suggest that victims of office bullies call in sick more often — although it’s not clear whether they really are sick or just avoiding the abusive environment at work.

A surprising number of bullying cases involve health care settings, where the problem is said to be endemic, with senior hospital workers, particularly doctors and supervisors, harassing nurses and technicians. The problem is also common in academia and the legal profession, experts say.

A large share of the problem involves women victimizing women. The Zogby survey showed that 40 percent of workplace bullies are women.

This month, more than 300 readers of the Well blog posted their own stories of workplace bullies. One reader shared a story of an assistant manager who became angry with an employee. Despite his high technical skills, she cut off all contact with him.

“She gave this employee totally inappropriate assignments, setting him up to fail, and then punished him when he could not complete the assignments,” said the reader, who asked not to be named. “She eventually did not invite this employee to the Christmas party.” The worker finally quit.

Still, it can be hard to distinguish between normal personality disputes and the incessant torture of workplace bullying.

Researchers at the State University of New York in New Paltz have developed a survey aimed at identifying the full range of behaviors that can constitute bullying. (For a list, go to www.nytimes.com/well.) Some of the behaviors — glaring, failing to return calls, not praising a worker — may seem trivial, but they take a toll when repeated over and over again.

“Imagine yourself sitting at a conference table and you offer something as a suggestion and someone looks at you and shakes their head every time,” said Joel H. Neuman, director of the center for applied management at the SUNY-New Paltz School of Business.

“It can be damaging to be constantly dismissed in front of your peers,” Dr. Neuman said. “The thing that is upsetting about it is that people come to expect it and say, ‘Well, this is what it’s like around here.’ It shouldn’t be part of the culture, but often it is.”

I very much disagree with any sort of legislation. There are already protected classes for discrimination and such, but why a "bully?" There nothing wrong with your boss being an asshole. If he's not being an asshole because you're black, white, gay, woman, etc. Bad bosses abound. There is a fix for it. The company doesn't do well. If it is a large company the checks and balances are HR to figure out that the manager shouldn't be managing. In smaller business this kind of law will hamstring them unduly.

The idea here is that if you don't like your job for WHATEVER reason, go out and find another job.

Willravel · 03-25-2008, 08:53 AM

Steve Jobs is a complete asshole, but Apple's stocks are still strong and their market share keeps rising. Why? He's an asshole that everyone in the company believes is an incarnation of god, so they want to please him.

I've even had to be an asshole from time to time. This is a place where legislation doesn't belong. Unless they're breaking the law, it's up to the company.

Shauk · 03-25-2008, 08:57 AM

I can see where this is coming from, but no legislation is going to change how someone feels about you. it just means they'll stab you in the back with a smile on their face instead of a sneer.

Part of being successful in the workplace is your ability to network/socialize/cohabitate with your management anyways. Thats life.

Glory's Sun · 03-25-2008, 09:00 AM

legislation is stupid in this instance. When will people quit looking to the government to help with their petty issues?

/insert harden the fuck up video(s) here.

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 10:33 AM

I seen a guy who worked at my company be bullied (by my boss) to the point he couldnt sleep, he was having chest pains, he would cry at work... I didnt get bullied because I'm quite aggressive he did and he wasnt the type of person to stand up for himself, he was undermined, pushed around, driven to breaking point... I dont think telling people to toughen up is an attitude I would like my country to take.

People are entitled to some basic protection, it isnt always easy for these people to free themselves. if they were the kind of person to just say "ah screw it" and get another job, they wouldnt bullied in the first place.

I guess all the hard men who want to call the victims of bullying weak and tell them to toughen up are pretty lucky - since they never been a victim of that sort of behaviour.

Willravel · 03-25-2008, 10:34 AM

SF, did you try to defend him or teach him to be assertive? Have you tried to form a union?

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 10:37 AM

There arent any unions for people who work in offices (or at least not any that mean anything) - a lot of people tried to help him, and in the end he left and got a new job, which is the only way out for him left and the only way he could claim back his dignity.

Glory's Sun · 03-25-2008, 10:37 AM

when I say harden the fuck up, I'm basically saying to ignore it. if something a coworker does or says causes you to clam up and not function or cry.. then there's a deeper issue there.

if it is so bad that it causes a person to not perform daily activities, then either let HR know about it or shut the fuck up. it's pretty simple. there's no reason that government should step into this situation. bullying can take on such a broad spectrum that it would impossible to not get sued for bullying. this is a slippery slope that hopefully will never be created.

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 10:39 AM

All of those things are easy to say though, and harder to do when youre in it. If it was me or you, of course we'd either tell the guy that wasnt an appropriate way to speak to us, go to HR, go to another manager, or do whatever... some people dont have the personality to protect themselves always.

To me bullying should constitute constructive dismissal if the company is shown not to have an appropriate system of dealing with it.

Glory's Sun · 03-25-2008, 10:51 AM

the problem here is what constitutes bullying.. how do you word that language without causing major problems? Is just being an asshole and telling a coworker to do their job in a less than nice manner being a bully? Once this starts there's no end.

Ustwo · 03-25-2008, 10:57 AM

Laugh, as soon as I read 'worse than sexual harassment' I knew some assholes would think it needs legislation. I wasn't disappointed.

First against the mother fucking wall when the revolution comes.

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 11:10 AM

Bullying is very hard to define, but no one is saying it should be made into a criminal offence, just that companies should be held liable if they do not have adequate processes to deal with it. If someone comes up to you in the street and starts insulting you - someone has to make a judgment to if a complaint is made - is it threatening behaviour or a breach of the peace, or is just "words"... all this stuff is subjective.

Employers do have a duty of care to protect people who work for them.

Glory's Sun · 03-25-2008, 11:19 AM

so.. we need the government to play the role of HR? again.. too much of a slippery slope.

there's already too many frivolous lawsuits out there.

edit: I also don't remember any job I've ever had giving me any type of security other than the basic security of not allowing joe blow into the building.

how much can a company be responsible for..really? Sexual Harassment is understandable.. but this.. no.. sorry not worth it.

Cynthetiq · 03-25-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Bullying is very hard to define, but no one is saying it should be made into a criminal offence, just that companies should be held liable if they do not have adequate processes to deal with it. If someone comes up to you in the street and starts insulting you - someone has to make a judgment to if a complaint is made - is it threatening behaviour or a breach of the peace, or is just "words"... all this stuff is subjective.

Employers do have a duty of care to protect people who work for them.

So the mom and pop shop can be liable because they were "bullying" someone to work all the holidays that everyone else gets off?

I don't know what it's like in the UK but in the US I can insult anyone I like while I'm standing in the middle of the street, that's the point of free speech. The moment that individual touches me that is assault.

The only person who makes a judgement call is the individual they can LEAVE the area and avoide any confrontation. That's the only real choice that needs to be made.

You've gone from stating you wouldn't snitch on a neighbor who is committing crimes but you'd be a cry baby because someone hurt your feelings?

Willravel · 03-25-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

There arent any unions for people who work in offices (or at least not any that mean anything)

Ever see what happens during a secretary's union strike? It's fucking epic.

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 11:52 AM

Using terms like crybaby isnt especially helpful when discussing bullying victims, is it?

I think what is pretty clear from a lot of comments here is that this is an issue that is taken very seriously at all in the States - so I applaud the people who are raising it.

Bullying can destroy people, literally. There is a balance, like everything - no one wants a world were employers are held to ransom by the threat of fake claims, and I for one dont want a world were people can be utterly crushed and have no protection. Not everyone CAN just walk out, and not everyone can stand up for themselves.

A duty of care exists even in a place so capitalist as in America. A factory has a duty to protect the health and safety of employee's by not having dangerous machinery that they dont maintain and then ends up maining someone, by making sure that processes for safe working practives are in place and monitored... protecting people's mental and emotional health is not a different thing to me.

if "Mom and Pop" make their store a fire trap and dont install fire escapes, alarms, extinguishers, and a fire starts and someone is badly wounded or killed - quite rightly they are held liable. So they should if they bully an employee and emotionally damage them. With any case there is room for matters of degree and interpretation.

Jinn · 03-25-2008, 12:06 PM

Quote:

A duty of care exists even in a place so capitalist as in America. A factory has a duty to protect the health and safety of employee's by not having dangerous machinery that they dont maintain and then ends up maining someone, by making sure that processes for safe working practives are in place and monitored... protecting people's mental and emotional health is not a different thing to me.

They are vastly different things. We can never be placed in a responsible position with regards to someone's mental health. It's THEIR mental health for a reason. If you can't handle a certain boss, nothing is forcing you to stay there.

Being responsible for someone's ELSES mental health is the worst idea I've heard in a long time. The only person responsible for how I feel is ME.

Glory's Sun · 03-25-2008, 12:14 PM

So.. umm ..

why <b>CAN'T</b> a person just walk out? a person has just as much to quit a job as they do to try and fill the same position. it's not up to the company to make sure they can handle it after they get the position. if you can't stand the heat..

comparing safe practices such as fire extinguishers and "bullying" is a bit of a broad step isn't it? there's no way to compare the two.

I can already see this legislation heading to the school yard.. "Billy called me a poopie face mommie!" "Don't worry son, we'll sue his ass off for bullying!"

Cynthetiq · 03-25-2008, 12:21 PM

my point is raised that you'd SNITCH which is EQUALLY not helpful when discussing informing the police on certain activities happening within your knowledge and precesnce.

changing it to informing a lawyer to take the company to court about the bullying behavior of an individual doesn't make it any less palatable to me.

People who do not change what they are in the power to change are the ones who are irresponsible. For whatever reason be it pay scale, workload, bullying, friendliness, and other non-legislated occupational hazards. Not the government, not the employer, not anyone else but the individual.

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 12:53 PM

Because most people have mortgages and cant afford to walk out of a job without another one to go to, which isnt the easiest thing to achieve when your self esteem has been obliterated.

I would prefer the company was taken to an employment tribunal, not a high court - but I dont know enough about the legal system in the States... there should be a process to review these things at a level below the courts, but with the same dignity as a court.

Crimes against property and crimes against people are different things... and my views about petty burgulary and a police force I see as hostile to the needs and goals of normal working class people are different to my views about corporations that do not take appropriate measures to protect their employee's from emotional violence.

If you believe in a world were it is the law of the jungle and the strong survive and the weak toughen up or crumple, I guess I can understand your view. I dont live in that world, and I hold that the majority of people do not wish to either.

Bullying exists and thrives precisely because of this whole "dont be a crybaby"/"toughen up"/"why dont you stand up for youself, are you a wimp?" culture.

robot_parade · 03-25-2008, 12:58 PM

When I have a problem with my coworkers, I just threaten to punch them in the penis. End of problem.

Ok, I work in a fairly easy-going office, granted.

Cynthetiq · 03-25-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Source: NYTimes.com
View: Have You Been Bullied at Work?

Have You Been Bullied at Work?

A recent Well blog post about bullies in the workplace generated more than 300 reader comments, prompting me to explore the issue further in my Well column in Science Times this week.

Bullying in the workplace is incredibly common — a recent survey suggests more than one-third of employees have been bullied on the job. The problem is that the tactics used by workplace bullies usually are insidious and difficult to complain about. Often, the only way the bullying stops is when the victim quits.

Here’s a Workplace Aggression Research Questionnaire used by researchers from the State University of New York in New Paltz that identifies these often subtle bullying behaviors. Take the quiz to find out if you’re a victim of bullying. Occasional insults don’t count. Bullying occurs when the behavior has occurred consistently during the past six months.

In the past six months have you regularly:
Been glared at in a hostile manner?
Been excluded from work-related social gatherings?
Had others storm out of the work area when you entered?
Had others consistently arrive late for meetings that you called?
Been given the “silent treatment”?
Not been given the praise for which you felt entitled?
Been treated in a rude or disrespectful manner?
Had others refuse your requests for assistance?
Had others fail to deny false rumors about you?
Been given little or no feedback about your performance?
Had others delay action on matters that were important to you?
Been yelled at or shouted at in a hostile manner?
Been subjected to negative comments about your intelligence or competence?
Had others consistently fail to return your telephone calls or respond to your memos or e-mail?
Had your contributions ignored by others? Had someone interfere with your work activities?
Been subjected to mean pranks?
Been lied to?
Had others fail to give you information that you really needed?
Been denied a raise or promotion without being given a valid reason?
Been subjected to derogatory name calling?
Been the target of rumors or gossip?
Shown little empathy or sympathy when you were having a tough time?
Had co-workers fail to defend your plans or ideas to others?
Been given unreasonable workloads or deadlines — more than others?
Had others destroy or needlessly take resources that you needed to do your job?
Been accused of deliberately making an error?
Been subjected to temper tantrums when disagreeing with someone?
Been prevented from expressing yourself (for example, interrupted when speaking)?
Had attempts made to turn other employees against you?
Had someone flaunt his or her status or treat you in a condescending manner?
Had someone else take credit for your work or ideas?
Been reprimanded or “put down” in front of others?

I was digging about NYTimes.com and came up with the original blog entry.

I'm sorry but most of that list just yells "HARDEN THE FUCK UP!" to me. I get my job done no matter what. I'm not here to make friends, I'm not here to play games.

To me bullying is just a form of playing a game.

Strange Famous · 03-25-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

To me bullying is just a form of playing a game.

I find that quite a sad thing for someone to admit to with apparent pride, or at least no sense of shame.

Ustwo · 03-25-2008, 02:18 PM

Oh that list is priceless.

Not been given the praise for which you felt entitled?

fresnelly · 03-25-2008, 03:21 PM

We had a real bully boss at our office. He often belittled and demeaned employees above and beyond their work and really seemed to get off on it. He micromanaged projects brutally and changed his mind so much that we all believed he was more interested in wielding power than getting projects done.

Were we not tough enough? Perhaps. He seemed to treat those to gave it back to him with more respect, not unlike a true roughneck. But this was a software company, not an Alaskan King Crab boat, and over the two years I was there under him, we lost 20 people out of about 30.

He was finally pushed aside into a detached executive position when a new partner came on board. He was the worst combination: a Jerk who was a lousy manager.

I agree that legislation would be pointless and perhaps even dangerous, but we shouldn't be fooled that all aggressive bosses are virtuous ones.

Manuel Hong · 03-25-2008, 03:30 PM

Bullies and assholes are GIFTS! They are a wonderful way to learn how to:

1. Stand up for yourself and be assertive

2. Be forced out of a shitty-ass job and into a more suitable and enjoyable job. (unless you refuse the lesson and get into the same situation again!)

3. Learn how to constructively deal with said assholes and not take their bullshit personally.

How many other reasons can you think of?

Grasshopper Green · 03-25-2008, 04:10 PM

At my last job I:

Was yelled at or shouted at in a hostile manner
Was subjected to negative comments about your intelligence or competence
Was lied to
Was given unreasonable workloads or deadlines — more than others
Had others destroy or needlessly take resources that you needed to do your job
Was reprimanded or "put down" in front of others (not exactly, but I was I felt, purposely embarassed in front of others)

Guess what? I quit. I got a better job. I'm a kickass employee and their loss was my gain. It was the best decision I've made in a long time and I didn't need "legislation" there to protect me. More PC bullshit is exactly what this country doesn't need.

Shauk · 03-25-2008, 04:42 PM

I know, people act like their jobs are so unique and irreplaceable

Cynthetiq · 03-25-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I find that quite a sad thing for someone to admit to with apparent pride, or at least no sense of shame.

What is being admitted to with apparent pride or no sense of shame?

I stated I don't play games and I find that bullying is another form of game playing.

Sion · 03-25-2008, 07:23 PM

regardless of how we feel about workplace bullying, there is ALREADY legislation in place (at least in the States) to deal with it...I'm sure you've all heard the following phrase at least a time or two: "creating a hostile working environment"

my take on these:

Been glared at in a hostile manner? get over it
Been excluded from work-related social gatherings? get over it
Had others storm out of the work area when you entered? get over it
Had others consistently arrive late for meetings that you called? unprofessional conduct that should not be tolerated
Been given the “silent treatment”? borderline get over it/unprofessional conduct
Not been given the praise for which you felt entitled? get over it
Been treated in a rude or disrespectful manner? unprofessional conduct
Had others refuse your requests for assistance? too situationally dependent to generalize about
Had others fail to deny false rumors about you? rumors are unprofessional conduct and should not be tolerated. a false rumor should always be quashed immediately
Been given little or no feedback about your performance? bad management
Had others delay action on matters that were important to you? if the matters are also important to the company, then this should not be tolerated
Been yelled at or shouted at in a hostile manner? Unprof. conduct
Been subjected to negative comments about your intelligence or competence? Unprof. conduct
Had others consistently fail to return your telephone calls or respond to your memos or e-mail? Unprof. conduct
Had your contributions ignored by others? generally speaking, get over it
Had someone interfere with your work activities? Unprof. conduct
Been subjected to mean pranks? Unprof. conduct
Been lied to? Unprof. conduct
Had others fail to give you information that you really needed? Unprof. conduct
Been denied a raise or promotion without being given a valid reason? Legally actionable
Been subjected to derogatory name calling? Unprof. conduct, potentially legally actionable
Been the target of rumors or gossip? Unprof. conduct
Shown little empathy or sympathy when you were having a tough time? get over it
Had co-workers fail to defend your plans or ideas to others? get over it
Been given unreasonable workloads or deadlines — more than others? bad management
Had others destroy or needlessly take resources that you needed to do your job? Unprof. conduct
Been accused of deliberately making an error? Unprof. conduct
Been subjected to temper tantrums when disagreeing with someone? Unprof. conduct
Been prevented from expressing yourself (for example, interrupted when speaking)? Annoying, but unless in a formal meeting setting, get over it
Had attempts made to turn other employees against you? too vague, but borderline unprof. conduct
Had someone flaunt his or her status or treat you in a condescending manner? get over it
Had someone else take credit for your work or ideas? common but unprof. conduct
Been reprimanded or “put down” in front of others? Unprof. conduct

No unprofessional conduct should ever be tolerated by anyone in a workplace. Of course there are varying degrees of unprofessionalism, ranging from something that should get the unprofessional employee pulled aside and talked to, to that which should get the employee disciplined, up to and including fired. The list above covers that range pretty well.

Strange Famous · 03-27-2008, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

What is being admitted to with apparent pride or no sense of shame?

I stated I don't play games and I find that bullying is another form of game playing.

I think it is sad that you admit with apparent pride that you consider bullying to be a game.

I am sorry if that wasnt clear the first time.

Its easy to pick things off the list quoted and say on their own they look silly... but they are not bullying, just some of the things bullies do.

A young girl who was a friend of my family killed herself when she was 13 over being bullied at school. Perhaps she should have toughened... but the game was not so much good fun for her.

Or maybe you will say instead that it is a bad problem in schools, but once a person is 18 they are fair game?

Cynthetiq · 03-27-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I think it is sad that you admit with apparent pride that you consider bullying to be a game.

I am sorry if that wasnt clear the first time.

Its easy to pick things off the list quoted and say on their own they look silly... but they are not bullying, just some of the things bullies do.

A young girl who was a friend of my family killed herself when she was 13 over being bullied at school. Perhaps she should have toughened... but the game was not so much good fun for her.

Or maybe you will say instead that it is a bad problem in schools, but once a person is 18 they are fair game?

People play games all the time. Maybe in the Queen's english game means something completely different, but there are players of many kinds of games out there. From those that are trying to get into the panties of the sket at the club, to the politic playing job seeker kissing ass to the boss and backstabbing coworkers.

I'm sorry that your friend died. That's a shame, but that was a choice she made, not someone else. Words may hurt, and cut deep but they are at the end of the day still just words. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." is the old saying in these parts.

In the real world, there's nothing to protect you. You'd like the government to do that for you. I'd rather I take care of me, myself and my own. That's the fundamental difference here.

Willravel · 03-27-2008, 12:12 PM

Cynth, it's tough to call something that ruins some people's lives a "game". It's trivializing something serious.

sapiens · 03-27-2008, 12:18 PM

If you consider it a game in the game-theoretical sense, I don't think "game" trivializes bullying, but if it's used in the more colloquial sense, I agree with willravel.

Glory's Sun · 03-27-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Cynth, it's tough to call something that ruins some people's lives a "game". It's trivializing something serious.

this is all relative. a game to one is a tragedy to another...

Willravel · 03-27-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

this is all relative. a game to one is a tragedy to another...

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll take the series again soon. Keep hope alive!!!

Glory's Sun · 03-27-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Don't worry, I'm sure they'll take the series again soon. Keep hope alive!!!

heh.

I wonder how many of these so called "bullies" even realize they are doing it. I'm sure some do it on purpose, but for the most part, I'd be willing to bet that it's just a natural reaction to the stressors of the environment. some people clam up, some people become assholes. either way, it's ultimately up to the person who thinks they are being bullied to do something about it. leave, get hr involved etc.

if I have a project that is on a strict deadline, and someone fucks it up and it misses deadline causing revenue to be lost.. of course I'm going to be an asshole and let the person know they fucked up and to get their shit straight. does that make me a bully?? if it does, I hope sensitive people stay out of the multi-media industry and similar industries alike.

Strange Famous · 03-27-2008, 12:36 PM

Some people are strong enough to look after themselves.

I expect the rest of us to look after those who are not. Thats the basis of my belief system.

Cynthetiq · 03-27-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Some people are strong enough to look after themselves.

I expect the rest of us to look after those who are not. Thats the basis of my belief system.

I'm not trivializing it in any way by calling it a game. It is as pointed to the game theory idea to best clarify that. If the word game bothers you, maybe I'm bullying you in some manner.

I don't believe you expect the rest of us to look out after those who cannot. From what I read of your posts, you want the government to be responsible for it.

As I stated, I protect, me, myself, and my own. My own encompasses, my team members, friends, family, and several other circles.

Frowning Budah · 04-01-2008, 06:45 PM

I had always gotten along well with my supervisors until I started a new job. I was warned before I started to watch my back, but assumed I could handle it. Wrong. The woman assigned as my boss was an expert at making me look and feel stupid. She undermined every job I did. I was afraid to do anything for fear of being held up to ridicule. There was no one for me to turn. She hadn't violated any rules she could be called on. Most of her harassment went on behind closed doors so it would be the new guys word against an established supervisor.
I finally out lasted her and she retired. It was only after that, that I found she had done the same thing to another employee who had ended up in the mental institute.
It took me a long time to regain my confidence.
Maybe legislation isn't the answer, but this type of person who gets their jollys off breaking people should not be able to go un punished.

03-25-2008, 10:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I seen a guy who worked at my company be bullied (by my boss) to the point he couldnt sleep, he was having chest pains, he would cry at work... I didnt get bullied because I'm quite aggressive he did and he wasnt the type of person to stand up for himself, he was undermined, pushed around, driven to breaking point... I dont think telling people to toughen up is an attitude I would like my country to take. People are entitled to some basic protection, it isnt always easy for these people to free themselves. if they were the kind of person to just say "ah screw it" and get another job, they wouldnt bullied in the first place. I guess all the hard men who want to call the victims of bullying weak and tell them to toughen up are pretty lucky - since they never been a victim of that sort of behaviour. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-25-2008, 10:37 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	There arent any unions for people who work in offices (or at least not any that mean anything) - a lot of people tried to help him, and in the end he left and got a new job, which is the only way out for him left and the only way he could claim back his dignity. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-25-2008, 10:39 AM	#9 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	All of those things are easy to say though, and harder to do when youre in it. If it was me or you, of course we'd either tell the guy that wasnt an appropriate way to speak to us, go to HR, go to another manager, or do whatever... some people dont have the personality to protect themselves always. To me bullying should constitute constructive dismissal if the company is shown not to have an appropriate system of dealing with it. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-25-2008, 10:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Laugh, as soon as I read 'worse than sexual harassment' I knew some assholes would think it needs legislation. I wasn't disappointed. First against the mother fucking wall when the revolution comes. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-25-2008, 11:10 AM	#12 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Bullying is very hard to define, but no one is saying it should be made into a criminal offence, just that companies should be held liable if they do not have adequate processes to deal with it. If someone comes up to you in the street and starts insulting you - someone has to make a judgment to if a complaint is made - is it threatening behaviour or a breach of the peace, or is just "words"... all this stuff is subjective. Employers do have a duty of care to protect people who work for them. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-25-2008, 08:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Steve Jobs is a complete asshole, but Apple's stocks are still strong and their market share keeps rising. Why? He's an asshole that everyone in the company believes is an incarnation of god, so they want to please him. I've even had to be an asshole from time to time. This is a place where legislation doesn't belong. Unless they're breaking the law, it's up to the company.

03-25-2008, 08:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	I can see where this is coming from, but no legislation is going to change how someone feels about you. it just means they'll stab you in the back with a smile on their face instead of a sneer. Part of being successful in the workplace is your ability to network/socialize/cohabitate with your management anyways. Thats life.

03-25-2008, 09:00 AM	#4 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	legislation is stupid in this instance. When will people quit looking to the government to help with their petty issues? /insert harden the fuck up video(s) here.

03-25-2008, 10:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	SF, did you try to defend him or teach him to be assertive? Have you tried to form a union?

03-25-2008, 10:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	when I say harden the fuck up, I'm basically saying to ignore it. if something a coworker does or says causes you to clam up and not function or cry.. then there's a deeper issue there. if it is so bad that it causes a person to not perform daily activities, then either let HR know about it or shut the fuck up. it's pretty simple. there's no reason that government should step into this situation. bullying can take on such a broad spectrum that it would impossible to not get sued for bullying. this is a slippery slope that hopefully will never be created.

03-25-2008, 10:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	the problem here is what constitutes bullying.. how do you word that language without causing major problems? Is just being an asshole and telling a coworker to do their job in a less than nice manner being a bully? Once this starts there's no end.

03-25-2008, 11:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	so.. we need the government to play the role of HR? again.. too much of a slippery slope. there's already too many frivolous lawsuits out there. edit: I also don't remember any job I've ever had giving me any type of security other than the basic security of not allowing joe blow into the building. how much can a company be responsible for..really? Sexual Harassment is understandable.. but this.. no.. sorry not worth it.

03-25-2008, 11:52 AM	#16 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Using terms like crybaby isnt especially helpful when discussing bullying victims, is it? I think what is pretty clear from a lot of comments here is that this is an issue that is taken very seriously at all in the States - so I applaud the people who are raising it. Bullying can destroy people, literally. There is a balance, like everything - no one wants a world were employers are held to ransom by the threat of fake claims, and I for one dont want a world were people can be utterly crushed and have no protection. Not everyone CAN just walk out, and not everyone can stand up for themselves. A duty of care exists even in a place so capitalist as in America. A factory has a duty to protect the health and safety of employee's by not having dangerous machinery that they dont maintain and then ends up maining someone, by making sure that processes for safe working practives are in place and monitored... protecting people's mental and emotional health is not a different thing to me. if "Mom and Pop" make their store a fire trap and dont install fire escapes, alarms, extinguishers, and a fire starts and someone is badly wounded or killed - quite rightly they are held liable. So they should if they bully an employee and emotionally damage them. With any case there is room for matters of degree and interpretation. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-25-2008, 12:14 PM	#18 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	So.. umm .. why <b>CAN'T</b> a person just walk out? a person has just as much to quit a job as they do to try and fill the same position. it's not up to the company to make sure they can handle it after they get the position. if you can't stand the heat.. comparing safe practices such as fire extinguishers and "bullying" is a bit of a broad step isn't it? there's no way to compare the two. I can already see this legislation heading to the school yard.. "Billy called me a poopie face mommie!" "Don't worry son, we'll sue his ass off for bullying!"

03-25-2008, 12:21 PM	#19 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	my point is raised that you'd SNITCH which is EQUALLY not helpful when discussing informing the police on certain activities happening within your knowledge and precesnce. changing it to informing a lawyer to take the company to court about the bullying behavior of an individual doesn't make it any less palatable to me. People who do not change what they are in the power to change are the ones who are irresponsible. For whatever reason be it pay scale, workload, bullying, friendliness, and other non-legislated occupational hazards. Not the government, not the employer, not anyone else but the individual. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-25-2008, 12:53 PM	#20 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Because most people have mortgages and cant afford to walk out of a job without another one to go to, which isnt the easiest thing to achieve when your self esteem has been obliterated. I would prefer the company was taken to an employment tribunal, not a high court - but I dont know enough about the legal system in the States... there should be a process to review these things at a level below the courts, but with the same dignity as a court. Crimes against property and crimes against people are different things... and my views about petty burgulary and a police force I see as hostile to the needs and goals of normal working class people are different to my views about corporations that do not take appropriate measures to protect their employee's from emotional violence. If you believe in a world were it is the law of the jungle and the strong survive and the weak toughen up or crumple, I guess I can understand your view. I dont live in that world, and I hold that the majority of people do not wish to either. Bullying exists and thrives precisely because of this whole "dont be a crybaby"/"toughen up"/"why dont you stand up for youself, are you a wimp?" culture. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-25-2008, 12:58 PM	#21 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	When I have a problem with my coworkers, I just threaten to punch them in the penis. End of problem. Ok, I work in a fairly easy-going office, granted.

03-25-2008, 02:18 PM	#24 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Oh that list is priceless. Not been given the praise for which you felt entitled? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-25-2008, 03:21 PM	#25 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	We had a real bully boss at our office. He often belittled and demeaned employees above and beyond their work and really seemed to get off on it. He micromanaged projects brutally and changed his mind so much that we all believed he was more interested in wielding power than getting projects done. Were we not tough enough? Perhaps. He seemed to treat those to gave it back to him with more respect, not unlike a true roughneck. But this was a software company, not an Alaskan King Crab boat, and over the two years I was there under him, we lost 20 people out of about 30. He was finally pushed aside into a detached executive position when a new partner came on board. He was the worst combination: a Jerk who was a lousy manager. I agree that legislation would be pointless and perhaps even dangerous, but we shouldn't be fooled that all aggressive bosses are virtuous ones. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life Last edited by fresnelly; 03-25-2008 at 03:56 PM..

03-25-2008, 03:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	Bullies and assholes are GIFTS! They are a wonderful way to learn how to: 1. Stand up for yourself and be assertive 2. Be forced out of a shitty-ass job and into a more suitable and enjoyable job. (unless you refuse the lesson and get into the same situation again!) 3. Learn how to constructively deal with said assholes and not take their bullshit personally. How many other reasons can you think of? __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

03-25-2008, 04:10 PM	#27 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	At my last job I: Was yelled at or shouted at in a hostile manner Was subjected to negative comments about your intelligence or competence Was lied to Was given unreasonable workloads or deadlines — more than others Had others destroy or needlessly take resources that you needed to do your job Was reprimanded or "put down" in front of others (not exactly, but I was I felt, purposely embarassed in front of others) Guess what? I quit. I got a better job. I'm a kickass employee and their loss was my gain. It was the best decision I've made in a long time and I didn't need "legislation" there to protect me. More PC bullshit is exactly what this country doesn't need. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa Last edited by Grasshopper Green; 03-25-2008 at 07:37 PM..

03-25-2008, 04:42 PM	#28 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	I know, people act like their jobs are so unique and irreplaceable

03-25-2008, 07:23 PM	#30 (permalink)
Sion Dumb all over...a little ugly on the side Location: In the room where the giant fire puffer works, and the torture never stops.	regardless of how we feel about workplace bullying, there is ALREADY legislation in place (at least in the States) to deal with it...I'm sure you've all heard the following phrase at least a time or two: "creating a hostile working environment" my take on these: Been glared at in a hostile manner? get over it Been excluded from work-related social gatherings? get over it Had others storm out of the work area when you entered? get over it Had others consistently arrive late for meetings that you called? unprofessional conduct that should not be tolerated Been given the “silent treatment”? borderline get over it/unprofessional conduct Not been given the praise for which you felt entitled? get over it Been treated in a rude or disrespectful manner? unprofessional conduct Had others refuse your requests for assistance? too situationally dependent to generalize about Had others fail to deny false rumors about you? rumors are unprofessional conduct and should not be tolerated. a false rumor should always be quashed immediately Been given little or no feedback about your performance? bad management Had others delay action on matters that were important to you? if the matters are also important to the company, then this should not be tolerated Been yelled at or shouted at in a hostile manner? Unprof. conduct Been subjected to negative comments about your intelligence or competence? Unprof. conduct Had others consistently fail to return your telephone calls or respond to your memos or e-mail? Unprof. conduct Had your contributions ignored by others? generally speaking, get over it Had someone interfere with your work activities? Unprof. conduct Been subjected to mean pranks? Unprof. conduct Been lied to? Unprof. conduct Had others fail to give you information that you really needed? Unprof. conduct Been denied a raise or promotion without being given a valid reason? Legally actionable Been subjected to derogatory name calling? Unprof. conduct, potentially legally actionable Been the target of rumors or gossip? Unprof. conduct Shown little empathy or sympathy when you were having a tough time? get over it Had co-workers fail to defend your plans or ideas to others? get over it Been given unreasonable workloads or deadlines — more than others? bad management Had others destroy or needlessly take resources that you needed to do your job? Unprof. conduct Been accused of deliberately making an error? Unprof. conduct Been subjected to temper tantrums when disagreeing with someone? Unprof. conduct Been prevented from expressing yourself (for example, interrupted when speaking)? Annoying, but unless in a formal meeting setting, get over it Had attempts made to turn other employees against you? too vague, but borderline unprof. conduct Had someone flaunt his or her status or treat you in a condescending manner? get over it Had someone else take credit for your work or ideas? common but unprof. conduct Been reprimanded or “put down” in front of others? Unprof. conduct No unprofessional conduct should ever be tolerated by anyone in a workplace. Of course there are varying degrees of unprofessionalism, ranging from something that should get the unprofessional employee pulled aside and talked to, to that which should get the employee disciplined, up to and including fired. The list above covers that range pretty well. __________________ He's the best, of course, of all the worst. Some wrong been done, he done it first. -fz I jus' want ta thank you...falettinme...be mice elf...agin... Last edited by Sion; 03-25-2008 at 07:44 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

03-27-2008, 12:12 PM	#33 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Cynth, it's tough to call something that ruins some people's lives a "game". It's trivializing something serious.

03-27-2008, 12:18 PM	#34 (permalink)
sapiens Junkie Location: Some place windy	If you consider it a game in the game-theoretical sense, I don't think "game" trivializes bullying, but if it's used in the more colloquial sense, I agree with willravel.

03-27-2008, 12:36 PM	#38 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Some people are strong enough to look after themselves. I expect the rest of us to look after those who are not. Thats the basis of my belief system. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-01-2008, 06:45 PM	#40 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	I had always gotten along well with my supervisors until I started a new job. I was warned before I started to watch my back, but assumed I could handle it. Wrong. The woman assigned as my boss was an expert at making me look and feel stupid. She undermined every job I did. I was afraid to do anything for fear of being held up to ridicule. There was no one for me to turn. She hadn't violated any rules she could be called on. Most of her harassment went on behind closed doors so it would be the new guys word against an established supervisor. I finally out lasted her and she retired. It was only after that, that I found she had done the same thing to another employee who had ended up in the mental institute. It took me a long time to regain my confidence. Maybe legislation isn't the answer, but this type of person who gets their jollys off breaking people should not be able to go un punished.