We Don't Want To Be Information Slaves - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 03-19-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

View: The Pirate Bay to BBC: We Don’t Want To Be Information Slaves
Source: Torrentfreak
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The Pirate Bay to BBC: We Don’t Want To Be Information Slaves

The BBC has published a podcast which takes a look at piracy through the ages, also covering the modern concept of ‘intellectual property’. Of course, no story of piracy would be complete without discussing The Pirate Bay so Peter Sunde also plays a significant part in this 20 minute program.

The podcast starts off with the BBC reporter buying physical bootleg DVDs on the streets of London, but later develops into a discussion with The Pirate Bay’s Peter Sunde.

“Today, piracy has become more and more like, someone who likes freedom, someone who likes information exchange” says Peter. “It’s only positive, it’s only, only good and you know, that is piracy according to some people, and you get labeled as a pirate.”

Peter then goes on to state some of the objectives and motivation behind running the world’s largest BitTorrent tracker: “We’re fighting, The Pirate Bay is fighting for freedom because we don’t want to be information slaves, we don’t want to have someone else decide what we should and shouldn’t think.”

Despite massive effort by the music and movie industries to create a negative image of piracy, for some, the term ‘pirate’ has lots of positive connotations these days and Peter is happy to be labeled as one: “We call ourselves pirates because the recording industry is calling us pirates and we think it’s a cool thing to be a pirate. It’s people today that want to share information and the internet has changed how people actually distribute music and movies so the industry is very scared of the change.”

Most modern-day media pirates would agree, piracy hasn’t always been easy. Tools haven’t always been readily available nor priced in a way that makes piracy accessible to all. The internet - providing worldwide communication and information interchange for everyone who accesses it - has changed all of that. Putting that genie back in the bottle may prove impossible, says Peter:

“Previously we wanted to have information free but it was hard and the Internet has made it easy. This is an evolution that’s needed and I think in a hundred years we’re gonna look back at this period and say: “We were so stupid to even try and stop it”

But the movie and music industries are attempting to stop it and they do not consider themselves stupid for trying. Indeed, the movie industry in particular is putting huge resources into trying to curtail piracy and has put significant amounts of effort into shuttering The Pirate Bay.

“Getting all of the industry against you makes it very hard,” says Peter, “it is so important that the people can communicate and they want to stop this for, you know, economical reasons - and they’re not even right about the economical aspects.”

The BBC interviewer questions Peter on this point: “You say they are wrong about the economical aspects but they would say: ‘I own this film, I own this music, and you are stealing this from me’. How are they wrong about the economical aspect?”

“Well, what we’ve seen in the music industry is that interest is growing, more people are interested in music and they spend more money than ever on music, but the record industry is shrinking because nobody wants to buy CDs anymore, it’s an inferior product, you can’t put the CD directly on your MP3 player.”

Indeed, the music industry has been incredibly slow to adapt to the digital revolution, in the main preferring to insist that people continue to buy their music on plastic discs, instead of the incredibly popular, flexible (and easily copied) MP3 format. Peter believes it’s about control:

“They don’t want to sell MP3s because they feel they don’t have the control they used to have, so they don’t understand that they are losing out on money because they are not following how the industry is changing.”

But it’s the ‘reproduction pirates’ - file-sharers - that are taking over the ship now. They’re everywhere says the BBC, and they’re multiplying. Tarleton Gillespie, assistant professor at the Department of Communication, Cornell University explains:

“The generation that scares the music industry more is the next one, the one that’s coming up now because they’ve never known anything different. There’s always been peer to peer [for them], there’s always been very easy ways to get on whichever service you want and the music is there. So the question of how to get it…it’s not backroom dealing or someone setting up a table on the street corner, it is always there, so the music industry is struggling because they have to figure out how to convince that generation to think of anything other than “this is the easiest and most free way to get my music.”

The full 3-part article accompanying the podcast can be found here.

The podcast itself can be downloaded here, and is packed with lots of information, provided free of charge, without DRM, and in convenient MP3 format. How media should be.

For some reason this is hitting the media wires a bit more mainstream than normal. If you didn't catch the Pirate's Dilemma thread, I urge you to watch even the short abridged version.

We've discussed the ideas of how the music industry has to adapt, I never thought of the idea that the next generation, the future buyers of music, haven't known any different to be able to download music via p2p networks. The next coming generations will know nothing about a physical meidum to purchase intellectual works. Music delivered directly to your ipod. Movies directly to your cablebox/DVR/AppleTV/Tivo. Books delivered to your ebook reader. Jobs has always trashed an idea before he launched his own. Recently he stated that no one reads books anymore. Really? But yet iPhone and iPod touch seem to be using natural gestures that people do when reading books. The book industry is bracing for this very idea that Apple may enter into the ereader market.

The only physical things that people will be buying will be clothes, houses, cars, and other durable goods.

We may not want to be information slaves, but there's a good chance that we will be come one because the current trend is a service system of information.

BadNick · 03-19-2008, 07:44 PM

It is an interesting development. Maybe I'm off base, since I have no personal experience dealing with record companies as an artist, but I'm kinda enjoying seeing them squirm now, since for a long time in the past they had the abusive upper hand in their dealings with artists. I hope things will continue to develop in favor of the artists.

As far as clothing, between all the old ipods and ithis and ithat my kids have around the house, I could make a nice suit out of them.

Ustwo · 03-20-2008, 05:51 AM

Peter then goes on to state some of the objectives and motivation behind running the world’s largest BitTorrent tracker: “We’re fighting, The Pirate Bay is fighting for freedom because we don’t want to be information slaves, we don’t want to have someone else decide what we should and shouldn’t think.”

What a long, disingenuous way of saying 'I want free stuff other people worked hard to create.'

I've heard all the 'piracy actually helps the industry' arguments and while I don't drink all the coolaid there, it doesn't matter if its true or not.

Its theft.

dksuddeth · 03-20-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Peter then goes on to state some of the objectives and motivation behind running the world’s largest BitTorrent tracker: “We’re fighting, The Pirate Bay is fighting for freedom because we don’t want to be information slaves, we don’t want to have someone else decide what we should and shouldn’t think.”

What a long, disingenuous way of saying 'I want free stuff other people worked hard to create.'

I've heard all the 'piracy actually helps the industry' arguments and while I don't drink all the coolaid there, it doesn't matter if its true or not.

Its theft.

there is a HUGE difference between fighting for free news reports from mainstream media sources and downloading the latest expansion of world of warcraft. Pirate Bay knows this and looks like their just trying to fluff their way under the radar.

Cynthetiq · 03-20-2008, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Peter then goes on to state some of the objectives and motivation behind running the world’s largest BitTorrent tracker: “We’re fighting, The Pirate Bay is fighting for freedom because we don’t want to be information slaves, we don’t want to have someone else decide what we should and shouldn’t think.”

What a long, disingenuous way of saying 'I want free stuff other people worked hard to create.'

I've heard all the 'piracy actually helps the industry' arguments and while I don't drink all the coolaid there, it doesn't matter if its true or not.

Its theft.

How is it theft?

I buy a movie from Amazon Unbox. I have it delivered to my Tivo in my living room. I get tired, I would like to go to bed and keep watching it in my bedroom. I don't finish the show before I fall asleep, I'd like to watch it on my bus ride to work and watch it to my iPod.

I would like to transfer it there like I do my normally recorded shows, but DRM locks me to the single living room machine.

If I had purchased the show on DVD, I could play it in my living room, bedroom, PC. (I'd violate copyright but) I could use a program to move it to my iPod.

I record a show on my Tivo, I can move it to my PC, bedroom, or ipod.

Before Tivo 2.0 in order to accomplish the same things, I'd have to hack the Tivo, and basically use piracy tools to accomplish all the same things.

Where is the theft?

edit:Family Guy's Blue Harvest comes with a digital copy for iTunes so that it can be played also on an ipod.

Hain · 03-20-2008, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Where is the theft?

In your specific instance, I agree with you; Where is the theft? I myself make lossless back ups of my DVDs and only watch the backups because a DVD had a three month life span in my apartment due to friends, parents, roommate, friends of roommates, parents of roommates, etc, etc. It is my property and I am protecting my property against damage and theft by having a copy available.

Realistically, how often is this the case?

Ustwo · 03-20-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

How is it theft?

I buy a movie from Amazon Unbox. I have it delivered to my Tivo in my living room. I get tired, I would like to go to bed and keep watching it in my bedroom. I don't finish the show before I fall asleep, I'd like to watch it on my bus ride to work and watch it to my iPod.

I would like to transfer it there like I do my normally recorded shows, but DRM locks me to the single living room machine.

If I had purchased the show on DVD, I could play it in my living room, bedroom, PC. (I'd violate copyright but) I could use a program to move it to my iPod.

I record a show on my Tivo, I can move it to my PC, bedroom, or ipod.

Before Tivo 2.0 in order to accomplish the same things, I'd have to hack the Tivo, and basically use piracy tools to accomplish all the same things.

Where is the theft?

edit:Family Guy's Blue Harvest comes with a digital copy for iTunes so that it can be played also on an ipod.

This is like a medical marijuana argument. Sure there are obvious legitimate uses but the majority of those making this argument just want to get stoned. I'm not saying you are a pirate, from what I know of you here I'd be sort of surprised if you were a bit-torrent kind of guy, but a lot of the kids here think they pretty much deserve everything for free.

Now I do think everything is going to have to adapt to the 'new way' but that doesn't make the new way right or honest.

Willravel · 03-20-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

What a long, disingenuous way of saying 'I want free stuff other people worked hard to create.'

Have you checked out mininova or the other torrent sites? Do you know what's getting downloaded a ton? American Idol. Who in their right mind could possibly say that anyone worked hard to create American Idol? I've seen threads in nonsense that look like Citizen Kane next to that piece of garbage.

ring · 03-20-2008, 08:48 AM

(Thank you)....I was just having a conversation earlier today,
with a good friend about a rather similar subject; (that might not be too
off topic.). regarding the fuzzy nature of plagiarism..when is something
not mine or yours anymore...where does paraphrasing fit in the scheme?

Once I have given birth to an idea,(extrapolated from my enviroment) created anything...and have shared such
with others...is it really mine to hold onto anymore?

Perhaps that question might be better suited to the philosophy thread.
oh well.

I understand that someone's means of housing, clothing, and feeding
themselves might be at stake...

Is it okay to brainstorm here?

roachboy · 03-20-2008, 08:57 AM

will makes a good point: nothing about changing mode of access to media changes how people think about and use it necessarily. so there's nothing in itself "liberating" about file-sharing.

at the same time, i don't regard this as theft---more as a vehicle for publicity.
particularly for more obscure types of music/obscure bands etc.: the old business model of object-centered distribution of sound is cooked. there isn't a new one. i don't see anything problematic about abandoning to commodity form in itself--the problem arises with the fact that there are as yet few places that you can get reviewed unless you release objects--so the differentiation/review system is outmoded and hasn't adapted. the problem this creates is at the level of ways to generate exposure. the reason this is important is that you make money--such as it is--through performances.

this is the way of things for most musicians.
for pop corporations and their subsidiary expressions in artists, it's different.
but at the same time, they make far more from touring than from records.

i know the arguments both ways about commodity music and revenue and property rights for the composer and to a lesser extent the performers.
i think they are antiquated arguments.

but the main thing is that there is as yet no alternate model, no alternate system. this remains a commodity spectacle.

"may you not live in interesting times."
i never used to understand what sense that made.
now i do. more and more every day.

Willravel · 03-20-2008, 09:12 AM

American Idol is completely free to watch on local TV. I don't see how one could call that theft. The most downloaded torrents over the past year have been off network TV. Right now? Shows like New Amsterdam, wrestling, Law and Order, Surviver, Lost, and CSI are being downloaded a lot... and all of these shows are free on TV and many one can even stream from the website of the network on which they air! How in the world one can suggest this is theft is beyond me.

And music? I still have a deck from the 1980s that can record radio onto a cassette, but I don't see the RIAA breaking down my door to get all my tapes of Nirvana from the early 90s. I never saw the RIAA taking a hard stance against Sony AM/FM tape decks. Either you're downloading something popular that one could easily get off the radio or you're downloading something rare that one may only be able to get off myspace (which is also free, of course).

Even movies! I was watching Batman Begins on to the other day and could have recorded it legally to my DVR without having to pay a dime to Warner.

I can't for the life of me understand why these things are theft simply because they are downloaded.

silent_jay · 03-20-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This is like a medical marijuana argument. Sure there are obvious legitimate uses but the majority of those making this argument just want to get stoned. I'm not saying you are a pirate, from what I know of you here I'd be sort of surprised if you were a bit-torrent kind of guy, but a lot of the kids here think they pretty much deserve everything for free.

Have you asked the majority of pot smokers this or are you just assuming? Knowing you from reading your posts here I'll assume you're assuming and haven't actually asked the majority.

Yep it's those blasted kids dagnabbit......

Cynthetiq · 03-20-2008, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

American Idol is completely free to watch on local TV. I don't see how one could call that theft. The most downloaded torrents over the past year have been off network TV. Right now? Shows like New Amsterdam, wrestling, Law and Order, Surviver, Lost, and CSI are being downloaded a lot... and all of these shows are free on TV and many one can even stream from the website of the network on which they air! How in the world one can suggest this is theft is beyond me.

And music? I still have a deck from the 1980s that can record radio onto a cassette, but I don't see the RIAA breaking down my door to get all my tapes of Nirvana from the early 90s. I never saw the RIAA taking a hard stance against Sony AM/FM tape decks. Either you're downloading something popular that one could easily get off the radio or you're downloading something rare that one may only be able to get off myspace (which is also free, of course).

Even movies! I was watching Batman Begins on to the other day and could have recorded it legally to my DVR without having to pay a dime to Warner.

I can't for the life of me understand why these things are theft simply because they are downloaded.

Actually you are talking about distribution channels. There is a difference in markets, market shares, and how much the distribution channels net monies for content creators.

So if this is an On Demand version of CSI, it competes directly with people downloading it via torrrents and also the streams available directly from cbs.com. It also eats into markets that they could license the rights to another company to broadcast overseas.

But let's stick with the US marketplace, if CSI is availble on torrents, it eats into advertisers that are on board the other distribtution cannels, On Demand, streaming via cbs.com, rebroadcast.

Willravel · 03-20-2008, 09:59 AM

The obvious fix to this is product placement. If one could advertise in a way that's not removed by those who create torrents, then they would still be getting the advertising that is paying for the entertainment.

silent_jay · 03-20-2008, 10:02 AM

Commercials......in my torrents.......NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lol

Cynthetiq · 03-20-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

The obvious fix to this is product placement. If one could advertise in a way that's not removed by those who create torrents, then they would still be getting the advertising that is paying for the entertainment.

They have been more and more products embedded into the shows, but the problem with that is it doesn't necessarily work worldwide. Junior Mints (think Seinfeld) aren't sold in Asian marketplaces.

Willravel · 03-20-2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

They have been more and more products embedded into the shows, but the problem with that is it doesn't necessarily work worldwide. Junior Mints (think Seinfeld) aren't sold in Asian marketplaces.

Well first off, I'm never going to Asia. Second, I would imagine that Junior Mints paying for distribution on American TV would provide quite a bit of money to the network, which it allocates some funds for the show itself. I'm not in TV, so I'm not 100% sure how it works, but I would imagine at least a reasonable percentage of advertising dollars go to the show which the advertisers want to be featured in. If people were paying $250,000 for a stint during Friends (once upon a time) vs. $25,000 for The Man Show, I would imagine that helped the translate to a bigger budget for Friends. As such, I would imagine that a show could be supported by just the American advertisers. Also, people do still watch these things on TV.

Cynthetiq · 03-20-2008, 10:34 AM

It isn't about show being supported by American advertisers.

Companies rely heavily on revenue generation. Media companies rely on the ability to sell and resell their products.

I just explained this to someone in my office since I deal with this on a daily basis.

I buy the rights from the licensor LucasFilm to make books about Star Wars. I am buying from him exclusive world wide rights to sell a line of Star Wars books called Dark Jedi Academy. I publish and distribute the book only in the United States.

I go to Germany and meet with a German Publish House gmbh and sell to them the right to translate the book into German and sell it worldwide. More than likely they will only translate the book and sell it in Germany. This implies they ONLY have those rights. I can contact another publisher and sell the rights to them to sell the book in English in Germany.

None of the products that were sold compete directly with each other. They all have their own ability to sell and not overlap their territory or distribution channel.

So a UK company cannot print the book in English and sell it in the UK or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

The german publish house gmbh will pay royalties to the me. As does the pulsiher of the english book in Germany. I then pay a share of that royalty to LucasFilm.

My profits go up because I didn't want to bother going to sell books in Germany because I don't know any distributors, wholesalers, or stores there. But selling the rights to the books there got me and the licensor more money that would have otherswise not been actualized.

03-20-2008, 05:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Peter then goes on to state some of the objectives and motivation behind running the world’s largest BitTorrent tracker: “We’re fighting, The Pirate Bay is fighting for freedom because we don’t want to be information slaves, we don’t want to have someone else decide what we should and shouldn’t think.” What a long, disingenuous way of saying 'I want free stuff other people worked hard to create.' I've heard all the 'piracy actually helps the industry' arguments and while I don't drink all the coolaid there, it doesn't matter if its true or not. Its theft. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-20-2008, 08:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	will makes a good point: nothing about changing mode of access to media changes how people think about and use it necessarily. so there's nothing in itself "liberating" about file-sharing. at the same time, i don't regard this as theft---more as a vehicle for publicity. particularly for more obscure types of music/obscure bands etc.: the old business model of object-centered distribution of sound is cooked. there isn't a new one. i don't see anything problematic about abandoning to commodity form in itself--the problem arises with the fact that there are as yet few places that you can get reviewed unless you release objects--so the differentiation/review system is outmoded and hasn't adapted. the problem this creates is at the level of ways to generate exposure. the reason this is important is that you make money--such as it is--through performances. this is the way of things for most musicians. for pop corporations and their subsidiary expressions in artists, it's different. but at the same time, they make far more from touring than from records. i know the arguments both ways about commodity music and revenue and property rights for the composer and to a lesser extent the performers. i think they are antiquated arguments. but the main thing is that there is as yet no alternate model, no alternate system. this remains a commodity spectacle. "may you not live in interesting times." i never used to understand what sense that made. now i do. more and more every day. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-20-2008, 10:02 AM	#15 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Commercials......in my torrents.......NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lol __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-20-2008, 10:34 AM	#18 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	It isn't about show being supported by American advertisers. Companies rely heavily on revenue generation. Media companies rely on the ability to sell and resell their products. I just explained this to someone in my office since I deal with this on a daily basis. I buy the rights from the licensor LucasFilm to make books about Star Wars. I am buying from him exclusive world wide rights to sell a line of Star Wars books called Dark Jedi Academy. I publish and distribute the book only in the United States. I go to Germany and meet with a German Publish House gmbh and sell to them the right to translate the book into German and sell it worldwide. More than likely they will only translate the book and sell it in Germany. This implies they ONLY have those rights. I can contact another publisher and sell the rights to them to sell the book in English in Germany. None of the products that were sold compete directly with each other. They all have their own ability to sell and not overlap their territory or distribution channel. So a UK company cannot print the book in English and sell it in the UK or anywhere else in the world for that matter. The german publish house gmbh will pay royalties to the me. As does the pulsiher of the english book in Germany. I then pay a share of that royalty to LucasFilm. My profits go up because I didn't want to bother going to sell books in Germany because I don't know any distributors, wholesalers, or stores there. But selling the rights to the books there got me and the licensor more money that would have otherswise not been actualized. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-19-2008, 07:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	It is an interesting development. Maybe I'm off base, since I have no personal experience dealing with record companies as an artist, but I'm kinda enjoying seeing them squirm now, since for a long time in the past they had the abusive upper hand in their dealings with artists. I hope things will continue to develop in favor of the artists. As far as clothing, between all the old ipods and ithis and ithat my kids have around the house, I could make a nice suit out of them.

03-20-2008, 08:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	(Thank you)....I was just having a conversation earlier today, with a good friend about a rather similar subject; (that might not be too off topic.). regarding the fuzzy nature of plagiarism..when is something not mine or yours anymore...where does paraphrasing fit in the scheme? Once I have given birth to an idea,(extrapolated from my enviroment) created anything...and have shared such with others...is it really mine to hold onto anymore? Perhaps that question might be better suited to the philosophy thread. oh well. I understand that someone's means of housing, clothing, and feeding themselves might be at stake... Is it okay to brainstorm here?

03-20-2008, 09:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	American Idol is completely free to watch on local TV. I don't see how one could call that theft. The most downloaded torrents over the past year have been off network TV. Right now? Shows like New Amsterdam, wrestling, Law and Order, Surviver, Lost, and CSI are being downloaded a lot... and all of these shows are free on TV and many one can even stream from the website of the network on which they air! How in the world one can suggest this is theft is beyond me. And music? I still have a deck from the 1980s that can record radio onto a cassette, but I don't see the RIAA breaking down my door to get all my tapes of Nirvana from the early 90s. I never saw the RIAA taking a hard stance against Sony AM/FM tape decks. Either you're downloading something popular that one could easily get off the radio or you're downloading something rare that one may only be able to get off myspace (which is also free, of course). Even movies! I was watching Batman Begins on to the other day and could have recorded it legally to my DVR without having to pay a dime to Warner. I can't for the life of me understand why these things are theft simply because they are downloaded.

03-20-2008, 09:59 AM	#14 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The obvious fix to this is product placement. If one could advertise in a way that's not removed by those who create torrents, then they would still be getting the advertising that is paying for the entertainment.