Daniel_

...and don't deserve children.

Yesterday, we went to London to see the Lion King at the Lyceum.

It's a brilliant show, by the way.

After it was over, we wandered along the Strand to Charring Cross, and went into the Pizza Express opposite the station.

It's on two floors, with one dining room on street level, and another in the basement.

We were eating in the ground floor dining room, and our table was by the door to the foyer area, which itself has the door onto the street.

Yesterday in London was thick fog, and at the time (6pm) the sun had gone down, so it was like a fifties movie - all red busses and zero visibility.

Half way through our meal, a little girl (about 2-3 years old) toddled up the stairs on her own into the foyer area, and looked about for someone. She was evidently in distress, and seeing an open door to the street, she toddled out into the gloom. I waited a second for her adult to come haring up the stairs after her, but nothing. Another kid (boy, aged about 4-5) followed her up the stairs and watched her leave the front door.

I jumped up and went into the street after her, and by the time I was out the door she'd got to the corner and was almost out of sight. Mrs Daniel_ followed me up and stopped the boy from walking out.

I took her back to the restaurant (which caused her to start screaming her lungs out, because a strange man had picked her up and was taking her away), and when I got back to the restaurant there were STILL no parents in sight. I sat the kid down on a sofa in the foyer and waited another moment before a very well dressed middle class family came up the stairs struggling under the weight of a hugely expensive pram. Mrs Daniel_ explained to the mother what had happened.

I spoke to the father and said "She'd gone down the road."

He grunted.

We went back to our meal, and the mother set about strapping the girl into the buggy. The father went back downstairs to get the second pushchair. The third child (a girl aged about 5) wandered out the front door into the street, while mother's back was turned buttoning up the boy's coat.

At that moment the father came back, and grabbed the wandering off girl to put her into the second pushchair.

After all of this, the guy popped his head round the door and said - "Thanks - they get away from you sometimes, don't they?".

OF COURSE THEY Spoiler: FUCKING DO YOU STUPID Spoiler: CUNT!

YOU'VE GOT THREE CHILDREN, AND TWO BUGGIES TO BRING UP THE STAIRS - WHY THE Spoiler: BOLLOCKING HELL DID YOU SEND THE TWO CHILDREN UP FIRST?

Spoiler: Wanker.

Clearly he had three children to make sure one of them survives his stupidity.

Also - to all the people at the bus stop that watched a small unaccompanied child toddle down the street on a cold night not wearing a coat - I hope you suffer the torments of the damned.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Meditrina

They are so lucky that a person like you was there to stop that child. and even though the parents did not seem to care that their children were wandering about or appreciate what you did, you have earned many gold stars for your actions.

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"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

analog

I'd have reported it to child services. That's all I'm going to say about this.

And I'm confused by your censorship.

Daniel_

Doesn't work quite like that in the UK - in the US I'd have hailed the nearest policeman, phoned Homeland Security, and the father would have been off to Guantanamo for Christmas.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

TotalMILF

WOW. I would've grabbed a witness and taken the kid to a nearby business (not the same one she ran out of) and waited for the police to arrive. The kid could've EASILY been hit by a bus and killed! Stupid, neglectful parents don't deserve children. *grumble*

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"I'm sorry, all I heard was blah blah blah, I'm a dirty tramp."

Willravel

Just FYI, the UK does have a CPS type system in place.

It's a good thing the Martin_s were there to save the day. Those children may survive because of the kindness and concern of strangers yet.

Hain

Oh... if only it worked like that. I can still dream.

The parents are friggin narcissists, too busy to be bothered in order to take care of their kids.

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////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

analog

Not for nothing, but this could most likely still result in a charge of kidnapping, regardless of what caused it. You can't hold anyone, including a child, against their will. If you took the child to another building because you couldn't find the parents and the building was on fire, that'd be a different story- basically if your reason wasn't that you had to remove and hold them to keep them from mortal danger, you can still get in trouble. There are better ways to make certain the children are safe.

A guy I went to EMT school with once mentioned that he saw a woman flat-out PUNCH (closed fist, not a slap) her 5 or 6 year old daughter in a store. He started calling the police right away, and told the woman he was doing so, then ran out and got in his car and pulled up to the front of the building. Sure enough, she comes hauling out of the store, yanking the child behind. He followed her to her car and parked right behind her so she couldn't get out until the cops came. 4 police cars pulled up... one cop went inside to see if it was caught on surveillance cam, one was a female officer who took the child into her car immediately, and the other two started questioning her. A minute or two after the cops arrived, an ambulance pulled up.

If you live in the states, your best bet is your state's child services (sometimes called department of children and families, or something to that effect)...

1. call the police
2. when the police arrive, explain what happened and that you'd like to report them to child services- the point of this is that the parents obviously aren't going to volunteer their home address to you. Or, get their license plate number. Child services can have it traced.
3. encourage other eye-witnesses to call in and report what they saw as well. The more witnesses who call in, the better. Every single witness should feel personally responsible for making sure that it gets properly reported.

People in medical professions are required by law in my state, and most others, to report child abuse/neglect (among other things). It's not something to take lightly, so don't feel like calling is a waste of time or "making a big deal". I've called in on 4 or 5 people with small children in their cars (usually minivans) who were not wearing seat-belts. Like.. walking around, moving around the cabin, unrestrained. Of course, that was after I'd called the police.

--------------------------------------------------------

Short story about one of them, skip it if you want...

On one, I ended up following the woman until a police car pulled her over. she had 3 kids, the youngest I couldn't tell but looked younger than 4, and the oldest looked 5 or 6, absolute tops. They were running around in the back of the cabin of the van, and would periodically run up to the front, stand between the front seats and talk to mom or look out the front, and then run back. It was a female officer who responded. I pulled over when she pulled her over. I told the cop I wanted information so I could report her properly. I was so pissed, it was obvious to the cop. The cop comes right back after looking into the van, and now she's pissed, too. She says to me, "wouldn't you like to just... curse her out?" and i said, "if only I could". She walks over to the car, yanks the door open and tells the woman to get out, walks her over to where I am, about 15 feet away, and says, "go for it".

I kept a calm tone and said that I was reporting her to child services, making a statement in the police report to make it public record, and hoped that the officer used every possible law on the books to charge her with for "so grossly and recklessly endangering the lives" of her three tiny children, who we found out were 6, 3, and 2. I realized that no amount of cursing or yelling would make me as happy, or have as much impact on her, as simply telling her: "you are a horrible, terrible, awful mother, and you should be ashamed of yourself."

That made her cry. Like... she started bawling. I was so mad at her stupidity and carelessness that her crying made me smile.

Another police car was pulling up, and she put the woman in the back of her car. She had the other officer watch the kids in the van, and she came back to me to get my statement. She says to me, "you know, I can't curse her out, and I was SO hoping you would, as a bystander, but I think this is much better. You made her CRY." and then she chuckled a little. She got the woman's home address (now public record on the report she was filing, for whatever she ended up being charged with) and gave it to me so I could report it to supplement the statement.

Daniel_

The family made a mistake and it was solved.

They didn't need social services intervening. The guy just needs to learn logic and politeness.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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filtherton

I wouldn't say the guy was necessarily an idiot. Momentary lapses happen, and i would probably require more than one instance of something like this to feel equipped to judge these folks.

Then again, this is the internet...

Manic_Skafe

I know it isn't easy but it can't be that hard to give them the benefit of the doubt.

That's undeniably funny but you can't seriously believe that the hour or two (at most) in which your paths crossed is sufficient enough time to come to any conclusion in particular about them. Surely, "being a parent is a full-time job" but it's not hard to imagine how difficult (read: impossible) it must be to provide three small children with 24/7 parental supervision.

I'm not excusing the careless manner in which they cared for their children that night, I just can't understand why you and your wife would walk away feeling like your efforts had only postponed the certain death that those children must face as the result of their parents negligence rather than feeling like you two had done something nice for a few people that needed it.

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snowy

I see shit like this all the time. In fact, one of my biggest pet peeves is parents who haven't taken the time to teach their children basic safety procedures, like holding hands with an adult in a parking lot, or to follow through with following basic safety procedures.

As a childcare worker, I believe it is my duty to keep children safe, even safer than their parents keep them. All of the kids who have been in my care longer than a month know they are 1) not to ever step out of line of sight, and 2) if under the age of 5, to hold hands while crossing a street or in a parking lot.

We don't know what happened downstairs before the child came up. It could have been that the parent instructed the child not to go, but children often don't listen, so the parent has the duty to see that the child does not leave their line of sight. Furthermore, the better solution would have been for one parent to take all of the children upstairs or stay with all of them downstairs, until the prams were brought upstairs. But some people--many people--lack simple common sense.

Personally, my kids know that if they fail to listen in the house, I will not take them outside of the house. They know that if we are out and about, and I tell them to do something, they had better do it, or else we'll not be going out again. But I am often surprised at how many parents are unwilling to take this tack with their children, and how many parents take their kids to places that are perfectly unsuitable for kids.

Really, your entire story tells me that these people lack even the most basic parenting skills. And that sickens me.

__________________
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dlish

i knew those guys werent in there for terrorism... they must have all left there kids wandering round or something


on a serious note.. ive seen it too many times before..and i always promise myself that my kids would be different..

the funny thing is..im sure thats what those parents would have said aboutthemselves too...

so what makes a good parent?

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Daniel_

In this case, it was totally avoidable.

The natural barricade of the buggy blocking the stairs should have been used to let the Mother supervise the three kids, not prevent the Father and Mother from supervising the first two kids.

And they screwed up on the second chance too, when they nearly lost the middle kid out the door.

Don't forget that I AM a parent, and left my own child on her own in the place as I ran out the door to rescue theirs.

We're not talking about a kid bumbling out into the street in Hicksville (pop: 7), we're talking about one of the largest and busiest cities in the world - and only one street away from the dead centre. Anyone reasonable would have had their head screwed on a little better.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

HN420

Good thing you were there, would of been so sad if something had happened to those kids.

Infinite_Loser

As I sift through some of the responses I sit here and wonder to myself what happened to the "Worry-about-your-own-family/Don't-judge-me-based-on-how-I-raise-my-family" attitude which most TFP'ers seem to have? Or are those arguments only suitable when they suit you?

To say that someone doesn't deserve their children based on one observed incident is, kindly put, fairly ignorant.

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analog

We're talking about saving a child from immediate threat of danger, not whether or not someone is a bad parent if their brat runs around in a restaurant.

There's a bit of a difference, and it's in the "mortal danger" aspect of this discussion. Did you really not get that, or are you just looking to get people riled up for no reason, like usual?

LoganSnake

Actually, for the first time, I agree with IL. I go by the "mind your own fucking business" mentality with a few exceptions. Yes, what Daniel did was great. Something could've happened to the kids and he possibly prevented it. My beef is with "trigger happy" Americans who report families to child services. It really grinds my gears when passers by get involved into something that clearly doesn't involve them, such as parenting of another child. Sure, if the child is seen being severely beaten, I can see that being an advantage, however, I am personally acquainted with a man who almost lost his parenting rights for giving his son a spank on the ass at a grocery store because he wouldn't stop screaming to buy him a certain cereal he wanted. Some old lady thought of it as child abuse and called child services. I won't go into details, but those who have been through it probably know the hell it is to deal with them.

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Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Daniel_

QFT

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

analog

I don't disagree with you, but you've constructed an entire beef with "trigger happy Americans" over one incident caused by one old woman. That's clearly your personal bias. I'm sure it was an ordeal for your friend, but it doesn't seem to support an entire "beef".

LoganSnake

I just provided one example of a person I actually know. I know more stories through my parents.

Also,

I think it's excessive in this case. Very much so.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

ScottKuma

The problem here isn't with the old lady, but with the fact that in today's (American) society, police/child services can't keep their mitts off of a chance to completely ruin the life of a probably awesome parent in every other case.

America's current stance on spanking has, in my opinion, become a LOT ridiculous. Spanking (defined as a quick one or two smacks on the bottom or the back of a hand) is in NO way child abuse! In many cases there is no other way to get the attention of a two-four year old whose brain capacity is not able to comprehend the kindly-said logic of "don't run into the street, Johnny! You might get hurt!"

That being said, I have done my best to only used spanking where my kids
would be injured through disobedience. They remember the smack on the bottom as a consequence to their actions...and generally don't DO those things again!

Please note that I have defined spanking quite rigidly. I do NOT consider spanking (with a hand) as otherwise defined above to be abuse. However, I've heard stories of my friends being beaten silly, or spanked with paddles, belts, cords, etc. I'm quite certain that THOSE were true cases of abuse where our police & legal system's time would have been well-spent.

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Kung Fu Kid

Daniel! You are a good person. Most folks would turn a blind eye to that situation.

guy44

I happen to be an employee of one of America's state child protection agencies. I'm not with the Department of Child Protection, a division of my agency, which is tasked with investigating complaints of abuse and neglect, so I can't speak with authority on this specific issue. But I can tell you that there are way, way more terrible parents out there then is easy to comprehend. And the reality is that given the sheer number of horrible people in charge of children, child welfare agencies simply cannot ignore allegations of abuse. I hope everything turned out for the best, and that the case you are referring to is an aberration, but your ire should be focused on the abusive parents and mothers giving birth to crack babies, not the woefully underfunded agencies trying desperately to help kids.

I know I'm biased on this, but I can tell you that from the inside, what we really need is less complaints about the "nanny state" and more resources devoted to ensuring the horrible parents out there are found (and the innocent ones accused of wrongdoing are identified, as well).

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analog

Congratulations, you have an opinion. Fortunately, so do I... and when two kids could have wandered off into oblivion, only to have the third nearly make off as well, my opinion is that these parents are reckless as all get-out, and I wonder how they function as parents at home. It's that type of carelessness and "letting them get out of sight" that causes abductions and pool drownings- which happens way too often around here.

So, believe it to be excessive or not- I'd rather go with "safe" than "sorry"- literally.

Infinite_Loser

No, I wasn't trying to get people riled up "For no reason, like usual". No one's perfect. People make mistakes. Did you miss the part where I said something about labeling someone as "Undeserving of their kids based" on one single incident?

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LoganSnake

Yeah, but I'm of the opinion that it's none of your business. Kids wonder off. It happens. Doesn't mean the parents are bad and it's not up to you or anyone to pass that judgment. It could've been a one time occurrence in an otherwise perfect family.

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genuinegirly

Some parents have more kids than they can handle.

So natural selection steps in and wipes out a few.

Unless someone stops to help.

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stevie667

I know the resturaunt, bloody muppets!

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ItWasMe

It's easy to lose a small child in the blink of an eye. I know, I've done it. She yanked her hand out of mine, ran through the hanging display of clothing, and kept going. My mom guarded the escalator and the cashier watched the elevator/exit doors while I found her. She managed to crawl into a stroller in a buggy display and sat there watching me run by, and run by, and run by, while calling her. So it took me a few minutes to get my paws back on her.

The difference is that I actually cared that I had lost her, and started searching for her immediately. It doesn't sound like these parents did. Good job, Daniel. On behalf of the little girl, thanks.

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analog

Maybe. But it was a one-time occurrence that nearly resulted in them losing all 3 children, by the end of it. And then, there's this part of it:

They pretty much shrugged it off. Like it was nothing. I can't believe that it could be that simple.

I'll just agree to disagree with you, since this is purely a matter of opinion.

owlbill

I only read the opening post, but this reminds me of parents taking small children grocery shopping, and leaving them in the cart while looking at something else. I actually saw one child tip the cart over and fall on their face. Their weight was enough to tip the empty shopping cart.

Kaimi

It is very different in the context that you are stating. I remember seeing a frantic mother in a Target store once. She was in obvious distress, tears running down her face calling for her child. A moment I will not forget. The staff of the store quickly called for a code (I believe it was code Adam though I may be mistaken) The entire store was locked in, no one allowed to leave, police were called. I have never seen such an amazing act of human cooperation with so many helping this woman find her child(though they were all locked in until this was solved).

Soon after this was done a giggling two-year-old was discovered hiding in some store display not far from where I found the woman. I do not think this woman was at all being neglectful, she had simply been looking at a rack of clothing, her child had been situated at her side holding on to her purse where he always was when she was shopping. Two-year-olds are unpredictable, he became bored and found his own game to pass the time.

On a lighter note, the woman as soon as she found him left for the children's section and purchased one of those leashes. I cannot say I was ever fond of the idea of leashing children like that, but I can definitely say after a scare like that I would likely have considered one myself.

Cynthetiq

I stopped caring about other people's children.

My life is much much simpler now.

If someone's child is abducted because the parent didn't mind it? Not my problem.

This "takes a village" crap is just that, they don't pay me to be a babysitter for their child, I'm not volunteering.

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LoganSnake

My sister was leashed shortly after she learned to walk because she had a habit of running away from my mom laughing maniacally.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Kaimi

Hehe, at least if she was laughing you could find her. Can't say I blame your parents though.

HamiC

Well said. Being a parent is hard. Sometimes you make poor decisions. May we all be so lucky as to have the opportunity to learn from our mistakes.

allaboutmusic

Some parents are bloody idiots... working as a classroom teacher, I've had students whose parents could barely take care of themselves, never mind their kids. These are 12 year old kids who end up parenting two or three younger siblings, picking them up from school, cooking dinner for them and putting them to bed before their father arrives home drunk. You have to have a license and pass a test before you are allowed control of a car, I sometimes think the same should be expected if you have control of a child's life.

Grasshopper Green

Wow. I'm glad you're not my neighbor.

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Formerly Medusa

Daniel_

Well said.

There should be an exam to pass before being allowed to operate a set of genitals.

I'd fail the oral deliberately, and need to do several re-takes.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝