Trying to return that purse may get you arrested - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 11-28-2007, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Dragnet That Ensnares Good Samaritans, Too
By JIM DWYER
LINK
At first, an epidemic of absent-mindedness seemed to have broken out.

One purse was found just sitting on a display shelf in the shoe department at Macy’s. Another one turned up downstairs, in Macy’s Cellar. Yet another rested on a chair in a Midtown McDonald’s, left by a woman who had stepped into the restroom.

In fact, all three items had been planted by police officers in plainclothes during the previous six weeks. And the three people who picked them up were arrested, and now face indictment on charges that could land them in state prison.

Nine months ago, a similar police decoy program called Operation Lucky Bag was effectively shut down by prosecutors and judges who were concerned that it was sweeping up the civic-minded alongside those bent on larceny. Shopping bags, backpacks and purses were left around the subway system, then stealthily watched by undercover officers. They arrested anyone who took the items and walked past a police officer in uniform without reporting the discovery.

Now, a new version of the operation has started to catch people in public places outside the subways, and at much higher stakes, Criminal Court records show.

Unlike the initial program, in which the props were worth at most a few hundred dollars, the bags are now salted with real American Express cards, issued under pseudonyms to the Police Department.

Because the theft of a credit card is grand larceny, a Class E felony, those convicted could face sentences of up to four years. The charges in the first round of Operation Lucky Bag were nearly all petty larceny, a misdemeanor, with a maximum penalty of one year in jail.

OVER the years, decoy operations have proved to be very effective in flushing out criminals lurking in public places. They also have a history of misfires involving innocent people who stumbled into a piece of theater in the routine drama of city life.

When Lucky Bag began in February 2006, among its first 220 arrests were about 100 people who had prior charges and convictions. Police officials said those arrests helped drive down crime in the subways by about 13 percent.

However, more than half of those 220 involved people with no prior criminal record. In dismissing one case, a Brooklyn judge noted that the law gives people 10 days to turn in property they find, and suggested the city had enough real crime for the police to fight without any need to provide fresh temptations. The penal law also does not require that found items be turned over to a police officer. The Manhattan District Attorney’s Office began to dismiss Lucky Bag charges.

“We spoke with N.Y.P.D.’s legal division and the transit bureau so they would understand the essentials needed for prosecution, because the early arrests were being made on faulty premises,” said Barbara Thompson, a spokeswoman for the office. “There must be evidence that the taker did not intend to return the property.”

Sneaky behavior — like trying to hide a found wallet, or slipping money out and leaving a purse behind — could show that the person meant to steal the valuables. Those instructions were added to a prosecutors’ handbook.

In February, Aquarius Cheers, a 31-year-old Manhattan man who said he was on a shopping expedition with his wife, spotted a Verizon shopping bag with a cellphone and iPod inside at the 59th Street station of the No. 1 train.

As he was looking in the bag, a train arrived. Mr. Cheers said he and his wife boarded, rushed past a uniformed officer, bringing along the bag with the intention of looking for a receipt. Undercover officers then grabbed him. After his case was reported by NY1, the prosecutors vacated the charges.

A spokesman for the Police Department took questions yesterday about the revived decoy operations, but did not provide any answers.

So far, lawyers at the Legal Aid Society have identified four pending felony cases arising from the decoys. The police complaints describe suspicious behavior. For instance, after a 50-year-old man picked up the purse left in the Macy’s shoe department, he put it in a shoe box and carried it to the other side of the store, a complaint said. Then he took the wallet out of the purse, put it in his pocket, and left the shoe box and purse behind, according to the police. That case is pending.

“We want to make sure these are not people intending to return wallets or found property,” Ms. Thompson said.

I find this to be interesting. I've never returned a wallet to a police office. I will however return it to the nearest point of contact, so if it is a store, a register, if it is a subway station, the clerk. I never think of handing something over to a police officer.

edit: NY has NO rules against entrapment. Many taxi cab drivers get busted in prostitution sting becase they are stopping to pick up a fare.

Ustwo · 11-28-2007, 01:54 PM

I have no problem with properly done entrapment.

I've seen some great video years ago of cops posing as drunks or sleeping on the subway getting robbed. One has the guy bragging about it to the other undercover cop. Its far easier to have criminals come to you than you try to catch them in the circumstance.

Obviously the 'bag' issue seems off BUT if they wait till someone uses the phony credit card, then I'm all for it. You can innocently pick up a bag, you can't innocently use someone elses credit card.

ring · 11-28-2007, 02:05 PM

Reminds me a bit of 'Bait Car'

Thank you for putting this up Cynthetiq.

I am confused about the law here, Is it a felony to steal these cards
contained in the purse or in attempting to use them?

There are many points to discuss here.

QuasiMondo · 11-28-2007, 04:39 PM

You get arrested for simply walking away with the 'misplaced' bag. Because it contains a platinum AmEx card, they can bump it up to a felony. They won't wait to see if you intend on trying to find the owner on your own, and this is entrapment.

The 'bait car' theory doesn't fly with me simply because with a bait car, the act of entering the vehicle and driving off with it proves an intent to steal the car. It's not so easy to prove intent with a purse laying there. Purses get misplaced, cars don't. Nobody takes a car home, checks the registration, and then call the owner to say, "hey, I found your car sitting at the corner of 125th and Lenox. Where do you want to meet me to pick it up?"

In any case, if the police have the manpower and time to sit around and wait for somebody to pick up a bag they left laying there, then they have manpower and time to do more productive things, like getting involved in community affairs programs so people can actually trust the police.

Randle2I · 11-28-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYTimes

When Lucky Bag began in February 2006, among its first 220 arrests were about 100 people who had prior charges and convictions. Police officials said those arrests helped drive down crime in the subways by about 13 percent.

However, more than half of those 220 involved people with no prior criminal record. In dismissing one case, a Brooklyn judge noted that the law gives people 10 days to turn in property they find, and suggested the city had enough real crime for the police to fight without any need to provide fresh temptations. The penal law also does not require that found items be turned over to a police officer. The Manhattan District Attorney’s Office began to dismiss Lucky Bag charges.

1) How did they come up with the 13 percent figure?

2) So their wasting tax payers dollars on entrapping more than 110 people. Sounds like a brilliant plan to me, lets waste money on a crime bust that has less than a 50% success rate. I realize that every little bit helps, but this idea seems like it needs to cook a little bit longer. When and if they come out with a way that catches actual criminals instead of your regular joe's then I'll be behind it.

inBOIL · 11-28-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuasiMondo

Because it contains a platinum AmEx card, they can bump it up to a felony. They won't wait to see if you intend on trying to find the owner on your own, and this is entrapment.

This is an interesting distinction. It seems that many of these people are arrested before they become aware of what's in the wallet/purse. Even if we assume that their intent is theft, I don't see how it's fair to punish someone more severely because of the presence of a credit card. If you don't know what's in the wallet you're stealing, shouldn't the penalty be the same whether it happens to be a credit card or a few bucks?

Psycho Dad · 11-28-2007, 05:10 PM

This is lazy police work IMHO. It would be an interesting glimpse into human behavior but it is no way police work. Petty larceny or grand larceny doesn't matter. Is there such a problem in NYC or anywhere for that matter with people not returning lost or misplaced items that the law needs to trap these people? I'd also bet that very few if any of the people entrapped by this crack detective work ever served any real time if any at all for not turning these purses in.

Beyond that, imagine the resources wasted on this. This isn't Barney Fife setting a trap to see who walks out of Wally's Station without paying for gas. This was a group effort and they went as far as tagging it Operation Lucky Bag. Then there is the prosecutor's time. Have the N.Y.P.D not caught anyone more worthy of prosecution than this?

Ustwo · 11-28-2007, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Beyond that, imagine the resources wasted on this. This isn't Barney Fife setting a trap to see who walks out of Wally's Station without paying for gas. This was a group effort and they went as far as tagging it Operation Lucky Bag. Then there is the prosecutor's time. Have the N.Y.P.D not caught anyone more worthy of prosecution than this?

The assumption is that in doing something like this, resources that could be used fighting 'real' crime are not being used for said crimes?

How many people do 'real' time for stealing a purse? By setting traps like this is sends a message to the criminals that not all 'easy' targets are really easy targets.

I'm not sure why this would be so offensive to anyone provided it was done in such a way as to not entrap otherwise law abiding citizens.

Psycho Dad · 11-28-2007, 05:43 PM

Entrapping otherwise law abiding citizens is a side effect of this. The surprise that they do something like this instead of actually trying to solve a problem is what most people I think find foul.

Ustwo · 11-28-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Entrapping otherwise law abiding citizens is a side effect of this. The surprise that they do something like this instead of actually trying to solve a problem is what most people I think find foul.

Which problem should they have solved? Petty theft?

ItWasMe · 11-28-2007, 09:00 PM

We have found a couple of wallets over the years, in parking lots. We took them to a phone nearby, found phone numbers, and called the owners. Returned those wallets to their owners. If we couldn't find a phone number, we would have turned it in to a nearby business (whose parking lot we were in). That wasn't our first choice, since we knew that as long as we had it, and were looking for the owner, the wallet was safe. It never once occured to us to be worried about police entrapment.

Note to self: forget about being a good samaritan in New York if I ever visit.

dksuddeth · 11-29-2007, 02:34 AM

certain kinds of 'entrapment' are perfectly understandable, bait cars for one, but I have a serious problem (and everyone else should too) that law enforcement officers can stand on a street corner or inhabit a crack house and sell illegal drugs, which is illegal unless you're an 'only one'. nobody should be above the law, including cops.

Psycho Dad · 11-29-2007, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Which problem should they have solved? Petty theft?

Petty theft I think would be low on the priority list. And I'm not saying this crack team of investigators are needed to search for Jimmy Hoffa either. But this type of operation is as I said IMHO lazy police work. Hell... Even one of these cops walking in uniform around Dillards would have perhaps done more to prevent simple shoplifting than catching someone who won't return a lost handbag or wallet.

river_ratiii · 11-29-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItWasMe

We have found a couple of wallets over the years, in parking lots. We took them to a phone nearby, found phone numbers, and called the owners. Returned those wallets to their owners. If we couldn't find a phone number, we would have turned it in to a nearby business (whose parking lot we were in). That wasn't our first choice, since we knew that as long as we had it, and were looking for the owner, the wallet was safe. It never once occured to us to be worried about police entrapment.

Note to self: forget about being a good samaritan in New York if I ever visit.

This is what I would normally do too. Imagine picking up a wallet in a parking lot as you were entering your car. Now, do you just ignore it or pick it up and get into your car and start looking for the owner?

I guess my instinct would still be to try to find the owner because in that position I'd hope someone would do the same for me...but the idea that I'm committing some kind of crime is chilling!

ring · 11-29-2007, 07:29 AM

I realize the difference between bait cars and what the under-cover offficers
were attempting with the handbags.

I don't understand how the contents of said handbag change the law.

If it were stuffed with pipe bombs, government secrets, and a map to Jimmy Hoffas grave, what then?

This law frightens me. I have returned a few wallets to very gratefull people.
This won't deter me from doing it again.

biznatch · 11-29-2007, 09:16 AM

Wow, the only thing this can result in is if you drop your wallet, nobody will pick it up, because they'd get handcuffs slapped on them as soon as they opened the wallet to find contact info.
I've found cell phones in cabs, and obviously you go through them and call some of the numbers inside to try and return it to it's owner. If I found a credit card I would call the bank to try and find the owner.
This is why nobody trusts the cops.

Although I do agree with other that bait cars are a great idea, bait bags are definitely not a good way to catch criminals.

Ustwo · 11-29-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

Petty theft I think would be low on the priority list. And I'm not saying this crack team of investigators are needed to search for Jimmy Hoffa either. But this type of operation is as I said IMHO lazy police work. Hell... Even one of these cops walking in uniform around Dillards would have perhaps done more to prevent simple shoplifting than catching someone who won't return a lost handbag or wallet.

Sure its lazy and effective.

Work smarter not harder

I"m not defending the bag thing, I am defending the concept though.

QuasiMondo · 11-29-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The assumption is that in doing something like this, resources that could be used fighting 'real' crime are not being used for said crimes?

How many people do 'real' time for stealing a purse? By setting traps like this is sends a message to the criminals that not all 'easy' targets are really easy targets.

I'm not sure why this would be so offensive to anyone provided it was done in such a way as to not entrap otherwise law abiding citizens.

Because it's not done in such a way as to not entrap otherwise law abiding citizens.

Psycho Dad · 11-29-2007, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I"m not defending the bag thing, I am defending the concept though.

That's the page I'm on. Were there something that this operation could be applied to that would give the taxpayers a return on their investment this would be great. But handbags be they full of platimum cedit cards or baseball cards isn't it.

Terrell · 11-29-2007, 03:56 PM

As a person who once had a lost wallet returned to me, with everything inside it intact, I find this troubling. This could easily fall into the category of "no good deed goes unpunished"

blahblah454 · 11-29-2007, 07:51 PM

Wow reading this makes me really mad. I have found a wallet before and the first thing I did was open it up to look for ID to see if the person was around, they weren't and I gave it to the manager who worked at the store. Now what do you think would happen to me if a cop saw me pick up the purse or wallet and see me "paw through it". I would probably be on my ass in a jail somewhere for trying to help. I say fuck that.

11-28-2007, 01:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I have no problem with properly done entrapment. I've seen some great video years ago of cops posing as drunks or sleeping on the subway getting robbed. One has the guy bragging about it to the other undercover cop. Its far easier to have criminals come to you than you try to catch them in the circumstance. Obviously the 'bag' issue seems off BUT if they wait till someone uses the phony credit card, then I'm all for it. You can innocently pick up a bag, you can't innocently use someone elses credit card. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

11-28-2007, 04:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	You get arrested for simply walking away with the 'misplaced' bag. Because it contains a platinum AmEx card, they can bump it up to a felony. They won't wait to see if you intend on trying to find the owner on your own, and this is entrapment. The 'bait car' theory doesn't fly with me simply because with a bait car, the act of entering the vehicle and driving off with it proves an intent to steal the car. It's not so easy to prove intent with a purse laying there. Purses get misplaced, cars don't. Nobody takes a car home, checks the registration, and then call the owner to say, "hey, I found your car sitting at the corner of 125th and Lenox. Where do you want to meet me to pick it up?" In any case, if the police have the manpower and time to sit around and wait for somebody to pick up a bag they left laying there, then they have manpower and time to do more productive things, like getting involved in community affairs programs so people can actually trust the police. __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

11-28-2007, 05:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	This is lazy police work IMHO. It would be an interesting glimpse into human behavior but it is no way police work. Petty larceny or grand larceny doesn't matter. Is there such a problem in NYC or anywhere for that matter with people not returning lost or misplaced items that the law needs to trap these people? I'd also bet that very few if any of the people entrapped by this crack detective work ever served any real time if any at all for not turning these purses in. Beyond that, imagine the resources wasted on this. This isn't Barney Fife setting a trap to see who walks out of Wally's Station without paying for gas. This was a group effort and they went as far as tagging it Operation Lucky Bag. Then there is the prosecutor's time. Have the N.Y.P.D not caught anyone more worthy of prosecution than this? __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

11-28-2007, 05:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	Entrapping otherwise law abiding citizens is a side effect of this. The surprise that they do something like this instead of actually trying to solve a problem is what most people I think find foul. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

11-28-2007, 09:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
ItWasMe But You'll Never Prove It. Location: under your bed	We have found a couple of wallets over the years, in parking lots. We took them to a phone nearby, found phone numbers, and called the owners. Returned those wallets to their owners. If we couldn't find a phone number, we would have turned it in to a nearby business (whose parking lot we were in). That wasn't our first choice, since we knew that as long as we had it, and were looking for the owner, the wallet was safe. It never once occured to us to be worried about police entrapment. Note to self: forget about being a good samaritan in New York if I ever visit. __________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez I bake cookies just so I can lick the bowl. ~ ItWasMe Last edited by ItWasMe; 11-28-2007 at 09:05 PM..

11-28-2007, 02:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Reminds me a bit of 'Bait Car' Thank you for putting this up Cynthetiq. I am confused about the law here, Is it a felony to steal these cards contained in the purse or in attempting to use them? There are many points to discuss here.

11-29-2007, 02:34 AM	#12 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	certain kinds of 'entrapment' are perfectly understandable, bait cars for one, but I have a serious problem (and everyone else should too) that law enforcement officers can stand on a street corner or inhabit a crack house and sell illegal drugs, which is illegal unless you're an 'only one'. nobody should be above the law, including cops. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

11-29-2007, 07:29 AM	#15 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	I realize the difference between bait cars and what the under-cover offficers were attempting with the handbags. I don't understand how the contents of said handbag change the law. If it were stuffed with pipe bombs, government secrets, and a map to Jimmy Hoffas grave, what then? This law frightens me. I have returned a few wallets to very gratefull people. This won't deter me from doing it again. Last edited by ring; 11-29-2007 at 07:32 AM.. Reason: spelling

11-29-2007, 09:16 AM	#16 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	Wow, the only thing this can result in is if you drop your wallet, nobody will pick it up, because they'd get handcuffs slapped on them as soon as they opened the wallet to find contact info. I've found cell phones in cabs, and obviously you go through them and call some of the numbers inside to try and return it to it's owner. If I found a credit card I would call the bank to try and find the owner. This is why nobody trusts the cops. Although I do agree with other that bait cars are a great idea, bait bags are definitely not a good way to catch criminals. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

11-29-2007, 03:56 PM	#20 (permalink)
Terrell Insane Location: Orlando, Florida	As a person who once had a lost wallet returned to me, with everything inside it intact, I find this troubling. This could easily fall into the category of "no good deed goes unpunished"

11-29-2007, 07:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	Wow reading this makes me really mad. I have found a wallet before and the first thing I did was open it up to look for ID to see if the person was around, they weren't and I gave it to the manager who worked at the store. Now what do you think would happen to me if a cop saw me pick up the purse or wallet and see me "paw through it". I would probably be on my ass in a jail somewhere for trying to help. I say fuck that.