Japan wants to resume commerical whaling - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

trecool · 06-19-2003, 01:15 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=3...es_and_Whaling

Japan Looks to Resume Whale Hunts
(AP) - Japan said Thursday it would look for ways to resume the commercial hunting of whales as it accused the United States of worsening a rift among nations on the international commission established to regulate whaling. Minoru Morimoto, Japan's chief delegate to the International Whaling Commission, expressed frustration after the 50-member body approved a new panel to improve conservation efforts and blocked his government's request to hunt 300 whales a year.

gov135 · 06-19-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trecool
[url]Minoru Morimoto, Japan's chief delegate to the International Whaling Commission, expressed frustration after the 50-member body approved a new panel to improve conservation efforts and blocked his government's request to hunt 300 whales a year.

They can't hunt 300 whales a year? It's a ceremonial thing for them. Are we missing 300 lousy whales? It's not like they asked for open season on the things. That would upset me. But less than one a day? Won't get my drawers in a bunch.

krwlz · 06-19-2003, 05:44 PM

I got no problems with it

hatukaze · 06-19-2003, 11:06 PM

Japan has hunted minke, bryde’s and sperm whales for scientific research since 1987.

Eating whale meat is far more environmentally-friendly than eating beef, lamb or pork. Harvesting nature's surplus means that biodiversity and habitat does not have to be destroyed and turned into agricultural land.

You can find som good information at http://www.highnorth.no/

Antagony · 06-19-2003, 11:20 PM

Yeah. Let them hunt their whales. Whales have many uses, very little is wasted. Not to mention that people shouldn't interfere with other cultures.

CatchTwentyFour · 06-20-2003, 01:09 AM

I think the same was said (Hunt them if you want, we got tons to spare) of the Buffalo, and just look what happened to them.

That's right, all of them refused to quit smoking, and died of throat and lung cancer.

I think we could all learn a lesson from those majestic cancer ridden creatures.

cchris · 06-20-2003, 03:44 AM

The next time a cow makes an intelligent sound or motion that may be on par with Humans re communication then and only then will I change my mind about a BBQ.

trecool · 06-20-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Antagony
Yeah. Let them hunt their whales. Whales have many uses, very little is wasted. Not to mention that people shouldn't interfere with other cultures.

http://www.seaworld.org/AnimalBytes/...redwhales.html

species population status and listings*
northern right whale 500-1,000 endangered (ESA, IUCN)
southern right whale 3,000 endangered (ESA); vulunerable (IUCN)
bowhead whale 8,000 endangered (ESA, IUCN)
blue whale 10,000-14,000 endangered (ESA, IUCN)
fin whale 120,000-150,000 endangered (ESA); vulnerable (IUCN)
sei whale 50,000 endangered (ESA)
humpback whale 10,000+ endangered (ESA, IUCN)
sperm whale 200,000 endangered (ESA)
vaquita a few hundred endangered (ESA)
baiji about 300 endangered (ESA, IUCN)
Indus susu 500 endangered (ESA, IUCN)
Ganges susu unknown vulnerable (IUCN)
boto unknown; thought to be declining vulnerable (IUCN)
franciscana unknown not listed
tucuxi unknown not listed
Hector's dolphin 3,000-4,000 vulnerable (IUCN)
Indo-Pacific humpbacked dolphin unknown; thought to be depleted not listed
Atlantic humpbacked dolphin unknown, but depleted not listed

*"ESA" denotes listing according to the Endangered Species Act. "IUCN" denotes listing according to the IUCN/World Conservation Union Red Databook.

I don't see how whale hunting can be justified. Cultural reasons don't justify the harvesting of a species that is endangered. Extinction is forever and even allowing minimal harvesting of whales would seem to be a step down the proverbial slippery slope.

Antagony · 06-20-2003, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by trecool
I don't see how whale hunting can be justified. Cultural reasons don't justify the harvesting of a species that is endangered.

I never said it was justified, but no one has the right to police other cultures and tell them what is okay and what isn't. It's self-righteous and pretentious.

They aren't killing or oppressing our people, and they aren't destroying our economy. What they do in their own waters is up to them.

Additionally, it appears you may have failed to read your own link. The news article says that it's Minke and Bryde whales, neither of which are listed as endangered in your above post. And even if they were, 300 whales a year is rather inconsequential.

JStrider · 06-20-2003, 08:28 AM

im gonna have to go against what most of the people here are sayin and agree with trecool

right now there are too few whales to be hunted... i mean if we open it up to 300 a year.... do you really think that such small populations will be able to make that many babies a year... and then it will be several years before those babies are able to make babies....

whales were hunted nearly to extinction in the past...i dont think we should allow more hunting untill their populations have greatly increased... and even then it should still be limited...

gov135 · 06-20-2003, 08:56 AM

www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/ 15076/newsDate/19-Mar-2002/story.htm

Japan poll - majority supports commercial whaling
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAPAN: March 19, 2002

TOKYO - A majority of Japanese support the resumption of limited commercial whaling, according to a government opinion poll that is likely to spark criticism from conservationists.

The survey results are also likely to bolster efforts of the Japanese government in its push for the lifting of a 16-year ban on commercial whaling when it hosts the annual meeting of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) in May.
Some 75.5 percent of the 3,453 respondents to the poll, which is the first of its kind, said they supported resuming commercial whaling in coastal waters if the hunting were strictly controlled according to scientific principles, Kyodo news agency reported.

Only 10 percent opposed the idea.

"We will decide how to go about negotiations at the IWC meeting based on the survey results," a government official was quoted by Kyodo as saying.

Japan and fellow whaler Norway have long pushed for the resumption of commercial whaling, an always touchy issue likely to be even more contentious this year because Japan recently said it would expand its research whaling programme.

Tokyo, which abandoned commercial whaling to comply with a 1986 IWC moratorium, has roused international ire by carrying out what it calls scientific research whaling since 1987.

Many critics contend that the meat obtained through this actually ends up on restaurant tables.

GOURMET FOOD

Whale meat was an important source of protein in an impoverished Japan after World War Two, but it has become a gourmet food over the last few decades as prices rose in line with falling supply.

Some 88 percent of the survey respondents, however, said they had tasted whale at least once, Kyodo said.

Two weeks ago Japan angered conservationists by saying it planned to expand its research whaling programme this year to also catch sei whales, which are said to be endangered.

Under a proposal submitted to the IWC for approval, Japan's research fleet in the Northwest Pacific plans to catch 150 minke whales, a rise of 50 from last year. It also plans to catch 50 Bryde's whales, 50 sei whales, and 10 sperm whales.

Japan maintains that the whales it catches are far from endangered, especially minke whales.

It has also argued that whales are consuming vast amounts of fish, leading to a worldwide drop in fisheries production, and that it is essential to catch them in order to study their impact on fishing.

A senior Japanese fisheries official recently told Reuters that the country expects to push hard for resumption of commercial whaling at the IWC meeting.

But the chances are slim, since a three-quarters majority of the 42 IWC members are required to back lifting the ban and a number of members, including the United States and Britain, are strongly opposed.

The IWC's scientific committee will meet in the southwestern city of Shimonoseki from April 25 to May 9, while its annual meeting will be from May 20 to May 24

____________________________________________________

Doesn't look like Japan will get to whale anything according to this article.

But if seventy-five percent of the population of Japan feels they should be allowed to continue to whale in their territorial waters, who are we to say no?

Antagony · 06-20-2003, 09:01 AM

First of all, I would like to point out my above post because you failed to refute a single point that I made.

Quote:

Originally posted by JStrider
i mean if we open it up to 300 a year.... do you really think that such small populations will be able to make that many babies a year... and then it will be several years before those babies are able to make babies....

What are you basing this off of? Do you know the population of those species of whales? Do you know their breeding rates? I mean, you could be a marine biologist, but if I recall, you're a university student.

Quote:

whales were hunted nearly to extinction in the past...i dont think we should allow more hunting untill their populations have greatly increased... and even then it should still be limited...

True, whales were greatly thinned in number in the past. That was because of zero regulation on behalf of governments. Now regulations are obviously strict, as the article details. People aren't just going to start hunting whales again like the world used to, it just can't. Too many regulations.

And the hunting has a very specific limit. 300 a year. So it would be limited as you suggest.

Phaenx · 06-20-2003, 10:51 AM

Whales are overrated.

trecool · 06-20-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Antagony
I never said it was justified, but no one has the right to police other cultures and tell them what is okay and what isn't. It's self-righteous and pretentious.

They aren't killing or oppressing our people, and they aren't destroying our economy. What they do in their own waters is up to them.

Additionally, it appears you may have failed to read your own link. The news article says that it's Minke and Bryde whales, neither of which are listed as endangered in your above post. And even if they were, 300 whales a year is rather inconsequential.

OK, a googling we will go.

http://whales.greenpeace.org/news/25sept2002.html

Some of the greatest hits:

the Convention for Migratory Species (CMS) agreed by consensus to list seven whales species as endangered or needing conservation.

The CMS, which conserves migratory species over the whole of their range, brings conservation benefits for whales making it easier to develop a coordinated approach to the conservation of these highly migratory species wherever they go and provide a framework for the development of future regional agreements.

Fin, Sei and Sperm whales received an Appendix 1 listing, recognising them as endangered. They join the Blue, Humpback, Bowhead, Southern Right and Northern Right whales which are already on the list. Minke, Bryde’s, Pygmy Right and Orca whales received Appendix 2 listings, recognising that their conservation status would significantly benefit from international cooperation.

Are Minke and Bryde whales on the ragged edge of extinction? No. Does that mean that we should start hunting them again and risk the proverbial slippery slope? Of course not.

As far as the cultural relativism argument you are attempting to use, please tell me that you aren't trying to justify the hunting of a species that is still recovering from centuries of over fishing? I respect other cultures, but cultural relativism implies the near absence of right and wrong because of cultural norms and traditions - a cowardly approach to morality which can be perverted to absolve anyone of nearly any atrocity.

Finially, what the Japanese do in their own waters shouldn't be up to them. The ocean doesn't respect national boundries and what happens in one part of the ocean can and does affect the rest of the world.

Good day.

Antagony · 06-20-2003, 01:22 PM

Good points, but I still don't see it as enough justification to impose demands upon another nation.

As for battering my "pro-cultural" logic, that is the justification that was used by the pro-war folks for the "War on Iraq". I like "to put" things" in quo"tes, too.

I don't think it is valid to state that we will enter a "slippery slope" situation if we allow this to happen. Firstly recognize the huge committee that oversees all of this. It's likely that this isn't even going to pass. So if it did, I *really* doubt they'd allow them to just start killing whales indiscriminately. Not to mention that there is no basis for the "slippery slope" claim as it is purely conjecture.

Additionally, I have yet to hear any reason as to why saving 300 whales a year would be beneficial to anyone. Japan would get cultural and economic gains by having this privilege.

Wasted resources are of some issue also. We should be spending time repairing our own fucked up society instead of telling other countries how they should live their lives.

Why banter on about whales thousands of miles away when I have homeless and hungry right outside my door?

WhoaitsZ · 06-20-2003, 02:09 PM

Excuse the length of this post, but it being such a touchy subject and one close to my heart, I wanted to do it right. I did half an hour or so research through Google and here are some things I found. I have the links and the info pertaining to the subject. Follow the links for full reports.

And to Antagony, I agree that societies should no be bother unless the threaten life of humans or endangered animals. Once the animals are gone they will never, ever be back. Its like someone posted a month or so about trees. No, it is not possible to live without cutting trees for shelter/paper and so on, yet we can cut less and lay off the endangered ones. If species A is almost extinct, even though I see as wrong personally to kill whales, I say let them kill from species (insert whale here)B that is not endangered.

Morally and personally I hate the idea altogether, but on a world’s scale my personal feelings mean nothing. But speaking for the planet we have got to step on toes sometimes to make sure they do not go extinct.

So, if it means disrupting a society/culture then so be it. If I could do something besides allow extinction I would. It sucks to play the role of someone who can interfere with a culture but if we don’t want them to vanish we have no choice.

--

http://www.ifawct.org/whaledb/whale12.htm

Mortality The life span of the Bryde’s whale is unknown. Bryde's whales are sometimes preyed upon by killer whales. Distribution In the western Pacific, Bryde’s whale occurs from Japan to New Zealand, and in the eastern Pacific, from Baja California (Mexico) to Chile. In the North-east Pacific, they move between Bonin Islands and the coast of Japan, west Kyushu, and further north. In the Atlantic, the species is reported from Virginia to the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean, south to Brazil. In the east, reports range from the Canaries and Morocco south to the Cape of Good Hope. In the Indian Ocean, their north-south range is from the Persian Gulf to the Cape of Good Hope, and from Burma to Australia. Population In the western North Pacific, it is estimated that between 1970 and 1980 there were about 18,000 Bryde’s whale. There may be around 90,000 world-wide. Habitat Bryde’s whale is essentially a tropical and subtropical species, but may be found in some slightly colder waters. They generally inhabit waters of more than 15 to 20 degrees centigrade, between 40 degrees north and 40 degrees south, except where there are warm water intrusions such as the Kuroshio current. They may be found in both coastal and offshore waters.
Reproduction Females attain sexual maturity at a length of about 12 m and at an age of about 10 years. Males become sexually mature at between 9 and 13 years and between 12 and 13 m in length. Studies of Bryde’s whales in the Gulf of California indicate that they breed throughout the year. It seems that, unlike other rorqual whales, Brydes whales does not have a well-defined breeding season in most areas. The gestation period is thought to be about 12 months, and lactation may last about 6 months.
Conservation Bryde’s whales were hunted by Taiwanese whalers in the Western Pacific in the 1970’s and 1980’s. They are regularly captured in the artisanal whale hunt of the Philippines and probably in Indonesia.
Little is known about the status or abundance of this species, or the effect that commercial whaling has had on the population.

so imagine 300 a year vs an estimate of 20k. that could be 3,000 deaths and 3,000 less births worse case scenario. So by 20 years they’d have to stop or in 30 to 40 years they will cease to exist.

Again I don’t want to upset people. But if I have to it bothers me not. I have no choice, so if it comes to extinction vs doing ‘the right thing’ for people, I’m gonna go with the whales. They are innocent bystandards / victims. Can’t we justify life over disgruntling people?

http://www.ifaw.org/page.asp?unitid=372

Scientific name: Balaenoptera acutorostrata; Balaenoptera bonaerensis

Class: Mammalia
Order: Cetacea
Family: Balaenopteridae
Genus: Balaenoptera
Species: acutorostrata; bonaerensis

Physical description
The minke (pronounced "min-key") whale is the smallest member of the family Balaenopteridae. While there has been some confusion about the taxonomy of this species, Rice (1998) suggests that the minke whale should be classified as two species. In the Northern Hemisphere; B.a. acutorostrata can be found in the Atlantic and B.a. scammoni in the Pacific. In the Southern Hemisphere, the Antarctic minke whale, B. bonaerensis, and a distinct population of unnamed "dwarf" minke whales are found.

Natural History

There is no agreed-upon population estimate for the Southern Hemisphere minke whale. The International Whaling Commission (IWC) is still considering the status and structure of the different populations of this species. The North Atlantic population (excluding the Canadian east coast) has been estimated at 149,000 individuals, and the Northwest Pacific and Okhotsk Sea population estimated at approximately 25,000.

Description & Natural History

Status of the Species
Scientific name: Balaenoptera acutorostrata; Balaenoptera bonaerensis
Class: Mammalia
Order: Cetacea
Family: Balaenopteridae
Genus: Balaenoptera
Species: acutorostrata; bonaerensis

Physical description
The minke (pronounced "min-key") whale is the smallest member of the family Balaenopteridae. While there has been some confusion about the taxonomy of this species, Rice (1998) suggests that the minke whale should be classified as two species. In the Northern Hemisphere; B.a. acutorostrata can be found in the Atlantic and B.a. scammoni in the Pacific. In the Southern Hemisphere, the Antarctic minke whale, B. bonaerensis, and a distinct population of unnamed "dwarf" minke whales are found.

With the exception of the dwarf minke (which inhabits the Southern Hemisphere but is more closely related, genetically, to its Northern Hemisphere relatives), minkes from the northern and southern hemispheres differ in several ways.

Antarctic minke whales are larger than their Northern Hemisphere counterparts, with females reaching a maximum length of 10.7 meters (35 feet) and males reaching 9.8 meters (32 feet). The maximum weight of adults is about ten tonnes (11 tons).

Northern Hemisphere minke whales reach a maximum length of 9.2 meters (30 feet). Calves in both hemispheres are born at approximately 2.4 - 2.8 meters (7.9 - 9.2 feet) in length and weigh 350 kilograms (770 pounds). The smaller dwarf minke whales reach eight meters (26 feet) in length and calves are born at about two meters (6.6 feet).

All minke whales have a slender, streamlined body with a dark v-shaped head when viewed from above. The snout is narrow and pointed. There is a single longitudinal ridge along the rostrum in front of the blowholes. There are two blowholes, as in all baleen whales, and a straight mouth line. Ventral grooves run from the bottom of the chin to the navel. Baleen plates are short and their color, which varies with geographic location, tends to be lighter at the front and darker toward the back.

The body is dark gray or black on the back and white below, with gray shading extending up each side under, and in front of, the dorsal fin. The dorsal fin is sickle-shaped and situated about two thirds of the way along the body toward the tail.

Minke whales from the Northern Hemisphere have a white band around each flipper, whereas Antarctic minke whales may not have any flipper bands or have bands of irregular color and position. The flippers of dwarf minkes are white at the base and dark at the tip, with a white shoulder patch where the flipper joins the body and dark patches extending in front of the flippers and onto the throat.
Natural History
Minke whales inhabit oceans worldwide but are more common in cooler waters. They can be found offshore but are often seen in coastal and inshore areas entering bays and inlets. They do not "fluke up" (lift their tail fins into the air) when they dive, although they often arch the tail stock high above the water before a long dive.

Although they do not bow ride, they may approach or follow beside boats and will perform acrobatic displays such as spyhopping or breaching.

Minke whales are found in some areas throughout the year but only seasonally in others. It is thought that some populations migrate each year from polar feeding grounds to warmer breeding grounds. In the summer, North Atlantic minkes are found at high latitudes in Ungava Bay, Baffin Bay, Davis Strait, Denmark Strait, Jan Mayen, Svalbard and the Barents Sea.

Wintering grounds are poorly documented but sightings have occurred off the coast of Virginia, south to Dominica in the western North Atlantic, and from the North Sea to the Strait of Gibraltar in the eastern North Atlantic.

North Pacific minke whales summer in waters from the southern Chukchi Sea south to the East China Sea, into the central Pacific and the coast of Baja California. Their winter distribution is also poorly known but extends from the East China Sea and central California almost to the equator.

Antarctic minke whales summer in the Antarctic zone, especially close to the edge of the pack ice, and winter in the north, from the equator to the 35th parallel. They have also been sighted in the Ross Sea in winter.

The "dwarf" minke whale tends to be distributed in the lower latitudes of the Southern Hemisphere with wintering grounds from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, New Caledonia and the eastern coast of South America from March to December. Scattered records exist from the sub-Antarctic during December to March and the dwarf form has been observed south of 60 degrees south.

Minke whales tend to be solitary or found in small groups, although they may also be found in larger aggregations in areas where prey is concentrated. Minkes feed primarily on krill and small schooling fishes.

There is no agreed-upon population estimate for the Southern Hemisphere minke whale. The International Whaling Commission (IWC) is still considering the status and structure of the different populations of this species. The North Atlantic population (excluding the Canadian east coast) has been estimated at 149,000 individuals, and the Northwest Pacific and Okhotsk Sea population estimated at approximately 25,000.

Status
B. acutorostrata is listed as Lower Risk: Near Threatened by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) and listed on Appendix I of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES). B. bonaerensis is listed as Lower Risk: Conservation Dependent by IUCN and also listed on Appendix I of CITES.
Threats to the Species
The minke whale is the smallest of the large whales and was therefore uneconomical to harvest commercially until the 1920s, by which time all larger whales had been severely depleted. Despite the International Whaling Commission’s 1986 moratorium on commercial whaling, minke whales have become the principal target for whaling by Norway and Japan over the past 20 years.

Since 1993, Norway has been commercial whaling in the Northeast Atlantic under objection to the IWC moratorium. Between 1993 and 2000, Norway landed 3,172 minke whales. Japan has also been whaling under the banner of "scientific whaling."

Between 1990 and 1999, Japan landed a total of 3,751 minke whales from the Antarctic, including some dwarf minke whales.

Between 1994 and 2000, Japan also landed 538 minkes from the North Pacific where the genetically distinct offshore "O" stock and the inshore Sea of Japan/East Sea "J" stock are found. Because the two stocks are visually indistinguishable, individuals from the depleted "J" stock may be taken by Japan, and some are taken as fisheries bycatch by South Korea.

The Scientific Committee of the IWC concluded in 1999 that the genetically distinct "J" stock is "likely to further decline markedly" because of the high level of incidental catches. Meat from the hunt and from fisheries bycatch is sold commercially in both Japan and Korea.

Minke whales may also be threatened by entanglement in fishing gear, collisions with ships, ocean pollution (marine debris, chemical contamination, oil spills and noise) and habitat degradation by coastal development.

International Trade
Listed on CITES Appendix I which prohibits international trade.

http://www.ifaw.org/

Z- a dude who wishes he could save animals…

trecool · 06-20-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Antagony
Good points, but I still don't see it as enough justification to impose demands upon another nation.

As for battering my "pro-cultural" logic, that is the justification that was used by the pro-war folks for the "War on Iraq". I like "to put" things" in quo"tes, too.

I don't think it is valid to state that we will enter a "slippery slope" situation if we allow this to happen. Firstly recognize the huge committee that oversees all of this. It's likely that this isn't even going to pass. So if it did, I *really* doubt they'd allow them to just start killing whales indiscriminately. Not to mention that there is no basis for the "slippery slope" claim as it is purely conjecture.

Additionally, I have yet to hear any reason as to why saving 300 whales a year would be beneficial to anyone. Japan would get cultural and economic gains by having this privilege.

Wasted resources are of some issue also. We should be spending time repairing our own fucked up society instead of telling other countries how they should live their lives.

Why banter on about whales thousands of miles away when I have homeless and hungry right outside my door?

I suppose what really annoyed me about the issue I posted earlier was the stubborn refusal of a nation to change what it does, even when confronted with blunt reality. When Japan, or any nation for that matter, refuses to accept reality and pulls the cultural relativism card, it is a cowardly and manipulative way to justify amoral actions.

America, imperfect as it is, doesn’t continue to pass on smallpox-infected blankets to native Americans or hang African-Americans for not surrendering the sidewalk in the deep south while arguing that tradition and culture entitle some to abuse the rights of others.

Culture, to put it simply, shouldn’t be used to justify immoral behavior.

Edit - Damn typos!

WhoaitsZ · 06-20-2003, 04:13 PM

not long ago a rule of life was if you didn't adapt to change, you perished. now days everone wants to forget adaptation or evolving, even if it ends life...

our race as a being has become e v i l.

viveleroi0 · 06-20-2003, 04:23 PM

This just in: whales want to resume commercial japanning.

Antagony · 06-20-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trecool
Culture, to put it simply, shouldn’t be used to justify immoral behavior.

Well of course, but that means you're placing what you think is immoral onto the shoulders of others.

Some people think premarital sex is immoral, but others do not. Some people will think killing these whales is immoral, and some will not.

Like most things, this all just boils down to opinion.

vermin · 06-20-2003, 11:25 PM

200,000 sperm whales and they're still considered endangered? How many fuckin' sperm whales do we need?

trecool · 06-21-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Antagony
Well of course, but that means you're placing what you think is immoral onto the shoulders of others.

Some people think premarital sex is immoral, but others do not. Some people will think killing these whales is immoral, and some will not.

Like most things, this all just boils down to opinion.

Excellent point, but some Africans feel the slow, ritualistic stoning of a woman for adultery is appropriate punishment. Some cultures feel the removal of a woman's clitoris is necessary to keep a woman obedient to her husband. In the American south, some felt that the murder of an African-American child for saying “Hey baby” was appropriate and justified. In some southern cities, the shutdown of all public schools was seen as appropriate and justified because African-American students tried to attend them.

I don’t feel as though I am being judgmental, intolerant, or racist by saying that the above-mentioned practices are barbaric and savage. For me, the hunting of an endangered species which has just started to recover from centuries of over hunting is a practice that should be condemned – regardless of political ploys.

WhoaitsZ · 06-21-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by trecool
In the American south, some felt that the murder of an African-American child for saying “Hey baby” was appropriate and justified. In some southern cities, the shutdown of all public schools was seen as appropriate and justified because African-American students tried to attend them.

-repeats over and over

i will not take this personally, i will not take this personally, i will not take this personally, i will not take this personally

okay this is barely working.

the South has some bad apples. we are growing. such behavoires don't happen now days anymore than anywhere else.

i am so sick and tired of hearing the Southern Cliches.

fuckin live here awhile then see how it is?

--------

on the whale note; the difficulty is that we are looking at life and death. it almost sounds like a crutch saying that us whale sympathizers have an ace up our sleeve but its beside the point.

we have to, at some time or another, remember we share the planet. and yes i know we demonate and i know we have all our little football shuffle happy dances that seperate us from Those Poor Inferier Animals, but that too is beside the point.

we have to stop species from going extinct. I wish they'd not kill at all but i see its their way..... go for it guys... just one thing if you kill, please kill something that isn't almost extinct

PLEASE don't give us another example to show our children how we completely murdered yet another form of peaceful life.

if that's too much to ask then i pray we cease to be.

when did we get so selfish?

gibber71 · 06-21-2003, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Antagony
I have yet to hear any reason as to why saving 300 whales a year would be beneficial to anyone.

It would be to CNN. Just imagine a huge Greenpeace ship ramming a fishing troller 10 miles offshore trying to stop whale hunting while endangering human lives. I can see Martin Savage right now in the helicopter live on CNN "Breaking News"

trecool · 06-21-2003, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
-repeats over and over

i will not take this personally, i will not take this personally, i will not take this personally, i will not take this personally

okay this is barely working.

the South has some bad apples. we are growing. such behavoires don't happen now days anymore than anywhere else.

i am so sick and tired of hearing the Southern Cliches.

fuckin live here awhile then see how it is?

--------

on the whale note; the difficulty is that we are looking at life and death. it almost sounds like a crutch saying that us whale sympathizers have an ace up our sleeve but its beside the point.

we have to, at some time or another, remember we share the planet. and yes i know we demonate and i know we have all our little football shuffle happy dances that seperate us from Those Poor Inferier Animals, but that too is beside the point.

we have to stop species from going extinct. I wish they'd not kill at all but i see its their way..... go for it guys... just one thing if you kill, please kill something that isn't almost extinct

PLEASE don't give us another example to show our children how we completely murdered yet another form of peaceful life.

if that's too much to ask then i pray we cease to be.

when did we get so selfish?

For your first point, I was referring to the murder of Emmit Till in (I think) the late forties and propensity of some southern school districts to close their schools in the fifties - instead of allowing blacks to attend white-only schools (like the little rock nine). To restate, for the southern examples I was discussing, I was demonstrating how things USED to be - not how they are now.

For your second point, I...well, I am not sure just what you are trying to say. Would you mind clarifying?

WhoaitsZ · 06-22-2003, 09:17 AM

sorry. I had to rush off at the end of the message and my medication was kicking in.

the second point goes to people who truly believe that it is okay to kill these whales.

i am saying first off as a person who loves most animals over some people, i think it wrong entirely. However, due to the nature of the problem (by which i mean it is culture and tradition for people what, 2k miles away?) my personal and moral beliefs mean grapes. i accept it.

what i think could happen to appease everyone is a comprimisation on both our stance and the hunters' stance.

what I see as a possible solution is to ask if they could hunt some more numerous whales/fishes. the idea of hunting something that is close to extinction terrifies me. if they are hellbent on killing a whale, maybe they could find another species that is more numerous.. this will take effort and most people fear effort.... but it'd be so worth it.

mr. Ant pointed out to me that most likely there would be some people checking the numbers frequently....

i'm with you trecool. i'm actually with ant too to an extent.

instead of keeping on posting why this one cannot do this vs why they can do this, let us focus on deplomacy and try to find a sollution and compromise.

Fade · 06-22-2003, 09:32 AM

How would the resumation of whaling help japan, and would it justify the killing of whales?

06-19-2003, 01:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
trecool Upright	Japan wants to resume commerical whaling http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=3...es_and_Whaling Japan Looks to Resume Whale Hunts (AP) - Japan said Thursday it would look for ways to resume the commercial hunting of whales as it accused the United States of worsening a rift among nations on the international commission established to regulate whaling. Minoru Morimoto, Japan's chief delegate to the International Whaling Commission, expressed frustration after the 50-member body approved a new panel to improve conservation efforts and blocked his government's request to hunt 300 whales a year.

06-19-2003, 11:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
Antagony Psychopathic Akimbo Action Pirate Location: ...between Christ and Belial.	Yeah. Let them hunt their whales. Whales have many uses, very little is wasted. Not to mention that people shouldn't interfere with other cultures. __________________ On the outside I'm jazz, but my soul is rock and roll. Sleep is a waste of time. Join the Insomniac Club. "GYOH GWAH-DAH GREH BLAAA! SROH WIH DIH FLIH RYOHH!!" - The Locust

06-20-2003, 03:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
cchris Junkie Location: Sydney	The next time a cow makes an intelligent sound or motion that may be on par with Humans re communication then and only then will I change my mind about a BBQ. __________________ There's a fine line between participation and mockery

06-20-2003, 08:28 AM	#10 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	im gonna have to go against what most of the people here are sayin and agree with trecool right now there are too few whales to be hunted... i mean if we open it up to 300 a year.... do you really think that such small populations will be able to make that many babies a year... and then it will be several years before those babies are able to make babies.... whales were hunted nearly to extinction in the past...i dont think we should allow more hunting untill their populations have greatly increased... and even then it should still be limited... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

06-20-2003, 10:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Whales are overrated. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

06-19-2003, 05:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	I got no problems with it

06-19-2003, 11:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
hatukaze Upright	Japan has hunted minke, bryde’s and sperm whales for scientific research since 1987. Eating whale meat is far more environmentally-friendly than eating beef, lamb or pork. Harvesting nature's surplus means that biodiversity and habitat does not have to be destroyed and turned into agricultural land. You can find som good information at http://www.highnorth.no/

06-20-2003, 01:09 AM	#6 (permalink)
CatchTwentyFour Upright	I think the same was said (Hunt them if you want, we got tons to spare) of the Buffalo, and just look what happened to them. That's right, all of them refused to quit smoking, and died of throat and lung cancer. I think we could all learn a lesson from those majestic cancer ridden creatures.

06-20-2003, 08:56 AM	#11 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/ 15076/newsDate/19-Mar-2002/story.htm Japan poll - majority supports commercial whaling -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAPAN: March 19, 2002 TOKYO - A majority of Japanese support the resumption of limited commercial whaling, according to a government opinion poll that is likely to spark criticism from conservationists. The survey results are also likely to bolster efforts of the Japanese government in its push for the lifting of a 16-year ban on commercial whaling when it hosts the annual meeting of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) in May. Some 75.5 percent of the 3,453 respondents to the poll, which is the first of its kind, said they supported resuming commercial whaling in coastal waters if the hunting were strictly controlled according to scientific principles, Kyodo news agency reported. Only 10 percent opposed the idea. "We will decide how to go about negotiations at the IWC meeting based on the survey results," a government official was quoted by Kyodo as saying. Japan and fellow whaler Norway have long pushed for the resumption of commercial whaling, an always touchy issue likely to be even more contentious this year because Japan recently said it would expand its research whaling programme. Tokyo, which abandoned commercial whaling to comply with a 1986 IWC moratorium, has roused international ire by carrying out what it calls scientific research whaling since 1987. Many critics contend that the meat obtained through this actually ends up on restaurant tables. GOURMET FOOD Whale meat was an important source of protein in an impoverished Japan after World War Two, but it has become a gourmet food over the last few decades as prices rose in line with falling supply. Some 88 percent of the survey respondents, however, said they had tasted whale at least once, Kyodo said. Two weeks ago Japan angered conservationists by saying it planned to expand its research whaling programme this year to also catch sei whales, which are said to be endangered. Under a proposal submitted to the IWC for approval, Japan's research fleet in the Northwest Pacific plans to catch 150 minke whales, a rise of 50 from last year. It also plans to catch 50 Bryde's whales, 50 sei whales, and 10 sperm whales. Japan maintains that the whales it catches are far from endangered, especially minke whales. It has also argued that whales are consuming vast amounts of fish, leading to a worldwide drop in fisheries production, and that it is essential to catch them in order to study their impact on fishing. A senior Japanese fisheries official recently told Reuters that the country expects to push hard for resumption of commercial whaling at the IWC meeting. But the chances are slim, since a three-quarters majority of the 42 IWC members are required to back lifting the ban and a number of members, including the United States and Britain, are strongly opposed. The IWC's scientific committee will meet in the southwestern city of Shimonoseki from April 25 to May 9, while its annual meeting will be from May 20 to May 24 ____________________________________________________ Doesn't look like Japan will get to whale anything according to this article. But if seventy-five percent of the population of Japan feels they should be allowed to continue to whale in their territorial waters, who are we to say no?

06-20-2003, 01:22 PM	#15 (permalink)
Antagony Psychopathic Akimbo Action Pirate Location: ...between Christ and Belial.	Good points, but I still don't see it as enough justification to impose demands upon another nation. As for battering my "pro-cultural" logic, that is the justification that was used by the pro-war folks for the "War on Iraq". I like "to put" things" in quo"tes, too. I don't think it is valid to state that we will enter a "slippery slope" situation if we allow this to happen. Firstly recognize the huge committee that oversees all of this. It's likely that this isn't even going to pass. So if it did, I really doubt they'd allow them to just start killing whales indiscriminately. Not to mention that there is no basis for the "slippery slope" claim as it is purely conjecture. Additionally, I have yet to hear any reason as to why saving 300 whales a year would be beneficial to anyone. Japan would get cultural and economic gains by having this privilege. Wasted resources are of some issue also. We should be spending time repairing our own fucked up society instead of telling other countries how they should live their lives. Why banter on about whales thousands of miles away when I have homeless and hungry right outside my door? __________________ On the outside I'm jazz, but my soul is rock and roll. Sleep is a waste of time. Join the Insomniac Club. "GYOH GWAH-DAH GREH BLAAA! SROH WIH DIH FLIH RYOHH!!" - The Locust Last edited by Antagony; 06-20-2003 at 01:54 PM..

06-20-2003, 02:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	Excuse the length of this post, but it being such a touchy subject and one close to my heart, I wanted to do it right. I did half an hour or so research through Google and here are some things I found. I have the links and the info pertaining to the subject. Follow the links for full reports. And to Antagony, I agree that societies should no be bother unless the threaten life of humans or endangered animals. Once the animals are gone they will never, ever be back. Its like someone posted a month or so about trees. No, it is not possible to live without cutting trees for shelter/paper and so on, yet we can cut less and lay off the endangered ones. If species A is almost extinct, even though I see as wrong personally to kill whales, I say let them kill from species (insert whale here)B that is not endangered. Morally and personally I hate the idea altogether, but on a world’s scale my personal feelings mean nothing. But speaking for the planet we have got to step on toes sometimes to make sure they do not go extinct. So, if it means disrupting a society/culture then so be it. If I could do something besides allow extinction I would. It sucks to play the role of someone who can interfere with a culture but if we don’t want them to vanish we have no choice. -- http://www.ifawct.org/whaledb/whale12.htm Mortality The life span of the Bryde’s whale is unknown. Bryde's whales are sometimes preyed upon by killer whales. Distribution In the western Pacific, Bryde’s whale occurs from Japan to New Zealand, and in the eastern Pacific, from Baja California (Mexico) to Chile. In the North-east Pacific, they move between Bonin Islands and the coast of Japan, west Kyushu, and further north. In the Atlantic, the species is reported from Virginia to the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean, south to Brazil. In the east, reports range from the Canaries and Morocco south to the Cape of Good Hope. In the Indian Ocean, their north-south range is from the Persian Gulf to the Cape of Good Hope, and from Burma to Australia. Population In the western North Pacific, it is estimated that between 1970 and 1980 there were about 18,000 Bryde’s whale. There may be around 90,000 world-wide. Habitat Bryde’s whale is essentially a tropical and subtropical species, but may be found in some slightly colder waters. They generally inhabit waters of more than 15 to 20 degrees centigrade, between 40 degrees north and 40 degrees south, except where there are warm water intrusions such as the Kuroshio current. They may be found in both coastal and offshore waters. Reproduction Females attain sexual maturity at a length of about 12 m and at an age of about 10 years. Males become sexually mature at between 9 and 13 years and between 12 and 13 m in length. Studies of Bryde’s whales in the Gulf of California indicate that they breed throughout the year. It seems that, unlike other rorqual whales, Brydes whales does not have a well-defined breeding season in most areas. The gestation period is thought to be about 12 months, and lactation may last about 6 months. Conservation Bryde’s whales were hunted by Taiwanese whalers in the Western Pacific in the 1970’s and 1980’s. They are regularly captured in the artisanal whale hunt of the Philippines and probably in Indonesia. Little is known about the status or abundance of this species, or the effect that commercial whaling has had on the population. so imagine 300 a year vs an estimate of 20k. that could be 3,000 deaths and 3,000 less births worse case scenario. So by 20 years they’d have to stop or in 30 to 40 years they will cease to exist. Again I don’t want to upset people. But if I have to it bothers me not. I have no choice, so if it comes to extinction vs doing ‘the right thing’ for people, I’m gonna go with the whales. They are innocent bystandards / victims. Can’t we justify life over disgruntling people? http://www.ifaw.org/page.asp?unitid=372 Scientific name: Balaenoptera acutorostrata; Balaenoptera bonaerensis Class: Mammalia Order: Cetacea Family: Balaenopteridae Genus: Balaenoptera Species: acutorostrata; bonaerensis Physical description The minke (pronounced "min-key") whale is the smallest member of the family Balaenopteridae. While there has been some confusion about the taxonomy of this species, Rice (1998) suggests that the minke whale should be classified as two species. In the Northern Hemisphere; B.a. acutorostrata can be found in the Atlantic and B.a. scammoni in the Pacific. In the Southern Hemisphere, the Antarctic minke whale, B. bonaerensis, and a distinct population of unnamed "dwarf" minke whales are found. Natural History There is no agreed-upon population estimate for the Southern Hemisphere minke whale. The International Whaling Commission (IWC) is still considering the status and structure of the different populations of this species. The North Atlantic population (excluding the Canadian east coast) has been estimated at 149,000 individuals, and the Northwest Pacific and Okhotsk Sea population estimated at approximately 25,000. Description & Natural History Status of the Species Scientific name: Balaenoptera acutorostrata; Balaenoptera bonaerensis Class: Mammalia Order: Cetacea Family: Balaenopteridae Genus: Balaenoptera Species: acutorostrata; bonaerensis Physical description The minke (pronounced "min-key") whale is the smallest member of the family Balaenopteridae. While there has been some confusion about the taxonomy of this species, Rice (1998) suggests that the minke whale should be classified as two species. In the Northern Hemisphere; B.a. acutorostrata can be found in the Atlantic and B.a. scammoni in the Pacific. In the Southern Hemisphere, the Antarctic minke whale, B. bonaerensis, and a distinct population of unnamed "dwarf" minke whales are found. With the exception of the dwarf minke (which inhabits the Southern Hemisphere but is more closely related, genetically, to its Northern Hemisphere relatives), minkes from the northern and southern hemispheres differ in several ways. Antarctic minke whales are larger than their Northern Hemisphere counterparts, with females reaching a maximum length of 10.7 meters (35 feet) and males reaching 9.8 meters (32 feet). The maximum weight of adults is about ten tonnes (11 tons). Northern Hemisphere minke whales reach a maximum length of 9.2 meters (30 feet). Calves in both hemispheres are born at approximately 2.4 - 2.8 meters (7.9 - 9.2 feet) in length and weigh 350 kilograms (770 pounds). The smaller dwarf minke whales reach eight meters (26 feet) in length and calves are born at about two meters (6.6 feet). All minke whales have a slender, streamlined body with a dark v-shaped head when viewed from above. The snout is narrow and pointed. There is a single longitudinal ridge along the rostrum in front of the blowholes. There are two blowholes, as in all baleen whales, and a straight mouth line. Ventral grooves run from the bottom of the chin to the navel. Baleen plates are short and their color, which varies with geographic location, tends to be lighter at the front and darker toward the back. The body is dark gray or black on the back and white below, with gray shading extending up each side under, and in front of, the dorsal fin. The dorsal fin is sickle-shaped and situated about two thirds of the way along the body toward the tail. Minke whales from the Northern Hemisphere have a white band around each flipper, whereas Antarctic minke whales may not have any flipper bands or have bands of irregular color and position. The flippers of dwarf minkes are white at the base and dark at the tip, with a white shoulder patch where the flipper joins the body and dark patches extending in front of the flippers and onto the throat. Natural History Minke whales inhabit oceans worldwide but are more common in cooler waters. They can be found offshore but are often seen in coastal and inshore areas entering bays and inlets. They do not "fluke up" (lift their tail fins into the air) when they dive, although they often arch the tail stock high above the water before a long dive. Although they do not bow ride, they may approach or follow beside boats and will perform acrobatic displays such as spyhopping or breaching. Minke whales are found in some areas throughout the year but only seasonally in others. It is thought that some populations migrate each year from polar feeding grounds to warmer breeding grounds. In the summer, North Atlantic minkes are found at high latitudes in Ungava Bay, Baffin Bay, Davis Strait, Denmark Strait, Jan Mayen, Svalbard and the Barents Sea. Wintering grounds are poorly documented but sightings have occurred off the coast of Virginia, south to Dominica in the western North Atlantic, and from the North Sea to the Strait of Gibraltar in the eastern North Atlantic. North Pacific minke whales summer in waters from the southern Chukchi Sea south to the East China Sea, into the central Pacific and the coast of Baja California. Their winter distribution is also poorly known but extends from the East China Sea and central California almost to the equator. Antarctic minke whales summer in the Antarctic zone, especially close to the edge of the pack ice, and winter in the north, from the equator to the 35th parallel. They have also been sighted in the Ross Sea in winter. The "dwarf" minke whale tends to be distributed in the lower latitudes of the Southern Hemisphere with wintering grounds from South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, New Caledonia and the eastern coast of South America from March to December. Scattered records exist from the sub-Antarctic during December to March and the dwarf form has been observed south of 60 degrees south. Minke whales tend to be solitary or found in small groups, although they may also be found in larger aggregations in areas where prey is concentrated. Minkes feed primarily on krill and small schooling fishes. There is no agreed-upon population estimate for the Southern Hemisphere minke whale. The International Whaling Commission (IWC) is still considering the status and structure of the different populations of this species. The North Atlantic population (excluding the Canadian east coast) has been estimated at 149,000 individuals, and the Northwest Pacific and Okhotsk Sea population estimated at approximately 25,000. Status B. acutorostrata is listed as Lower Risk: Near Threatened by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN) and listed on Appendix I of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES). B. bonaerensis is listed as Lower Risk: Conservation Dependent by IUCN and also listed on Appendix I of CITES. Threats to the Species The minke whale is the smallest of the large whales and was therefore uneconomical to harvest commercially until the 1920s, by which time all larger whales had been severely depleted. Despite the International Whaling Commission’s 1986 moratorium on commercial whaling, minke whales have become the principal target for whaling by Norway and Japan over the past 20 years. Since 1993, Norway has been commercial whaling in the Northeast Atlantic under objection to the IWC moratorium. Between 1993 and 2000, Norway landed 3,172 minke whales. Japan has also been whaling under the banner of "scientific whaling." Between 1990 and 1999, Japan landed a total of 3,751 minke whales from the Antarctic, including some dwarf minke whales. Between 1994 and 2000, Japan also landed 538 minkes from the North Pacific where the genetically distinct offshore "O" stock and the inshore Sea of Japan/East Sea "J" stock are found. Because the two stocks are visually indistinguishable, individuals from the depleted "J" stock may be taken by Japan, and some are taken as fisheries bycatch by South Korea. The Scientific Committee of the IWC concluded in 1999 that the genetically distinct "J" stock is "likely to further decline markedly" because of the high level of incidental catches. Meat from the hunt and from fisheries bycatch is sold commercially in both Japan and Korea. Minke whales may also be threatened by entanglement in fishing gear, collisions with ships, ocean pollution (marine debris, chemical contamination, oil spills and noise) and habitat degradation by coastal development. International Trade Listed on CITES Appendix I which prohibits international trade. http://www.ifaw.org/ Z- a dude who wishes he could save animals… Last edited by WhoaitsZ; 06-20-2003 at 02:12 PM..

06-20-2003, 04:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	not long ago a rule of life was if you didn't adapt to change, you perished. now days everone wants to forget adaptation or evolving, even if it ends life... our race as a being has become e v i l.

06-20-2003, 04:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
viveleroi0 Psycho Location: Oregon	This just in: whales want to resume commercial japanning. __________________ "It's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't care" - Homer Simpson

06-20-2003, 11:25 PM	#21 (permalink)
vermin Indifferent to anti-matter Location: Tucson, AZ	200,000 sperm whales and they're still considered endangered? How many fuckin' sperm whales do we need? __________________ If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.

06-22-2003, 09:17 AM	#26 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	sorry. I had to rush off at the end of the message and my medication was kicking in. the second point goes to people who truly believe that it is okay to kill these whales. i am saying first off as a person who loves most animals over some people, i think it wrong entirely. However, due to the nature of the problem (by which i mean it is culture and tradition for people what, 2k miles away?) my personal and moral beliefs mean grapes. i accept it. what i think could happen to appease everyone is a comprimisation on both our stance and the hunters' stance. what I see as a possible solution is to ask if they could hunt some more numerous whales/fishes. the idea of hunting something that is close to extinction terrifies me. if they are hellbent on killing a whale, maybe they could find another species that is more numerous.. this will take effort and most people fear effort.... but it'd be so worth it. mr. Ant pointed out to me that most likely there would be some people checking the numbers frequently.... i'm with you trecool. i'm actually with ant too to an extent. instead of keeping on posting why this one cannot do this vs why they can do this, let us focus on deplomacy and try to find a sollution and compromise.

06-22-2003, 09:32 AM	#27 (permalink)
Fade Banned	How would the resumation of whaling help japan, and would it justify the killing of whales?