analog

The idea is loosely based on something that once almost happened to a friend of mine back in 2002.

Assumed common knowledge: having sex with a person who is intoxicated is rape. They are impaired, and unable to legally consent to sex. Yes? Good? Ok.

Fred (not his real name) and this chick he just met went downtown one night. Fred was driving, so he didn't have anything to drink. The chick drank, however, and by the time last call came around, she was pretty drunk. Not sloppy, falling over, slurred-speech, nearly-unconscious drunk, but definitely DRUNK. Her car was at his place, so he drove them back to his place. He took her keys and offered her his bed, and went to sleep on the couch.

Here's the deal:

She calls out to him from his room. He goes to her, to see what's up. She doesn't say a word, but immediately starts taking his clothes off. He doesn't help, but he doesn't protest. He doesn't even touch her. She pushes him onto the bed and manually brings him to an erection. She asks if he has a condom. He says that he keeps condoms in his nightstand drawer. She retrieves one, puts it on him, and proceeds to climb on top of him. She's wearing a skirt- she slides her panties to the side and mounts him. He doesn't move, he doesn't touch her. She rides him for a while, seeming to have a great time of it. He doesn't even reach up to touch her, let alone thrust into her. Eventually she's had enough and dismounts, whereupon she finishes him off orally.

So... legally, and philosophically, could it be considered rape?

(pretend she videotaped the whole thing, so there's actual evidence of him not touching her, and her doing all the work. just focus on the idea of "if this is how it actually happened, is it rape?")

Journeyman

The defense is pretty solid, but a prosecutor might be inclined to point to his having an erection as active participation in the act.

Let's say the guy gets drunk, and rapes her (forcefully). Alcohol wouldn't be considered a mitigating factor in most courts (I think, I'm not a lawyer), so her being drunk but not so drunk that she can't initiate and carry out pretty much all action needed to engage in sexual conduct ought to leave "Fred" in the clear.

seretogis

I see a very bold line separating the rape of passed-out-drunk women and simply "impaired judgement." Being drunk does not excuse one of responsibility for their actions -- be it engaging in consensual sex, driving a vehicle, or beating their wife. If someone cannot handle being drunk -- voluntarily impairing their own judgement -- they should not drink. I don't.

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Chiyachan

He could have dealt with it more tactfully, aka, refuse all together. Or leave the room, but he stayed.
I don't think I would see this as rape, since she initiated the event...

Shauk

sex under the influence isn't rape.

it's blame shifting.

Nimetic

In my view - this is definitely not rape. It's consensual sex. I'd consider it a bad move on his part to participate, but that's a different call.

Nisses

quoted for great justice

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aberkok

This is not rape. Legally I can't see it (but don't really know). In spirit, however, I see rape as a power trip as well as a sexual assault. Doesn't sound like this guy was scared or oppressed in any way.

This reminds me of some as yet unmade Hollywood comedy (Vince Vaughn?) where a guy is trying to prove it's possible to get raped by a woman.

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dlish

why's fred to blame for any of this?

if he had drunk also and this incident happened, would he be blamed for any of this? i think not.

it seems that the fact that he was sober makes him responsible for someone elses actions which i find overly unfair.

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The_Jazz

In this scenario, she's not "consenting" at all. She's actively pursuing.

Perhaps this belongs in the "Can a Woman Rape a Man" thread.

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JohnBua

If was drunk and murdered Fred, would I be blameless?

Ustwo

The whole drunk thing is to protect the passed out chick in the frat coat room.

Otherwise its a very stupid law.

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Willravel

No rape here. Drunkenness isn't some magic state that you're absolved of all your actions.

LazyBoy

I'd have to say no....but the courts may think differently

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MSD

Anyone who would bring charges against him, and anyone who would vote to convict, is likely an idiot.

MexicanOnABike

no. not even close!

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Hyacinthe

I definitely don't see it as rape.

If Fred had set out to get her drunk for the sole purpose of her passing out or being more easily to man handle then yes. But as is we don't know if he bought her drinks and he was definitely not forcing her into the act.

I view the
As a law to protect women from that occurring, you go out with a guy and he slips alcohol into your drink, you might not notice unless it's alot stronger then previously, the more you drink the less likely you are to notice so he could get you fairly pissed that way. This would make you far far more susceptible to any sexual advances made by him.

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Willravel

Hyacinthe wins best avatar, and sex crime laws are all messed up in this country.

ratbastid

Right. Remember: sex with someone who is drunk isn't rape unless she (or he, I suppose, though in practice that's rare) either doesn't want it at the time, or regrets it the next morning. If she's all like, "hey, that was pretty awesome" in the morning: no rape.

Given that you can't necessarily predict the morning attitude of a drunken person, it's wisest to keep your hands to yourself.

The question isn't really "was this rape?". The question is, "If she wakes up in the morning and CLAIMS it was rape, was it rape?" And the answer is probably yes. Did she wake up and claim rape?

MSD

I've woken up after blacking out and being told I did a lot of really stupid things. Instead of blaming those around me for not having tried to stop me, I apologized to anyone I inconvenienced and got my drinking under control before it became a more serious problem.

Leto

No I don't think she raped him. He wasn't under her power or coerced in any way.

Ourcrazymodern?

Given the OP decided to give us a truth:

If it was a rape (as described) a woman can rape a man.

I do not believe this - I also do not believe a woman cannot make a man hard whenever she pleases.

Equal culpability?

Keep your cocks covered, boys!

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LadySin

So true...

Borla

I have woken up before, to find that, while I was honestly dead asleep, my wife gave me an erection, gotten on top of me, lowered herself onto me, and we were having sex. Now, obviously her idea was for me to eventually wake up like this (and it was quite nice!!), what if I hadn't wanted it? Or she was just a female friend asleep in the next room who snuck into my bed to do this? Wouldn't that be rape?

While I admit there have to be some pretty extenuating circumstances, a female raping a male via intercourse is possible.

But I don't think it happened in the case mentioned by the OP. The man did not say no, or object at all, so he wasn't raped. The girl initiated everything, and the guy did not actively try to coerce her, so she wasn't raped.

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basmoq

At the very least, a woman could sexually assault or molest a man. I'm not sure that the law will ever see it as rape however...

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Ustwo

I think the one issue we are not thinking about is that guys have been known to get women overly drunk on purpose (how many 18 year old girls understand alcohol?) in order to take advantage of them.

That is in fact rape, no different than if you slipped a roofie in their drink.

The problem is the vagueness of the law, but not the intent.

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Racnad

I find it interesting that the responses indicate that the question of whether the scenario desbribes a possible rape of a man by a woman or a woman by a man isn't clear.

While some anti-rape activists have tried to expand the definition of rape to include taking advantage of women wearing beer googles (as opposed to unconcious drunk), I don't think that the actual rape laws of any state would cover the scenario described here (assuming both parties are 18 or older).

Menoman

I don't believe for 2 seconds Fred, never touched her or had some fun with her.

More like she was drunk enough she wouldn't remember much so there won't be any counter arguement.


But if this is hypothetical, No... it's not rape IMO.

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biznatch

All I know is that picturing Fred standing there, not moving or even saying "woohoo" with his hands in the air is making me smile.
This isn't rape...from the girl or the guy.
But I bet if the guy were accused of rape the next day, he might be found guilty, even though he didn't even actively have sex with the chick.

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ScottKuma

Not rape in ANY sense of the word - but it would take a hell of a defense to...ahem...get the guy off. (Actually, that might depend on the current judicial environment in the jurisdiction under which he was being tried.)

It's a shame that we've gotten to the point where we almost need a waiver in order to be able to have consensual sex...and then having it notarized isn't a bad thing, either!

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chancester

Seeing as how I have a friend that when drunk has a total lack of awareness.....I can see why this would be called rape. I have witnessed DEMONS shoot out of people from alcohol. I am always their to give them a hand, which I DREAD. Like another someone said, if you can't handle your alcohol, don't drink. It's as simple as that. It's like everything else in life.....know your limits. If 4 beers gets you tipsy, almost drunk, than stop? Simple. It's like people forget about how much beers they can have....I don't get it. This is a sore spot for me. I would consider it rape.

Strange Famous

no.

Having sex with someone who is drunk isnt rape either.

Having sex with someone who is not fully conscious could be called so.

Rape is to forcefully sexually attack a person... not for an adult to make a mistake because they have willingly abused whatever substance to the point they make a decision they then regret.

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cyklone

If he was aware enough to tell her where the condoms were kept he was aware enough to say NO. He didn't. End of story.

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, it's not called rape, it's called "asking for it."

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Seaver

This part disturbs me.

If a girl is physically forced to the floor and raped and she becomes wet during it... is that no longer rape?

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ItWasMe

By the 'common knowledge' you want the situation evaluated with, I would say

Legally: I'm going to go with a very probable yes. I originally was going with an easy no, because I think the answer should morally be no. But you didn't ask morally. You asked legally. So I thought about it (too much analog, thank you!) He allowed an intoxicated person to have sex with him. Does "having sex with an intoxicated person" EQUAL "letting an intoxicated person have sex with you?" Not until I replaced the words "intoxicated person" with "minor" in all instances to evaluate the situation and the rule. I came up with yes. Not that I wanted that to be my answer.

Philosophically: Hell no. He wasn't using her impaired condition to force her to do anything.

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Terrell

I think that the man did not rape the woman in this case, but as previous posters mentioned, if the woman says it was rape the next day, he probably gets indicted and convicted.

ScottKuma

So, you're saying that this IS rape?

Please do expound.

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Terrell

I may be wrong, but I think that OP is asking whether or not the man raped the woman. I don't think that the OP intends to ask whether or not the woman raped the man.