The_Jazz

I don't look directly at homeless people if I can help it.

/remembers he's married to a stay-at-home mom and calls the florist

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

abaya

Only if you make it that way. I don't see it that way at all... hence my examples of gaining notoriety for non-work related activities. What did you think of those?

Additionally, is there anything really wrong with being anonymous? The opposite of that would be an attention whore, so given a choice, I suppose I'd take anonymous. But as I said, I don't think life is about work vs. anonymity. All my identity (public and private) exists outside of my work, so I don't feel anonymous in any way... I just don't need my career to give my life validity.

Besides, what happens if you depend on your work for your self-image and sense of worth? It owns you. Everything must be sacrificed to the worship of that which will give you validity and recognition. Time, relationships, hobbies, even your sense of self. Hence why JJ began this thread, I believe. I'm not interested in being owned by anything, frankly, let alone a job.

Sorry to be frank, but that's your problem, not the homeless person's.

I can agree with that. Feelings are always valid. But that doesn't make them healthy or good. Once again, I think that's what JJ is trying to get at, here.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

ayap i get that part of how you feel inside, but I guess that's what I'm curious about, what is your opinion of someone that isn't in the workforce or career? (not you mal but in general to the convo.)

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Well, my opinion is that they're human... a person, after all. Someone with their own history and issues and life story to tell. I don't see much difference between sitting down with a homeless person to hear about how they ended up in that place, and sitting down with a CEO (if she or he has the time to pay you any attention) and asking about his life story. And I can almost guarantee you I'd be more interested in the homeless person's.

One thing I forgot to cite in my examples of notoriety-without-a-career: blogging. YouTube. The internets in general. As long as you can afford an internet connection (or you can find a place where it's free, like a library), you can become far more famous than most successful business people ever do. I think we're all well aware of that.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cynthetiq

always the sociologist :P Rúsínan í pylsuendanum!

(that's the raisin at the end of the weiner! for you non-icelanders)

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

The_Jazz

To be equally frank, my problem actually is that you don't get my joke.

To be serious, people have always been remembered by what they have accomplished in life. The easiest way to do that work, whatever that may be. Some people are remember for siring someone who did something in their career, but let's face it: historical figures are generally remembered for what they did, whether it was President, king, inventor, executioner or salesman. Your career is generally the mark on the world that you can control. You can't control what your children will do, and they make their own marks.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

abaya

Someone's been reading Iceland Review, eh? BTW, how does that make me a "sociologist?" (I'm supposed to be an anthropologist, anyway... not that I put much stock in that title.) Is it "sociological" to see people as... well, people?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

maleficent

I've been work obsessed for so long... it's such a part of who I am - I am my career... that I have a tough time understanding people who don't feel that way... I really don't get it- and perhaps it's because they're not doing something they enjoy or what...

There's a quote from a television show about alcoholism - where the character, who was an alcoholic, mused that he didn't understand how people could leave half a glass of wine on the table, or how they couldn't not finish an entire bottle of scotch, basically drink until you were drunk... I tend to feel that way - except not with booze but with work... I don't understand how people can leave with work still to be done... and not enjoy it...

__________________

abaya

What sign was there that it was a joke?... I consider most things serious until proven humorous, at least in writing. (emoticons help)
I'm not thinking of children at all. I'm thinking... why is your career the only thing that you can "control," in terms of making a mark? Is your job description going on your tombstone?

In my case, I feel a great deal of control about other things making a mark, far more than my career. Photography, writing, my desire to volunteer, learning languages, traveling, being an activist, etc. My career controls *me*, if there's any controlling going on. I am a slave to that paycheck, since those hours I am supposed to be working, are not being spent on all the other things that I would rather be doing.

Why is it so difficult to accept that identity does not *have* to be tied to one's career, and that it is in fact often unhealthy to live that way... as JJ pointed out in the OP?

No, for me, it's because I enjoy too many things to be tied down to one activity for X hours a week, X weeks a year, X years of my life. It's like a prison sentence, to me. If my life plays out the way I imagine (haha), I'll be changing jobs/careers every 5-10 years, if not more often, because there are just so many things I want to do, to try, to master... and then to move on to the next new thing. That's what I truly *enjoy* doing... and that's why I have no identity in any one job. Too limiting.

It's for the same reason that there are five countries and language between me and ktspktsp, and why I enjoy the idea of living in many different places, our kids speaking multiple languages, etc. Living in one place for my whole life, speaking one language, being with someone from my own culture... for me personally, I would go out of my mind with boredom. The world is too big, life is too short, to put all my identity in one basket. But maybe that's just me.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

QuasiMondo

I think they're great topics for eulogies and obituraries, and that's really about it, unless any one of those activities becomes something you do full-time.

There's nothing wrong with it, but it's going to be seen in the same light as somebody who doesn't want a girlfriend or get married and start a family. It seems shallow, but it is what it is

I'm not going to feel sad for them over it because I think it's a fair trade-off. In the end, if they didn't feel that their sacrifice was worth it to achieve and maintain the lifestyle granted by your career, they'd be reconsidering their career options.

Figuratively speaking, it is.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

abaya

How is that any different from work notoriety? You die, your 40 years spent with the company are mentioned, you get a gold star in your obituary... then what? How many people are *really* remembered for their jobs, in the end? Other than maybe Albert Einstein and some famous scientists... but most of us are a lot more anonymous to the world than we'd like to think, outside of our fields.
Huh? How is not wanting to be an attention whore the same as not wanting to be married and have a family? The logic doesn't flow with me, here...
Now this, I can agree with. I don't necessarily feel sad for those people... they ought to have known what they were getting into, and I hope it made them happy. The only thing I dislike is when people do lead lives like that, and bitch about it all the time, or get to the end of their life and regret all they didn't do because they spent so much time on their career. I have no time for that kind of bullshit. They should have reconsidered their career "options" (life priorities, really) a long time ago. You only get one life, after all.

Figuratively speaking... where? Hell, if it did go on your tombstone, I'd understand the whole notion a lot better. But most people get a little paragraph in the local newspaper, that's about it. Maybe something bigger if you were an American president, or CEO of some big company, or particularly if you did something unethical and then killed yourself later (drama always goes down well in the history books). Otherwise, we're all dust, out in the recycling with yesterday's paper.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

QuasiMondo

Then why do we ask kids "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

And to backtrack...
We're obviously talking different things here. I'm talking about not wanting to have a career that defines who you are in society, not necessarily be famous.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

abaya

I dunno... it's fuckin' annoying, if you ask me, and I hope I never bug my children with that question. I also hate the grown-up equivalent, "Whaddaya gonna do when you graduate?" (I got it with my high school diploma, BA, MA, and now my PhD.) "Why do you care?!" People like to make polite conversation, that's about the only reason I can think of.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

maleficent

When I am dead I will be dead - I really dont care if I am remembered or not - i'll be dead so what's it to me?

What matters is what happens when I'm here - I know that my work obsession has made the work lives around me better because of my efforts... so while that's a success..

there's a poem that's attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson (that he really didn't write)

To laugh often and much;
To win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children;
To earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends;
To appreciate beauty;
To find the best in others;
To leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch
or a redeemed social condition;
To know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived;
This is to have succeeded.

Most every single one of those things - except for the garden patch or healthy child - I can apply to my work life - so that would mean my life was a success - because I have worked...

Everyone is different... doesnt make their choices wrong... or right...

__________________

abaya

Mal, I can agree with that. If your work life is the actual means by which you do make a lasting difference in people's lives, then by all means, I can see why you enjoy it so much... nothing hard to understand about that. (I'll still remember you more for those 60 miles you walked in 3 days for a good cause, though... that was freaking awesome.)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

maleficent

lasting difference in people's lives? not so much... but most people are about instant gratification... I can fix an immediate problem and let them continue to do their job and go on about their lives.

I can justify anything - yeahI don't have a problem

__________________

Plan9

What was that Huey Lewis song about nothing we do today will matter a 100 years from now?

I vote for that.

What about complacency?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

roachboy

at a remove, the op question has an obvious answer--people are this way because they are taught to be this way. whether you view the effects of this as submission or not is a political matter. whether or not you allow yourself to be sucked into variants on "work obsession" follows from political positions: if you understand the capitalist mode of work organization to be problematic, then you will probably struggle in your own life to not allow it to become how you operate; if you dont, then there's no problem and you'll do what seems to follow for you.

for myself--i can do the academic thing because i shifted around how i work. i like to make stuff. i find aspects of my academic training and interests are important catalysts for that making of stuff. for a long time, i identified very closely with a particular view of being-academic that i found debilitating and which resembled what abaya wrote above---but i figured out that for me other relations are possible and set about building them. so at this point, i see academic work as a day gig--neither better nor worse nor even particularly different from any other. what it is *not* is a space of non-alienated production. for a long time, i thought it was. i was wrong. much of my personal difficulty in reconciling myself to this curious way of life followed from my difficulty in reconciling what i thought it was and what it is.
at this point, i see an academic gig as one that pays the bills, gives me access to resources to plunder, enables teaching (which i kinda like doing)--but mostly which enables me to buy and steal time. protecting my time becomes a priority then. time is what enables other types of production to unfold. whether the outputs please others or not is not my concern--i do the stuff i do because i find the doing to be engaging.

insofar as any day gig is concerned, you only give away what you want to give away at one level or another: no-one actually gives a shit, so the problems and responsibilities are yours. sometimes i think that folk map relations to parents from the viewpoint of children into their careers and look to their day jobs for validation in ways that i find incomprehensible--but which it makes no sense to disapprove of really because they are simply not my choices, they do not correspond to my frame of reference--and because i dont have to live with the consequences and so my inability to understand them doesnt really matter.

i used to wonder what normal is like.
then i figured out that there is no normal.
people go looking for it, but it isnt there. it isnt anywhere. it doesnt exist.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynthetiq

dammit! ANTHROpologist. that's what i meant.... I knew you were one of thos ologist, but not a geologist!

and that was one of the funniest articles I've read from them in a while.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Once again, roachboy has summarized the essence of what I've been blathering about for two pages. It's part of your culture, folks. Culture = an set of beliefs and behaviors that are passed down from person to person in a non-genetic manner. Work ethic is one of these things. People aren't born wanting to earn their identity through their work.
rb, you and I discussed this before... but if I ever did end up in a job related to my PhD (academia, research, what have you), I'd hope that's all it was... a day job. I'm all about the "other relations" aspect, external to the day job. I think academia (just like plenty of other corporations) would like to have its members believe that there ARE no other relations, that the day job = life, and that's unfortunate.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

JumpinJesus

I like where this thread is going. There are so many questions I could ask based upon the responses thus far. I want to focus on just one or two, though.

For those people who accept that their work defines them, I wonder: what defined you before you began your career? What defined you as a child? How do you expect to define yourself after you retire?

To an extent, I agree with maleficent when she says that once she's dead, she won't care if she's remembered. In that I agree with it, I believe in making the most of the life I have. While I enjoy my work, I have to admit that if I was wealthy enough to do whatever I wanted, I don't honestly know if this is what I'd do. Which brings me to my question.

If you were wealthy enough that you didn't have to work anymore, would you? Would you continue with the career you have now or would you choose something different? Please be honest.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

QuasiMondo

Before I had a career, I was defined as a "student"
When I retire, I will be defined as a "retired [insert career]"

If I had enough wealth that I didn't have to work, I'd still work in my career. I enjoy what I do, even if I don't like the job sometimes.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

abaya

Heh... what defined/defines/will define me before/now/in the future, is "me." Me being a person, who I am, period. I don't see why I would want to be defined as anything else, no offense to others.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

EaseUp

I work with a group of hard-working people. Recently, a single mom decided to have another child. She took two months of disability, had a c-section paid for by the state just because she wanted to, and filed for assistance from the state for single mothers with children. She won't marry the father, because that would cut down on welfare. He currently collects disability, but is not hindered in any way from riding his bicycle around all day.

To top it off, she brags to her former co-workers how they have plenty of money now.

Does that make anyone else feel that working hard is pointless? Or at least unfair?

JumpinJesus

I guess I would ask: How does that make you feel? The tone I'm getting from your post is that what she is doing bothers you.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

maleficent

i had my first job where i paid social security at 15 but paying jobs as a babysitter since I was 11 or 12- and got recognized for a strong work ethic often... work has always defined me for the most part... but before that - being a hard worker in school, in sports, in anything I did - i was defined by whatever I did -I have it 100 percent...

I'll be carried out of the officein a pine box, retirement will be defined by a death...

__________________

abaya

My only question: isn't it possible to be a hard worker without that work defining who you are? To put in your 110% to whichever job/activity/sport for the time that it requires, and then go home and chill, be "yourself," and let go of work for the day? I've seen it done, and I try hard to approximate this in my own life, so I know it's not impossible. In fact, I would daresay that it's an ideal to strive for.

Creating a boundary between one's work and one's self seems elemental, just as it's important to have boundaries between one's self and one's spouse, or one's children, or anything else we invest so much time and energy in during our lives. Preserving our core being. Isn't that key to healthy living, to not depending so much on one particular thing or person for who we are?... because then we are left vulnerable to losing our entire sense of self, when one of those pillars gets yanked out from under us.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran