Cynthetiq

I don't buy into the whole purchasing carbon offsets. It is in my opinion like Preemptive Absolution "involves a person punishing themselves for sins not yet committed, in order to build up a store of credit. In the event that they would ever be required to kill someone, or commit some other sin, the person can do so in a state of grace, since they have already suffered for it."

Because of this, I don't carbon offset. I think it silly. People "purchasing" their kids carbon credits so that they can use up more than their share. Purchasing credits to offset their lare McMansion heating and cooling bills.

I hated the fact I had to drive to work every day. I moved to a place with good public transportation, and even then if I needed to I can walk home and to work. That is my way to offset. I may have a car, but I pay extra to own it, even though I don't drive it more than 8,000 miles a year.

Do you buy carbon offsets? Would you if you could? Why or why not?

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Baraka_Guru

I'm not completely sold on it myself. I don't see how we can buy ourselves out of a toxic world. Paying indirectly to fund the planting of trees or renewable energy projects should not be a ticket to pollute.

If anything should be done, governments should remove subsidies to the oil and gas industry, consumers pay the real cost of fuel, and force companies to pay into a research fund for any excesses in carbon emissions. Paying into the fund will also entitle these companies to any returns or profits made off of technologies that might be developed out if it.

Carbon offsets are like lotteries. People only pay into them out of self-interest. Underneath, there is a social benefit. In the case of lotteries, a number of charities benefit. With carbon offsets, the environment. But they only exist for selfish reasons: lotteries offer the dream of being rich; carbon offsets assuage guilt or gives someone a sense of entitlement when it comes to environmental damage. But wouldn't this work much better if we were directly charitable, and environmentally aware?

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Nimetic

I don't really trust the schemes. But I might donate to some native vegetation groups... in part because I think that's a worthwhile cause of itself.

Ultimately I think it's about reducing our carbon emissions though. I'm in agreement there.

kutulu

Offsets are great but if you are doing it to make your lifestyle of excess guilt-free you are missing the point. Drive a more efficient car, live in a smaller home, make smarter purchases.

flstf

I guess carbon offsets for those who believe that having a smaller carbon footprint is necessary is a way for them to justify using large amounts of energy instead of cutting back. It seems like trying to buy your way into heaven and still sinning profusely.

Nisses

So now you're supposed to feel guilty for taking part in this society?

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Baraka_Guru

"Taking part" is vague. If by this you mean ignorantly going about your business, following marketing messages and the status quo, then, no, you're not supposed to feel guilty. Whether you should all depends on the impact you have on others.

If by "taking part" you simply mean doing whatever you want, the same applies.

When you consider "society," you should also consider the differences between "individualism" and "community."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

abaya

What if you are just doing it because you want to, and it doesn't seem to do any harm? I don't feel particularly guilty about my lifestyle, mostly because it's pretty damn low-energy already. I don't see offsets as being a "license" to buy a Hummer and gas it up every day and never recycle and dump shit all over the country. Quite the contrary... it goes along with my existing values regarding the environment.

I purchased my first carbon offset over the weekend when I was buying tickets for us to fly within Europe (via EasyJet)... it was the first time I'd ever been given the option, and I'm aware that jet fuel consumption on its own is very problematic to the environment. So it seemed like a good idea, and was quite inexpensive. What's the harm in contributing a bit?

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Cynthetiq

how much was it?

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kutulu

What you are talking about it a completely different case altogether and IMO should be the real drive for using offsets.

stevie667

If people feel so guilty about their carbon emissions they should take care of their garden, or, not having a garden, buy some more house plants.

The carbon offsetting is variable. Some companies plant trees, other companies buy unused carbon credits from other companies. Make sure your scheme is actually doing something constructive.

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Baraka_Guru

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you're asking here. Could you please rephrase the question?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

blade02

So you buy these things? Like actually pay someone else money because you're being bad to the enviroment?

If one wants to spend their money on the enviroment, why not INVEST it in companies that are developing alternative energy sources. Sure not every company will succeed, but you still have a chance of making money on the deal. If you buy these carbob credit thingies, then you have NO chance of making money. I mean if you want to pay people to plant trees, have someone landscape your yard.

Cynthetiq

The question was to abaya, who said she purchased carbon offsets when she flew easyjet. It was an option as part of the purchase of her plane ticket.

somehow i quoted you by mistake.

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filtherton

I don't know what the problem is; you pay someone else to go out of their way to do something good for the environment, not necessarily because you don't want to do so on your own, but because it isn't really feasible for you to do so at the moment. It sucks that some folks use them as an excuse to be less environmentally friendly, but that doesn't mean that, as a whole, they aren't a good idea.

As far as big business goes, carbon offsets are a means of incentivising reductions in carbon production, which, unless you're still in denial about global warming, is a good thing.

abaya

Ah, that clears things up! Well, for a flight from Paris to Milan, which cost ktspktsp and I something like 127 Euros each ($170), we paid around $4.00 each for our carbon offset. So, $8 for two people, which I consider to be worth it.

EasyJet is also very clear about what their policy is, what the money is used for, how they calculate the cost, etc (and no, it's not for "planting trees."). It's more like what blade02 said... investing in environmentally-responsible companies, at least in EasyJet's case.

Check the following link for that info, if you are interested... EasyJet's Carbon Offset Policy

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flstf

This offsetting of objectionable activity seems to be catching on. Soon we may be able to offset things like drinking, smoking, overeating, criminal activity, etc.. One group even offers to offset our cheating:
http://www.cheatneutral.com/

BigBaldRon

Um, you people do realize that Al Gore is on the board of the largest "carbon credit" companies in the world, right? Means he's getting PAID to talk about global warming............. and making you feel bad about it........

Baraka_Guru

You mean he makes money by helping clean up the planet? Hm. Good for him. I hope he makes a lot of money; maybe he will use it to start up other initiatives.

Carbon credits first became widely established with the Kyoto Protocol. Al Gore didn't invent them. So he wants to help run a business that creates carbon sinks? Good for him. It's better than mowing down rain forests or drilling for oil in the arctic. Making money isn't bad in and of itself, nor is promoting ideas that might make you money. It's the kind of work you do and its impact on the world.

And if one feels bad after listening to Gore's message, it isn't Gore's fault.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

abaya

I still don't get why many of you feel so righteously indignant about carbon offsets. It's not like someone (not even Al Gore!) is holding a gun to your head to participate. If you don't like them, then just ignore them. They're certainly not hurting you.

__________________
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filtherton

I think the complaints about offsets are the last twitches of a failed ideology. As it becomes more and more clear that climate change is something to be taken seriously - so clear that even american big business is starting to move in that direction, the people who've spent so much time jumping up and down and screaming that climate change isn't important need a way to ease out of that flawed perspective. The act of complaining is almost like the grease by which one's ideology can be reoriented to fit with reality.

So they find themselves in a troubling spot, where they complain about commodification of carbon, as if they aren't generally proponents of commodification of all sorts.

Cynthetiq

so you mean to say that privatized companies that give this belief is to the betterment of global warming? that the big businesses shouldn't be lobbying congress to make the changes across the board for ALL companies?

again, to say that I can just purchase some "planted trees" or "invest in some good company" seems a bit silly to me like buying a pig in a poke to feel better about what I'm doing.

how do i know that the $8 spent on the carbon credits actually did something instead of getting put into the same monies of the company and then only a small percentage out to the green company investments?

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filtherton

Could you rephrase this? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it.

Well, it's not all that different from giving to an organization that helps homeless people as opposed to going out and helping them yourself. Does that seem like buying a pig in a poke to feel better about yourself?

It can be as simple as a matter of scale, whereby a company that already has systems and infrastructure in place can be more effective per dollar spent than an individual.

Certainly there is a lot that can be done by the individual to lessen their carbon footprint, but that doesn't mean that there's something unethical about spending money to reduce overall carbon outputs without doing all that one can on an individual level.

A good point, but one that is more about the trustworthiness of corporations in general than the significance of carbon credits. I would assume that any carbon offset selling company worth its salt would need to have a lot of transparency.

abaya

Yep, I was just thinking that you could say the same about charities... there's always bad apples out there, but that doesn't mean you should stop giving to all of them as a result. I found EasyJet's page to be fairly transparent... more than I expected, at least. They were detailed enough that one could probably look up the green company itself, contact it, and do a background check... no harm in doing that, either.

Once again, you're under no obligation to do a carbon offset, so why the protest? Just curious.

__________________
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Charlatan

negative externalities

This is what needs to be factored into every purchase you make. Carbon offsets present an opportunity to factor these hidden costs into your purchases.

Perhaps the better way would be for governments to build them into a tax on industry. Any takers on higher taxes? Didn't think so.

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djtestudo

Wait a minute.

One of the criticisms of the Bush Administration is that many involved are also involved (or have been in the past) with oil and energy companies.

Now, there is a point to which there is a criticism to be made (mostly about who is setting the energy policy, right or wrong), but why is it OK to criticize one major political figure for having a monetary interest in a certain area, but to brush aside the same issue from another?

Is it because you simply disagree with one while agreeing with the other?

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filtherton

Well, i don't think that there were any reasonable criticisms of bush based merely on the fact that he was involved in the energy industry. I think the complaints were more concerned with which parts of the energy industry he was involved with. The complaints i had, and mostly still have, were more based on his seeming commitment to helping line the pockets of oil company shareholders whilst ignoring the emerging importance of energy efficiency and alternative energy in the contexts of economic and military safety and security.

Clearly, the world is going to need to change directions in terms of energy consumption and production. Oil will be part of the answer, but the fact that the bush admin focused on it almost exclusively for a considerable period of time (even using money set aside specifically for renewable energy projects to print out little booklets detailing his oil rich energy policy), is just another example of the bush administration's keen ability to squander opportunity wherever it may present itself.

Baraka_Guru

Wait another minute.

When did this become about the Bush Administration? I thought we were talking about Al Gore and carbon offsets. I don't recall criticizing Bush's involvement in the oil & gas industry. But if you want my opinion on this, all you had to do was ask instead of making assumptions.

I have nothing against Bush making profits in oil, so long as he does so ethically. If you were to tell me Bush spends his free time advocating the benefits of gas-heated homes over electric, I wouldn't have a problem. If, however, you can give me evidence that his decision on Iraq was motivated by oil, I would certainly have a problem. If he wants to drill for oil while disregarding the environment and the well-being of the local population, I would have a problem with this too.

So far, I have yet to hear of Gore causing strife or destruction to fulfill his agenda of carbon neutrality, offsets, sinks, or whatever. And for that reason, I see nothing wrong with his making money in an industry of which he is an advocate. This is a common practice.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

I have no protest. I think it silly that Mr. Gore touts the benefits of offsests but still doesn't downsize his life to fit into something more reasonable. I find that objectionable.

I don't find offsets themselves objectionable. Again, I find it odd that someone can just buy "indulgences" like they did to the church centuries ago. I don't agree that one should play a system in order to make themselves feel better or look better within the community.

As far as homeless and outreach programs are concerned, I do agree it is a matter of scale. But at the same time, giving your leftover doggy bag to some panhandler or making an extra sandwhich or handing a dollar directly to a homeless person is similar to cutting back on energy consumption directly. But to continue to waste food and not give anything directly to the homeless and just to outreach for the sake of getting Homeless Points seems kind of silly.

If you want to donate to green companies, I'm all for that. But to attention whore it with a score card system seems a bit more like not doing it for the need but more doing it to show someone else you care.

Yes, I'd rather pay higher taxes than so called FEES.

If it's a tax, call it that. Call a spade a spade. I'm fucking sick and tired of companies taking on fees and then saying that they aren't taxes. But I don't want to pay that extra fee that isn't part of the service.

I pay alot in taxes. I'd be happy to pay more if there was specific uses that weren't allowed to be touched unless for those specific uses. I know all too much they borrow from funds here and there all over the damned place.

An example of this is the E911 fee you pay for your cellular service. I've been paying it for over a decade. It is mandatory to pay this fee. Yet the service that E911 is supposed to provide is that they are supposed to pin point your location instantly. But somehow that money that's MILLIONS of dollars hasn't gotten used for that. People have died because the E911 service still isn't fully implemented in New York City.

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abaya

I don't quite understand what you mean? What score card system? Maybe I am totally ignorant, but other than this thread coming up and you asking me how much my carbon offset was, I told no one else about the $8 we spent there. I don't see it as a matter of making myself look better or assuaging any guilt... as I said previously, I already have quite a low-impact lifestyle (especially in Iceland) and just plain thought it was a good idea to contribute. Once again, it's *optional*. Opt out if you want, no one is going to really care...

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Cynthetiq

Well here in NYC there's lots of discussion of carbon credits this past year, I hear people discussing it like cholesterol levels. There were a number of articles in the papers and trades.

I know of a number of people who aren't doing anything to reduce their carbon footprint but just buying offets because it is what allows them to participate in the caring for the environment discussions that normally were too "hippy" for them.

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abaya

Huh, wow... maybe it's a NYC thing? I had hardly heard about carbon offsets before we left for Iceland... the EasyJet thing was the first time I'd heard about it here, go figure.

But if that's the case for you, then yeah... I'd be pretty annoyed with that behavior as well. The fact that they are purchasing carbon offsets just so they can *participate* in a discussion shows you how worthwhile it is to be talking to them, I suppose (note sarcasm). Seriously though... wtf?!

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Charlatan

The only reason I hear about carbon offsets is because I've seen Gore's movie and have been following US stories.

There is very little discussion of it here.

I have a feeling that like many things it will be adopted by trendsetters first and then spread out to the masses after.

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serlindsipity

I work for a company that purchases carbon credits. We have done as much as we can to be low-impact but since our primary issue is the CO2 given off in shipping our items, we can only counteract it by purchasing carbon credits.

Some investments are BS I will admit but other times, companies know where the money is going. It isnt just a justification to do bad, it is an investment in future alternatives that will hopefully negate the continued need for carbon credits.

If you dont believe the money is anything more than blood money, well I am sorry. But if you are willing to do your homework, find out where this money is going to. You might be surprised (and I mean that in a positive way.)

If you want to find out what your carbon footprint is, check out www.drivinggreen.com and see what it tells you about your car. Its what our company used to figure out what carbon we give off when transporting product. Its a useful company and has helped us be a carbon neutral company.

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kutulu

Are you referring to carbon credits in a Kyoto manner or offsets like discussed in this thread?

The company I work for mainly serves the solid waste industry. We design landfill gas collection systems. Since Kyoto, we've been picking up a lot of international work (mainly South and Central America).

The way Kyoto works for us is that anyone can implement real emissions controls and estimate the net reduction in terms of carbon equivalent. They get carbon credits that can be sold to other nations.

We find landfills that may generate enough landfill gas (50% CO2, 50% methane) to be able to have a gas system, design and build it, and the owner of the landfill gets to sell the credits. It gets better if they put in a genset. They can use the landfill gas to generate electricity. Not a lot, just a couple of megawatts. Still, every little bit helps.

The same can be done here but in order to get the credits that can be sold on the market, the facility cannot be required by law to have the system in. That's why places like South and Central America work well. There is basically no govt agency that regulates the environment.

For all the bitching people have about Kyoto, this is one way the treaty is actually helping our economy. Those systems are not cheap to design and install.

BadNick

We sell a small temperature control valve that we manufacture to a European company whose business plan is to manufacture a water purifying device that requires no external power source and is very simple and very cheap and thus can be widely used in third-world countries where availability of clean drinking water is a huge problem and threat to human life/health; and because of how the device works, the company obtains carbon credits via the Kyoto Protocol for each one they put into use, and to me the most interesting part of the business plan is that the credits are profitable enough that they can give away the water purification device for free. Sounds too good to be true so I still have some doubts, but that's the plan.

Until reading this thread, I had no idea that "people on the street" could buy or deal in carbon credits. I'll have to get more informed on this aspect of the scheme.

kutulu

I don't know if individuals actually can purchase carbon credits. One thing to remember is that there is a difference between offsets and credits. Offsets are things like planting trees, energy reduction, etc. There is little regulation (if any).

Carbon credits (like the ones my company deals with) are real emissions reductions that satisfy the requirements of Kyoto. Kyoto is basically a cap and trade program. Nations are assigned CO2 emissions caps. The nation may then assign caps on emitters. If a company makes a change that reduces emissions below their cap (assuming the change meets certain requirements of course), the business recieves credits that they can either hold onto for later or sell on the market. Emitters that cannot stay under their cap, either because it costs too much to install the necessary equipment or because they want to expand, purchase credits.

The whole idea of cap and trade isn't unique to Kyoto. We do it here in the US for volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and sulfur dioxide (SO2) (maybe even CO and NOx as well) in regions that are classified as non-attainment areas. There is also a voluntary carbon trading market called the Chicago Climate Exchange.

MechCow

I saw a billboard near my house which was for a new saab sports car and the words "Greeeeeeeeeeeeeeen" ... you may have seen it. The ad said they planted 17 trees when you bought this car.

I think carbon credits are in themselves a good idea, especially for large companies. The problem is that people attribute to much to their value and there is a tendency to say I'm/this company is carbon-neutral so therefore climate change is now reversed. People are desperate to escape that feeling of impending doom and guilt so they will latch on to anything that seems like a solution to that.

analog

If the money goes to legitimate sources of tree-planting and green research, then I say let people pay their guilt money... because like any charity, it's not nearly as successful if they're not guilted into donating.

Sion

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