lurkette

1. We live in a large (2600 sf) house, built in 1890. It's a bear to heat and cool. Environmentally speaking, would we be better off a. staying in the house and attempting to alter its energy use (ideas, anyone? Solar panels?) or b. building an eco-friendly house (e.g., made with natural and/or recycled materials, designed to use very little energy, etc.). We, personally, would be using less energy, but someone would be living in our inefficient old house, so would it really be a net gain, environmentally speaking?

2. We are about to replace our Miata with something that doesn't hurt ratbastid's back. He would like a small SUV (a Toyota Highlander or Rav4, both of which get mileage comparable to a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry), I am having an aneurysm over it Ustwo used to go on and on about why gas mileage is pretty much irrelevant to the environment. I didn't believe him then and I'm not sure I believe it now just because it would soothe my conscience. However, if anybody has any compelling scientific environmental arguments for an against the purchase (or lease, as ratbastid is planning) of these vehicles in favor of something else, I'd like to hear it. Hybrids are not really an option partially because of cost and partially because their actual performance is rather disappointing, as is pointed out in another thread around here.

Thanks!

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Willravel

1) Is the house insulated? Double pain windows? Attic fan? Any trees covering the house? I'm curious what we're working with.
2) Think of better gas mileage vehicles like light potato chips. If you eat the same amount of chips, then you're doing better. Some people, however, think because the chips are light they can eat more... and they end up with just as much fat. Likewise, many people with 35+ mph cars drive A LOT, and it ends up they use just as much gas as those who drive less in lower mpg vehicles. As long as you keep total consumption down, you're doing good for the environment.

xepherys

1. Will has it more or less right. Insulation is key in older houses. You might want to check the insulation anyway to make sure there is no asbestos. Kill two birds with one stone, right? Anyways, insulation, roofing, windows (double-pain, gas-filled), doors (large spaces along sides, top, bottom). How old is your furnace? Is it gas or electrically powered? Appliances? Are they energy-star compliant? If you have the real estate available to put up solar, it never hurts. It's not cheap to get into though. When TotalMILF and I get a house, one of my first big projects will be supplementing our home with solar (and maybe even a small wind turbine depending on our location).

2. Again, will has it exactly right. My mother-in-law has an early Prius, and it works great. The newer models are even better. I know you said a hybrid is out of the question, but have you looked at all hybrid options? Even Petro-CNG?

__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato

My Homepage

lurkette

Re: Insulation: the house has practically NO eaves/attic space in the upstairs; where there is space, we have had insulation blown in. The house is pretty air-tight, according to the guy who did our insulation. The windows are mostly original to the house (mostly painted shut), and mostly single-pane except, functionally, where we have left storm windows on. Nonetheless, 2600 sf is 2600 sf, and the upstairs in particular is a bear to cool in the summer. It's like a sunroom up there, with no shade and pretty much constant sun on all surfaces. It would actually be the perfect roof for solar panels.

We have electric A/C (2 heat pumps - 1 for upstairs and one for down). I don't know how old our furnace is; it's a natural gas furnace. The appliances are probably not the best. We're about to replace the gas stove with a new gas stove; the fridge still works, as do the washer, dryer, and dishwasher. Seems less wasteful to continue using less-efficient but functional machines than to throw away perfectly good ones and replace them, but my logic could be flawed. Is discarding the fridge, to rot in a landfill or be used in someone else's house a worth the energy saved by buying a new, energy-efficient one? (Discounting for the moment the fact that we can't afford all new appliances right this minute.)

Tell me more about Petro-CNG?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

BadNick

How is your old house built? Is it stone wall or frame wall? My impression is that almost all of the older homes, even ones with 18" thick stone walls, have very poor "R" value, the measure of heat insulating value of the wall. Even a simple frame wall made to modern construction standards and with normal insulation has a much higher R value than these old homes. My point is that it is not easy to raise the R value of a stone wall without greatly upsetting it's esthetics; at least with an old frame type wall you can add insulation.

About the hybrid vehicles being more environmentally sensitive, I guess this is more my rhetorical question than an answer since I'm not sure:

I've been hearing/reading more lately about the bigger global-economic picture with these vehicles being that while they emit less noxious stuff, it takes a lot more noxious emissions/pollution to manufacture that type of vehicle and the balance is not in their favor. I actually have this on my "things to look into" but don't know the current "facts".

PS: we did buy an '07 RAV4 a couple months ago and I love it and so does my wife and kids, so it's a big winner in our house. We weren't looking for ultimate economy, just something mid/small with more utility than a car and not as big as most SUV's that is comfortable and reliable.

Strange Famous

heating?

Pah!

When it's cold I just wear a coat indoors. Thats how rugged I am!

But anyway... solar panels can just about handle heating the hot water tank, but they arent so great (or at least the one's my neighbour used to have werent)...

The question is... America is a very energy efficient society on the whole (and relatively)... if you spend $1000 on saving energy, the impact of that is far far less than $1000 spent in China, India, Brazil or one of the industrialising economies. And i guess you could apply that to a smaller and more personal scale. Using insulation and so on is all sensible stuff cos it saves you money as well - but the impact of living in an eco friendly house or a normal house is fairly minimal to the benefit you could have - for example - starting up a local free-cycle group. Thats how I'd look at it anyway - investing my personal efforts in the greatest net benefit rather than in the thing that caused the most personal sacrifice... although the latter may be better for the soul of course.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

This guy is on a roll today!!

That's true! Solar panels on a hot roof = energy effiency. Warning: they're still expensive. I'm waiting for the price of solar shingles to go down, myself.

You need to cool upstairs. You need open windows and shades on the side of the room facing the sun. You might also want awnings over the windows that get the most sun. Is the upstairs somewhere you live in often? Or are you downstairs types during the day? Also, heat can be decreased by planting trees to cover areas of your home that get too much sun. I've found that the trees in my front and court yards are my best energy efficient things. They cover about half my roof most of the day, and prevent a great deal of direct heat from the sun. Also, they're renewable.
Fridges can be recycled, and many states pay you a bit when you get energy efficient appliances.

lurkette

I researched solar panels, and found that for a fraction of a fraction of the cost we can buy into NCGreenpower - $4/share per month buys a certain amount of renewably-generated energy, so you're basically displacing non-renewable energy with renewable. 5 shares per month would save more energy in a year than a 5KWH solar system that costs $27K AFTER the $10K tax credit and only saves about 10% on our energy bill. Buying 5 shares for 12 months removes carbon emissions equivalent to not driving for an entire year. If we save up we might consider solar panels but it hardly seems worth the cost - they don't seem very efficient.

Unfortunately we are RIGHT on a busy street (we have a postage-stamp front yard, and if I look straight down from the windows on the south side of our house I see sidewalk and bus stop) so there's no planting anything on the south/west sides of our house. The other side of the house gets shade pretty much all day thanks to the giant oak trees next door. We already have shades on the windows, but awnings might be a good idea.

ORLY? I will look into the local recycling program and our state's policy on appliances.

Keep 'em coming!

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Elphaba

If you're not ready to make some major (expensive) changes to your home, I have some poor-man ideas that might improve the hot/cold issue.

- Your sf. suggests that you can move all of your regularly used living spaces downstairs, and less used upstairs. It's less expensive to heat or cool a single guest room than the entire upstairs.

- Install a door at the top of the stairs with weather stripping, so your heating/cooling efforts downstairs stays there.

- Use insulated curtains or shades on the sun side of the house.

- Use magnetic storm windows until you are ready to replace the old ones.

- And like Wise Will said, vent your roof.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

lurkette

The SF would suggest that, but the layout vetoes! We use 2 bedrooms and 2 baths upstairs; we could convert the 2 connected offices downstairs into bedrooms, but privacy would be an issue as the doors are glass. The downstairs bathroom is also more like 3/4 bath - very small (maybe 5x7) and not big enough for 3 ppl to get ready in.

We have a door at the bottom of the stairs (the top of the stairs is open - it's a switchback staircase that opens into a sort of clerestory-like landing - there's no doorway per se at the top) that we could close. It's glass, however, so not very insulating. Still, might help. The problem is, the upstairs is where we sleep and ratbastid is a goddamn furnace. We need to keep the upstairs fairly cool. I'm doing all I can with passive cooling - windows open at night, closed and shaded during the day - but it's NC, and at this time of year the nighttime temps are still in the mid to high 70s, so it doesn't do much good. We kind of deliberately leave the door open so the downstairs cooling system can lend a hand to the poor, overworked upstairs cooling system.


I missed that suggestion...what does that mean exactly? There are 3 eaves spaces that are insulated...do you mean vent those?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

The_Jazz

Well, damn, you should have told us that to start.

The obvious solution is to heat your house with ratbastid. I'm sure the three of you can figure out some sort of interesting ductwork to maximize his efficiency. And I'm sure he'd enjoy it if it's done on his terms.

/jokes

If I get this correctly, you can still put a door at the bottom of the staircase, which would serve the same purpose. If you decide that making the move downstairs (or upstairs if that works better), then that door might work. If not, you can try weatherstripping the bedroom doors and moving the thermostat into one of those rooms (might require some electrical skills). That way you're monitoring the sealed room and not the rest of the upstairs.

If you decide to move downstairs, you can put curtains/shades on the glass doors for privacy. The bathroom is another issue, obviously, and might require some serious reconstruction to make it workable.

If you're going to swap out major appliances, I'd start with the heat pumps unless they're relatively new, then move to the water heater then to the kitchen. The first two are going to have a more of an impact on the overall efficiancy of the house.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Willravel

The idea is that in whatever area is right under your roof, heat can collect. In a standard home with an attic, the heat gathers between the roof of the house and your ceiling, and without proper ventilation can actually heat up your house pretty badly. It also presents an opportunity to make a buffer zone between your hot roof and ceiling, if you have an area between your ceiling and roof. If you can keep cooler air moving through that space, it can prevent the cumulative collected heat in that space from heating your home, and can actually keep it near the temperature of a shaded area. In my house, I'm going to be installing several attic fans to promote circulation. We're anticipating having to use our AC less because of it. BTW, they make solar attic fans, so when the sun is out, your crawl-space is ventilated.

lurkette

OK, maybe this will help - some very quick & dirty drawings showing kind of how the house is laid out. It's a "dutch colonial" four-square; we think it was one-story to start with, and they added the 2nd story in a kind of "cross" formation with flat roofs, except for the front which has a slight peak to give it a barn sort of look. The ceilings are all really high because, except in the bathroom, there's no attic space above. There's ceiling, then rafters, then roof. Period. What little eaves/attic space there is has been insulated to the best of our ability. I don't know if they're vented or not, but it would be worth checking it out.

Attached Images

	house.GIF (4.1 KB, 177 views)
	house2.GIF (7.4 KB, 178 views)

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Willravel

Oh, is that you in the bottom window? You have a very beautiful home.

Okay, so taking into account there is no space between the roof and ceiling to act as a barrier, you must turn your upstairs into a monsoon. The best way to do this is to pull in air from the cooler side(s) of the house and push them out the other cool sides. As stated, you pull the drapes and close windows on the hot side of the house to insulate against the sun, but you can't pull drapes on the roof (although...), so you're still gathering a great deal of heat from above. Point incoming fans up if you don't have ceiling fans. The idea is to make sure the air can't sit under the ceiling and get hot because it's moving away too fast. You also should test to find the best time of day to just open up everything. Usually this is just before dusk, but it's going to depend on the breeze and outside temperature. It's a trial and error type thing, usually.

ratbastid

I am an extremely efficient space heater.

I'm thinking that some cross-ventilation might be the trick. The windows in the guest room aren't really in use right now. Maybe if we opened those up at night and cross-ventilated the whole upstairs, it would cool us down quicker at night.

I don't mind the upstairs getting hot during the day--my office stays cool, and that's really all I use during the day (excepting trips to the kitchen and bathroom, obviously). But going to bed at 11:00 and having the bedroom be 85 degrees? Not so good.

lurkette

What about painting the flat part with reflective paint? Is that dumb?

Hm...The clerestory thing above the stairwell and landing has 2 windows up WAY high - one on the north and one on the south side. If we figured out some way to open and shut them, and blow the hot air out them with fans, that might help a lot, as that space turns into a huge column of hot air. I wonder if we brought in some dry ice if we could create an indoor thunderstorm?

So...the general consensus seems to be that it would be better, ecologically speaking, to stay in our current house and make it more efficient, rather than abandoning it and its inefficiencies to someone else in favor of a new "green" house?

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Willravel

No, that's a good question. I'm not sure about how the application of different paint finishes may effect thermodynamics, but it's entirely possible that flat paint may absorb heat while semi-gloss could reflect it.
That'd be boss. What I would do is get a ladder and install some way to open them from the ground. Many higher windows have sticks or ropes attached to the in order to open them from the ground. I don't know what kind of windows you have, so I don't know for sure if that will work.
Well it'd be a lot cheaper.

lurkette

I had in mind something more like metallic paint, like they put on the roofs of trailer houses . Actually, a cursory google search turned this up: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-ref...f-coatings.htm

Judging by the googlemaps image of our house, the part of our roof that is flat is not shingled but is white-ish may already be coated with reflective paint, but maybe we can upgrade it or something.

The windows have little loops on them for pulling them open (presumably with a really long pole with a hook on it? They're a good 8-10 feet from the floor) but when the previous owners updated the HVAC they ran the ductwork around the clerestory just under the windows, so there's this big ledge (through which the ductwork runs) kind of in the way.

http://flickr.com/photos/29425092@N0...in/set-645316/

However, this seems like just the kind of jerry-rigging engineering job I like to throw my brain at. Thanks for the idea!

Attached Images

houseoverhead.jpg (5.0 KB, 160 views)

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Charlatan

You should look into green roofs. You plant grass on your flat roof (using a special system). It retains run off water and helps to cool the house in summer and heat it in winter.

You may not have a big enough flat part of your roof to make a diffference though.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

Have you considered re-jigging all your floors with heating systems? Apparently, there is less heat loss through walls and ceilings with them. Plus, I've heard it heats more efficiently than if you heated the air directly as do traditional systems.

One example:

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Wow, you have a beautiful home. One could create an "L" shaped tool to open the windows that you keep on permanently (so you don't have to put it up every time) or a string/rope situation.

ngdawg

Your home is really pretty. Being someone who loves old houses so much, I couldn't stand to live in an even 50 year old one, so I know how it is to keep these relics relatively stable in the heat and cold. Mine's just shy of 100 years old and when we bought it, it had the old weighted paned windows, big iron radiators and NO insulation at all.
We changed the radiators and oil heat to gas-fired hotwater baseboard. We replaced the windows with doublepaned vinyl clad ones. In the winter, we put shrinkwrap plastic over the windows to keep out drafts even further. We insulated the dormer, specially around the bathroom(the tub drain used to freeze!)
Every room has a ceiling fan. Downstairs, the ceilings are 9ft high, which helps with keeping the rooms cool, but all that heat gets trapped up there.
We have a large window fan downstairs that we set on drawing out air so every room gets a breeze(blowing in air doesn't do squat, really).
Air conditioners, among other appliances, can be had relatively cheap with a 10.0 or higher rating and, at least up here, we get a refund of part of the purchase price. Check with your utility provider.
To minimize costs, which also helps minimize eco-rudeness, we do some little things: We hang the laundry instead of drying it dry. We cook outside on the (propane) grill, even roasts. And use the microwave a LOT. We never run the AC's on high and we keep the thermostat on 66 in the winter. Our hot water isn't even hooked up to the washer, which is a front loader-uses a third of the water and energy of one with an agitator and doesn't harm clothes as much if at all.
Most of the things we do save us a bundle in utility costs every year; the best year we had gave us a credit balance of over $200. I wish more people would realize that being even a little eco-friendly is also good for the wallet.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Elphaba

I am soooo in love with your home. I strongly recommend that you rescue this older home with current technology, rather than abandon it to someone that may not care as much as you and rb do.

I remember when you chose this home that it was within a neighborhood that was being renewed with wonderful community entertainment and businesses within walking distance. Consider how far away you must go to purchase land for a new home. Your question concerning environmental action should also consider the costs of an outlying lifestyle. "Suburbia" was created on the promise of cheap oil and a massive road system. Peak oil will make this lifestyle choice impossible to continue in the near future.

Well...like Molly says.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

snowy

I don't know about your power company, but out here Pacific Power has an employee whose job it is to go out to customers' houses and evaluate them for energy efficiency, and make recommendations. Additionally, the power company offers all sorts of incentives for upgrading appliances, windows, and other things that improve energy efficiency.

It's pretty awesome. I'd contact your power company and ask if they have similar, or look on their website.

If I lived in your house, I would probably prefer to make it energy efficient in whatever manner possible, versus building new. Plus, there are plenty of things you can do to retrofit your house!

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Ustwo

I'm gone for a year or so and still my name is invoked. You will learn happiness when you always believe Ustwo.

I find such fretting over energy consumption to be amusing, its sort of a 'my life is so good what can I stress about' kind of problem.

Without getting too much into it, you should know my opinion on this, though my guess is its somewhat distorted view of it, get the damn suv, if it hurts rats back I'm sure Gia will forgive you. Back pain directly effects the quality of someones life.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

kutulu

If you refuse to accept that CO2 contributes to global warming then it is perfectly acceptable to think that low mileage is damaging to the environment. I strongly disagree with the first part but if that is your opinion on global warming then it is perfectly logical.

Get the RAV4 because it gets better mileage than most SUVs and try to limit its mileage as much as possible. I recently got a Ford Explorer for free. We drive it about 100 miles per month because the mileage sucks and we rarely need the second vehicle.

Willravel

Energy consumption is also costly, Ustwo, something a capitalist can appreciate. If you can get from a to b in a 32 mpg car vs. a big old SUV, you've saved money that can be spend elsewhere.

Ustwo

If you are worried about CO2 production, support legislation to build more nuclear plants, they don't contribute to global warming in any model, no matter how poorly researched.

Now for the gas, it is expensive right now. Not socialist expensive like in Europe or Canada, but expensive compared to most historical highs (I'm not sure if its the most expensive though adjusted for inflation, it doesn't matter if it is though).

Still that doesn't mean you don't spend money when it improves the quality of your life. If that means an SUV then spend it there, if there is some other vehicle that will work for back comfort then get that one.

Even Al Gore has been spotted in a Cadillac Escalade.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

tecoyah

Off topic but.....

It's good to have you back Ustwo

Willravel

Well of course, if having a 4x4 Suburban makes your life happy and you're willing to fill your 130 gallon tank that manages to squeak by at 9 mpg, then I suppose you might as well go for it. As someone who developed asthma as a repercussion for bad pollution in the silicon valley in the 80s, let's not pretend there isn't a cost for automotive emissions, though. We could go in circles for ages about global warming, but air pollution has positively been linked with breathing disorders like asthma for decades now.

Elphaba

That would be an "or so" of five months.


Lurkette, any news to share with us?

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

Midnight

one thing i didnt see asked was if this house is paid for or if payments are still being made on it. if it is paid for - it makes more sense to stay where you are and invest in "upgrading" to a more energy efficient status. building a green home will save money in the long run, but is not so inexpensive to build to begin with. also, selling and moving to another home, depending on your area valuse might put you in a position where (if your current home is paid off already) you are paying more out in house payments than you would be saving in efficency. Money that you could have put into upgrading the current house. also, the money invested in the home you are in now will bring a return as "green upgrades" if you should decide to give in and sell later.

oh something else - a lighter color roof tile will help with your cooling in the summer - dont know if a new roof is in your immediate future or not, but its another thing to think about when the time comes.

analog

I agree with the "weatherstrip the bedrooms upstairs and move the thermostat into one of them" comment. Also, if there are any vents that empty into common areas of the upstairs, close them off so they put out a much smaller volume of air. If the biggest issue is nighttime use, you want all the air headed for the bedroom as possible.

Also, if you're going to open windows on the top floor, you're only getting some of the venting benefit if you aren't also opening at least one window downstairs (and leaving that glass door at the stairs open).

If windows upstairs are open, you only get cross-breeze. If you open a window (just one) downstairs and make sure it's open through to the upstairs, the whole house will vent heat upwards and out the windows above. Just make sure the window you open downstairs isn't facing the sun... you want the coolest air coming in that you can.

Don't open all the windows upstairs though, just one or maybe two if they're directly opposite each other. The more windows you open upstairs, the less effective it will be, because you're alleviating all the pressure that makes the vent work.

Also, you may notice that it's cooler downstairs because cool air is being sucked in as the hot air escapes upstairs.

Necrosis

A friend made the statement recently that he didn't work hard to conserve. His exact words were "Let's say we conserve the shit out of water and electricity. They'll just build more houses here."

There is probably a counter to that philosophy, but I didn't come up with one.

Baraka_Guru

How about we remove most if not all government subsidies on gas production and let the consumer pay a more realistic price. Seriously, why does water cost more than gasoline?

We should make people pay the real price of meat, too, considering the environmental effects of meat production. But that's another issue.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

Yes, because it would be awesome to have the average height back to 5'7" due to lack of protein consumption.

You think the government is keeping gas CHEAP? In Europe its almost all tax that keeps it stupid high, in the US we still have a hell of a lot of gas tax, and on top of it the crazy EPA standards on what gas can be used where keeps the prices in the Midwest artificially high.

Really did you just say a free market would make the prices of meat and gas higher?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

Actually, Ustwo, I was hinting at a restructuring of the system to make it more efficient (i.e. less wasteful and otherwise environmentally degrading). I apologize for being cryptic.

And did you just say the only source of protein is meat?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

tecoyah

If you really want to do a workup on your house...PM me, thats what I do.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha