analog

Is lying bad or evil if the lie itself is not actually detrimental to anyone in any way?

You know, there's the "little white lie", which is a lie you tell to preserve someone's feelings- like when you say someone is looking good when they clearly look like they just got hit by a truck. They can be much-needed confidence boosters or merely your desire to not tell someone that they look like hell.

Here's the crux of the issue, though...

Is lying inherently evil? Is it- in and of itself- "bad"? Or is it really just the context in which you use it that makes it bad?

I'm talking about a lie that would never, ever hurt anyone in any way- a lie that does not and would never matter in any way- is that still evil just because it's a lie?

Like here's an example...

You are at a random store, out of town, and a total stranger randomly asks you, in a friendly way, what brings you to town. You say that you're there to visit your brother, who just moved there with his new wife. In reality, you're just there on a business trip.

Now, that's a totally harmless lie. This is not a person you know or could ever meet again. This is not someone who ever had, or would ever be in trouble of losing, respect or trust in you. It does nothing other than supply a person with a falsehood in the place of truth.

So what's your viewpoint on lying? Is all lying- just because it's lying- bad?

Willravel

Very little is inherently evil outside of intent, in my mind. Lying can have excellent intentions and can do good, though it's usually better to tell the truth. I'd say when your intent is selfish or negative in some way, lying starts to become destructive and 'bad'.

The Faba

All I know is that in D&D lying is not inheritely evil...

Baraka_Guru

Morally speaking, it is preferable to tell the truth as much as possible. However, if what you would say would cause undue suffering, lying could be a good thing, too. For example, if, during WWII, the SS came to your door and asked if you were rooming any Jews, would you tell them about the Jews you had hidden in the attic? In this case, it would be morally wrong to tell the truth.

It isn't about whether you tell the truth that determines your being good or evil, it is the outcome of the effect of your words. So, in the case of the OP, the lie about the reason for being in town would be relatively harmless. But the problem with it is that there would be no moral reason to tell the lie, making it insincere and therefore questionable. Not evil, but not necessarily good either. What if the stranger had an interest in meeting the new neighbours? Would you continue to lie? How do you think he or she would feel if your lie was discovered?

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JustJess

I am not likely to lie in either of your examples, analog... I consider the first example an attempt to preserve feelings so it isn't evil to lie about them looking good, BUT I see it as doing more harm than good. If I look like shit, don't SAY "You look like shit" but maybe "Your hair got messed up" or "that shirt isn't very flattering" or something... because if they don't know, they can't fix it. No one likes to feel a fool.

In your second example, I would consider that "wrong" but not "evil". That smacks of pathological lying - lying for the sake of lying. That I definitely wouldn't do.

Come to think of it... I think most lying is wrong, but not "evil". Even when I do it, I think it's wrong... most lying is about avoidance, inability to deal with confrontation, fear of consequences, that sort of thing. (Excepting pathological types of course.) I mean, think about it...

"My dog ate my homework."
"You don't look fat in that dress."
"The trains were messed up and made me late."
"Of course I didn't fuck that hooker."
"No, I don't find your friends attractive!"

Everyone lies about this shit, including me... but I've made a concerted effort over the last few years to avoid even these white lies. They're too easy, and they come to the tongue too quickly. What's the worst that happens if you tell your boss "I'm sorry I'm late - I just couldn't get moving this morning." She's still irritated you're late, but now you're honest at least.

So um, yeah... lying = wrong in my world, but pretty normal human behavior.

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Jetée

I wholeheartedly agree with the above statements as per the verisimilitude and exactitude that are prevalent within the words and meanings of the quoted articulation of what Truth truly is.

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Push-Pull

This is one of those interesting items that public perception (and upbringing) has a great bearing on your opinion. As mentioned, I feel that lying in itself is only evil if the intention for doing so is evil. IMHO, there are plenty of situations where lying is understandable. As an example, how many of us are "lying" with our screen names and are careful (or even misleading?) about specific details of our lives here in this forum? That's done to protect ourselves, I don't find that reprehensible at all......

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Cynthetiq

For me lying is about personal integrity. I try to not lie, especially to myself. I am of the opinion we have trained ourselves to lie to ourselves more often than we care to admit. It takes meditation and reflection on a daily basis to see exactly where it happens but it happens often.

Undercutting my personal integrity is much more destructive to me than it is to any other individual that was lied to.

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ubertuber

I make every effort to avoid lying, even if it is about something that seems inconsequential or beneficial.

I don't know if I think its evil, but denying or contradicting the truth seems to me to be immoral.

On the other hand, I keep the vast majority of my thoughts to myself. I'm very selective about what I say and how I say it.

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quadro2000

I remember an incident that happened to me a number of years ago. I had just gotten the lead role in a play. The director wouldn't give me the script before our first read-through. When I got there and read the play out loud with everyone else, I discovered that the play was absolutely terrible - actually offensive to me in many ways.

I took the script home, showed it to a number of people, and everyone agreed that I should run the hell away from this situation. So I thought about what to do. I don't back out of projects very often. The easy thing would be to say that I got a paying acting job that was going to take me out of town for a few months - any theater company understands that, if you're doing a show for no pay, you go where the money is. But for some reason, I felt bad lying in this case.

So after a couple of days of deliberation, I called up the director and I said, as politely as I could, that I had some serious issues with the script, ones that made me extremely uncomfortable, and I wouldn't feel right doing the play - I felt I wouldn't do it justice with these issues I was having.

The director, who didn't write the script but obviously believed in it, did what I pretty much feared he would do - he hung up on me.

So what did I accomplish by telling the truth? Yeah, I was honest, but a) I burned a bridge (this director has gone on to do projects that are actually good, but I can't ever audition for them), and b) I insulted someone.

Should I have lied?

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medlar

A couple of semesters ago I had a class, where we had to present an oral and discuss the concept of deception/lying in terms of evolution. I just know at that time I could have had a cure for a disease in my head rather than trying to come up with something that would impress the teacher. Not to go too off topic though. It had more to do with how animals can change colour or form to hide so they can prey on animals that believe they are a rock, or a plant which is decieving..which eventually lead onto early humans and how the females had to uncover the deciet in order to find the best mate which then evolved to lying..

Maybe our brains have been programmed to take the easier and more satisfying road to just lie, even if the consequences are greater later on. A lie might just come automatically and some just don't mean to..but iI believe its a conscious choice. I'm not sure if its got to a point where lying is acceptable..people I've known think its easier to just lie, most can get away with them, others don't seem too concerned if it comes back to bite them in the arse later on. Why choose dishonesty..maybe when the truth is harder to face because it forces us to ask of our own faults or someone elses and its much easier to deal with at the present. People lie for a million reasons. The problem lies in those who do it compulsively for their own gain.

Each like has its own reasons..(and I told my teacher there is no philosophy behind..which deducted me of some marks) I've lied to protect someone..not telling them that their bf or gf is cheating on them..Ive lied to get to get what I wanted, to get out of trouble, to not hurt someones feelings, worse I guess..I've lied for the sake of lying. usually to do with girls, or soccer..nothing major. Just something guys my age might do to boost the ego. If I put an example behind every lie I've told that would make this far longer than I'd like.These days I try to be as honest as I can be without hurting someone and without getting caught doing some stupid teenage oriented things.

dirtyrascal7

I believe that context is extremely important, not just in lying, but in nearly every type of human interaction and situation.

I used to be quick to judge people, but then I learned that when you do that, you are essentially making a large number of assumptions... which generally turn out to be wrong. Now I always try to uncover as much information as possible regarding the context of the situation before I react or make a decision.

The point is... and it seems like most people have expressed a similar view... I do my best to follow the values and principles that I have chosen to live by, but if the context of the situation calls for it, I don't believe that lying is inherently bad or evil.

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ubertuber

Hey - it's great to see a post from you!

These two sentences contain the entirety of your problem. If you are an actor who doesn't want to work on projects that you feel you can't support, then this cat is not the director for you, period.

You did the right thing - sometimes that has costs.

BTW, I'm completely hooked on Man Vs. Wild now...

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Jinn

...awesome.

And yea, I think it depends entirely on context.

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Martian

I don't lie in my day to day interactions, but it's more out of pragmatism than anything else. If I'm always honest I never have to remember what I said.

Is the act of lying always wrong? Well, no. But if I've been lied to by someone I have difficulty trusting that person again, even if the lie was about something innocuous.

I think a lot of folks have this idea that honesty equates to tactlessness. While some folks use blunt honesty as an excuse for not having manners, it's really not the same thing. If, for example, I think that dress makes you look fat, I may decide not to comment at all. Or, if asked, I may redirect the query by stating that I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to fashion and therefore not the one to ask.

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Redlemon

I find that I can not speak a lie. Probably instilled from my parents, I'll need to talk it over with them to find out what they did. The only thing I can do is obscure or leave out the truth, but to out-and-out say something that is a lie is something I find very difficult.

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krwlz

The crux of this problem is the definition of "good" and "evil". They do not exist. There are very very few people who do things they consider evil. While you and I might consider their act evil, they may very well see it as the only "good" possibility. Such is the way of the gray area in morality. It is as we define it.

Lasereth

Lying in itself isn't evil, mainly because evil doesn't really exist. But that's sorta off topic.

No, there's no negative "stigma" from lying. Sometimes lying can make someone's day, and seeing someone happy for an entire day rather than sad for an entire day is worth not telling the truth over as long as it's harmless.

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warrrreagl

I am totally fascinated in reading a thread about lying where people are openly saying "I don't lie." Quite a bit of juicy irony there, don't ya think?

Somewhere in a notebook I have a bunch of statistics concerning lies from a police training session where they tell how many lies an average person tells a day, and it varies from face-to-face conversation, phone conversation, or e-mail.

I very firmly believe that every species on this planet is deceptive is some way - it's a basic part of survival. Therefore, lying is a basic part of our fundamental nature as a successful species. And since we seem to be much better at being deceptive than recognizing the deception of others, human society continues to develop laws that help to "even up" the score and try to force people to restrict their deception.

Now, having said all that, check out this story in today's UK Telegraph which suggests that humans begin lying as early as six months old. It's instinctive and genetic folks. It's who we are as a successful species. Deal with it.

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thingstodo

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Get it?

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