Jerry falwell, RIP,
 

from www.cnn.com:

"Rev. Jerry Falwell dead at 73

The Rev. Jerry Falwell has died, a Liberty University executive said Tuesday. He was 73. Ron Godwin, the executive vice president of Falwell's Liberty University, said Falwell was found unresponsive and taken to Lynchburg General Hospital. Godwin said Falwell had "a history of heart challenges.""

i'm conflicted...i've always despised the man, but i never thought he'd die...and here he is..and when i heard the news, the heartless person in me said, "HALLEFUCKINLUJAH" but then, i do have a soul and i'm sad for th passing of almost anyone...
still...i think he was more destructive to our culture than almost any figure in the past 50 yrs...

but that's just me

anyone else have any thoughts to add?

I would much prefer to have found a way to shut him up that did not involve his expiring. I don't celebrate his death, but I will celebrate the fact that a little more hate has left the world.

yeah paq, i have to confess having much the same reaction when i saw it earlier today. i remembered to wish him well and all that, but i can't say that i didn't despise the shit out of him. at first, i thought it was pat robertson and i was almost even more inappropriately happy...i just hate the 700 club pray-a-thons so much...

Jesus turned the lights out and pretended Heaven was closed.



"Man, I do not wanna talk to that sweaty freak..."

Why does he deserve respect just because his body is now decomposing?
Would anyone post a RIP for Fred Phelps when he goes?


Good riddance, you're in for a big surprise fat boy.

/snark
What did he do to remove God's protection from him anyway??

"a history of heart challenges."

...you can say that again.



RIP...you fool.

Why should we be sad when someone so despicable dies? Everyone dies, it's not as if it's some unfortunate accident that took him too soon. Some may even feel that he lived far too long.

I don't feel sad that he died and I don't feel any guilt for not feeling sad. He did nothing with his fame but stifle the growth of our culture and society, so fuck him. I'm glad he's finally dead.

eh.. big deal.

He just gave me an actual excuse to get drunk

i dont really care about this either way.

The sad part is, someone is going to take his place.

He's about to find out if he's as right as he thought he was.

We all die in the end....but some of us will make this world a better, and less hellish place when we do.

One is left to wonder if even the Christians, will miss this man.

actually, hte sad part is, there will be 2 to take his place..his sons. He left instructions for them to take over his ministry...i kidna feel bad for his daughter..i think she was left out...

imagine the convo, "Yes, dear, daddy loves you, but you're a girl and, as such, you're not fit to carry on God's work"

and yes, i think he said it like that.

like him or hate him, he was big enough to make at least 13 people write about him....

i don't think his sons will have enough "oomph" to carry on his work, i think his ministry will die a slow, quiet death...

who knows, falwell's father and grandfather were militant athiests, he rebelled, perhaps his sons will rebel and start spreading the word of pastafarianism....

Being the skeptic that I am, isn't it a bit odd that one of Godwin's first statements was :

It's almost as if he's trying to say he's not guilty before even being accused of not being timely in his efforts to revive Falwell. Although, it's unclear who found him... or did I miss that somewhere? :rolleyes:

I'd feel better if someone cut his head off and burned the body just to be sure.

I don't about that... The apple can fall close to the tree and still make a little bit of difference...


Check out Jay Bakker's church... Revolution Church

that's funny bc i thought the exact same thing when i read that....some pro-active defense going on there.

Larry Flynt is smoking a cigar right now in his honor.

One ignorant, vile, idiotic blowhard down, one billion to go...
I feel like his influence has waned somewhat, so maybe my enthusiasm at his removal from this Earth is tempered.

we need a snoopy dance emoticon.

...and I thought I despised him...

If I could wish there was a hell I'd wish he'd burn there.

"HALLEFUCKINLUJAH"!

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Well said, and well deserved.

Well said, I agree. So who's the nextblow hard to take his place? And his sons better not even bother to try....

Think I'll go masturbate to some nice dirty XXX porn in his honor.

The only sorrow I feel is I'm sorry he couldn't have went to meet his maker in the late 70s or early 80s.

Try as I might, I can't get the acronym RIP to spell "good riddance you hateful old man".

Couldn't have said it better myself. I guess in some ways I appreciate that a thread titled "Jerry falwell, RIP" is a little more appropriate than what I would've posted which would've been something along the lines of "Ding dong the bigot is dead" but I can't really find it in my heart to regret that he's gone to whatever fate awaits someone like him or to wish him any peace when he gets there.

And if feeling that way about him makes me just as bad as he is, I can live with that.

talk about missing the whole point.

If anyone in this world would have a legitimate beef with falwell, it would be larry flynt, and to hear flynt talk about him...after the trial, despite what they didn't like about each other, they became very good friends and would visit each other often.

that alone should say enough about falwell and his ability to overcome some prejudices.

rip and may god have mercy on your soul.

Okay, well I'm going to sound stupid, but I don't know who the man is?! From what I gather he's one of those thou art superior by closeness to God, now give me your money type guys? I do believe I have read he was quite homophobic? I don't know if my being Canadian is an excuse not to know who he is, but if he's a hate-monger in disguise then the world will be better without him.

I guess this being the interweb and all, it is fashionable to say things like 'ding, dong the wicked witch is dead'. But really, what did this man do to you? Say a few things you didn't agree with? So what? I personally respect anyone that can make you think critically about yourself and your own beliefs. There are plenty of a**holes out there who say stupid stuff everyday. Do you honestly wish they were dead?

Most of you have only been around and contemplating such things for a short time, but I was around when the 'Moral Majority' came into being. Wow, what an interesting idea. I had never even thought of such a concept. Was I part of the moral majority or not? We had great fun in college assuring everyone we were part of the immoral majority :) .

According to political scientists, Falwell was instrumental in getting Ronald Reagan elected. He tried to make people make a decision. What is wrong with that? If you didn't agree with him, he prayed for you and wished you would see it his way. He didn't kill anybody. He didn't physically force anyone to believe in him. He was passionate, I think that is an admirable trait in anyone.

He felt passionately that the country at that time was suffering from, for lack of a better term, a lack of backbone. Jimmy Carter was a nice guy and all but we were being looked down on and taken advantage of in the world. Falwell felt that Reagan would govern in a way that more closely represented the ideals that this country was founded on and tried to convince people of that.

Now, all that being said, they guy sure did speak his mind as he got older. The things he said after 9/11 were uncalled for. I think he certainly realized that when he very quickly apologized for what he said. I can make the argument that his views on gays and lesbians are what brought the discussion to the fore and actually provoked the discussion re: equal rights. It mobilized the gay and lesbian community to action and forced them 'out of the closet' sooner and IMO allowed their cause to be furthered faster.

He was a husband, a father, and a grandfather. Honest, hardworking, and (right or wrong) passionate about what he believed in. Not much more you can ask for in a man. Rest in Peace Jerry Falwell and may God have mercy on your soul

I disagree. I think he stirred the pot, and society and culture cannot stagnate as long as the pot stays stirred.

He certainly stirred me up when I was in college and was the source of extreme anger and frustration on my part for many of his Moral Majority headlines. And for that I thank him as humbly and respectfully as I know how.

Emphasis added.

Nothing and I don't.

But...there is a VERY big difference between wishing someone dead and thinking that the world is a better place without them in it. I don't wish anyone dead, but there are a lot of people whose opinions and thoughts I'd just as well rather not hear and not have influence on things that affect MY life, country and choices.

I don't advocate killing these people, because then we end up on that happy path to "Well who decides who gets to talk and who gets to die" which is silliness. But I'm not going to mourn the passing of and wish well someone who I feel negatively impacted the world I have to live in. I didn't like him yesterday when he wasn't dead. I don't feel any compulsion to suddenly forgive him for what I think are his wrongs simply because he's dead now.

The fact that you can, I suppose, makes you a "better" person than me, but being a "good" person isn't really something I care a great deal about. I'd rather be in a world filled with average people who don't feel like they have to impose their belief systems on everyone else than in a world of "great" people who do.

I say live and let live. He said everyone should do it my way. That's just enough for me to extend my middle finger in his direction and not much else. Unless these posts count, but I guess they're just written middle fingers anyway.

In the words of Bad Religion:

"Hey brother christian with your high and mighty errand,
Your actions speak so loud, I cant hear a word youre saying."

It's not just because this is the interent that people say they are glad that he died. Ask me in person and I'll tell you the same thing: Fuck Jerry Falwell. I hope he likes hell.

Fat sweaty fuck.

heh you beat me to it, mine would have had a couple more profanities though.

but good enough for me.

To quote Bill Walton, "When everybody thinks the same, nobody thinks."
So I'm sitting here trying to think, but every time I do, I come to the conclusion that Jerry Falwell emanated more bad than good. When I think of him as a family man and a leader, I also think of him as someone who tried to convince others to be bad people.

pretty darn harmless compared to some other fundamentalist leaders around the world.
for some reason many of us do not compare such things. instead we prefer to overreact in typical ways that indicate our tendency to dwell on what we see as the bad points of things American. And since it is severely fashionable to be anti-American, especially for progressive thinkers, this is another example of groupthink.

very true compared to other fundamentalists he was quite tame.

I was quite interested to read this today from Larry Flint.

May God have mercy on his soul.

Oh shit, that's what Hustler v. Falwell was about??

Ahahahahaha.... that is hilarious.

carno, go rent The People vs. Larry Flynt. Great movie.

edit: misspelled some shizzle

I hope you enjoy the burning sensation, Falwell.

One less idiot asshole makes this planet a little bit better.

You know....I've never had much use for Larry Flynt, I well remember the day he was shot as my mother and I were in "town" that day for a Dr's appt(I grew up in Lawrenceville), but I have to give him kudos for his statment

The man made his own hateful legacy. He can be buried in it.

I only hope some good can come from his passing. Perhaps his $200 million/year scam disguised as a church will finally lose its undue political influence.

How does thinking this guy is a hateful asshole equate with being anti-American groupthink?

I'm not sure which ever pissed me off more about the filthy bastard- the fact that he spat hate with every single breath his lungs could muster, or that he did it trying to claim it was God's Will.

Welcome to hell, asshole.

i was also wondering about the same matter that jj asked about above.
it makes no sense to me.

The world is a better place because of him... being dead. :)

I think if this were a compare and contrast thread you might have a point.

Do you think anyone in here will have kinder words for bin laden or sadr when they die? Do you really think falwell is america in the sense that those who you would deem "fashionably anti-american" see him as some sort of representation of american ideals instead of a representation of the perversion of religious ideals?

I guess i'm wondering if your commentary was specifically directed at this thread or not.

I'm still waiting for the quotes from Tinky Winky (the allegedly gay Teletubby).

tinky winky's quote:

TinkY WinkY TIIIINKY..wIIINNNNKKYYYYY


i think it translates to "rot in heck, you piece of poo"

teletubby cursing doesn't translate well.

hating is unjustifiable.

refusing to draw reasonable comparisons to a thing that is being described in an absolute way is unjustifiable.

I'm indicating he represents an American version of a religious fundamentalist leader and that any reasonable comparison with others of that category - worldwide - reveals him as quite harmless.


An overview of current reaction to his death makes it clear that there is a line of demarcation drawn by progressive thinkers, which may be described as groupthink.

If you are not willing to mention that certain political/emotional/intellectual positions are anti-American, that is your business. I wouldn't argue with you about this personally. I may, however continue to identify an anti-American bias in particular points of view. That is simply my opinion.

If that is your justification to what constitutes being anti-American, I expect you to acknowledge that Falwell sets the standard for anti-American bias.

The man hates the majority of this nation's citizens. This constitutes anyone not 'born-again'.
Then also, specifically: Homosexuals, liberals, civil rights activists, feminists, anyone who enjoys sexual commercial material, abortion supporters, the ACLU, scientists...
He spent a great deal of his life trying to repress african-americans, including calling Martin Luther King Jr. a political opportunist and phony.

Considering how... according to your definition at least, anti-american he was, perhaps it is VERY American to denounce this man and his legacy?

____
Also, regarding him being harmless compared to his counterparts in the muslim world. It's all a matter of power. Falwell always had it. He had the ear of 3 of the last 4 presidents of this country. He regularly held meetings with them and other prominent politicians in high office. Falwell never NEEDED to get violent. He had the 10th largest economy in the world (US Military) to be violent on his behalf.

Terrorism is the resort of the weak and powerless. Put Falwell and his religion in a mud shack among by the world's poorest, and put Osama as ally to the most powerful man and military in the world where Islamic culture dominates the world, and you would have seen a reversal of method.

It's all a matter of who has the power.

Superbelt, between us I think we have laid out some very clear territory.
I appreciate your well-formed response.
I have no further response of my own.

Remember, I do not think differences of opinion are amenable to alteration by the processes of debate, argumentation, or other so-called rational means.

I see humans as emotional creatures...

Wait no more:

""Oh dear, it's easy to say the wrong thing here," he said. "Tinky Winky sad whenever someone dies, but ..." He left it hanging there."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature...tml?source=rss

i don't understand the relation of american / anti-american and groupthink. wouldn't any relation to a statement or series of statements be inherent linked to groupthink one way or the other? if the concern is some sort collectively decided upon reaction to all situations as being in step with, or directly contrary to a notion of nationalism and identifican as 'american,' then.... i don't get the criticism.

i'm leaving the discussion of logic and debate and opinions for another thread. that could be a serious threadjack, i think :)

like i said originally. I'm NEVER happy when someone dies, honestly. It's a life and i've always believed that life is precious.

for falwell, my only conflicting sense was that value of life coupled with my disgust for the man. He was American, I am American, most of the 'anti Americans' people label are indeed American. I don't like what my country does sometimes, i don't like what people in my country do sometimes, but we are all here, all Americans. I just think we can do a better job. Falwell, on the other hand, had the power to bring people together, and he did, but only those people who agreed with his stance and viewpoints.

He could have been a MUCH better American if he'd simply kept his hate filled rhetoric out of the airwaves. I admit that he made me take an interest in things he was against, so maybe he did unite groups of people, but he united them against other groups of people who should not be fighting. In a time when Americans were distraught over the massive loss of life, does he call people together in love or to pray for families lost, or to just unite for the common good...No, he calls people together to lay blame at a group of Americans' feet. He did apologize for it, but i assure you, that apology did not get the airtime that the original speech did. He offended groups of Americans in a time when we needed a healing voice.

What's sad is that he COULD have been one of the most uniting figures in the 20th century, but he just couldn't get over his hatred of his fellow humans..

it's disgusting, immoral and unchristian.

and that's why i'm conflicted about his death.

Being thankful that this asshole is dead is anti-american?

No one is asking for anything to be debated- we're wondering how you made the leap in logic that lead you to believe that it's anti-american to hate that prick. His life of hateful rhetoric is hardly "american" in any way, so in what way are we being anti-american?

Call it groupthink if you want, I could care less... but what crazy leap of logic makes it anti-american to hate on him?

To me at least, Falwell was more a symbol of what is wrong with America than someone worth hating. I see my dislike for what he stood for as a manifestation of my love of this country rather than something Anti-American (whatever that actually means), and I would hope most Christians are relieved that his message has been silenced.

So then why did you bother to post? Was it just to lash out at some phantom anti-american groupthinking that wasn't really actually occuring?

Your participation can basically be summed up thusly: "All the haters are trendy sheep, but i don't want to talk about it." That's kind've lame if you ask me, though it does provide some insight into the basis for your belief that differences of opinion aren't amenable to alteration by the processes of debate, argumentation, or other so-called rational means. You certainly seem unwilling to participate in processes of debate, argumentation, or other so-called rational means, at least as far as this thread goes and if you don't participate using such means how could they possibly affect a change of opinion?

I thought all of Art's posts in this thread were extremely clear.

However, it seems that some people are reading aspects into them that just aren't there.

Part of the issue is that not everyone makes a goal of changing the way other people think. Some are more interested in sharing their thoughts and considering the thoughts of others.

After all, and this is just a way of restating something Art said, how often do you actually see people changing their mind based on "debate, argumentation, or other so-called rational means"?

Actually, i change my mind a lot in the context of debates, arguments and rational discussions. Perhaps not right away, but sometimes eventually. Often i am wrong and talking with other people who may happen to have a different perspective helps me evaluate my opinions and beliefs. It happens all of the time. There are certain things about the nature of the people involved in the discussion that might serve to limit the discussion's productivity, but really, i don't think it's all that rare outside of the politics board.

I think that the fact that a person believes that people don't change their minds via discussion speaks more about the nature of that person's ability to deal open mindedly with others than the abilities of humanity to adapt to new information presented in the context of discussion.

I thought all of ART's posts were crystal clear and reflected the same thing I said in my post in this thread. I debated this man's followers daily at one point, and they ALWAYS challenged me and made me think of things differently. What more could you hope for in a lively discussion? Yet I certainly never hated the man, nor wished his head chopped off, body burned, and "soul" sent to hell no matter how frustrated I got.

Ironic to read here how Falwell is reviled for trying to force everyone to think like him, but some contributors to this thread both 1) will only tolerate opinions similar to their own, and 2) bristle at the notion of groupthink.

ART is da man.

What are you talking about? Where did anyone say the only tolerable opinion is the one that is like their own?

I don't see this at all. Please point out to me which posts reflect an intolerance of differing opinions. What i see is people asking art for an explanation and him refusing to offer one because he doesn't think talking about his opinions is productive.

That makes two people who can't understand why anyone would question art. Please uber, warrrr, tell me what i've missed, because frankly i don't really see much insight at all. I see more a desire to somehow stick it to the people who don't care for falwell without actually defending falwell. Like somehow we should be thankful for all the things falwell did because, hey, at least he wasn't an islamic fundamentalist. If only we could get over our anti-american groupthinking long enough to see how great falwell actually was compared to other people with whom he shared certain characteristics. That's what i'm getting out of art's posts. Tell me what i'm missing because right now it seems like art is trying really half-assedly diss people for dissing on falwell despite the fact that if falwell had ever completely gotten his way art's way of life would be illegal.

art's posts were clear to the extent that the sentences were correct formally. but logically, they seemed arbitrary.

there are several ways to go about dismantling them, which i think you have to do in order to work out what is going on.
superbelt outlined one route----which i agree with---that addresses the contents of art's post itself.

there is a curious second level of problems, which would in the end simply bend art's statement back onto his own position: it is conventional wisdom---or was once--amongst a segment of conservativeland that there was some phantom called "PC" abroad in the land, the face of which was a kind of "anti-americanism" and basis of which was little more than fashion.

this relied entirely on a fantasy construct built around the notion "PC" never comes up--not here, not there--it doesn't matter that there is no referent--it is a nice little conservative meme the sole functions of which are (a) to set out a Them against which and Us can constitute itself and from there (b) it provides an opportunity for conflating a reversion to conservative political positions with an act of Heroic Individualism. it doesn't matter that the positions being adopted via this act of Heroic Individualism are the same as those inculcated through the pseudo-history encountered in primary and secondary school and little more than that--that is not the point--the point is to valorize the Action of Standing Up (to a Phantom). it's easy peasy and if anything is a pure example of exactly what art claims it stands against--except that this particular ideological proposition address "individuals" and so on that basis it is possible to imagine that it stands over against "groupthink"--but its basis is just a logical inversion of how this Phantom PC was defined.

i dont have a particular stake in this thread: for myself, i found no particular linkage between falwell's politics and the fact of his death welling up inside me--i felt no sense of either hostility or its inverse coming together around it. i found the relation of his politics to his religious committments to be problematic, but they never surprised me given the position he came from. he invented nothing, was responsible for nothing insofar as that variant of protestant fundamentalism is concerned. he was an adequate spokesmodel for a politics i found and find repellent---but that did not lead me to find anything to gloat about in the fact that he died. they are separate from each other: what falwell accomplished as a public figure, as a signifier i oppose--but as a human being, i assume that he had a family, that he loved and was loved and as such no doubt his death effects a community---and as i did not know him, i had nothing to say about it.

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals."
&
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals"

"The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country."

"It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening."


RIP ODB.

Filtherton, roachboy:

I'm kind of wary about this discussion. My thinking that Art's posts were clear doesn't mean that his thoughts are mine, or that I am empowered to speak on his behalf. I can, however, tell you how I interpreted his words.

In fact, Art's thoughts on the matter seem so clear that I'm having a hard time saying how I took them without simply restating them.

I read Art's posts as an observation that it is a curious thing that so many people in this thread are expressing such vigorous hatred for Jerry Falwell, or such obvious glee that he has died, given that among Fundamentalist leaders in general (globally) he was not close to being an extreme personage.

One interpretation of why this feeling and expression is centered on Falwell is that it is easier or more fashionable in some circles to criticize American personalities and institutions.

Whether or not these things are the case, this was the message that I understood quite clearly and consistently from Art's posts. It is also quite consistent with his views on a number of other topics.

_________________________________

Regarding the bit about not wanting to engage in debate, I do identify quite strongly with Art's position. While I often learn a lot from the discussion and presentation of ideas here, it seems that the more heated the debate is, the less productive the conversation is. That's why I try to focus my posts on asking questions or challenging others to clarify their views rather than beat them over the head with mine. I'm not always successful in this, but I do make the effort. I'm certainly in no position to argue with or comment on your experience Filtherton, other than to say that it doesn't really match my own.

uber, what i find interesting is the equivalence of 'groupthink' to 'anti-americanism.' frankly, that doesn't necessarily tie directly to art, although i do find it an interesting statement simply given his interests in media and marketing of ideas through culture. i think that might be an interesting thread topic all by itself, although it would depend on how it was positioned. does anti-american groupthink have any fundamental differences to american groupthink? can any reaction along these lines not fall into 'groupthink?'

before i burn in hell, let me explain that i'm not happy someone died, by any means, but i wasn't happy when saddam was hanged, either....

and no, i'm not comparing the two, i'm just saying, i'm never happy when someone dies.

..

Not a big Falwell fan myself, but America's telefundies make some others' fundies look like Gandhi.

Moral relativism and what constitutes a "good" American aside, Falwell's harm went far beyond his verbal bashing of one group or another. Christopher Hitchens addresses the issues he has with Falwell and his ilk on CNN.


Link

I was about to mention Hitchens

jeebus, is his death dead yet?

Witchcraftish though this is, it's the end of his story.:thumbsup:

Hitchens is good...I agree with a lot of the things he says about all forms of fundamentalism, especially islamic fundamentalism.

Fairly classless on the part of Hitchens. I'm disappointed, because I really liked that Sharpton/Hitchens debate that loquitur posted in another thread. Yeah, I get it, Falwell wasn't a good person. The trash talk still doesn't impress me.

Christopher is gloating, but I can understand it. Falwell was a horrible divisive human being who really came into power because of his efforts to keep darkie down. I do agree he was a huckster.

So, how about this analysis of his life instead?
It attempts to show the evolution of Falwell from a beginning as a segregationist who created the Moral Majority and delved into sexuality issues and abortion only after, and as a direct response to, the Federal Government having started removing tax exempt status from private universities like his and Bob Jones because of their continued segregationist activities.
linky dinky

I never understood the idea of "class" ... since when was one under duty to respect another person for simply having lived and died. The man was bad and deserves no kind words.

Yikes! Did Sadaam get this bad of a send off on TPF when he was hanged?

You'd think Falwell himself killed thousands of people and deprived a whole nation of their democratic rights as human beings....

Listen, as a Christian, I never agreed with JF and his moral majority. It reeked of pharisee-ism and so not what I believe Christ would have done. His group focussed on politics instead of humanity, and caring for the poor, which is what I believe Jesus would do.

But to infer that he is basically like Osama bin Laden in his fundamentalism?

:eek:

You see, that is just the point. It can be argued that he was just as bad a bin Laden.

He was a vile charlatan who not only conned people out of their money but influenced people in power, either directly or through influencing his followers, to do heinous things.

There is one key difference between Falwell (and his type) and bin Laden. The laws of the US prevented him from going "to far". Put him in a lawless culture and he would have been just as likely to do far worse than he did.

Charlatan - "Just as bad as bin Laden"? WTF?

Never heard it said that JF sent 19 followers to hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings, killing 3000.

You say he "conned people out of money" - where's your evidence of that? Many Christians who cannot go to church themselves (due to illness or inability to physically go) watched him on TV and received spiritual guidance from him. So they sent a "tithe" to his ministry, because scripture asks of us to give to the work of the Lord, out of our abundance.

Yes, yes, yes, there are those who cheat the poor in the name of God by asking them to send their dollars to support "God's work". I know this, and I, personally, abhor those who use "ministry" as an open tap for funds.

And the whole "inspire those in power to do heinous things" - you are, if I might respectfully suggest, projecting a political power upon him that, in recent years, I do not believe he had.

Yes, his statements about AIDS was appalling. His statements about Muslims also, appalling. Yet he never raised an army himself to go out and physically fight anyone. Picket at abortion clinics, yes. (do not personally agree with that) But he never ever (that I know of) told any anti-abortion followers to pick up a gun and shoot anyone, like that idiot who is in the news nowadays (can't remember his name).

Yeeesh, comparing JF to bin Laden.....

:shakehead:

Intense1, I recommend for you the movie "Marjoe"

Netflix summary:
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe

Hal - no self-respecting Christian nowadays has any good feelings toward Marjoe. He was a money-grubbing fraud. A term that I might (if I weren't trying to be charitable) confer upon many televangelists nowadays.

If I see someone asking for money in the name of God on TV nowadays, I immediately question their motives. Ministry - that is true ministry of God - gets funded somehow, and often it is by miraculous means. I myself have been the recipient of such miracles when I was in ministry, and I never went on tv to ask for it.

Sometimes ministry is funded by folks going out and actually getting a paying job. I love these ministries, since it takes money motives out of the equation.

As for pastors whose sermons are telecast - if they don't have half sermon, half asking for money, then I'm ok with them. It does take mega bucks to have a telecast, and it is totally reasonable (spiritually) to ask that those who are consistently ministered to by that broadcast ministry to donate to it.

Like TFP. (BTW - wish I had a grand or two to slip you, Hal. I've enjoyed TFP and once I get an actual paying job - instead of just caring for my mom - then you'll get some of it. :thumbsup: )

My point in recommending it to you was that the only difference between Marjoe and Falwell is that Marjoe admitted to being a fraud. He still did all the same things.

Hal - he "did all the same things". Like what?

A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist.

There is no equivocation on this.

Charlatan - but there's fundamentalists (Billy Graham) and fundamentalists (Osama bin Laden).

Never saw Billy call forth an army of hate.

I believe, if I might suggest, you are confusing "fundamentalist" with "radical".

And just because someone is a "radical" Christian, it does not make them dangerous to others. Unless these "others" are afraid of the Christian message.

This is a man who said 9/11 was god's punishment, that AIDs is not just god's punishment of homosexuals but of those that would tolerate homosexuality.

This is a man that supports the worst elements of Israel in belief that he can bring about the rapture and Armageddon.

(note to self - rediscover how to do the whole quote thingy)

Charlatan, he may have said those things, and if he did (I know about the AIDS/homosexual thing, and can imagine the whole Israel/Armageddon thing) then I can only say, as a CHRISTIAN, that I disagree with him. I know several other Christians who also disagree with him. Some are on TV.

But he never EVER called forth an army to rise up and kill either AIDS victims, Homosexuals or those opposed to Israel (as far as I know). The Israel thing is a biblical belief that many Baptists hold (and Charismatics as well) that says "ISRAEL IS BLESSED OF GOD", so don't do anything against them.

It's very complicated to go into - requires quotes and such - but just because he believed in this does not make him a killer.

Now Osama, there's a killer for ya.

The above is like saying child sodomy, cannibalism and incest are the norm absent any so-called laws. Same goes for just about every human "deviance" or extreme one might come up with. That "one key difference" you mention makes all the difference. The fact of the matter is America *is* a lawful society, and there *is* separation between church and state, so religious extremists like Falwell are a sideshow, not the the law of the land. It is the height of nonsense - and par for certain lefties - to compare Jerry Falwell (as asinine as he was) to religious totalitarian maniacs running whole countries, stoning their citizens to death, keeping their women in burlap sacks, killing all the homos and political dissidents, threatening the existence of other countries, and developing nuclear weapons that they can then siphon off to their terrorist buddies. Etc. etc. etc.

All the same things like ... oh... preaching. Accepting money. Promising miracles. Etc.

I'm of the "belief" that all religion is manufactured and is quite a nice ploy by the more clever of us to get power and money. I also believe that the restrictions it places upon us make us even worse people because of the self-hate we produce when we disobey them.

I didn't actually offer any kind words. But I don't see a point in the ruthlessly unkind words. They reveal just as much about Falwell as more civil appraisals and they betray an undignified hatred on the part of the speaker.

The man's dead. His work - the good and the bad and the bad - is at an end. He can't hear you. Your vitriolic attacks can only be felt by his surviving loved ones. He's irrelevant, as now are the attacks against them. Save them for the living, breathing, actually presently harmful evangelists out there. Otherwise, they just come off as petty graspings for the last word.

Yeah, I know, Falwell did the same thing, yeah, I know, it's only fitting.

Forgive me if I don't look to Falwell for a moral benchmark.

Killing is just a means to an end.

It is just another form of political influence. If they could get away with it, I don't doubt for a second that Christan fundamentalists would kill for their cause.

From my point of view, all religion is false and negative. People like bin Laden and Falwell well know this and use it to their advantage.

The Fundamentalism they spout is lever of convenience. It is a system to be used to influence others to your way of thinking.

However, whether true to their convictions or a gospel spouting charlatan, a Fundamentalist is an absolutist and as such has taken the position that you are either with me or against me. There is no shade of grey.

Anything that absolutist can only lead to conflict with opposing points of view. How far that conflict can go is only tempered by the political state in which the Fundamentalist plies their trade.

Hal - Never saw JF promising miracles. As a matter of fact, as a Southern Baptist, I'd reckon JF didn't talk about modern day miracles so much, as they tend to stay away from them. Too close to "spiritual gifts" for them.

(Note to Hal - not myself as a SoBap, JF was, although I grew up as one)

As for receiving money for preaching - that is scripturally based, as "the workman is worthy of his hire", said the Apostle Paul. Can't remember the reference, but it was about those who ministered to the early church but didn't ask for support in their work, therefore going hungry. This finds its background in the OT's law of "bringing tithe into the storehouse so that there is enough".

As for religion being "manufactured" - religion has been around as long as man has been here. It's institutional religion that has caused true spirituality to be held in disrepute. The church has been its own worst enemy, as when there are human beings running an organization, there is bound to be crap.

I hate to bring out an old logic debate killer, but when I am so disheartened by the "send money to the Lord" shows on TV, I think of Mother Theresa. Here was a woman who went to India and served dying lepers, and loved them. She started a convent of nuns who still to this day serve the poorest of the poor in Calcutta (as well as all over India). And man, when you think of poor, go one further, and you'll have some idea of what it means to be poor in Calcutta.

She wrote that when she sees their disease ridden bodies, she sees the face of Jesus.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.

Yes, but don't you (figuratively) make a distinction between religious fundamentalism within the context of a secular, democratic society, and religious fundamentalism within the context of a religious theocracy? People can think whatever they want, hold any extreme viewpoint they want, but at the end of the day...the political structures of the 2 societies are radically different. In the first, the radical holds relatively little power, in the other it is all-powerful.

Charlatan I am amazed, with all you say about religion, about how little you know about Christianity.

Powerclown - yes, when Billy Graham says something like "God will smite the wicked" (not that he would, just an example), folks just listen and either agree or disagree.

When OBL says it, 19 young men highjack planes and kill thousands of infidels.

There is a difference. Indeed.

Bingo.

Then there the Pat Robertsons who pressure the President and congressmen and make public statements about overthrowing a sovereign nation that he doesn't like. That goes for both the current, like Iraq. And the future, like Venezuela. Also there is the Liberian thing where Robertson was running gold and diamond mines out of that country. When things started to go bad, he repeatedly used his influence to get, or at least try to get, the State Department and the President to back off of the Dictator of that nation, Charles Taylor.

People like Bin Laden do not have this kind of power to spread their influence.

Like I said, Robertson and Falwell never needed to command followers to blow themselves up. They were able to directly influence international and domestic policy in this nation. No fundamentalist clerics are in as good a position to spread their agenda than our own radical mullah's.