Christian fundamentalists do kill for their cause. Just not as announced in the US. This book I'm readying cites a few Christian fundamentalists who partake in realtively modern genocide in other parts of the world.

Presidents throughout our history have received counsel from clergy, Superbelt. It doesn't mean that the clergy are the motivating forces of the policies the Pres pursues. Clinton called upon Billy Graham, Tony Campolo and his own pastor when making decisions.

Do you have evidence that presidents have been catapulted into military action on the word of a minister?

Oh Hal, please oh please give me evidence of how true Christians (not in Ireland, as "Christian/Catholic" is just an excuse) have killed. Also, no using the "Army of God" in Africa, either. I mean true Christians who kill en masse.

What book, Hal?

Yeah, clergy have given counsel to presidents before. For the fundamentalist, powermad ones like we have right now, that is their power outlet.

Can you argue that under Reagan, Bush and Shrub... That they have not found highly sympathetic ears to push their agenda?
They share similar goals and get to see what they want actually happen.

If they did not have that outlet, if they felt their were persecuted by a superpower and an alien religious culture was impressing itself upon their countrymen... Can you really say they wouldn't have taken a similar tact?

I believe they would have.
Same story, different characters.

But Superbelt, you are making a big assumption here. Plus you are showing a political bias in a place where we are talking about a dead minister.

I can also argue how JFK found fans in secular/moral relative folk. And how when Bill Clinton was in office, many people felt that sex in the oval office shouldn't be brought up.

If you have evidence that Jerry Falwell moved the current president to do things, or if you have evidence that he moved any previous presidents to do things. please share. I need enlightening.

Regardless of what the left wants to believe, the right has a powerful voting block in the whole fundamental christian group. It is a valid voting block, and it cannot be denied its power politically.

I think some of us are sort of insulted by religion. That is why we don't enjoy someone so radical making a grasp for power. We believe, not only that religious values that we don't sympathize with will be imposed on us, but that a society of people who believe they are destined for better things (and thus look down upon the other-believers) will have power and will corrupt what we have spent over 2 centuries building. And there is no argument against the notion that a country under religious rule will cause misery to those who are not of that religion. There simply cannot be from any sane person an argument.

I'm going to a party tomorrow night.

He was wrong and yet profitted from it.

What does that say about us?

It is only us here, even the idiots who bought his prejudices.

Intense1: think about sex in the oval office...

Yee-hah - I remembered at least how to use the quote button. Maybe next I'll figure out how to cut out various bits I want to quote and be able to do the whole [quote/=] thing.

Hal, I understand how folks can be insulted by religion. I myself hate - absolutely despise - any system that demands absolute religious obedience to a dogma. I cannot for the life of me find that in the New Testament of scripture. As for those who "believe they are destined for better things (and thus look down upon the other-believers)" - I'm sorry that this is your experience with Christians. No Christian believer should ever give the impression that they are "looking down" upon those who do not believe what they believe.

I spent the last 20 or so years of my life amongst Buddhists, and I sure wouldn't have made many friends if I gave the impression that I was better than they were because "I have heaven waiting for me".

The nature of religious belief is that one has found what one's heart is looking for, therefore, one wants to share it with others. I shared my heart with many - some believed, some didn't. It made no difference either way.

And as for what we have spent two centuries building here in the US - yeesh, Hal, check out the founding documents.... there's God all over 'em.

Hee hee, crazymodern, I'd rather not think about sex in the Oval Office, if you don't mind. It was bad enough under Clinton and his lollypop intern, much less now! :paranoid:

I meant historically.

Jerry Falwell was a big, fatty flash-in-the-pan, was he not?

Why have we digressed towards president's sex lives?

There was a whole discussion about influence over the pres by ministers, and then it was mentioned that..... and then.... whew. I don't know.

Man, I'm tired.

considering he and robertson prayed for another 'opening' in the supreme court so bush could appoint a more conservative judge...yeah, that's just a bit over the line for me. it's even sadder that many agree with him.

I tend to rely on the amendments on the constitution. The bill of rights specifically. I also acknowledge that this country was born in the 1700's, whereas atheism only grows as time and knowledge progresses. What I mean to say is... the more secular knowledge we are presented with, the less we need god in the equation to explain things. So it's understandable that the nations of yesteryear, and even those born a couple hundred years ago are so reliant on "god" but the more we learn about the world around us (and this century is filled with these "revelations" of knowledge) the less we depend on the explanation of divinity.

Yes Hal, we don't need to see "God" in our political papers, but the foundation of our country had God in it. Which means our legal system was founded with the 10 commandments in mind. That's why they're in so many court rooms.

As our country moves toward secularism, there are many who are happy, but many who are not. Both sides have their own arguments - it is incumbent upon us as Americans to dive into this debate and suss it out. Or rather, vote it out.

You may believe that religion isn't valid; that's a "valid" position to hold. However, there are many others who believe it is relevant, and their position is also valid. If you want others to respect your position, you must also agree to accept there is an opposite opinion.

For Paq - There is no difference in Falwell and Robertson wanting their "pick" for the supreme court (and therefore praying for it) and the NOW and ACLU wanting their pick for the supreme court (and maybe wishing for it?). Both groups want their pick on the court, and have their right to pray for it/or wish for it.

Oh, BTW - I was totally appalled by Pat Robertson's call for Hugo Chavez to be assassinated! That is something a religious leader should not ever do, call for the death of another world leader, in today's age, or in any other age. Scripture says that this is in the hands of God. For Pat Robertson to call for an assassination is pure crap.

But this is what fundamentalists do. They espouse one thing and then do another. Say they want peace and then they call for head to roll.

The issue isn't whether or not someone is going to carry out their wishes. The issues is that this sort of hypocrisy is somehow excusable because the person who said is a "man of god".

It's pure bullshit that someone like Robertson still has followers after he says something like that.

Hence, fundamentalists are fundamentalists.

Never one to ignore while neglected atrocities slip away under the radar...ever hear of Sabra and Shatila?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2255902.stm

...this goes a little more in depth...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

And here is the underlying reason people kill each other....

Please tell us all what constitutes a "True Christian", so we can decide who is not, and hate them.

Falwell had a criteria for Christianity, likely quite different from your own, and it wasnt pretty. Why was his wrong.....and yours right?

The Sad, Quotable Jerry Falwell
It's bad form to speak ill of the dead. Good thing this man's own vile words speak for themselves

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist

Friday, May 18, 2007



You can eulogize. You can mourn and ponder and do a lengthy retrospective, a political analysis, a sociocultural examination of a career and a legacy and a rather remarkable life. When remembering the dead, the journalistic options are legion.

But in the case of the late Rev. Jerry Falwell, the grandfather of the fundamentalist religious right and the foremost champion of the creation of a brutally homophobic, mysogynistic Christian theocracy in America, perhaps it's better to let the man's most insidiously famous quotes speak for themselves, and let time and karma be the judge of whether Falwell left the world a better place than when he found it. (All citations are available at wikiquote.org and elsewhere.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for [the attacks of Sept. 11] because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."

"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals -- most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men -- that's their problem."

"When you have a godly husband, a godly wife, children who respect their parents and who are loved by their parents, who provide for those children their physical and spiritual and material needs, lovingly, you have the ideal unit."

"The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews."

"I am saying pornography hurts anyone who reads it -- garbage in, garbage out."

"I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush."

"I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time."

"It is God's planet -- and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point."

"I truly cannot imagine men with men, women with women, doing what they were not physically created to do, without abnormal stress and misbehavior."

"It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening."

"There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas."

"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!"

"The First Amendment is not without limits."

"Someone must not be afraid to say, 'moral perversion is wrong.' If we do not act now, homosexuals will 'own' America! If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way ... and our nation will pay a terrible price!"

"If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, [the Antichrist] has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish."

"The argument that making contraceptives available to young people would prevent teen pregnancies is ridiculous. That's like offering a cookbook as a cure to people who are trying to lose weight."

"The whole global warming thing is created to destroy America's free enterprise system and our economic stability."

"You'll be riding along in an automobile. You'll be the driver perhaps. You're a Christian. There'll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds you and the other born-again believers in that automobile will be instantly caught away -- you will disappear, leaving behind only your clothes and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find the car suddenly somewhere crashes. ... Other cars on the highway driven by believers will suddenly be out of control and stark pandemonium will occur on ... every highway in the world where Christians are caught away from the drivers wheel." (from Falwell's pamphlet "Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Christ")

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

"You know when I see somebody burning the flag, I'm a Baptist preacher I'm not a Mennonite, I feel it's my obligation to whip him. In the name of the Lord, of course. I feel it's my obligation to whip him, and if I can't do it then I look up some of my athletes to help me. But, as long as at 72 I can handle most of the jobs I do it myself, and I don't think it's un-spiritual. When I, when I, when I hear somebody talking about our military and ridiculing and saying terrible things about our President, I'm thinking you know just a little bit of that and I believe the Lord would forgive me if I popped him."

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etcetera."

"The National Organization for Women (NOW) is the National Order of Witches."

"God doesn't listen to Jews."

"Tinky Winky is gay."

Let's not nitpick about "true" christians. That would be opening the doorway to an endless argument about the very reason why people kill eachother in the first place; people denying eachother the title of a true believer. If you don't think those killers in africa are true christians, they don't think you are one either - and they'll kill you because of it. Now who is more devout? It can even be argued that jesus himself was not a true christian. The root of the problem is that there are a billion interpretations for the same damn words (that which were constructed hundreds of years AFTER the events they claim to be a first hand account of) and every interpretation claims it is the right one. What a mess for something you don't even need to live a happy life in the first place.

Have you forgotten that only a few centuries ago we struggled to put down a theocracy so we could replace it with our current system. We have a secular, democratic society because those who came before us struggled to bring it about. I don't think for a second that Fundamentalist Christians wouldn't jump at the chance to have a theocracy once more.

In fact, there are members here who seem to suggest that secularism isn't a done deal that we should perhaps rethink it. Personally, that sort of suggestion doesn't sit well with me, nor should it with you I should think.

I am fine if a religious person wants to practice their religion, so long as it doesn't interfere with me. I am not so sure that all religious people can say the same. People such as Falwell show is this sort of thing in action.

If you'll bear with me, I would like to jump back into this thread.

I did want to bring up the comparison between the small amount of damage done by a guy such as Falwell in comparison to the massive damage done by fundamentalists of other faiths. - speaking contemporaneously.

And I do see many responses to his death as largely emotional.

I know the anti-American issue is contentious. I don't want to be contentious.

In any event, as stated, I do not see a reason for argument or debate - ever. I see discussion as simply a stating of viewpoints and some subsequent response. These forums appeal to me as a place where I can encounter the views of others - and occasionally, as a place to state some of my own.

I do not find such things as "facts" in the world.

All I see is viewpoints.

"All I see are viewpoints."

You must have a very rich and fullfilling social life.
Do you prefer the rich tapestry of conversation to be found in talking to a block of wood, for example?

no, for example.

Versus accepting sarcastic and degrading diatribe as conversation?

Seeing something, does not entail a need to engage it. In fact I almost didn't react to your....viewpoint at all, but I simply couldn't resist.

art,

a few things interesting in that perspective:

i don't understand your position on debate, or the way you are speaking with it. i could be incorrect, but the way i read that its as though you're trying to position opinions within personal vacuums, which seems perhaps interesting given your thoughts on the way society shapes the individual..or my reading of them. from my perspective, its almost as though you're taking what i consider argument / debate, and simply rephrasing it as discussion. perhaps i'm missing something. assuming my viewpoint and yours do not coincide, then i would posit that our viewpoints take on elements of meaning because of the contrast between them, and that contrast is naturally a debate, whether implicit or explicit.

as for facts...how much of a technicality are you dealing with? would you take exception with the statement that there are certain things that are so reproducible they become facts in a de facto sense, although if you get into the metaphysically exacting frameworks perhaps it is difficult to call them facts?

/that was quick thinking judy.

/damn you tec: beat me to it. i wasn't sure if wanted to feed el troll or not, but it seemed to be already getting a meal, so why not? at least we can stand up for what the tfp...um...stands for. that came out well.

piglett thanks for your interest in this subject. How about if we take the discussion to a new thread?

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...65#post2250065

I sometimes disagreed with Falwell, but I had no ill will towards him on a personal level. RIP, Jerry.