04-22-2007, 09:36 AM | #41 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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I'm not playing down the seriousness of racism, just the fact that some people are overly sensitive toward terms that have no real perjorative meaning, like oriental. If there is some sort of shame that comes with originating from the east, I could understand the problem. But there is not, so I don't see it as an issue.
I might also add that I have never had any of my oriental friends so much as bat an eye at the word, and most use it in the same context as I do.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-22-2007, 09:38 AM | #42 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Will: I don't. I think it's total hyperbole.
debaser: I think the term's connotation might be somewhat regional. When I lived in NYC, it was almost common knowledge that Oriental was demeaning. Besides, now that you know, why would you want to risk going around offending people and appearing tactless when there are other words that mean the same thing?
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
04-22-2007, 09:43 AM | #43 (permalink) | ||
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04-22-2007, 09:49 AM | #44 (permalink) |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Will, you asked for someone to name one Asian-American politician and 3 movies made in the last 10 years featuring asians w/o martial arts, and one TV show with a main character who is asian.
Within 20 minutes I gave 5 politicians, 3 movies (two more related but not meeting your criteria), 3 TV shows with asian actors playing major recurring parts (not starring, admitted), 1 musician, 1 comedian, 1 newscaster, 4 athletes, and 1 member of the Joint Chiefs. I think your point was made through hyperbole.
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
04-22-2007, 09:55 AM | #45 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: SoCal, beeyotch
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Perhaps it would be better if our society were less anxious to be offended. |
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04-22-2007, 10:10 AM | #49 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-22-2007, 10:11 AM | #50 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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- Anna and the King did feature martial arts - Ang Lee was the FIRST Asian to win an Oscar, which speaks in volumes about my so called hyperbole - Brokeback Mountain didn't feature one Asian actor |
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04-22-2007, 10:40 AM | #51 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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04-22-2007, 12:20 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Will, why did you write this if it didn't mean anything?
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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam |
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04-22-2007, 12:33 PM | #53 (permalink) | ||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Don't forget the Chinaman that peed on The Dudes rug. It really tied the room together.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-22-2007, 12:49 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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04-22-2007, 12:56 PM | #55 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Are you really going to disagree that Asians (or minorities in general) are underrepresented in media and government? |
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04-22-2007, 12:58 PM | #56 (permalink) | |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-22-2007, 01:18 PM | #57 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Lake Mary, FL
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Words are words; They have no power over you unless you let them.
With that being said, I don't see what the big debate is here. If someone wants to call me a nigger, then more power to them. It doesn't affect me in any way, shape or form.
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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. |
04-22-2007, 03:14 PM | #58 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Words have power and racism is alive. As long as those facts remain, racist language will exist and effect people. |
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04-22-2007, 10:34 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: Washington
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Do you know what angers me the most? Americans treat everybody like crap who is a minority, but Americans are also the most traveling of students in the world. What? So they expect to treat people with xenophobia and contempt, but then be welcomed with arms wide open in foreign lands? Sad to say, they actually are welcomed quite hospitably, despite. I'm American, but I'm a minority American, and I have never seen imrovements in society. Instead, the government has paid the media to say that things are better, and paint that picture, and have Martin Luther King Day and other such type observances, so that when someone DOES complain of racism and being treated like crap, people simply accuse them of being arbitrary and "playing the race card," and no action is taken. |
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04-22-2007, 11:00 PM | #60 (permalink) | |
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I tend to become a big caustic gorilla without realizing it, I'm trying not to, so bear with me but I'm really not following you on the importance of representation. Your whole viewpoint seems odd to me. Am I underestimating the prevalence of racism, resultantly underestimating what's requisite to induce proper cultural relevance, and wrong in assuming that most applications of corrective measures are inefficiently addressing the issues for which race is a false front (socioeconomic? Race! etc.) so as to enable greater extraction of votes and ratings? I also imagine that most of what goes on regarding race relations in the media are so superficial as to actually retard the solving of problems as it's all so divisive and angry. I was watching PBS and I saw a little short that appeared intended to show how unreasonable racism is, as it basically outlined the path of cotton from a farm in Africa to the robes of clansmen, but it seemed more divisive and contrived than anything else. Factoring in that I usually get rude responses I figure I'm quite sorely missing the point on a lot. Given that I still can't get a good mental construct of what the opposing view point is and that my introduction to politics was a hardline libertarian radio talk show host when I was 12 some discourse would be downright useful as I'm practically built to scratch my head on these issues and ask, "Are we on different teams?" and then go be inconsistent. |
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04-23-2007, 12:07 AM | #61 (permalink) | |||
Insensative Fuck.
Location: Boon towns of Ohio
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I think that is basically proof that words don't have power unless you allow them. If they really did they would effect people the same way. Racism is alive true, not to the extent people like sharpton and jackson would like you to believe though. The kid was a introvert, basically never spoke unless he was forced to. If he was black they'd have told him to go to africa. If he was white you can tell him go back to the trailer park. Kids are kids, it's too bad they are little fucks, I was one too, I got teased just as much as the next guy, and I teased just as much as the next guy. Anyway, like 5 minutes after this happened I knew there would be threads/news articles/ debates about this. Could video games be at fault? or violent movies? What else can we throw on there? Racism? The kid was fucked up in the head, there were 100s of warning signs that he was not mentally stable. Not all people are born with a good head on their shoulders, and anyone forced into the kind of mental illness this kid had, was not all there in the first place. Quote:
Thats what you get for listening to Bjork ya fuckin occidental
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04-23-2007, 04:48 AM | #62 (permalink) | |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-23-2007, 01:50 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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04-23-2007, 03:28 PM | #64 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: In a State of Denial
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When I was younger I foolishly thought that racism and bigotry would be a thing of the past by the time I grew to manhood. Now it seems that the problem only gets worse, tacking huge strides backwards. Bigotries that I once thought to be a thing of the past, such as antisemitism, are rearing their heads once again.
I have come to believe that bigotry may be in our genes. An individuals dislike of any particular race or nationality isn't, of course. But, foreign ideas or people may bring up feelings of uneasiness in people. In would be a person's culture and upbringing that would shape their interpretations of the feelings; who we see as being a part of our tribe (“us”) and who we see as not being not a part of our tribe (“them”). Just a thought. The oriental/Asian debate is confusing. I rejected the term “Asian” for awhile (I have since come around). I do realize that “Oriental” is old fashioned and verboten because of the historically negative connotations that it holds. But, I rejected changing because : 1) The term Oriental has never had any negative connotation to me, so I really didn't understand that it appeared negative to others. 2) “Asian” is a poor word replacement. Israel is in Asia, but a person of Israeli decent is not referred to as Asian. 3) Replacing a word is too easy and doesn't solve any problems. Removing the negative connotation is the real goal. Replacing the word ignores that goal.
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I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra |
04-23-2007, 03:36 PM | #65 (permalink) | |
Inspired by the mind's eye.
Location: Between the darkness and the light.
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In my travels, I've seen racism far worse outside the US than in the US. In Russia people from the causcus region (Chechnya, Georgia) are referred to as "black people", when I first heard a Russian refer to some people as black, I looked around confused until it was pointed out to me that the so called "black people" are only slightly darker than Russians in skin color and have black hair. If you look like you're from the causcus region or the middle east, you're screwed. Every time you turn around there will be a not so friendly Russian police officer wanting to see your documents, and the police officer is at best only slightly corrupt as he comes up with excuses to why the person's documents aren't up to standards. In Germany, racism has been on the rise (particulary in the former East Germany) and the Turkish immigrants are getting the brunt of it. More and more often, I see graffitti in Germany that says, "Deutschland für die Deutsche!" (Germany for Germans!) If you ask a German how he or she feels about the Turkish immigrants, you will get a very watered down version of the extent of the racist attitude, but that's mainly because the Germans are still very sensitive about sounding racist because of their huge historical racism scar. On the other hand, I've been in Germany hanging out in stores run by Turks and generally found them to be nice people only looking to make a life for themselves and their family that is better than what they had in Turkey. From my experience abroad, I would place the US among the least racist countries. Are we perfect? No, no country is. But are we more sensitive to racial issues than other countries? Absolutely
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Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions. Last edited by mirevolver; 04-23-2007 at 03:50 PM.. |
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04-23-2007, 06:58 PM | #66 (permalink) | ||
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I'm feeling visual tonight.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-23-2007, 07:45 PM | #67 (permalink) | ||
Addict
Location: In a State of Denial
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I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra |
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04-23-2007, 07:59 PM | #68 (permalink) | ||
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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04-24-2007, 06:10 AM | #69 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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I'll step out in front of the bus here:
Why is Euro-centrism and colonialism automaticaly assumed to be a bad thing? It was a phase of our (europeans and decendants) cultural growth. Was Mongol expansionism a bad thing? What about Apache raiding on nieghboring tribes? Surely the domination of the Oyo empire was a travesty, and I think we can all condemn in the strongest possible terms the ecological policies of the Maoi while we are at it.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-24-2007, 06:38 AM | #70 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
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And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
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04-24-2007, 06:52 AM | #71 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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nice debaser:
colonialism was just a phase of euro-development, in the way that the extermination of native americans was a phase in american development, the genocide of the armenians was a phase in the turkish nationalist project and the holocaust was a phase in the unfolding of german-ness----all aspects of shouldering the white man's burden i guess, accepting the unintended consequences of showing backward elements what civilization looks like. and the history of white men who heroically shouldered that burden is made up entirely of folk who had "toughened up" in the face of racist discourse--yup--they sure didnt allow themselves to imagine that their particular forms of racism were in any way problematic and they too could look to just the kind of absurd pseudo-history of domination that you outline in no. 69 and arrive at the same conclusion: we are toughened up and racism is only a problem that affects the weak and unmanly---our forms of colonialism are ok because we are more efficient at domination than were, say, the mongols. see, we care about the environment and all the things it includes, even those backward elements many many many of whom will have to die as a function of the bildungsroman of euro-boys that has been visited upon them. it is obvious that these backward elements only have importance as occaisons for the Long Manly March of european "civilization": why folk who were pressganged into working and often dying for european need for industrial raw materials should have been grateful for the chance they got to participate in a Historical Narrative of Consequence, to be rescued from the Historical Obscurity that they otherwise would have been born into, lived through and died in. "we" did "them" a favor. where is the fucking gratitude? why didnt these backward elements ever seem to understand that they only matter--hell, they only exist---to the extent that they have had the great good fortune to be assimilated into History. where is the gratitude? where is the "thank you for allowing us to matter?" it's always the same: we give and give and give and what do we get? we give them jesus, we give them jobs in those nice mines, in those nice rubber plantations, in those nice colonial export-oriented agricultural formations we were beneficient enough to develop and bestow upon them...and are they grateful? hell no: backward elements continue to confuse colonialism with a form of domination. what is to be done? maybe kutz was right: exterminate the brutes.
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04-24-2007, 09:44 AM | #73 (permalink) | ||||||||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Yawn. Quote:
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-24-2007, 10:00 AM | #74 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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04-24-2007, 10:17 AM | #75 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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Thats cool. My math teacher in 6th grade insisted that a kilometer was longer than a mile.
If he would like to enlighten me as to how the "europeans" (who are actually made up of many distinct cultures) are somehow more efficient at dominating other cultures than the mongols (arguably the best in history), I would love to hear it. Don't confuse being trite with being educated.
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-24-2007, 10:40 AM | #77 (permalink) |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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debaser, I think you're confusing military with cultural domination. With the possible exception of the Chinese, the Mongols left the cultures alone when they invaded.
The all-time masters of domination, in my opinion, were the Romans who basically assimilated (or tried to) every culture that they defeated on the battlefield. They basically just expanded their pantheon of gods to include whatever local ones were around and accepted the newly-defeated into the fold. Then they made them economically dependent and wore away at the cultural edifices that way. The Mongols were a bunch of highly mobile archers that basically swept back and forth across Asia. The fact that Russia isn't significantly Mongol-influenced despite being ruled by the Mongols for 300 or so years basically disproves your entire point.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
04-24-2007, 02:10 PM | #78 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
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IT IS JUST US HERE PEOPLE: "DEBATING" SUCH A CONCEPT AS RACISM ENCOURAGES THOSE WHO MIGHT OPPRESS US BY USING IT TO FURTHER THEIR AGENDAS. I HATE HATE, AND HAVING TO DO IT AT ALL.
I hate those who would do it.
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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT |
04-24-2007, 02:39 PM | #79 (permalink) | ||
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
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That being said, you can point to many Mongol influences in Russia, from the prominance of Moscow (perhaps just coincidence) to the superb Cossak cavalry, to the Russians continued blame of the Mongols for their "second class" status in Europe. I would say that they influenced the areas they were in as much as any "bunch of highly mobile archers that basically swept back and forth across Asia" could have. Quote:
PS And hey, I'm not that old...
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Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
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04-24-2007, 03:19 PM | #80 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Moscow rose to prominence because of Ivan III, who was the one who threw off the Mongol shakle, not because the Mongolians willed it. They recognized Kiev as the capital of "Russia", such as it was. Russia as a part of the "East" is more a question of geography than anything else, especially when you realize that the Russia of the 17th Century had borders well east of anything today. To get back on track here, colonialism is military AND cultural. It must have both to fit the definition. There's also the issue of time, as seen by the fact that 200 years of British rule left an indelible mark on India whereas 50 years of British rule did virtually nothing for Palestine.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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