Death of a Dream - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

hiredgun · 03-07-2007, 06:23 PM

(If you're reading Marvel's Civil War series and don't want to be spoiled regarding the current storyline, please hit your back button now. I saw this on the front page of the New York Times, so I'd stay away from there too

)

Now, this is certainly interesting and revealing as a reflection of our national zeitgeist.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/08/bo...hp&oref=slogin

Quote:

Captain America Is Dead; National Hero Since 1941
By GEORGE GENE GUSTINES

Captain America, a Marvel Entertainment superhero, is fatally shot by a sniper in the 25th issue of his eponymous comic, which arrived in stores yesterday. The assassination ends the sentinel of liberty’s fight for right, which began in 1941.

The last episode in Captain America’s life comes after the events of “Civil War,” a seven-issue mini-series that has affected nearly the entire line of Marvel’s library of titles. In “Civil War,” the government began requiring superheroes to register their services, and it outlawed vigilantism after supervillains and superheroes fought during a reality show, accidentally killing hundreds of civilians. The public likened the heroes to weapons of mass destruction that must be controlled.

The registration act polarized the superhero community. Captain America (whose true identity was Steve Rogers) considered the legislation an erosion of civil liberties; Iron Man, on the other side, believed that training heroes as the military, firefighters or the police are trained would only benefit society. When the factions came to blows and caused more destruction, Captain America chose to fight his battle in court.

But in the current issue of his title, Captain America takes bullets in the shoulder and stomach while on the courthouse steps. The assassin is alleged to be Sharon Carter, an intelligence agent romantically involved with Captain America. She was apparently under the control of Dr. Faustus, a supervillain. “It seemed a little radical when it was first brought up,” said Dan Buckley, the president and publisher of Marvel Entertainment, about the hero’s death. “But sometimes stories just take you places.”

“We as publishers and as creative people knew where the ending was going to go for a long time,” he said. “We knew people might not like it, but I think we delivered a compelling story that made everyone think.”

He added: “The stories we have planned dealing with Cap’s death are really compelling too.”

This is not Captain America’s first brush with death. Toward the end of World War II he plunged into the ocean during a flight on an experimental plane, and he was presumed killed in action. Actually, he was encased in ice and in a state of suspended animation. Many years later he was discovered by the superhero group the Avengers and thawed out to continue his career.

More recently, Bucky, the Captain’s wartime partner — who was thought killed by an explosion as he tried to defuse a bomb — was revealed to be alive. Bucky was saved by Soviet forces, who put him on ice and thawed him for their own missions. Captain America broke the Soviet hold on Bucky, and the two had a brief reunion. Bucky, who has taken on the name the Winter Soldier, is now on a quest to redeem his actions.

So is this the end of Captain America? “He’s very dead right now,” Mr. Buckley said.

Still, these are comic books, where characters have a history of dying and returning. Most famously, DC published “The Death of Superman” in November 1992. That comic was a best seller, but the Man of Steel eventually returned to the land of the living in August 1993.

Fans on newsarama.com, a Web site devoted to comic book news, quickly posted their reactions to Captain America’s death. They ranged from a cynical “Yeah, right!” and “I know it’s temporary” to the more media-savvy: “I’m fairly sure killing Cap with a movie in development (plus a possible Avengers flick on the way as well) would not be very sensible. So, I shall wait and see.”

I think this is an interesting reflection of America today, and one that corresponds to a deep sense of disillusionment and uncertainty about America's role and future in the world; I think it's also a disillusionment that transcends ordinary political boundaries.

That the writers at Marvel would choose to kill off one of the medium's oldest symbols of American values and justice is to me far more interesting than the backdrop against which it was done (a thinly-veiled security-vs-liberties motif that has been done to death in comics and even comic-based films).

Apparently, Cap's iconic mask has been taken up by, of all people, the Punisher (whose values and methods represent the antithesis of Captain America's noble and altruistic crusade). It suggests to me the idea that the old America, particularly the America of WWII and the Cold War, is dead and has passed the mantle on to a cruel modern age.

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this fictional development and what light it might shed on our national consciousness. I'm also curious about previous periods of political uncertainty and disillusionment; I wasn't around during the 60's and 70's, but was the spirit of those decades captured in contemporary comics?

Infinite_Loser · 03-07-2007, 06:40 PM

Ummm... I've been reading comics for years and I think that you might be over-thinking things a bit. Besides, if you're looking for underlying motifs then you ought to read the <i>Earth-X</i> mini-series.

Halx · 03-07-2007, 08:18 PM

To put my spin on it...

Marvel Comics have always stood out to me as the intelligent comics. In the old age of comics, they stood out amongst a batch of soulless, detatched titles. They tackled real issues by way of metaphor, and sometimes brought them to the forefront of their comics. Other companies followed suit, but it was all Marvel's initiative. Captain America was never interesting, nor too popular, but his overt symbolism was hard to ignore. While most comics tackled social issues with a backhanded, entertaining slant, it was never up for interpretation what Captain America was about.

So now he's dead. The reflection of what it means by way of metaphor is, yet again, hard to ignore. This isn't much of a publicity "stunt" - to be perfectly honest, the most important and impactful message Captain America can deliver in his long history will be this story; his death. Nobody would have paid attention otherwise. I'm rather surprised he survived the "death" of the comic industry during the mid 1990's. Everyone knew who Captain America was, but nobody cared. Now they do.

Lizra · 03-07-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

I'm also curious about previous periods of political uncertainty and disillusionment; I wasn't around during the 60's and 70's, but was the spirit of those decades captured in contemporary comics?

I just remember underground comics...the Fabulous Furry Freak Bros and stuff. It was all about personal liberation then...the "country" seemed solid enough.....

Carno · 03-07-2007, 09:20 PM

People still read comics?

opus123 · 03-07-2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this fictional development and what light it might shed on our national consciousness. I'm also curious about previous periods of political uncertainty and disillusionment; I wasn't around during the 60's and 70's, but was the spirit of those decades captured in contemporary comics?

Hmmmmm, I read comics for over 2 decades, but I don't recall comics doing much political stuff in the mainstream comics arena in the 60's and 70's. I do remember a MLK comic that came out in the late 90's and I remember Spiderman's drug issue being a big thing. A few Miller Daredevil comics talked of corrupt polititians, but unless you lived in NYC, you probably did not realize that sometimes the comics were casually mentioning local NYC politics. I grew up in Idaho and did not learn much politics from comics. Mostly I learned hero worship, humor, and some ethics of good & evil from comic books. Then graphic novels came out and Sandman and Preacher and Watchmen all seem more relevant to me ethically and socially, but not really politically. I read a lot about real politics if I am in the mood for it, but comics are mostly for me about humor and suspense and other times gritty gothic plotlines. In college however, I started buying a lot of alternative, kooky, and "personal: comic book runs. Real Life and about half of the Fantagraphic Books titles. I got subscriptions for 2 years, but then I just ran out of space in the closets so I stopped buying comic books. Too this day though, I am a very visual person because of comic books and my abstract and realistic computer art shows a certain action and simple comic book quality that rubbed off on me. Hopefully my 3,000 comics will someday be given to a grand nephew or sold to buy a house, if the prices go up some day. I have no clue what prices are and frankly don't much care I guess....

I do recall a Howard Chaykin's comic book about politics and the lead character was named Flagg or something like that. It was good and I have the first 10 issues, but I can't recall much about it. I have more memories of the secret wars, sandman, hunk going insane, avengers doing wild stuff, and a few other comics that I'd rather not mention. (^:

Civil War seems interesting and once a year I go and buy comics and I will hopefully get the Civil War graphic novel it is out around Christmas.

cheers,

Jonathan

Willravel · 03-07-2007, 09:30 PM

Not really, but Captain America is a big part of American mythology. Remember when Superman died in 1993? It was devastating to a lot of people, even those who weren't avid comic book fans. While Cap isn't as big as Superman, he is a staple of Marvel and a pretty big deal. Also, this represents a fundamental shift in the paradigm of the Marvel universe. The Mutant Registration Act may well win out over liberty and change characters like Spider-man (who actually revealed his secret identity this year), X-Men, etc.

powerclown · 03-07-2007, 11:58 PM

Iron Man was always cooler than Captain America anyway.
It is interesting how Marvel is putting the real world into its comics, is this a first? Never heard of this kind of thing.
I don't think Captain America will remain dead forever, nor will America.

Menoman · 03-09-2007, 01:43 AM

Captain America has been metaphorical about the real world since its conception.

He is something like 60 years old at this point, they really just needed to kick him in the side to kill him. Hard recovery from a broken hip.

SecretMethod70 · 03-13-2007, 03:19 PM

03-07-2007, 06:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	Ummm... I've been reading comics for years and I think that you might be over-thinking things a bit. Besides, if you're looking for underlying motifs then you ought to read the <i>Earth-X</i> mini-series. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

03-07-2007, 08:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	To put my spin on it... Marvel Comics have always stood out to me as the intelligent comics. In the old age of comics, they stood out amongst a batch of soulless, detatched titles. They tackled real issues by way of metaphor, and sometimes brought them to the forefront of their comics. Other companies followed suit, but it was all Marvel's initiative. Captain America was never interesting, nor too popular, but his overt symbolism was hard to ignore. While most comics tackled social issues with a backhanded, entertaining slant, it was never up for interpretation what Captain America was about. So now he's dead. The reflection of what it means by way of metaphor is, yet again, hard to ignore. This isn't much of a publicity "stunt" - to be perfectly honest, the most important and impactful message Captain America can deliver in his long history will be this story; his death. Nobody would have paid attention otherwise. I'm rather surprised he survived the "death" of the comic industry during the mid 1990's. Everyone knew who Captain America was, but nobody cared. Now they do. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

03-13-2007, 03:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	<embed FlashVars='config=http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/xml/data_synd.jhtml?vid=83567%26myspace=false' src='http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/syndicated_player/index.jhtml' quality='high' bgcolor='#006699' width='340' height='325' name='comedy_player' align='middle' allowScriptAccess='always' allownetworking='external' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer'></embed> __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-07-2007, 09:20 PM	#5 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	People still read comics?

03-07-2007, 09:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Not really, but Captain America is a big part of American mythology. Remember when Superman died in 1993? It was devastating to a lot of people, even those who weren't avid comic book fans. While Cap isn't as big as Superman, he is a staple of Marvel and a pretty big deal. Also, this represents a fundamental shift in the paradigm of the Marvel universe. The Mutant Registration Act may well win out over liberty and change characters like Spider-man (who actually revealed his secret identity this year), X-Men, etc.

03-07-2007, 11:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Iron Man was always cooler than Captain America anyway. It is interesting how Marvel is putting the real world into its comics, is this a first? Never heard of this kind of thing. I don't think Captain America will remain dead forever, nor will America.