Some people make me so sick and angry - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dksuddeth · 01-06-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

The mother of a boy convicted Friday in the gang rape of an 11-year-old girl on Labor Day told a judge the girl was also to blame and that her son was the victim of "little flipper girls" who think it's cool to have sex with multiple partners.

That prompted Milwaukee County Children's Court Judge Mary Triggiano to abruptly interrupt her.

"What he did was rape that girl," Triggiano said, calling the deflection of responsibility to the girl appalling.

"He got caught. He didn't take responsibility until something pegged him for being there."

Court records show that eight members of the boy's family, including his mother, had agreed to testify that he was at a family reunion until 10 p.m. the night of the assaults - until the boy's DNA was shown to be among the evidence found on the girl.

Earlier in the hearing, the boy's mother had quietly called the girl "a whore" within earshot of Seymour Gimbel, the attorney representing the 11-year-old, who was not present.

Gimbel was seated near the boy's mother in the back of the courtroom.

"The neighborhood itself is having a problem with this (case)," Gimbel said. "A few minutes ago she called the 11-year old girl 'a whore.' This is an 11-year-old child who has been raped . . . I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy."

The boy, who was 14 at the time, told Triggiano he left home without his mother's knowledge after 10 p.m. on Sept. 4 to purchase a T-shirt at a nearby gas station.

He said he met some friends who told him a girl was "flipping," which he said meant "doing sexual favors" with multiple people.

"To be honest, in the neighborhood that's not that uncommon," he said.

When he arrived at the house in the 3700 block of N. 6th St., he said, there were about 10 men or boys in the basement and the girl was performing oral sex on one of them.

A 16-year-old girl accused of directing some of the assaults was present, he said, and told the younger girl that she needed to "do a few more."

The boy said he then had oral sex with the younger girl and described it as consensual.

"I was wrong, I understand that," the boy said. "She didn't seem that young. I never made her do anything. She was doing it willingly. I would never rape anyone, period."

The boy pleaded guilty to one count of party to the crime of first-degree sexual assault. He was sentenced to up to three years in a secure juvenile facility and another two years on community supervision.

"When I hear him say that flipping is not uncommon in the community, it turns my stomach," Triggiano said. "I have to believe that there are kids that would say this is wrong and go for help. He didn't do it."

After the hearing, the case took another twist. Outside the courtroom, the boy's mother told a reporter during an interview that she had a copy of a closely held videotape of the girl's initial statement to police, had shown it to others and had downloaded it to her home computer.

She offered to show it to a reporter.

"I really want people to see this because a lot of lives are being affected," the woman said. The woman is not being named because her son, who recently turned 15, is being prosecuted as a juvenile.

Fourteen people, half of them juveniles, have been charged with sexually assaulting the girl. As of Friday, eight have been found guilty in the case.

Prosecutors said they had launched an immediate investigation into how the victim's videotaped statement was obtained.

Triggiano said she was "deeply concerned" about the new development and about the potential of "the victim being re-victimized" if the girl's taped statement about the assaults was widely disseminated.

Restraining order issued

Late Friday, Children's Court Judge David Borowski issued a temporary restraining order, at the request of the district attorney's office, barring the mother from releasing the content of the videotape to anyone except police.

"This is akin to opening a feather pillow and then attempting to gather all the feathers; it is impossible," Lori Kornblum, an assistant district attorney, told Borowski.

In an interview Friday night, Kornblum expressed concern that if the woman has a copy of the videotape, it could go on the Internet and be uploaded and distributed worldwide. Police went to the woman's house Friday in an attempt to get more information. Details of that contact were not available.

Borowski scheduled a hearing on the matter for Jan. 16.

The boy's mother told a reporter she had obtained the tape from Thomas Kurzynski, her son's attorney.

Kurzynski said Friday that he did not provide her with a copy, only that he had watched it with her in his office.

Assistant District Attorney Matt Torbenson said his office must turn over evidence in the case to the defense counsel.

The statute allows that attorney to share the information only with his client, Torbenson said.

"It is inappropriate for anyone else to view this videotape," he said. "The potential is there for private information to become public that could seriously damage the victim."

11 years old, and 7 ADULTS seem to have had no problem doing this? My god, what the hell is wrong with some people? And then his mother and family were quite willing to lie about it until his DNA showed up.

Ourcrazymodern? · 01-06-2007, 02:11 PM

Yeah, it's a world-turned-on-its head, and we don't seem to be getting any better. That neighborhood must be a HELL of a place to live.
I wonder what the unemployment rate is?

flstf · 01-06-2007, 02:56 PM

Apparently the girl was HIV positive so perhaps the 19 men and boys will have something to remember the occasion by. Your thread title says it well "sick and angry".

Vincentt · 01-07-2007, 03:17 AM

11.... that is unreal.
I just can't understand it at any level...

Shauk · 01-07-2007, 04:10 AM

you know... I cant really quantify a fair comparison, but I had some strong urges to get after this one girl I knew, until i found out she was 14. She looked 19 at least, and I was 22 at the time.

needless to say, I had the moral restriction to have her find some place else to hang out and wear her revealing clothing, because I wasn't having it.

DaElf · 01-07-2007, 07:41 AM

As I was once a 14 year old boy I can understand why he stayed and did what he did. Even if he wasn't comfortable with the situation he probably still felt pressured to do it because of the people around him. That doesn't make it any less wrong but it's understandable at least. As for the adults I can't even imagine what was going on in their head.

ngdawg · 01-07-2007, 08:48 AM

Ten 'men or boys'? And the girl's 11? I don't care if she did 'consent', she's freakin 11! Those people are sick and that mother of that one boy needs as much help as anyone.
As to the 'it's not that uncommon', there's a lot of things kids 'think' everone's doing, when in fact, they aren't. Then they get duped into doing the same thing and try to excuse it with 'well, everyone's doing it'....uh, no they aren't.
Sick, sick, sick....

Willy · 01-07-2007, 08:57 AM

Would be interesting to hear the rest of the story. I think it could be reasonably possible that the 14 year old did consider it consensual, but people who are over 18 should know better than to have sex with an 11 year old, consensual or not. The whole situation is just amazingly messed up.

skier · 01-17-2007, 10:44 AM

Judge should spend some time in a slum. What the young boys and girls needed was education, not extreme punishment.

Older males can just go to jail though

Jinn · 01-17-2007, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

11 years old, and 7 ADULTS seem to have had no problem doing this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Article

The boy, who was 14 at the time,

Not an adult. I have a problem with the adults doing it, but at 14 I dont think I would have had a problem (biological difficulties aside) with having sex with an 11 year old. They're both minors, and the law doesn't say anything about minor-on-minor freaking, for good reason.

dksuddeth · 01-17-2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Not an adult. I have a problem with the adults doing it, but at 14 I dont think I would have had a problem (biological difficulties aside) with having sex with an 11 year old. They're both minors, and the law doesn't say anything about minor-on-minor freaking, for good reason.

read the article, the part that I bolded.

Quote:

Fourteen people, half of them juveniles, have been charged with sexually assaulting the girl.

that means that 7 of them were adults.

Jinn · 01-17-2007, 09:01 PM

well played, i concede

analog · 01-18-2007, 03:40 AM

I don't know why the word "consent" is being bandied about so much... there's no such thing as "consensual sex" with an 11 year old. Every time I see, "consensual or not" or "whether or not she seemed to consent to it", i have to cringe. There's no such thing. The reason they cannot consent is specifically because just saying "yes" does not mean they understand what they're doing. They may think it's the best thing in the world, but that doesn't mean they understand what's being done to them. That's why there is no consent, and it is bad to use terms like "even if she said it was ok".

The 14-year-old boy's crime was not the act itself, it was participating in the act with men who WERE sexually assaulting her under the law. Like being the guy who drives the car, when your cohorts went into the store to hold it up. You don't get a free pass because you didn't actually commit the crime that was going on around you.

And no, the kid definitely deserved his sentence... education or no, it takes a serious lack of moral judgment to not only see this going on and not say something afterward, but to actively encourage the cover-up by lying and getting other to lie about it with you. I believe it is that glaring lack of moral judgment that the judge sought to punish/correct.

The parents of the 14 year old boy should be terribly, terribly ashamed of themselves- especially the mother, calling an 11 year old a whore. What a stupid cunt (and I hate using that word, but it's the only one for her). An 11 year old girl is raped by 14 people, 7 of which being grown men, and she's trying to insist that the 11 year old girl is to blame. There is a special place in hell for people like this boy's mother, and I bet her spot has been set aside ahead of time.

Bill O'Rights · 01-18-2007, 05:41 AM

Well...I'm almost there with you, Analog. I definately stand shoulder to shoulder with you in regards to the "mother". What a piece of work she is. She's just a sebaceous cyst on the hairy ass of society.

The kid, though? I'm not entirely convinced. Did he know, or should he have known, that what he was doing was wrong? Yeah...probably so. But, I'm a little more inclined to think that what we have here, is a fourteen year old boy. All he knows, or really cares about, is that he's getting a blowjob. 11 year old girl? Unthinkable to you or me...but to a 14 year old boy? Maybe not so much.

analog · 01-18-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

All he knows, or really cares about, is that he's getting a blowjob.

I can accept his end of it, I meant his silence about what the others were doing. I wonder how plausible it is that a normal 14 year old is actually clueless to the fact that grown men shouldn't be having sex or sexual favors with an 11 year old Or that it's not normal for an 11 year old to be blowing more than a dozen guys period, regardless of their ages. I mean, 14 years old is 8th grade into 9th grade, usually... I find it hard to believe that he didn't know what was going on around him wasn't wrong. That's more what I meant.

Bill O'Rights · 01-18-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

I find it hard to believe that he didn't know what was going on around him wasn't wrong.

That's just it. Given the implied state of parental involvement...he might not have. I'm gonna go way out on the limb here, and suppose that the kid has no father, or any other positive male role model, in his life. His mother? Well, we see what she's about. I'm guessing that her involvement in his life is negligible, at best (maybe that's a good thing). I'm going to further suppose that he was raised in an environment that demeans women. To him, all a woman is good for is one thing. Respect? None. Just Bitches and Hoes.
It also sounds, to me, as though this "flipping" (never heard that term before) is common place in his 'hood. If so, then this was nothing new to him, and was probably seen as normal occurance. Then...one wonders about the environment that the 11 year old girl is from. Did she do it for fun? Was it an initiation rite?

You may not believe that he didn't know that what was going on around him was wrong...I may not believe that he didn't know that what was going on around him was wrong...most of us here may not believe that he didn't know that what was going on around him was wrong...but I think that may very well be the case here.

flat5 · 01-19-2007, 04:22 AM

He also had to live in that area. If he had told the police, what would he think was going to happen to him?

Just saying...I don't want to know these people.

Hash_Browns · 01-22-2007, 09:52 AM

And people think I'm strange because I don't let my 7 year old hang out with the little girl from down the street. The same little girl who decided to pull her shirt off while outside with my daughter on her trampoline. Then proceeded to 'go potty' behind her garage. 7 years old...flashing and droppin' drawers outside...yeah..I want her to learn that...

I pray that I never have to face a day where the things in this article become common place here. And if they are, I will be happy to tell people to f-off about why my kids are 'sheltered'. (They are educated about people and life, not kept from it completely.)

Shadow_fire · 01-26-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

I don't know why the word "consent" is being bandied about so much... there's no such thing as "consensual sex" with an 11 year old. Every time I see, "consensual or not" or "whether or not she seemed to consent to it", i have to cringe. There's no such thing. The reason they cannot consent is specifically because just saying "yes" does not mean they understand what they're doing. They may think it's the best thing in the world, but that doesn't mean they understand what's being done to them. That's why there is no consent, and it is bad to use terms like "even if she said it was ok".

Absolutely, I couldn't agree further, thats the entire theory behind having a statutory rape charge. Consent doesn't exist here in Canada until 14, and I believe even that is slightly young, I think 16 is definitely what it should be. This sickens me beyond belief, I mean fuck my little sister is 11. This is absolutely terrible. Sick bastards.

Ourcrazymodern? · 01-28-2007, 07:05 PM

There was a pleasant peasant, and she had a pretty face, and I think I could have loved her if I had survived the chase.

jbw97361 · 01-29-2007, 07:09 PM

Not saying that the kids are all exempt from blame here... but!

Lets hear it for those two income families! Hooray for those parents who are both willing to work to ensure that better quality of life. Don't worry, little Timmy and Judy will be fine at home till mommy and daddy get home at 7 pm. Our children are so responsible they would never do anything wrong. Besides, mommy and daddy work so hard to ensure that Timmy and Judy have all the best things in life.

Personally, I'd rather be poor and have good friends than rich and dead inside.

Gilda · 01-29-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

I can accept his end of it, I meant his silence about what the others were doing. I wonder how plausible it is that a normal 14 year old is actually clueless to the fact that grown men shouldn't be having sex or sexual favors with an 11 year old Or that it's not normal for an 11 year old to be blowing more than a dozen guys period, regardless of their ages. I mean, 14 years old is 8th grade into 9th grade, usually... I find it hard to believe that he didn't know what was going on around him wasn't wrong. That's more what I meant.

Mob mentality. People in groups do things that they wouldn't do as an individual, that they wouldn't even consider doing as an individual. The social reinforcement that comes from having others present doing the same thing is a powerful motivator. This can sometimes happen with groups as small as two people. See In Cold Blood.

This doesn't make it right, goodness no, but it does help to understand what some of the forces involved are. Of course the individuals retain individual responsibility regardless of what others around them are doing and need to be punished appropriately, but at the same time understanding the atmosphere that creates the possibility for such an event helps us to find ways to attack the problem from the other end as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbw97361

Personally, I'd rather be poor and have good friends than rich and dead inside.

I'd rather be financially stable and comfortable and have good friends. There's a huge middle ground between rich and poor and having good friends and being dead inside. I've been poor and financially stable. Stable is much better. I've felt dead inside and . . . well I have a supportive family and I'm learning how the friends thing works. The latter is better than the former and the two qualities are not linked, at least not in a linear way. Being poor can lead to problems and place obstacles in the way of happiness that those with a comfortable income don't have to deal with, so it's relevant in that way.

01-06-2007, 02:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Yeah, it's a world-turned-on-its head, and we don't seem to be getting any better. That neighborhood must be a HELL of a place to live. I wonder what the unemployment rate is? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

01-07-2007, 03:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	11.... that is unreal. I just can't understand it at any level... __________________ .

01-07-2007, 07:41 AM	#6 (permalink)
DaElf Tilted Location: Washington	As I was once a 14 year old boy I can understand why he stayed and did what he did. Even if he wasn't comfortable with the situation he probably still felt pressured to do it because of the people around him. That doesn't make it any less wrong but it's understandable at least. As for the adults I can't even imagine what was going on in their head. __________________ I'm sitting at my desk right now waiting for you to reply to the above message.

01-07-2007, 08:48 AM	#7 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Ten 'men or boys'? And the girl's 11? I don't care if she did 'consent', she's freakin 11! Those people are sick and that mother of that one boy needs as much help as anyone. As to the 'it's not that uncommon', there's a lot of things kids 'think' everone's doing, when in fact, they aren't. Then they get duped into doing the same thing and try to excuse it with 'well, everyone's doing it'....uh, no they aren't. Sick, sick, sick.... __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

01-17-2007, 10:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
skier Rawr! Location: Edmontania	Judge should spend some time in a slum. What the young boys and girls needed was education, not extreme punishment. Older males can just go to jail though __________________ "Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

01-06-2007, 02:56 PM	#3 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Apparently the girl was HIV positive so perhaps the 19 men and boys will have something to remember the occasion by. Your thread title says it well "sick and angry".

01-07-2007, 04:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	you know... I cant really quantify a fair comparison, but I had some strong urges to get after this one girl I knew, until i found out she was 14. She looked 19 at least, and I was 22 at the time. needless to say, I had the moral restriction to have her find some place else to hang out and wear her revealing clothing, because I wasn't having it.

01-07-2007, 08:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
Willy Insane	Would be interesting to hear the rest of the story. I think it could be reasonably possible that the 14 year old did consider it consensual, but people who are over 18 should know better than to have sex with an 11 year old, consensual or not. The whole situation is just amazingly messed up.

01-17-2007, 09:01 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	well played, i concede __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

01-18-2007, 03:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
analog Banned	I don't know why the word "consent" is being bandied about so much... there's no such thing as "consensual sex" with an 11 year old. Every time I see, "consensual or not" or "whether or not she seemed to consent to it", i have to cringe. There's no such thing. The reason they cannot consent is specifically because just saying "yes" does not mean they understand what they're doing. They may think it's the best thing in the world, but that doesn't mean they understand what's being done to them. That's why there is no consent, and it is bad to use terms like "even if she said it was ok". The 14-year-old boy's crime was not the act itself, it was participating in the act with men who WERE sexually assaulting her under the law. Like being the guy who drives the car, when your cohorts went into the store to hold it up. You don't get a free pass because you didn't actually commit the crime that was going on around you. And no, the kid definitely deserved his sentence... education or no, it takes a serious lack of moral judgment to not only see this going on and not say something afterward, but to actively encourage the cover-up by lying and getting other to lie about it with you. I believe it is that glaring lack of moral judgment that the judge sought to punish/correct. The parents of the 14 year old boy should be terribly, terribly ashamed of themselves- especially the mother, calling an 11 year old a whore. What a stupid cunt (and I hate using that word, but it's the only one for her). An 11 year old girl is raped by 14 people, 7 of which being grown men, and she's trying to insist that the 11 year old girl is to blame. There is a special place in hell for people like this boy's mother, and I bet her spot has been set aside ahead of time.

01-18-2007, 05:41 AM	#14 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Well...I'm almost there with you, Analog. I definately stand shoulder to shoulder with you in regards to the "mother". What a piece of work she is. She's just a sebaceous cyst on the hairy ass of society. The kid, though? I'm not entirely convinced. Did he know, or should he have known, that what he was doing was wrong? Yeah...probably so. But, I'm a little more inclined to think that what we have here, is a fourteen year old boy. All he knows, or really cares about, is that he's getting a blowjob. 11 year old girl? Unthinkable to you or me...but to a 14 year old boy? Maybe not so much. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

01-19-2007, 04:22 AM	#17 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	He also had to live in that area. If he had told the police, what would he think was going to happen to him? Just saying...I don't want to know these people.

01-22-2007, 09:52 AM	#18 (permalink)
Hash_Browns Psycho Location: Right behind you...BOO!	And people think I'm strange because I don't let my 7 year old hang out with the little girl from down the street. The same little girl who decided to pull her shirt off while outside with my daughter on her trampoline. Then proceeded to 'go potty' behind her garage. 7 years old...flashing and droppin' drawers outside...yeah..I want her to learn that... I pray that I never have to face a day where the things in this article become common place here. And if they are, I will be happy to tell people to f-off about why my kids are 'sheltered'. (They are educated about people and life, not kept from it completely.) __________________ Smile It makes people wonder what you're up too!

01-28-2007, 07:05 PM	#20 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	The Snake There was a pleasant peasant, and she had a pretty face, and I think I could have loved her if I had survived the chase. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT Last edited by Ourcrazymodern?; 01-28-2007 at 08:42 PM.. Reason: Original sin.

01-29-2007, 07:09 PM	#21 (permalink)
jbw97361 Tilted	oh yeah! Not saying that the kids are all exempt from blame here... but! Lets hear it for those two income families! Hooray for those parents who are both willing to work to ensure that better quality of life. Don't worry, little Timmy and Judy will be fine at home till mommy and daddy get home at 7 pm. Our children are so responsible they would never do anything wrong. Besides, mommy and daddy work so hard to ensure that Timmy and Judy have all the best things in life. Personally, I'd rather be poor and have good friends than rich and dead inside. __________________ JBW