Student shot with Taser by UCPD officers
 

Link:http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38958


I don't know much about how the police works, I DO know that the police mean business when on duty and it's foolish to get smart with them. And I know that they will do what is necessary to subdue the suspect. But given this case, is it necessary for them to do what they did? Would this be considered excessive use of force?

be prepared to show your papers at all times. This is no longer America.

Found a link to the camera phone footage on Youtube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E

While I normally consider dksuddeth's points all too true or prophetic, in this case, I disagree on principle.

"This is no longer America" is correct. It was a college library, and asking for proof that a person is entitled to be there (as opposed to being some kind of freak stalking the college girls) is prudent. Any history of attacks on students at this institution, or its simply being in a bad neighborhood, would further bolster the idea that this policy was instituted due to one or more past incidents.

Leaving when you're unable to prove you belong at a college is not unreasonable. Waiting until the cops arrive is stupid.

We may never know the actual events, but this guy sounds like an asshat.

and yet, after the fact, the student was proven to be a student after all. So what 'principle' do you stand on?

because we MUST sacrifice our liberties to be protected at all times, even if it requires an occasional tasing by the police, or even to have a few people shot and killed as an example to NEVER disregard a policemans authority. After all, they are the 'only ones'.

because you MUST prove that you belong somewhere, not like we mere citizens have any more rights anymore.

why? because he stood up for himself? because he refused to abide by an idiot officers orders? because he didn't show his 'papers'? welcome to Amerika.

Did ya'll watch that video? the guy said several times he was leaving, he asked to be allowed to leave, the cops tazered him and then demanded that he stand up, an almost impossible act after a tazering. I wonder if the fact that the kid was Iranian had anything to do with the excessive force used.

Yes when you tazer someone that is actually complying just because they don't want you to touch them, which he had the right to request, it's excessive force. Is there a difference in how much a campus cop can get away with and a real cop? I don't live on campus and have absolutly no contact with campus cops most of the time, so I don't know.

regardless, unreasonable but physically harmless actions and being an asshat are NO justification for the use of weapons, "non-lethal" or otherwise. there is no way this guy could have been taken as a physical threat at any time. why did it have to go beyond arresting him and dragging him out the door?

This is getting silly:

The guy was in a private library, he was asked to show ID and he didn't it does not matter if he was a student or not, he did not have the identification and should have left when asked. He refused and waited until the campus police came.

He was Tasered on the low setting, I set up the Taser for my campus police at the campus I work at, and I tested it for them. it does not hurt, there is no real pain involved, its a constriction of the muscles, and its very disturbing, but the effects ware off quickly, you can get up after a few seconds of being Tasered on full, his was a light setting, he should have been able to walk. However if he had some medical condition this all changes.

He was asked to leave and he didn’t, if he had left as soon as the campus police came there would be no incident, they came and he still did not leave, he did not leave when they drew the Taser, or when they aimed, he waited... he was asked to leave and he didn’t, he’s an idiot and was asking for it, Once, Not 5 times. It was the taser, the Billy club, or mace / pepper spray.

Bottom line: he was asked to leave for a legit reason. He refused; instead of risking getting hurt themselves the campus police used the Taser to inspire cooperation. The question is did they use it to much, I think they did, but only an investigation will tell if they really did or not. They were not wrong to use it, but they may have been wrong to use it as much as they did.

when did a federally funded university library become 'private' property?


and by watching the video, you know this how?


Again, we see the 'just obey the police' and we'll all be ok. they are there for our safety and do no wrong.

and here all along I thought the taser was used to subdue a suspect with non-lethal means, not as a compliance tool.

Investigation my ass, the cops get to act like thugs and hardly ever get busted for it.

campus rules:
Library Rules:
The rules of the campus say carry ID all the time. The officials asked for his id, he could not produce it, so he was asked to leave, he refused. He broke the rules, what is so hard to see about this?


Because I do research:
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38960
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10325914/det...ss=la&psp=news

They did not shoot him with a taser, they used the metal prongs on the front. This delivers a small shock, not the full shock it’s capable of.

just to clear this all up, He was not shot with a taser, shooting with a taser involces metal barbs, he was taser with the prongs, it is not as bad as being shot with a taser.

He could have left at any time before or during the confrontation, he did not, the police had no real choice, the only other choice was to drag him out. He could have kicked put, or possibly stabbed an officer, the man was clearly in the wrong with his non compliance. The owners asked him to leave, period.

It's private property for IDENTIFIED students of the university.

Having also gone to the libraries of UCLA as a teen, I know the signage that was posted around the campus.

If it's public property, then homeless people and all other non students have the right to be there. That is not the case.

LINK

The kid was definitely being a douchebag about the whole thing, and I don't have a ton of sympathy for him.

However, if the reports that the police tasered him 3,4,5 times are true, that's simply uncalled for. I was under the impression that tasers are supposed to be a non-lethal way to combat aggressive resistance, not teaching douchebag kids a "lesson."

The kid could have avoided the whole mess if he hadn't been such an angsty asshat, but there were far better ways for the police to deal with the situation. I'm interested in what follow-up investigations conclude.

Normally I'd jump all over the police and put the blame squarely on their shoulders, but after watching the video on Youtube and I have to say that I place the blame solely on the student.

There have been times when I've had to leave certain areas of the school I attend because I'd left my ID in my dorm. Even though it's a major inconvenience, I realize that it's done to protect the safety of all the students who attend here. All the dickhead had to do was leave when asked but he refused. So let's look at the situation. You have an unidentified man on private property who refuses to identity himself and refuses to leave when asked. Would some of you have wanted the cops to ask the guy to leave and wait patiently until he felt like complying or would you have rathered them go Rodney King of him? The bottom line is that 1.) The guy refused to leave when asked and 2.) using a taser is the preferred to using physical force. The moron got what was coming to him.

Furthermore, did anyone notice that when the cops told him to stand up he replied with a prompt "Fuck you!"? That typically doesn't help one's case... And, you know, I also found it funny that he had enough in him to continue screaming "Fuck you!" to the cops instead of standing up as he was told. And yes, I've been tased before. Remeber when we were kids and we went around shocking each other? It sorta' feels like that, only stronger. It doesn't completely immobilize you and the feeling wears off after a few seconds. He should have been able to easily stand up; That guy's a pretty good actor if you ask me.

Edit: That guy should be ashamed for screaming like a girl.

hehe yeah...

I'm a person on the side of the police most times, after years of working with them in private security and having many police officers as friends; in this case, the TASER would, in most jurisdictions, constitute an excess of force as it does not appear to have been neccessary to get the student to leave.

Having said that, the student obviously could have avoided the whole incident and/or handled it better.

I'm a little bit surprised that the no one got physical with the cops. That's really pretty stupid to pull in front of a bunch of students. I hope they all get get taken to court over this, above losing their jobs. If 5-7 cops can't take one student out of a library without tasering him 5 times and causing this kind of fiasco, they shouldn't be working in this environment. I can't believe a college student didn't run out of the library when told to by the campus cops at 11:30 pm....that sort of lathargical performance and mild authority rebellion must truly be singular - what a maverick! Must be the first time these guys had run into such a tricky and complex situation.

In short, pigglet's summary is "Fuck these guys - too bad no one handed them their asses on the spot."

pigglet you've taken the words right out of my mouth. I don't think I would feel very safe on campus at UCLA knowing that security can't peacefully handle a teenager disrespecting authority. How the hell did they get their jobs with that little actual skill in practice?

Regardless of how the kid acted, more than one tazering is unncessary unless there is fear of actual violence from the offender. The cops got mad and tazered from anger, and that is the line between right and wrong use of force. I've never been tazered, but I've been hit with a cattle prod before, it took a bit before my legs wanted to work after that.

For all of you that say the taser was not necessary, how would you get the trespasser off the property, you asked him nicely to leave. Seriously folks, he was breaking the law, and refused to cooperate with police.

There only real options were to pick him up and drag him out. Smack him with the Billy club until he cooperated. Or taser him till he cooperated. Billy clubs are always a bad choice. He could lash out if he was dragged out causing injury to the police and forcing the police to restrain him. tasering was an acceptable option. tasering 5 times seems excessive to me, but it may have been justified, we will only know that after an investigation.

Just some more information i can bring to the table, the taser they use at my college keeps track of the time and duration it is used. When they get back to the station, they plug it in and all the information is recorded. Hopefully they have something similar.

Wow. What a tool that kid was. His screaming like a little bitch was really annoying.

If I were a cop, I probably would have started clubbing him over the head just to get him to shut the fuck up.

dilbert,

I don't know how they could possibly have handled this situation without tasering him. Truly, a conundrum fit for the highest minds to ponder. Yes, I know I'm being a smartass, but this shit really irks me. We've handled these situations for a long time now, without this kind of crap. The way they handled the situation only escalated it, blew it out of proportion, and is now bringing unwanted media attention to the school. Holy shit, who could have seen that coming? Yeah, two or three guys take him by the arms, escort him out and turn him loose or to the station for identification, etc. On the way out, he kicks over a fucking trashcan. Crap!!! EVERYBODY PANICThat would have been infinitely more difficult that this shit. Not to mention, in all seriousness, that all it would have taken is one hotheaded student or for this guy to have some close friends in the crowd and it could have turned really ugly for these cops. Are they going to taser everyone, or start shooting?

And yes carno, that would have definately helped the situation. You didn't say you're a Marine by chance, did you? :D

I mean, the kid probably was being a prick...sort of hard to tell exactly by the video, but it sounds like it from the articles. Just like about 70% of college students - testing their boundaries, rebelling against authority, being smartasses. If the campus police can't handle it more professionally than this, they shouldn't be working in that environment. It could have turned out much worse than it did.

well we really haven’t, there is no good way to diffuse this kind of situation, it used to be handled with fire hoses, dogs, and pepper spray... the taser is a step in the right direction.

There were many ways of handling it, some were better then others, this may not have been the best way, but it was the safest way for the cops, with little long term risk to the trespasser. it would have gotten much uglier if the police tried to drag him out, and he resisted physically, the police may not have been able to taser him, and had to punch him, the students may have then join in the fray.

I think they handled it well, not perfect, but still well, no one was hurt, they may have used it to much, but that will be known later when more facts come out. he was a prick, he was asked to leave, and he refused, he was asked by the campus police to leave, he again refused, after asking nicely, the only other option is force.

The kid was leaving until the officers escalated the situation. If the kid was leaving, as appears to be the case, there was no need to taser him, regardless of attitude. They don't teach this in any police academy around here, believe me.

But these were school cops, right? The standard of training is generally lower for what, in Canada, we would call "special constables" than it is for real cops.

He wasn't leaving, that was the issue, he refused both the library staff, and the campus police.

this situation--and much of this thread---is lunacy.

the idea that cops tazering this kid is in any way defensible is frankly beyond me.
even if he was really not supposed to be there, it is way way out of line.

but the fact is that this kid was a STUDENT.
AT UCLA.
he was a student who forgot his id.
dont you think that getting tazered by cops is a bit excessive as a penalty for forgetting your fucking id?

seriously folks, stop thinking about this through the mediation of those goofball tv cop shows that function to persuade you to think that every last action on the part of police officers is justified because they do them. OF COURSE you can make up some internal logic that would justify this but that you can make one up does not function to legitimate it. it just previews the cop's defense in the civil suit that should follow from this. and i would expect that the university would loose that suit if it went to trail--but the more likely outcome would be that it would get settled out of court and the kid shuttled off to another university somewhere because, like any university, what ucla is REALLY concerned about is its reputation.

so the kid forgot his id: for christ's sake, it would have been no problem to check his status--for example, most computer terminals in uni-libraries are password protected and you need to sign in to get on. if the kid did not have a uni id and password, how would he have been able to use the machine he was working on? the library has a circulation system--his name could have been searched and his status confirmed within a couple seconds. the fucking cops could have checked his status any number of ways.

this kid was not a trespasser--that entire line of jsutification is worthless:
he was and is a STUDENT AT UCLA.

not only do i hope that his family--or he--sues the shit out of ucla for this and that he gets enough money for a free education anywhere else he wants to go----i would hope that every last one of the cops who participated in this loose their jobs.

i am glad someone filmed this and even more glad that it is up on youtube.

tazering a student...."o but they are set on low".....jesus christ...what planet are you on?

I have to say the officers seemd pretty inept to me, and that may have been the cause for them over-reacting that way. I've seen much bigger tougher guys being thrown out of bars by much fewer people. An example would be my roommate who was tossed out like a rag by 3 bouncers when he got into a fight. That 5-7 of them couldn't handle that douchebag and had to resort to a taser is laughable. Then again, campus cops are usually pompous and arrogant most of the time anyway and lack any semblance of professionalism and tact present in even the most dimwitted police officer.

The guy wasn't tasered for not having his ID; He was tasered for not providing his ID when requested and then not leaving private property when asked to.

As my original question was ignored, I'll ask it again. What would you have rathered the cops to do since most of you seem to be against the idea of using a taser? If the cops had used physical force to remove him from the premises then you would have complained that they used an excessive amount of force given the situation. The only other option would be to do nothing, but that'd be stupid. As stated earlier, using a taser is preferred to physical force.

Edit: It doesn't matter if you're a student or not. If you can't provide your school ID when you're requested, then you can be asked to leave the premises. What I can't understand is how people are sticking up for this guy. He had an ample amount of opportunity to leave even before the cops arrived, and he even refused to leave when the cops asked him nicely. And it's funny because he might even be rewarded for being a dumbass.

Yay for America!

the question of the privateness of the property is irrelevant in this case because, like it or not, the kid was a student.
he or his family is shelling out a significant chunk of change for the privelege, and one of the benefits of that cash exchange is that he gets access to the facilities. period.

the question of his status could have been resolved VERY SIMPLY. resolving the matter is a no-brainer--that it does not seem to have occurred to anyone to check speaks volumes about the security apparatus employed by ucla.
none of this was necessary.
not a single aspect of it was necessary.

the questions you ask, infinite loser, presuppose a sequence of assumptions be held as binding that i think are entirely wrong.
to start with, you presuppose that the police action was legitimate.
i dont see that as even a remote possibility.
apparently, you think it is ok to tazer a student for forgetting an id card.
i think that is insane.
further, you make some kind of dreamland distinction between a tazer and physical force.
i do not know what you are talking about.
a tazer IS form of physical force.
and there is NO justification for anything like physical force being used in this context.


and this was a library.
you have university cops tazering a student in a library.
yay america indeed.
way to fucking go.

He had no ID, he is supposed to. Period. He was asked to leave because he could not be identified as a student, he did not, and he is a trespasser. Period. The law officials on campus asked him to leave, he did not, and he broke the law. He resisted, he was tasered with the light setting rather then dragging him out. He was not beaten, he was not assaulted, he was tasered, it is an uncomfortable experience, but it is not painful. If he had just left when asked, it all would have been over. He resisted, and that is wrong. If a cop tells you to do something, you do it, unless it is grossly wrong, then if you disagree with it, you complain later. This kind of passive resistance does not help, especially when you are clearly in the wrong. This student was clearly breaking the rules, and then the law.

No one said it was justified to taser some one for forgetting your ID. That was not the issue. The issue was he was asked to leave for breaking the rules, he refused, he was no longer welcome in the library for breaking the rules and since he refused to leave, he is a trespasser. Period.

Because you did not read the rules I posted earlier, here they are again, plaine and simple

campus rules:
Cary ID with you, Period.

Library Rules:

Quoted for truth.

Also, these campus police are an actual police force. Their juristiction is the campus itself. So they aren't rent-a-cops, they're the real thing.

I think the distiction is this: Yes, he was *technically* resisting by failing to cooperate, but it's worlds apart from violently attacking officers or other students or damaging property. In that case, force would have been viable.

It seems like they could have just cuffed him and taken him away more tactfully. Hell, my other roommate was arrested just for standing around while police were arresting other people. He wasn't tased, beaten, or anything. They just cuffed him and tossed him in the car. Simple. Why was this drama queen given so much stage time?

And whether campus cops are real or not, I can tell you from experience that they are a little too big for their britches. They're bored and hence jump on an opportunity to get tactical.

No, I don't think it's okay to taser a student for not having his ID card. I would agree with you if the student hadn't been asked to leave numerous times prior to being tasered and/or if he wasn't given a chance to leave before being tasered. But the fact is that he had ample opportunity to leave the premises as he was told yet he refused.

You're on private property, you refuse to produce some form of identification and you refuse to leave when asked. Is it any wonder why he was tasered?

You are incorrect.

He was already on his way out. I guess you missed that part. He may have refused to leave when asked the first time, but after they left he gathered his shit and was headed out. Whether or not he refused to begin with is immaterial when the point of the situation is he was on his way out when grabbed. Your argument is that he refused to leave, period. That is incorrect.

EDIT: Having watched the video, i'm surprised the students didn't mob rush the 5 cops. There had to be at least 30 or 40 there. Though at that rate, they were probably afraid those hotheads would have started shooting. I have nothing but respect, in general, for police- but people should not be cops, period.

infinite loser: tell me that you are playing devil's advocate in this thread...

i have spent the a significant chunk of my life doing research work (you know, sometimes looking for stuff for research, sometimes researching books that look like they'd be fun, often alot of both) in academic libraries. i have seen lots of rent-a-cops wandering around asking students for their ids because their feet were on the furniture. i have seen things get a little testy and i have seen the campus cops get called in in some cases. in most cases, the campus cops have acted reasonably--this situation would have been nothing at all had the cops acted reasonably--check the kids identity against their own databases or with the library's circulation system--give him some annoying ticket for spacing out the id and that's the end of it. that would be the reasonable way to deal with this. but i have seen some campus cops be assholes---some university cops just resent the hell out of the students--and there is a way in which i understand that because i teach the same students--they can be really officious little jerks---BUT i have seen both types of scenarios unfold numerous times in a situation where the rules were THE SAME as at ucla. these rules are THE SAME in most urban university libraries, particularly after say 10 or 11 pm. the choice of how to treat these situations then rests with the cops. they could have approached the kid any number of ways.
they had choices about how to handle this--and they obviously made a really really bad choice in this case---there really is nothing you or anyone else can say that would justify using a fucking taser on a college student because he forgot his id card. nothing at all. so there is maybe no point in continuing the conversation, because fundamentally, it no longer is one.

I heard the kid had a mental problem. Don't know if that changes anything but I would feel more guilty if I just tazered someone with a mental problem 7 times...

you forgot the other side of the argument... There are 2 different stories on what happened. Either way, he still broke the law. He did not leave when he was asked to; the police were called to apprehend him for breaking the law. He resisted arrest, and he was tasered... he should have left when asked; he was an idiot and did not.


http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf...r_Policies.pdf

Ok, I've been resisting this for awhile. I am a student at UCLA and rather well informed on the matter. I have two friends that were at the library when it happened.

First off, there was a stabbing on campus a few weeks ago, high noon by a person (who was not a student but "looked" like one, backpack, young, etc.). we've always had security issues on our campus by non-students, especially at night. In fact, one of the paths from campus to the dorms is named "the Rape Trail". So in light of this background, the campus police have a policy of checking ids etc as a matter of security. Our students routinely set couches on fire during finals week (not exactly safe behavir). The campus police certainly have their hands full, not to mention the serial rapist and serial killer we had a few years back.

The problem arose whe one of the officers put their hand on his arm to escort him out (not exactly unreasonable) and then he proceeded to flip out by screaming "don't touch me!!!". In short, he was not cooperating by any stretch of the imagination. This kid could have definitely posed some kind of threat, we don't know it at the time.

I am happy this kind of bad student element was removed from the premises and hopefully he will be suspended or something so that the rest of us don;t have to endure this type of asinine behavior.

By the way, there were 3 cops (blaqck, hisanic and Asian). Charges of racism are patently ridiculous here.

One more thing, the circumstances are not clear yet, if his story is completely true, he was leaving, he was not resisting, he gave them cookies and pie and complemented them on there beautiful eyes... the cops over reacted. If the opposite is true, he was armed with 3 assault rifles and a grenade, the cops under reacted. Bottom line the truth is somewhere in between. And until hard evidence comes out on what happened, no one knows.

Not that it matters, or has anything to do with race, but you've not accounted for the other 2 cops, both of whom were white (and clearly seen on the video). There were a total of 5 cops.

It's a student's duty to carry his or her identification at all times. It's not the job of campus security to run checks on persons who don't have or refuse to hand over their identification. The entire situation could have been avoided if the guy would have just left as he was told (Certainly someone who goes to the school must know to carry his ID at all times?)-- Not at his leisure.

Keith Olbermann has interviewed the student's attorney (surprise). There are a number of new pieces of information that may or may not change your opinion of what happened.


Olbermann

We shouldn't award people for being dumbasses. That's my opinion.

I'd just like to say that I laughed my ass off when the attorney said he lives in New York, but works in LA, and that he "commutes".

First of all, a police force that is "very busy" should be more diligent, not more physical. The biggest string of rapes and murders doesn't give them automatic rights to excessive uses of force in dealing with individuals. It gives them a greater need and responsibility to be more observant, more cautious, and more prepared. None of those qualities factor into tasing an unarmed, passive resistor.

You can't disregard the notion of racial profiling just because 3 of the police officers are black, Asian, and hispanic... when the suspect is middle-eastern. People of all races in America have taken to the irrational fear and suspicion of people who look even remotely middle-eastern, not just the white folks.

I'm not suggesting it was racially motivated, but if they picked him out of all the students around him, and he did in fact ask that they check a few more people so he wouldn't feel singled out, then I have to wonder if he was, in fact, intentionally profiled.

the lawyer was ill informed, a taser is not dangerous to a pacemaker at all:
http://www.taser.com/self_defense/faqs.htm#3

and that's with the barbs, not with the leads.

A student does not have to carry his/her id at all times. What kind of crap is that? What if you're out for a jog, or you step out to get some crap out of your car?

Bottom line - the notion that a student who wasn't cooperative with campus police when they asked him to leave a library deserves to be tasered multiple times is just asinine.

jorgelito: are you saying that because you've had some violent crime around campus, that means that police should have carte blanche to put down non-cooperative behavior as they see fit?

I pulled this out of Cyn's list - the rest was irrelevant to this situation, as far as I can see:
I don't think I've seen anyone say that campus police can't ask for ID - is the repercussions that are being disputed. This shit was just abusive, plain and simple. This kid is going to settle out of court, and any affect on UCLA is more than likely going to be negative from a PR standpoint.

The eyewitnesses say he was leaving, the cops, who stand to face some pretty bad consequences, say he was refusing. I tend to believe the people who have nothing to gain over those whose view of a situation will keep them from getting fired and facing civil action, particularly when there is reason to wonder about who to trust.

Had there been one middle-eastern cop in that bunch then racial profiling might not be an issue, but anytime you talk about a middle eastern person these days you have to wonder, did he really do something, or was he profiled?

I hear him, on the video saying that he's leaving, I hear him say, "just take your hands off of me" I see no reason this could not have been resolved peacefully by the cops just removing their hands and letting him leave while they followed. If they were really concerned they could even have kept the tazers at the ready, but did they HAVE to have their hands on him? Is there some kind of policy that says that if the police are called they must be in physical contact with the student?

I do wonder, did the campus authorities check anyone else's id?

As roach pointed out - this whole discussion is a huge case of a false dilemna. The idea that either the cops had to essentially do nothing....OR they just had to taser the shit out of this guy - one or the other - is just bullshit. These situations are handled, and have been handled for a long time on campuses, with way more diplomacy. I really can't believe people are essentially saying that because this kid may not moved fast enough - or SHOCK!!! - he may have blatantly gone against the university cops demands / security guards demands - that he should have been electrically shocked multiple times...all because he forgot his ID? That's just fucked up.

edit: stupid crappy browser. sorry for putting you in the sandwich. ;)

Once again, being tasered is absolutely no big deal-- Certainly not what he made it out to be. First of all, the cops have every right to forcibly remove someone from private property if they feel they have a legitimate reason to do so. I believe this'll be the third (Or is it the fourth?) time I've asked this question, but what would you have had the cops do given the situation? All I see are accusations but, as yet, no one has produced an alternative resolution which could have been used. Second of all, some people fail to realize that this entire situation could have been avoided if the student would have left when asked instead of being a deuchebag about it. Sorry, but people shouldn't be rewarded for idiocy.

The thing is that the cops had no way of knowing if the student was a danger or not. His failure to reveal his identity coupled with the fact that he was extremely insubordinate led to him being eventually tasered. Yeah. He got what was coming to him, plain and simple.

When driving to and from work I sometimes get stopped by the cops from time to time for no real reason. What do you think would happen to me if I refused to hand over any ID because I feel as if I'm being racially profiled or if I failed to comply with what the cop says (Up to a reasonable point, of course)? So why is it any different for this student?

Ah, I did not know that, I thought there were 3 cops.

The race issue came up in school so I may have gotten our discussions crossed (people were claiming racism even though the kid is white (but Persian/Iranian name).

Piglet: not the funnest sandwich ever, but hey, not a bad one either :D.

Infinite Loser:

That would be an alternative resolution.

Sorry, that would have meant the cops couldn't play with their toys until the kid actually DID something. What a shame that would have been.

First, the kid does not "look middle eastern". They did check IDs of people in the library. They even announced they were going to do so so he had warning. The charges of profiling and racism are ridiculous in this case, especially at UCLA where the majority student population is non-white. Profiling simply wouldn't make sense, nor would it be efficient. Besides, previous suspects in various crimes on campus have been white, Asian and black (if you're gonna profile, profile those groups but it's still inefficient). If he had his ID, this wouldn't have happened. If he had cooperated in the first place (with the CSOs then the UCPD) this wouldn't have happened. Someone refusing to cooperate certainly warrants alarm or suspicion. We require school IDs on campus for a reason. One of the rapes occured when a non-student got into one of the dorms (which require IDs for entry - apparently the person in front of them held the door open).

Secondly, Analog, I understand your point of the physical force, but I am trying to establish a back drop of why there is so much concern with IDs etc. (not necessarily justifying force, just showing why security is tight). The library is a high traffic area and I've bumped into many "unsavory characters" lurking around. The library is the highest incident of theft location. Asking for and checking IDs is very reasonable.

Whether or not excessive force was used will be borne out of the investigation. Witness accounts at this time are contradictory. SOme say he was leaving, others say he was resisting. In any event, it is very unwise to be uncooperative with the authorities.

On another note, what do you guys think the UCPD should have done? The kid refused to cooperate remember. In the given scenarios, it was instigated by the kid. If he was on his way out, then he shouldn't have freaked out when they escorted him (this is pretty standard, security always escorts you out). If he wasn't complying, then what should they have done? Drag him?

Pig, no I am definitely not advocating for carte blanche for the cops but at the same time, I am not automatically condemning the cops either. Someone else said it; the truth is somewhere in between, we have to wait and see. I don't think anyone is really advocating for tasering per se, but rather more saying that the kid was in the wrong in the first place. It's not so much that he didn't have his ID (and it's pretty dumb not to carry your ID on campus as you need it to do just about anything - swipe in the cafeteria, library access, fitness center, bus rides etc). And then to make matters worse, he was very uncooperative and that's not cool at all. I don't really know if taser was excessive (not without the complete facts), but my first reaction is yeah, WTF? sounds crazy. But then, what should the UCPD have done then? I would have thought that they would have just carried him out (but I guess I can see how that would pose a threat by kicking and screaming etc.

*add* You know, I think there are 2-3 other videos out there from different angles, but so far, I couldn't see what was happening when he said "Don't touch me!" and started screaming profanities. But I am guessing that he must have made some sort of resistance or combative action to warrant any type of force. I would have assumed that the cops escorted him out but the altercation seemed to have began with the whole "Don't touch me!" screeaming profanities sequence.

Any TFPr's have police or security experience that can shed some light on procedure or the law in terms of defining assault or resistance etc? I thought that screaming profanities at a cop was considered assault maybe? (or something like that). In other words, there has to be a trigger for the tasering, it can't be just out of the blue. I think one of the cops mentioned that they tasered because they didn't want to use a baton.

*add* I just watched the video again. It sounds like after he started screaming "don't touch me!" the cops reply "stand up". I'm guessing he must have sat right down or something like that which means he wasn't leaving or complying anymore. The kid then shouts some profanities at the cops and in a calm voice delivers a monologue. All throughout, the kid does not cooperate at all. He claims he will leave but then just sits there and tells the cops to "fuck off" or "you motherfuckers". In the end, they had to drag him out (he still wasn't cooperating). Maybe they just should have done that in the first place.

Damn, I wish we had the other videos to see. My friends said it was a complete circus at the library. The campus is pretty divided now.

That is from rule #3. What was 'reasonable cause' to ask for presentation of ID?

It is after hours at the library. There are clear signs everywhere saying that after hours, the library is only accessible to students with ID. They even made an announcement before hand that the CSOs would begin to go around and check IDs.

I'll only say this: I've watched the video. There's a LOT you don't see in it. It's he-said-she-said about how the whole incident started, and if it wasn't for a very dramatic-looking piece of footage, it would be a non-story.

One thing it certain: the campus cops need training in diplomacy and conflict resolution. Even if it started the way they said, it didn't need to end the way it ended.

Maybe it's just my mood speaking tonight but I can't help but remember how many UC students (and I was once a UC student) seem to behave as if basic legal protocol shouldn't apply to them.

Since I wasn't there I can't comment on whether or not the use of force was excessive but the guy did not have his ID and did not leave voluntarily.

?????

the school regulations clearly state that you may be asked to ID yourself at any time.

This is true at a lot of universities. I think its important to note that he didn't get tased for not having his ID as is sometimes insinuated. Rather he got tazed for not complying with the officers demands.

I was always told to comply with a law enforcement officer at all times. If you feel what they are asking is unlawful- then you appeal later.

If they "removed" him by force, is there any doubt in your mind he would have gone after them for injuries? Buises, etc. I seem to recall Michael Jacksons shoulder injury as the result of being put in handcuffs. If they so much as bruised him they would be dammed for not using the tools they are given designed to force compliance.

To be honest though I am a little unsure of the timeline. Correct me if im wrong but it goes like this.

He shows up- asked to show ID- refused crying racism.
He used computers to finish a paper.
As he was about to leave campus security shows up.
He says he is leaving.
They ask him to stop. He goes limp to protest and refuses to come with them.

Is that about right?
If so then their stopping him was totally justified. If he broke a university rule- ie failed to show ID- then the fact that he was leaving is moot- he broke a rule. From what I understand library staff asked him to show an ID and he refused - at that time he could have left without an alteraction (still breaking the rules however).

Its like trespassing- it doesnt matter if you will leave when the cops show up - when they get there - they are going to investigate.

Yes, being tasered is "no biggie." I mean, that's why they use it to temporarily incapacitate non-compliant suspects, or to put them back in line (on the low-dose prong setting). Its like a cool wiff of Aqua Blue Velva, without all the annoying green color. I'm thinking of getting one for the home, for those times when I just don't have time for coffee. I don't know why all these people are acting like the cops "did something." They clearly did nothing, constituted of tasing the everloving shit out of this kid about five times. What other recourse could there have been? Hmmmm...I don't know. They could have let him leave, and simply remained to escort him. That would have been tough. Usually when a kid is dicking around in a situation like this (assuming that's what was happening) its because they want attention. They're busy rebelling against society in pretty useless fashions. This is a lot of what college is about. Challenge what you've been taught. Challenge authority. So this kind of attitude is frequently encouraged or tolerated at many schools, but that's a little bit non-sequitur. In any case, if this kid was lolly-gagging on the way out, the worst thing the cops could do is what they did. They just justified all the crap the kid did. They gave him what he wanted, to the tune of a few hundred thousand dollars before its all said and done...minimum.

Dilbert

Note that 1. the rules say you have to identify yourself, not that you have to carry identification. Same for the rules that Cyn pointed out. That can be interpretted as you have to actually answer the authorities if they ask you "who are you, what are you doing here?" It doesn't mean you have to have a UCSB barcode imprinted on your pecker at all times on campus.

To me, its not clear that this kid was actually doing anything "wrong," other than perhaps not going fast enough. I don't know that that's actually a requirement, incidentally. In the worst case that everything said about this no-good low-down non-compliant sumbitch is true, the way the cops handled this only made it worse.

jorgelito: if you're worried about the kid getting a bruised elbow from being escorted out, tasering him 5 times in front of a large crowd full of camera phones isn't really a "smart" thing to do.

Anyone have a link to the rules on campus that failure to comply with school rules and/or the directions of campus authorities in a timely manner results in tasering, with additional helpings if non-compliance continues? I bet this kid, nor his parents, were made aware of such a policy. The notion that somehow this treatment follows in sort of logical fashion from the "but he broke some rules" statement is unjustifiable to me.

Once again, this could have turned out very badly for a couple of campus policeman, who apparently don't have much training in conflict resolution and diplomacy.

While I didn't read all of the above comments I would like to put in a cops perspective....from what I heard on the video he was refusing to identify himself on a private campus where an ID was probably required to use the computers, then he refused to leave and when the police showed up to escort him out he begins flailing and resisting which is active aggression which MORE than constitutes the use of a tazer which is non-lethal even to those who have a medical condition. So this should be a warning to those ignorant college kids who have a problem with any sort of authority and think they can just do what they please when they please. The Officers were well within their rights to taze him for the safety of themselevs as well as those on campus.

I get the idea Kalibah that your timeline is pretty much the way it happened, except now the cops are saying that he WASN'T leaving, but the witnesses are saying that he was.

The consequence of breaking the rule says that he will be asked to leave, not that he will be tazered. If the goal was to get him out of the library, this was not a necessary way to do it. It seems like anyone that thinks this was an acceptable response are basically saying, "the kid was an arsehole and deserved this."

The problem with that is that in this nation people are supposed to go before a jury and be found to be guilty of a crime, and then sentenced to a REASONABLE punishment BEFORE the punishment takes place. The police, other students, librarians, teachers, etc. are not supposed to be allowed to meet out punishments without due process.

If they were just trying to get the guy out, and he was already leaving, and his first real fit, not just inaction, but real honest fit, was when he demanded the cops not touch him, then the whole thing could have been avoided by the cops NOT TOUCHING HIM.

Again I ask, is there some policy I'm unaware of that says that the cops MUST have their hands physically on the guy? If not then the only reason these cops had for refusing to get their hands off of him was that they were the cops, he was the 'bad guy' and by George they were gonna make him do whatever they said, how they said, and by the means that they said.

From what I could see of the videos the kid was protesting the cops putting their hands on him, not the library rules. He was refusing to comply with the library rules, but not protesting them.

This reaction went against the goal. The goal was to get this kid out of the library, unless I missed something big somewhere? From what I read of the rules failure to comply could result in refusal to be allowed into the library. I don't recall tazering being one of the consequences mentioned.

Seems like if they let the guy leave and, once outside, the police had checked the kid out to verify his name and such, the library then could have followed its OWN POSTED REGULATIONS AND CONSEQUENCES and banned the guy from coming back in again, for failure to follow the rules.

This would have been appropriate and would have had the added benifit of following the regulations that were part of the school.

The cops touching him was probably to gain compliance due to the fact that he wasen't moving till they were able to gain control of him. From the point, just like a little kid mad for not getting a new toy he went limp and refused STILL to leave....and as soon as he became a risk, the tazing became justified.....and just a heads up for pigglet as far as I know there are no "dose settings" on tazers, and the tazer can be used as many times as necessary to gain compliance. While the college students may have one story, that video actually showed the truth, the police asked him multiple times to stand up to leave in which he continually ignored the command and screamed and yelled trying to incite a riot among the students, and was presenting a safety concern.....

Hey, I was just reacting to the comments by dilbert above, who used to set up the tasers for his college - when he said you've prong tasing, which is the lite version, and full on cable in your ass heavy duty tasing. And if some assholes, cops or otherwise, were simulataneously tasering me, and saying "stand up, stand up...you're making us look bad...i wouldn't cooperate at that point either, unless it was make a lunge to deliver a mighty cockpunch to one of these guys. As has been pointed out, where exactly does it state that a student not complying with ID rules or library rules shall be tasered?

non-compliance is a 'risk' to officer safety? Is that anything like the washington state sheriff applying pepper spray in the eyes of protesters who'd linked their hands together inside PVC pipes? For officer safety?

we're quickly sliding down the slope to where if YOU, as a non-authority, don't do WHAT you're told, WHEN you're told, and HOW you're told to do it, you get zapped or maced. This attitude is insane.

No but trying to incite a riot is officer safety, and non compliance and refusal to obey a command is always a safety risk.

The dangers of the non compliant:

The true non compliant is no real danger, the danger comes from the combative feigning as a non compliant. As the police move in to drag his limp body, he could lash out, with a fist, or a knife, injuring or killing a cop. as pigglet put it:
People like you are the reason they tasered him. Because cops are afraid of getting hurt for just asking some questions. Anyone try thinking this through from the cop’s point of view? You get a call, there’s some ass hat in the library that was asked for ID, refused and then refused to leave. You show up, and you see him walking towards the exit (or sitting at a desk). You need to talk with him, to find out if he’s just some student who forgot there ID, or some rapist / serial killer / douche bag who shouldn’t be there. You approach and place you hand on his shoulder to stop him and question him. Maybe you wanted to be quiet in a library so you don’t yell ‘we want to talk with you’. As soon as you touch him, he screams and goes limp. Why did he go limp, is he just an ass hat, or is he going for a weapon. You ask him to get up, he screams, instead of getting close and getting cockpunched or worse you give him a jolt, he screams even louder, a crowed begins to gather, and the situation is getting out of your hands, a riot could start placing you in serious jeopardy. Some other students are getting antsy, yelling at you the situation is going down hill you threaten them to make sure they don’t interfere; he needs to be removed to diffuse the situation. He still won’t get up and you don’t want to be cockpunched. Tasered again, and again until he complies or you can get enough guys on him to completely control him and drag him so he can’t cockpunch anyone.

He could have solved everything, by saying 'please don’t touch me, I am leaving right now, do you guys need to talk with me, or can I leave.

This is being made into a bigger issue then it is. There is police brutality, and it’s horrible, but this is not it. If you get combative with a cop, expect to get hurt. If you feel like you were wrongly treated by a cop, get there badge number, and file a report if the report did nothing, call your mayor, senator someone higher up. Eventually it will be taken care of, and if you were wronged, it will be straitened out.

Ignorant assholes like this (quoted from youtube comments) are why cops have to act the way they do. They may have been able to handle it better but maybe not. It sounded a lot like a setup or deliberate provocation of the cops. And while the cops may have been able to handle it more gently that student got what he deserved, and the crowd should have been maced for pressing in.

I really wish I could send all these ignorant police haters to their own society, where they would promptly tear themselves apart.

1. generally speaking, libraries that actually stick to the official policies regarding ids (in reality this is far more flexible than the paper rules make it appear to be) have some kind of gate at the entrance--to get in at all you need a university id.
you can pass through them if you have another form of id, but not if you dont.
usually, the desk folk give you a proxy id when you enter the library.
and there are generally time parameters to this--for example, the main library at penn gave non-penn folk considerably more trouble on the weekends and after 9 pm than at other times if they wanted access to the library.

i do not know the particulars about getting access to this library, but it seems to me that the whole situation--all of it--was tripped by the decision to let this student in without an id.
if what he showed at the entrance was adequate to gain entry, then what unfolded inside begins to look more like harrassment--arguably more like harrassment--that was triggered by the carding policies that govern computer lab usage.
but the fact is that in this case, the concern is not and was not security.
it was turnover management in the computer lab.
the security issue was resolved when this student got access.

the same student, under the same logic, could have been reading in the stacks and would have consitituted no "security" concern.

so the whole "security" argument seems to me to be moot.

1a. i have to say that the element of this whole farce that really bugs me is that is happened in a library.
i do not think that the private property arguments advanced in this thread over and over should simply apply to university libraries--they are repositories of information of a quality that far exceeds those of even very good public libraries. (for myself, i have been spoiled by these resources--their value really cannot be overstated)--and as repsitories of information, these private spaces have a necessary public function and the spaces a necessarily public dimension.
a library cannot and should not be a fortress.
they should not be about preventing public access to information.

to go further would be a digression in this context, because the fact of the matter is that the kid was a student.
period.


2. many urban campuses have border trouble like that jorgelito described as happening at ucla. this does not constitute a state of emergency and in no way justifies police actions in this particular case.

3. usmc's posts are interesting, but they also seem to me to demonstrate the case i was making earlier: once the cops found themselves faced with a situation that it seems to me their own approach generated, what happened followed in a more or less straight line. the problem was the approach itself.

4. i had read about the charges of racism that surround this whole thing. i was not sure what to make of them, and so left them to the side. i dont think the perception the student had is in any way altered by referencing the skin color of the cops involved. but that is as far as i feel like i can go with this.

Update:

http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf...2011-15-06.pdf

people crack me up. So many people think that when police abuse their powers, it's just a single incident, or that there are always a 'few bad apples', but let a regular citizen turn out to be a bad seed and EVERYBODY is an asshat police hater. what a joke.

Not that I put too much stock in department issued reports, I have to wonder why the police just didn't cuff him when he went limp, then lift his dumb ass up and walk him out? Could it be that they wanted to jack him up with a taser to 'force' him to comply to their orders?

roachboy, I don’t attend cal poly, but I do use the library every once in a while, I’ve never been asked for ID at the gate. And I’ve never been challenged inside, but I have seen it. They may not have the staff to constantly have some one at the front taking ID, it may be easier for them to have some one walking the inside watching for idiots, and asking for ID.

About the racism; I doubt there was any racism involved in the cops actions they were asked to remove him, they did not chose him, whether or not he was singled out from the guy checking ID remains to be seen, but i doubt it can be proven.


That’s why we have independent investigations, there are bad apples out there, and bad apples do spoil the bunch, but we have people with video cameras watching them, and if they do act inappropriately, they will be removed and punished.


Or because he could still be dangerous when he was limp; see my previous post. Or if you want to see how fast I can draw my knife and stab when I’m on the ground, come on over.

There was no racism, the student is white.

When I was at Georgetown, the security was even more strict than at UCLA, same with the Library of Congress. Campus security is an issue. Just think, if this person had hurt someone at the library then people would be screaming why didn't anyone check id. Especially since someone got stabbed in front of the library a few weeks ago.

Piggy, the person was uncooperative and refused to comply with an officers orders. I wonder if he would have behaved the same way at an airport.

I was referring to what happened after they repeatedly tasered him, and still sat there saying "stand up. stand up." taser. "stand up, stand up". taser. that doesn't exactly inspire the desire to cooperate - and were it I, I do believe I would be a little perturbed. Mildly pieved. In such situations, one does always make rational, coherent responses to things like being tasered. I fear, I might have acted in a physical manner in self defense, as I would have been in the process of being tasered.

Notably different than the approach appropriate from both sides before the situation got out of hand. Ergo, I'm not advocating or sympathizing with random cockpunch distribution as a response to interactions with law enforcement. I've dealt with tons of cops in my days, and have yet to pull out a solitary bagsmash, or any other physical issue. But then again, I've never been surrounded by five of them tasering the shit out of me. So I can kind of see how someone in that situation might have such a response. I mean I know it sounds crazy, but I think its plausible...you know, just maybe. And all this kid did is go limp!!!. No cockpunches. Just went limp!!! Crap, that's an extra two taserings for being a pussy.

Yes, once again - how could they possibly have handled this without the taser? See, I sort of expect college kids to be jackasses. Cops are supposed to be above such behavior...or don't be a damn cop. Its justifications like yours that make people think all cops are powerhungry labotomized assholes, and that's just not the case. Shitheads like this ruin the rep of good cops that do make intelligent choices when handling these types of situations. These guys felt threatened by the crowd, so obviously keep tasering the shit out of this kid...that'll calm them down. And then a bunch of people throw up their hands and say "Well shit, what else could possibly be done? The kid could have had a dirty bomb in his back pocket? He might have had a gremlin and a glass of water...it was almost midnight afterall? How do you know he wasn't the spawn of fucking Satan?" The fact is, he had shown no actual "violence" as far as I can see, only a failure to comply as fast as the cops would have liked. Inappropriate response to the situation.

edit I realize that he refused to cooperate, at least after they got on him as he was leaving (at least by many of the accounts of this thing). I don't know if he would have behaved like that in an airport, but he wasn't in an airport. I realize I'm being a smartass in a lot of responses, and I know you generally try to play it nice with everyone - so take my tone as a bit of personal style - but I stand behind my points. What I can't understand is that people are condoning the use of a taser device to compell cooperation from a college student who was in the library (or elsewhere on campus) without his ID. Yes, he might have been a rapist. Yes, he might have had a knife. Yes, he might have been Damien. But there was a pretty good chance he was a student working on a term paper in the library. So instead of a benefit of the doubt, the police get to taser his ass because it doesn't leave marks like a baton or a leather strap would, and he could have been almost anyone or anything!!!!.

To me, that just doesn't make sense.

5 times may have been excessive, we don't know everything that happened. My main point is that it may have been justified, and instead of going 'it looks excessive, everybody panic. Let’s sit back and let the system work. I hope they give all 5 desk jobs at the least for the next month until the investigation is done.

the kid was looking for a fight, he was looking to cause trouble, yes slapping cuffs on him would have solved the issue, but getting close to a suspect on the ground is dangerous, his arms where near his sides, not out stretched like suspects are usually ordered to do. Furthermore, I don’t think the cops wanted to take him out in hand cuffs, it looks bad for the person being lead out, they probably just wanted to talk with him and make sure he was not a threat, they may have even been able to verify his identity and let him stay, we will never know. Instead of just talking with the cops, he caused a scene and tried to incite others to join him. The cops were right to put a stop to it.

More technical notes, in the video you hear the taser a lot, but its not being used all that time. Listen to it, when the volume gets lower its being used, there was a few times when it was on for a few seconds but only used for half a second, when it is discharged into the open air, it crackles very loudly, when it is used on some one, it still crackles but not as loud, its muffled. The drive setting, through clothing is not that powerful, I had the drive setting directly on my skin, I have 2 tiny little scars from where the skin 'boiled', still, it was not painful and after it was off, I had complete control of my body, albeit with a huge serge of adrenalin.

1.
i sense hysteria in this.
again--the sad reality is that every urban university has boundary problems, every urban university has occaisonal violence because, to one extent or another, it seems that every urban university is something of a flashpoint in the ambient class war that characterizes much of the actual life of being-in-the-states that--like everything of any importance--unfolds beneath the venner provided by television. so again, i do not see anything particular about the immediate conditions that obtained at ucla, and certainly nothing that excuses anyone involved with this sorry situation.

2.
nor do i see anything beyond a kind of routine harrassment involved in ths cimputer lab that is at the center of this. harrassment in the sense that having a work-study student come by every hour and a half to check your id again is not about anything beyond reminding you that a discrete duration has elapsed and following on that to provide that work study with a time-index that can be used to nudge students off the terminals if others are waiting. THAT is the primary function of these carding routines. the security function is a sales function.
again, beyond the above, there IS NO meaningful function to this kind of carding.
the question of status is resolved by the fact that the student is logged on--which presupposes that he or she has a valid id and pin number.

3.
the question of racism is not a simple fuction of skin color--geez---in the states since 2001--and by extension since 1979 (with reference to iran) you have sustained mechanisms of exclusion/racism directed against persian and arab students who, from the simple-minded viewpoint informed by skin tone, would be categorized as white. i know many folk who fall into these categories who have had significant aspects of their lives impacted by these mechanisms, and the apparent fact that for folk who have not been subjected to them these mechanisms do not appear to exist says nothing about the mechanisms and everything about the viewpoint of the observer.

but (again) i do not feel like i can say more about this particular situation except to say that the kind of arguments being advanced by jorgelito against the notion of racism being a factor at one level or another seem to me to be beside the point.

but it gets tricky here, because once you shift away from general mechanisms into individual perceptions based one way or another on experiences shaped by them--who gets to determine what is and is not a legitimate occasion for activating such experience or using it to determine what action is or is not racist?
what kind of criteria can one bring to bear from the outside to make a coherent judgment about such situations?
does one necessarily have to accept every perception concerning every situation that is taken or described as involving racism?
if there are problems at that level, does it follow that one should simply invert the above and dismiss all such situations?
what role does skin color in the end play here?

it all seems terribly simple-minded to me to revert to skin color as if that was a determinate criterion--it seems to rest on the assumption that there is only one type of racism in america--which seems pollyanna to me in that americans are often virtuosii in this department. particularly in these sorry times, within which the outmoded notion of "nation" is being propped up with sacrificial narratives that turn entirely on racist assumptions.

but does all this mean that you are simply presented with apparently undecidable situations in every such case?

maybe one asnwer is that you need to know the details.
and i dont.
so there we are.

but that doesn't obviate the general questions/problems.

All I can think when I watch that video is "what a spoiled bitch" I'm not sure if that kid is spoiled but he sure acts like it. I know anyone that screams "don't touch me" like that is definetly a bitch. The police were'nt asking that idiot to do anything they should not have been. He was being stupid just laying there. If the cops had a reason for not just dragging him out then they were in the right tasering him. If they could have just dragged him out I think they should have. If it was me though I don't know if I could have held back from hurting that kid just the tone of his voice pisses me off.

Now that is comedy. The only reason this even has a possibility of being "taken care of" is that it was (mostly) captured on film. But even that is not a guarantee - remember Rodney King?

That's an interesting way of going about it, then.

I think that for purposes of online discussion, this situation is far more interesting in a general context. What actions are appropriate in such a situation? As roach, dilbert and others have pointed out, we don't have a lot of details here, and I expect that will be resolved at the campus level. Hopefully so - frankly, I don't think there's any way to sweep this one under the rug at this point. Lawsuits and cameraphone footage abound. I guess my position is that unless a person actually shows a propensity to violence in such a situation, that the use of a device such as a taser is an inappropriate response. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, dilbert, but I'm surmising from your statements thus far you would advocate a "better safe than sorry" approach, leaning to the personal safety of the law enforcement. I can understand this approach, and would agree with it to an extent. I'm just not seeing compelling reason for the lengths that were employed here.

I also think that roach brings up an interesting point: namely, to what extent is this situation a reflection of our social attitudes? How is it shaped by the specter of fear in the name of security that seems pandemic in our society? As far as the racism issue, what extend is the social mindset defined by fear of the "other," and does that have any play in this situation?

Hmmm...regardless, if you catch me without an ID somewhere dilbert, just give me a chance to get my shit together and break out before taserage ensures ;)

In a tangential thought, this reminds me of when I used to play a lot of intramural soccer matches. We were always required to have ID to prove we were a student, and not an outside ringer. I can think of several times I forgot my ID, and I'd frequently go over to my bag to dig around for it. Its pretty routine for the players and refs (frequently you "know" each other, and sometimes its a real love/hate situation) giving each other huge amounts of shit during such situations, and during matches, and after...and in the bars the next night, and so forth. Would those guys have the need for such practices? I mean, it would be a whole lot easier for me to stash a weapon in my bag, and in fact I usually carry a knife to cut off the tape I use to hold up my shinguards/keep my socks up. I can't imagine it would go over too well for campus police to be using such tactics on a player who didn't leave the field quickly enough after being carded out, or who didn't bring an ID to the field. You're definately on school ground, and you definately are in a more dangerous environment...via pure adrenaline rush if nothing else.

Regardless, interesting situation. I felt a little sick watching the video.

I would definitely say better safe then sorry, I’d rather have some guy tasered then a cop stabbed, especially because a taser causes no real lasting results, they have an extremely low mortality and injury rate, there was more risk from dragging him out then having him tasered and walking out on his own.. That being said, the taser may not have been necessary. A lot of things are still not known. Was this on the first floor, or would the officers had to drag him down 5 flights of stairs, risking injury to both the officers and the guy? Was he going to stay limp, or start thrashing around.

And pigglet, the issue was not having ID, it was refusing to leave because he had no ID. if I go to a bar, and forget my ID, and I get carded, I’ll be asked to leave, or they may just call the cops, if I tell them to screw themselves and stay, I’m asking for trouble.

The issue of not having ID was security based, it was late, and there are predators out there, he could have been a stalker, or rapist watching for a target. All he had to do was leaving, or talk to the cops to show he was not a threat; he overreacted and caused a scene. It could have been handled better, but it was not over the line; its better then mace, and better then a club.

If I'm pulled over by the cops and not only refuse to show any ID but refuse to follow orders, what do you think is going to happen to me? Even if I pose no threat at all, my actions warrant suspicion on part of the cop and will most likely get me subdued in some fashion.

Rules aren't made to be broken. You don't have to agree with them, but you do have to follow them whether you like them or not. Even if he felt as if he was being unfairly profiled, he should have still complied with what the library staff and cops told him to and waited until after the fact to file a complaint. Also, the fact that he was in the process of leaving doesn't matter. He was told to produce some form of ID or leave the premises immediately. He did neither. Therefore he was tresspassing and subject to being removed forcefully as per the law.

But with the taser vs. stabbing - isn't that a false hypothetical? I mean, there's no evidence he had a knife. I don't see any violent behavior described that would make this that type of confrontation. I guess I don't understand where that supposition comes from - although I agree I'd rather have one person tased than one person stabbed, regardless of who the tasee and stabee would have been.

I guess this one of those places where the details will shake out. Some say he was leaving, some say he wasn't. If he wasn't leaving, why use something that incapacitates...doesn't that make it harder to leave? I didn't see evidence of a stand off in this stuff - but a situation where he didn't actually start to leave until the cops show up. I'd think that happens all the time. As someone mentioned, is there actually any evidence to this guy having mental problems or something? Something just isn't adding up - I'll give you that.

I kind of think that using the cuffs might have been better from a pr perspective...even if you put the taser on a setting equivalent to a calf massage, its going to look bad in front of a bunch of students in a crowd at a university. What is the reaction of the alumus / parents to all of this?

I can certainly understand the need for ID's - that seems to have been the impetus for this situation, and if there is any actual race/ethnicity based selection criteria, perhaps a cover for discrimination (not saying that happened, but it is interesting...were other students asked to leave as well? Was he the only person in the library without an ID?). Was the guy showing any other signs of interest? Were other patrons uncomfortable around him based on his behavior or whatnot, and this provided a screen to remove a disruption? There's just a lot of things that we don't know. I've just been in and around schools for a long time, and I've never seen an ID policy or student removal from premises handled this way, nor have I heard about it - but that's anecdotal evidence. It'll shake out at this point, with all the coverage.

Never mind

Let me clean up my analogy, I’d rather have 100 people tasered than one cop stabbed, he most likely had no knife, or any weapon but his fists, but getting close to anyone that just yelled 'get your hands off me' is dangerous.

I read on a few other boards that his friends say he is confrontational, and his myspace page (prior to the incident) promoted civil disobedience and fighting authority for no reason.

Dilbert, can you link it for us? I think it is very interesting, that may undermine his case a bit.

I’m looking; here are screen shots of his facebook page
http://forums.ratedesi.com/showpost....4&postcount=12

Favorite quote: "that hurts stop it"
And he is talking about feeling like Dr. jeckle and Mr. Hyde, having a midlife crisis.


I can’t seem to find the comment, I think it was a comment on digg, but I can no longer find it. Either way, it was a passing remark, no way of verification that they actually knew him.

jorgelito:

i am confused about "his case"----what is it that is being evaluated?
at this point, what you have are ex post facto narratives each of which functions of justify the actions of the party producing the narrative.
not all these narratives are equally present in the thread.
further, i am not entirely sure of how interesting each narrative would be, precisely because they each would smooth out the problem by imposing a particular ex-post logic on it---the problem arose in the ambiguity of real-time, in what appears to be choices made at each point of what came to be a chain of such choices.
the one that bothers me is that taken by the cops--but in a justificatory narrative, the criteria that played into making the choice to treat the student as they did would be fundamentally altered.

it'd maybe be interesting to have more of the actual narratives from all sides here....and maybe links to other video materials...if folk want to treat this as a kind of ad hoc courtroom. but what i have seen from the video stuff that i have looked at is that the cameras were switched on well after the point where the situation took a decisive turn had already happened, and so i dont really know if they would help. and the narratives are inevitably going to be mutually exclusive. so i would expect undecidablity.

in the end, i am not sure but what most of the debate in this thread actually turns on different folk's aesthetic reaction to the taser footage itself--how they responded to what the cops were doing from what they could see--and how this response resonated with wider aesthetic and/or political attitudes (prior to committments) that were then routed through political positions. explaining this would probably be a routing of empathy--which party you chose to sympathise with in the footage, who you chose to humanize and what projections you were able to structure around that.

it is obvious how the lines have played out here. for myself, i could not imagine a situation that would justify the use of force like that, and so empathized with the voice of the student. you are closer to the situation and project through anxieties particular to the campus mediated by the experiences of your friends, who may or may not share those anxieties. other folk clearly empathized with the campus police, and developed positions based on that.

and i would expect that adding more information would result mostly in a repeat of the same process.

it is all very curious, this tangle that can arise when you start to slow down the process of making judgments about video footage and--by extension (with problems) situations partially represented in it.


btw: dilbert--thanks for the link: it is interesting.
totally inconclusive...but interesting.
what is with that messageboard, tho?
jesus...

That's a very good summation Roach. At this point, we will just have to wait and see how events develop.

The case I am referring to is the student's lawsuit.

has anyone heard news stories about what is being done with regards to the cops that tazered him?

the forum was the comments on Digg.com i dont remember which one it was in, tehre are several ones about the incedent, one has over 1000 comments, i cant find it.

You know, I'm getting less and less sympathetic for this kid as time goes by.

Tasers were still not the only answer available.

Cops hired to work in a University still should know how to deal with petty rebellious behavior.

But this kid is hard to support or believe.

Civil disobedience is a good thing when used for a reason. This kid has truly trashed the methodologies of the great MLK jr. I find that in and of itself offensive.

Still the cops could have done better.

It's a conundrum.

I'm with you, Xera. This kid definitely seems like a douchebag, but the cops chose the wrong way to deal with the situation.

I don't understand this line of thought:

1. You want the kid to leave
2. he goes limp
3. taser him

What were they expecting the effect of tasering him to be? I usually think tasering is done to subdue someone.... but he was subdued: he just went limp. Tasering him would never (I would think) get someone to stand up and start walking, would it? Just drag the asshole out at that point. There were 5 cops, it shouldn't have been too difficult.

I thought 3 was profit...

But seriously, 2.5 is the question, what made the police decide tasering was the best option. Did they perceive him as a threat, or did they just get the new model of taser in the mail. I think it could have been justified; however, 5 I’m not to sure about. However, I think we are in agreement that he was a douche and was asking for trouble.

If the student plays his cards right, "profit" could very well be the last step. ;)

Have you even been _reading_ the thread? Try any of roachboy's posts before yours.

Even assuming that this analogy is perfect, don't you think tasering him once might have sufficed? Subduing him was no longer the issue once he was limp on the ground, which is where the next several taser hits were administered. Given the extent of what happened, I'm boggled that anyone can defend the police here.

Oh God, I hope not. This is quickly becoming the big joke on campus. I went to a party last night where one of the hosts was making an announcement. She said: "Listen up or I'll taser you" at which point everyone started laughing and some kids started pulling out their ids and screaming "here's your patriot act". I'm just waiting for the "Got taser?" t-shirts now. Lots of students are doing impersonations of the student, "screaming like a little girl" whenever something is not going their way: EX: at the end of the party, as the guests were leaving, one kid "went limp" and did a friggin' hilarious impersonation while other kids started "zapping" him with their cell phones saying, "get up, get up".

I dunno, maybe this is how kids are dealing with the "trauma" of it all, like how some kids laugh at funerals or upon hearing news of a person's death.

Well, an idiot student screaming like a little girl, and a bunch of cops who don't know how to do their job. What's there not to laugh at? :) Look, in the end, no one was seriously hurt, and hopefully mocking the absurdity of all this will help people (students and cops) to act more maturely in future similar situations.

Yes, I have been and yes, I've read them.

The cops showed up, grabbed his arm and proceeded to escort him out of the library when he fell to the ground in protest, hence why he was initially tasered. He was told to stand up, he refused (All the while screaming "Fuck you!") and was subsequently tasered again. He was told to stand up again, he refused and was tasered yet again. Would you have rathered the cops dragged him out of the library kicking and screaming? If he wouldn't have fallen to the groun initially, he wouldn't have been tasered initially. If he would have stood up instead of remaining on the ground hurling obscenities at the cops, he wouldn't have been tasered any subsequent times.

By my counts, the student broke three different rules.

1.) Failure to show ID,
2.) Tresspassing and
3.) Failure to comply with the cops.

That's why he was tasered and continued to be tasered.

And this is to the people jumping on the cops for their actions: "Everyone's a genius after-the-fact."

I'm not even bothering to contest you on whether or not he broke rules, or acted like an asshole, or needed to be removed, or whatever.

You said he needed to be subdued.
None of what you just mentioned has anything to do with subduing him.
Forcing him to comply with an order to stand is not "subduing" him, by any accurate definition.

Tase 'em when they're up, tase 'em when they're down - tase 'em when they're up, tase 'em all around...

So you're basically saying that they were tasing him on his toes, so to speak? I don't know - I'm kind of liking this precendent now that I think about it. Might start keeping one of these things in my suitcase. People getting off the elevator too slow? bzzz...., move along fatass...don't have all day. The drivethrough? Crosswalks at intersections around the local uni campus?....Do you have to retract the cables, or are they replaceable?

So, is there any evidence to show this kid went to the library to provoke this situation, or is the accusation that he essentially turned into a douche after this started...from what I can see, he actually sounds like a lot of college kids I know / have known. I guess I just haven't seen the same evidence that many of you have allowing you to get into his mindset.

Are you serious? You are actually suggesting that civilians get involved in a police control situation? All that would have accomplished is ANOTHER person being tazed, or WORSE.

At no point durring the watching of the video did ANY of the officers respond in an angry way. They spoke calmly, and with control.

Your information is a little off. He was leaving AFTER he had been asked several times by library officials, and when the police went to escort him out to verify ID, he wanted to THEN just leave. It is Federal policy on ANY university campus to Identify the potential student. He evidently refused to provide this information, and when an officer grabbed his arm when he was THEN walking away, he jerked his arm from the grasp of the officer. Ask ANY officer, if a police officer has grabbed your arm, and you have jerked away, this is considered RESISTING ARREST, and is punishable by law. REGARDLESS of the situation. If the student had just followed direction, and given the officers his information, they could have EASILY identified him as a student, and no further action taken.

His problem stemmed from the fact that in VIOLATION OF POSTED UNIVERSITY POLICY, he was unable to PROVE that he was a student, and then REFUSED to comply with direction.

Again, the students are RESPONSABLE for providing PROOF, knowing a password and id name is not sufficient proof of who he is as far as I am concerned. I know my brother's password and login from his school, So I could just as easily walk in and log in to a computer at the library there. Does that mean I am a student with an ID TO SHOW?...NO.

He was asked politely by the campus police to leave. Once he refused, it became a violation of school policy. If you pay attention to the video, he WAS handcuffed, and they attempted to get him to leave on his own tow feet. He REFUSED, and continued to RESIST ARREST when asked to get up and walk away. He sure had enough power in his body to scream at the police and curse them...Sorry, after being tasered myself in training courses you can EASILY be able to stand within seconds of the taser control releasing you. that is why tasers have set limits, and are able to be used multiple times, because they are ineffective after the charge is depleted. If you also look at history of arrests and detaining, there are TONS of lawsuits out there from people who sue police for picking them up and escorting them out while cuffed, and causing them a sprained wrist. any way you go about it, ANY PERSON who is crazy enough to RESIST AREEST must be ready to face the consequences.

OK, so because he FINALLY AGREED to walk out, the police shouldn't attemt to detain him for proof of ID? Or should we let someone who can't prove he has a right to be there just walk right out and wander around a COLLEGE CAMPUS?

AGAIN, he was NOT tasered for forgetting his ID card, he was tasered for not comlying with direction by campus personell and police....

As I had said before, when an officer grabs your arm, even IF he shouldn't, and you jerk away, it is AUTOMATICLY RESISTING ARREST... PERIOD!

According to the lawyer of the student, the student HIMSELF told the lawyer he lied down on the floor and REFUSED to move.

Look at the video again, they DID cuff him, and he remained limp and refusing to comply even AFTER he was cuffed.

These are my personal opinions, and my statements are based on personal knowledge and experiences in life, as well as my own personal beliefs.

What scares me the most is that THESE people are our future America....Makes me want to buy that Island off the coast of Costa Rica again....

But do you really think that tasering is the right way to get a limp person to get up and leave? That's what I don't get. Seriously, if you've got a person laying on the ground that isn't following the order of "GET UP," tasering him just seems like something you'd do because you're pissed off that he's not listening to you. It doesn't help the situation at all.

Who knows what this kid was thinking. He was obvioiusly scared (I'm not sympathizing here, just saying he was). He obviously felt theartened. He was obviously not in the right mental state to do the right thing. Now, if I was him at that point, I could very well see myself thinking that these cops are gonna shock me if I try to get up, because then they might think I'm making a "sudden move" and I'll just get tasered again.

Really, how can it not be agreed that just dragging this kid out would have been the right thing to do, and tasering him was overkill?


He's not suggesting that the group of students should have gotten involved, he's just surprised they didn't. And I agree with him. The crowd was angered by the officers' actions. Tasering the kid repeatedly provoked that. Another big huge reason why they shouldn't have done it.