What do you think? "Frat suspended over 'Hood' party" - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Xera · 11-19-2006, 09:17 PM

Racism pisses me off. I'm from the south, lived much of my life on the "wrong" side of the Mason-Dixon, and have had to explain to many times that I CAN have this accent and not be a member of the KKK. So when I see people who talk like me, and look like me, go out of their way to prove to the world that people that look like me and talk like me are racists, I get pissed. It's hard work to undo all that negativity.

These kids were STUPID. The theme of the party was surely offensive. I would love to actually be able to see one of these invitations. I was unable to look at the link in the OP because yahoo said it didn't exist anymore. I looked for the article, but I don't know which college it was at and apparantly there were SEVERAL issues with people dressed in offensive costumes at frat parties this last Halloween. I looked into the one at Hopkins University.

Did the invitation actually say "dress in regional clothing such as bling bling, grills, etc" If so then doesn't it stand to reason that this type of dress is not unusual in the region? I'm not sure I see a point to dressing up in "costume" on Halloween to look like the neighbors do every day. If not, then I'm not sure I see where anyone got offended.

Suspending the kids was out of line unless their charter says they won't be racist. Discrimination is against the law (unless your a white male protestant, then your fair game). Racism is not. However stupid these kids were, anything above and beyond a protest of their actions is inappropriate.

Manic_Skafe · 11-19-2006, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soccerchamp76

How do you feel about the fact that a school organization called the "Black Student Government" is allowed to exist? Is that racist? Or how about the fact that every member of said group is probably at the school on a scholarship that isn't merit based?

That last sentence could've put Stretch Armstong to shame.

As far as I've ever known of them, there hasn't even been a Black Student Union that's exclusive only to blacks. As I said before, student unions don't exist with the purpose of being exclusionary but to unite any group of students with a common interest or background to share the college experience from a similar perspective.

...

Xera · 11-19-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

how about the fact that every member of said group is probably at the school on a scholarship that isn't merit based?

Do you realize that what you are saying can easily be interpreted to mean that NO person of non Caucasian race could possibly EARN a scholarship?

Frosstbyte · 11-19-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xera

Do you realize that what you are saying can easily be interpreted to mean that NO person of non Caucasian race could possibly EARN a scholarship?

You know quite well the point he was making and that he was exaggerating when he made it. There's no reason to twist people's words to make them say things they're not.

That isn't to say the point is right or well-taken, but he was making a point about race-based scholarships, not about how smart or meritorious members of a particular race are in comparison to another.

jorgelito · 11-19-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

You know quite well the point he was making and that he was exaggerating when he made it. There's no reason to twist people's words to make them say things they're not.

That isn't to say the point is right or well-taken, but he was making a point about race-based scholarships, not about how smart or meritorious members of a particular race are in comparison to another.

It was very presumptous to assume that most black students were there on a non-merit based scholarship. I would like to see evidence of that. Whatever point he was trying to make about race-based scholarships (which is very debatable - as a minority, I never received a race-based scholarship) was completely erroneous.

Frosstbyte · 11-20-2006, 12:26 AM

Of course it's presumptuous. It was an exaggeration. I'm quite sure soccerchamp doesn't actually think that every black person at the school is on a non-merit-based race-based scholarship. The point he was making (which is not at all erroneous, even if it was somewhat clouded in his exaggeration) was that if you made a "WASP Male Scholarship Fund" you'd catch a lot of grief for being a misogynist and a racist. However, female only or race-specific scholarships are relatively common and are well-accepted. That double standard does exist and was the point soccerchamp made. Respond to that point, not the exaggeration on its face.

jorgelito · 11-20-2006, 01:09 AM

Ok, I see what you are saying now. On the matter of racebased scholarships, I don't really see the problem as it is a private matter. If it was publically funded then I would have a problem with it. You could argue that there are white scholarships such as the Daughters of the Confederacy, Sons of the Confederacy scholarships, etc. Also, scholarships tend to break down into 2 different categories: merit and need based. It also depends on who's funding the scholarships. If some tycoon wants to fund "x-group" only then no big deal, it's his money. They do that already.

When I applied for scholarships , there were some interesting categories you could check. Descendants of the Mayflower, Descendants of the Settlers of the West (my school is in California), Armenian Ancestry, etc..

pig · 11-20-2006, 03:40 AM

On the why don't white people get the same treatment for scholarships? And why does the BSU exist - the WSU would probably be thought of as racist?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Monsignor Pigglet

i agree with the white supremicist tag on the A.C.C. (American Caucasion Club) - and what's more, it would probably be pretty accurate. to think that it wouldn't be is to ignore the history of race relations for the past several hundred years. i'm not a white apologist, by a long shot, but the facts are that predominantly white europeans took over the world and put everyone in chains? why? because they could, and that's what you did back in the day. they were in the right place and the right time to do globally. its a natural thing that the group that hasn't been oppressed for hundreds of years probably won't need a club to establish their identity and feelings of equality, the non-tradionally dominant groups might. it doesn't really bother me.

ie. who do you think would actually show up for a meeting of the White Students Union?

Quote:

Originally Posted by soccerc

Or how about the fact that every member of said group is probably at the school on a scholarship that isn't merit based?

Paint it how you will, that statement smacks of racism. "Shit, he was just making a point..." Oh, well ok then. As long as a point was being made, we'll just characterize all blacks in college as undeserving of the opportunity. Is anecdotal evidence ok? Why not, our standards are so high; the saludatorian at my high school was a black female, as I believe was the 5th person in our class. Both got academic scholarships to go to school.

As far as race-based scholarships go, I think we're approaching a point where economic situation of the family is a more accurate way to distribute college funds. However, to think that in a couple of generation this whole race issue in America is going to be magically cleared up is crazy. No question about it - race-based scholarships are definately discriminatory; however, it used to make a lot of sense to tie need-based scholarships to race, and now (given generational poverty) its still pretty strongly correlated.

mixedmedia · 11-20-2006, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soccerchamp76

How do you feel about the fact that a school organization called the "Black Student Government" is allowed to exist? Is that racist? Or how about the fact that every member of said group is probably at the school on a scholarship that isn't merit based?

I hear this kind of ridiculous argument all the time. Blacks are a minority whose culture is not reflected or represented in its entirety within mainstream society, therefore, sometimes they form their own organizations. It is not reverse racism. They only seek to stake out a place of their own within cultures that default largely to the white majority.

blade02 · 11-20-2006, 06:00 AM

Um if you dont want people to make fun of you for wearing your pants around your knees, wearing tons of gold chains, and having gold teeth, then MAYBE you shouldn't do it. It's not the fraternity's fault that the culture they chose to dress up as, is a culture that thrives on making itself look as ridiculous as possible. Its kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.

I'd say it was racist if they were doing stuff like dressing up as poor, or implying that they were under educated, or implying that a race of people was lower than their race. But from what I gather, all they were saying was "we think you guys have a funny sense of fashion".

mixedmedia · 11-20-2006, 07:02 AM

I want to be clear, because it probably sounds that way...I do not accuse these college kids of being racist, at least not in a literal sense. I'm not under the opinion that they held this costume party out of a hatred of black people. My concern is that this party is indicative of the general ignorance and indifference society has been garnering over the last couple of decades toward the issue of racism against blacks. It is still a sensitive issue whether you like it or not. And it has not gone away. Spend a little time in the rural south and you will see what I mean. And I'm not so naive as to believe those are the only areas in which it still exists. I've sat through many mind bending conversations with people from all over who don't consider themselves racist but complain about the NAACP and even BET(?!), coolly disregarding the very real purpose and circumstances that led to the formations of these organizations (ie, a very real and prevalent racial bias and a lack of media outlets that come from a black perspective). There are people my own age whose parents were brought up in a society where racism was institutionalized and stereotypical portrayals of them in popular culture were totally acceptable. Yet, what? They aren't getting over it fast enough? I think I might have a little chip on my shoulder, too. Anyone would. And I think I would be on the lookout for it, too, maybe even sometimes where it wouldn't exist. So what? Sue me.

I hate to think this, but I can't help it. And I'm just going to say it because I'm getting over a flu, I feel like crap this morning and I don't much care what anyone thinks of it. When I contemplate just what it is that makes people these days apologists for subtle racism, the only thing I can come up with is that white folks still don't like it when black folks get "uppity." If they'd just shut up and live quietly within the parameters left to them by hundreds of years of oppression, humiliation and mockery then maybe white people would be able to pity them with more sincerity and conviction. Is that it? If anyone has any other ideas I'd be glad to consider them, but it's the only thing I've come up with.

pig · 11-20-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

...the only thing I can come up with is that white folks still don't like it when black folks get "uppity."

Say what, honkey?

mixedmedia · 11-20-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

Say what, honkey?

haha! Thanks for making me laugh this morning. I needed that.

Telluride · 11-21-2006, 10:05 PM

Disclaimer: The original link to the article isn't working, so I am basing my opinion on this matter on information posted by others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

While we may not think it's racist, apparently some people do. I think it isn't a bad thing to honor that and at the very least have some sort of dialogue. The wounds of racism are deep in this country, it will take some time to heal. And that's ok.

I disagree. People have a right to their opinion (including the opinion that some activity is offensive or racist) but the rest of society has no obligation to take these opinions seriously. And automatically giving credibility to anyone with a complaint sounds like a great way to drastically increase the number of complainers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I live in Florida now, but my people reign from Gawgia, honey pie.

and also...

I'm glad you understand. We seem to have developed a knee-jerk under-reaction to racism against blacks. It's a cultural thing I don't quite understand.

Is this alleged "under-reaction" specific to Florida, or is it happening all over the USA or even the world in general? My experience has been that the racism mostly likely to receive an under-reaction is bigotry against white people. That's not to say that bigotry against blacks is never ignored or that every instance of bigotry against whites becomes a major issue, but it seems to me that white people are expected to tolerate a lot more mocking and mistreatment than non-whites before their complaints are considered legitimate.

11-19-2006, 09:17 PM	#81 (permalink)
Xera Crazy	Racism pisses me off. I'm from the south, lived much of my life on the "wrong" side of the Mason-Dixon, and have had to explain to many times that I CAN have this accent and not be a member of the KKK. So when I see people who talk like me, and look like me, go out of their way to prove to the world that people that look like me and talk like me are racists, I get pissed. It's hard work to undo all that negativity. These kids were STUPID. The theme of the party was surely offensive. I would love to actually be able to see one of these invitations. I was unable to look at the link in the OP because yahoo said it didn't exist anymore. I looked for the article, but I don't know which college it was at and apparantly there were SEVERAL issues with people dressed in offensive costumes at frat parties this last Halloween. I looked into the one at Hopkins University. Did the invitation actually say "dress in regional clothing such as bling bling, grills, etc" If so then doesn't it stand to reason that this type of dress is not unusual in the region? I'm not sure I see a point to dressing up in "costume" on Halloween to look like the neighbors do every day. If not, then I'm not sure I see where anyone got offended. Suspending the kids was out of line unless their charter says they won't be racist. Discrimination is against the law (unless your a white male protestant, then your fair game). Racism is not. However stupid these kids were, anything above and beyond a protest of their actions is inappropriate. __________________ ~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~ "A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing." ~Erno Philips

11-20-2006, 07:02 AM	#91 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I want to be clear, because it probably sounds that way...I do not accuse these college kids of being racist, at least not in a literal sense. I'm not under the opinion that they held this costume party out of a hatred of black people. My concern is that this party is indicative of the general ignorance and indifference society has been garnering over the last couple of decades toward the issue of racism against blacks. It is still a sensitive issue whether you like it or not. And it has not gone away. Spend a little time in the rural south and you will see what I mean. And I'm not so naive as to believe those are the only areas in which it still exists. I've sat through many mind bending conversations with people from all over who don't consider themselves racist but complain about the NAACP and even BET(?!), coolly disregarding the very real purpose and circumstances that led to the formations of these organizations (ie, a very real and prevalent racial bias and a lack of media outlets that come from a black perspective). There are people my own age whose parents were brought up in a society where racism was institutionalized and stereotypical portrayals of them in popular culture were totally acceptable. Yet, what? They aren't getting over it fast enough? I think I might have a little chip on my shoulder, too. Anyone would. And I think I would be on the lookout for it, too, maybe even sometimes where it wouldn't exist. So what? Sue me. I hate to think this, but I can't help it. And I'm just going to say it because I'm getting over a flu, I feel like crap this morning and I don't much care what anyone thinks of it. When I contemplate just what it is that makes people these days apologists for subtle racism, the only thing I can come up with is that white folks still don't like it when black folks get "uppity." If they'd just shut up and live quietly within the parameters left to them by hundreds of years of oppression, humiliation and mockery then maybe white people would be able to pity them with more sincerity and conviction. Is that it? If anyone has any other ideas I'd be glad to consider them, but it's the only thing I've come up with. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

11-20-2006, 12:26 AM	#86 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	Of course it's presumptuous. It was an exaggeration. I'm quite sure soccerchamp doesn't actually think that every black person at the school is on a non-merit-based race-based scholarship. The point he was making (which is not at all erroneous, even if it was somewhat clouded in his exaggeration) was that if you made a "WASP Male Scholarship Fund" you'd catch a lot of grief for being a misogynist and a racist. However, female only or race-specific scholarships are relatively common and are well-accepted. That double standard does exist and was the point soccerchamp made. Respond to that point, not the exaggeration on its face.

11-20-2006, 01:09 AM	#87 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Ok, I see what you are saying now. On the matter of racebased scholarships, I don't really see the problem as it is a private matter. If it was publically funded then I would have a problem with it. You could argue that there are white scholarships such as the Daughters of the Confederacy, Sons of the Confederacy scholarships, etc. Also, scholarships tend to break down into 2 different categories: merit and need based. It also depends on who's funding the scholarships. If some tycoon wants to fund "x-group" only then no big deal, it's his money. They do that already. When I applied for scholarships , there were some interesting categories you could check. Descendants of the Mayflower, Descendants of the Settlers of the West (my school is in California), Armenian Ancestry, etc..

11-20-2006, 06:00 AM	#90 (permalink)
blade02 Insane	Um if you dont want people to make fun of you for wearing your pants around your knees, wearing tons of gold chains, and having gold teeth, then MAYBE you shouldn't do it. It's not the fraternity's fault that the culture they chose to dress up as, is a culture that thrives on making itself look as ridiculous as possible. Its kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. I'd say it was racist if they were doing stuff like dressing up as poor, or implying that they were under educated, or implying that a race of people was lower than their race. But from what I gather, all they were saying was "we think you guys have a funny sense of fashion".