Political Correctness run amok... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KnifeMissile · 10-22-2006, 02:33 AM

This happened a while ago but it's still an interesting story...

Quote:

D.C. mayor's aide quits after word is taken as racial slur

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An aide to the District of Columbia's mayor resigned Tuesday citing pressure from controversy over his use of the word "niggardly," which some deemed a racial slur.

But even as he stepped down, David Howard, who is white, said the word does not have any racial connotation.

"Mr. Howard's resignation was prompted by reports that he made an inappropriate racial comment," newly-elected Mayor Anthony Williams, who is black, said in a statement Tuesday night.

In a separate statement, Howard identified the word he used as "niggardly" in a staff meeting and said he was referring to a fund he administers. Howard said it means "miserly."

Webster's Tenth Edition concurs, defining it as "grudgingly mean about spending or granting." The dictionary dates its use to the late 16th century.

Williams told reporters Tuesday that holding a senior public office required good judgment, adding, "I don't think that the use of this term showed the kind of judgment that I like to see in our top management."

Because the word sounds like a racial epithet, Howard said, he realized other members of the mayor's staff present when he made the remark were offended. He said he quickly apologized.

But he said that since he made the remark on January 15, he has received many angry phone calls from people who thought he made a racist remark. About two-thirds of the capital city's half million population is black.

"I would never think of making a racist remark," said Howard, whose job was to hear the concerns of district residents and bring them to the attention of the mayor and his staff.

"I realize that this rumor has severely compromised my effectiveness as the district's public advocate and, in the best interest of my office, I resigned," he said.

In accepting Howard's resignation, Williams said he is "committed to representing all of the people of our city and making sure my administration truly reflects the city's diversity."

Williams said the issue reflects a "hurt" and "great divide" within the city and that race relations must be talked about openly in the nation's capital.

I can't believe people would react so harshly to such an innocent word. Okay, so you hadn't heard the word before and mistook it for another one. That's understandable but to react so badly to it even after learning what the word really meant seems stupidly stubborn to me. Is there a reason why people can't just admit their own mistake and move on? Will they, next, object to calling a spade a spade?

PS Can a mod move this to the General Discussion forum, please? I posted it here by mistake. Thank you...
PPS Why isn't there a "report" button on my own post?

mixedmedia · 10-22-2006, 05:39 AM

A while ago is right! 1999? LOL

But it is a ridiculous story. Hopefully the guy went on to something better. It's pretty bad when one can't use the entirety of the English language because a word sounds like an insult. Even once they've learned that it's not?? You're right, it is stubborn. Stubborn and ignorant.

ratbastid · 10-22-2006, 07:28 AM

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but I can see the other side of it. Look: the guy's a politician. He ought to know better than to do ANYTHING that could be misinterpreted by even the dumbest of the dumb. It was poor judgement. I don't think he deserves to lose his job for it, but it was a stupid choice of words.

Sultana · 10-22-2006, 07:45 AM

I remember this very clearly, and it infuriates me that educated people are apparantly intended to dumb down their language to promote a standard of ignorance for the masses.

Kinda wierd, I've actually wanted to use "niggardly" on more than one occasion, but yes, I refrain now.

I don't think he should have quit, but of course there are many other things at play than we may be aware of.

Intentions, intentions.

Ustwo · 10-22-2006, 07:59 AM

niggardly = bad
crack = ok

Welcome to D.C.

ubertuber · 10-22-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the original article

Williams said the issue reflects a "hurt" and "great divide" within the city and that race relations must be talked about openly in the nation's capital.

I wonder if the author wrote that with the amount of sarcasm I read into it, given the content of the article.

dc_dux · 10-22-2006, 09:04 AM

I really dont understand why the OP had to dig up a 7 year old story to raise the issue of political correctness. I have a smiliar reaction to the "crack" remark.

Tony Williams has done more to bring the cityof DC together and move it ahead in his 8 years as mayor than anyone could have hoped following the Marion Berry era. The next mayor, Adrian Fenty, is a simlar intelligent, honest and dedicated political leader.

Willravel · 10-22-2006, 09:23 AM

Niggardly? In my dictionary, between the word "niggardly" and it's definition, it says "often offensive". Do you know why it says that? Because it is. Because gookly and beanerly are also offensive. My people, the northern europeans, have not been enslaved (except by Bush) for hundreds and hundreds of years. The effects have worn off. The same is not true of black people. I have black friends who are still treated like crap for no other reason but they are black. That's leftovers from slavery. When racism stops, then maybe white people can say words that are or sound like nigger, nigga, nigro, etc. Right now, their anger is justified. I have no problem saying "fuck you" to anyone of any race, gender or creed, but using racial slurs isn't appropriate.

That being said, asking someone to resign for saying "niggardly" is the real racism in this case. While I never use the "n" word, if I did and someone were to try and get me fired for it, I would rightously defend myself. It's a word. Yes, it's offensive, but it's just a word. It can only hurt you as much as you let it hurt you. If italians had a slave name for germans, then I'd not care one bit. You see, I've never been a slave. My ancestors were, but I am not.

Dilbert1234567 · 10-22-2006, 10:17 AM

He use a correct word for the situation, the word is not related to the word nigger, though someone unfamiliar with the word "niggardly" might take offense due to the superficial phonetic similarity between the words. Did the guy make an error, partly, you only use the words your audience will know, he was not wrong for using the word, just for using it with people who don’t know it.

I use the saying 'pro bono' a lot, to do a service for free for the public good, as some of you know I do computer repair for a living, and for college students, I cut my rates, sometimes I do it for free, (specially when they are cute

) but on several occasions, the person I am talking with don’t know the word, and I get slapped, (pro bonner), one nice gentleman said 'I’m flattered, but I don’t swing that way'. Is using pro bono also wrong? No, it just has to be used with people who know its meaning. After these incidents I explained the saying, and everything is cool, that is what this David Howard should have done, noticed some one took offence, and quashed it then and there, apologies and explained the word has no relation to the n word, and given its definition.

KnifeMissile · 10-22-2006, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I really dont understand why the OP had to dig up a 7 year old story to raise the issue of political correctness. I have a smiliar reaction to the "crack" remark.

Didn't you read my post? I said why I brought it up... because it's still an interesting story. It was never discussed here (indeed, did "here" exist then?) so I brought it up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Tony Williams has done more to bring the cityof DC together and move it ahead in his 8 years as mayor than anyone could have hoped following the Marion Berry era. The next mayor, Adrian Fenty, is a simlar intelligent, honest and dedicated political leader.

...and he can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Look, this is not a statement about him, or anyone else, as a political leader. It's a statement about people's feelings toward words. There are actually two messages that I had hoped would get through in my post...

First, that there are a great variety of words in the English language and there's nothing wrong with exercising them. This word has a perfectly innocent meaning and people shouldn't shun it because it has, as Dilbert1234567 so eloquently put it, a "superficial phonetic similarity."

Indeed, you don't see me taking offense when people talk about a chink in one's armour. That has more than a phonetic similarity but it's no less superficial...

Secondly, that people can't admit their own mistake. There's nothing wrong with the word, it's just that people didn't understand it. Again, there's nothing wrong with not knowing a word. I read novels with a dictionary at hand. However, if your understanding of a word has been corrected, why not correct your reactions to that word? Anything less is just stubbornness...

Now, to my second post, since the forum will just auto-merge them, anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Niggardly? In my dictionary, between the word "niggardly" and it's definition, it says "often offensive". Do you know why it says that? Because it is. Because gookly and beanerly are also offensive. My people, the northern europeans, have not been enslaved (except by Bush) for hundreds and hundreds of years. The effects have worn off. The same is not true of black people. I have black friends who are still treated like crap for no other reason but they are black. That's leftovers from slavery. When racism stops, then maybe white people can say words that are or sound like nigger, nigga, nigro, etc. Right now, their anger is justified. I have no problem saying "fuck you" to anyone of any race, gender or creed, but using racial slurs isn't appropriate.

What dictionary are you using? I'd like to see what other words it finds "offensive." Does it mention that it's a racial slur? I suspect it won't and that's because it's not. According to an internet source, its etymology is Scandanavian and its use dates back to the fourteenth century and far predates the racial slur. Did you read "often offensive" in your dictionary and assume that must have meant that it bore similar roots to the word "nigger?" It also said "often offensive." Does that mean it's not necessarily offensive? What is your issue, exactly?

sapiens · 10-22-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Niggardly? In my dictionary, between the word "niggardly" and it's definition, it says "often offensive". Do you know why it says that? Because it is. Because gookly and beanerly are also offensive.

This is not an apt comparison. The etymological roots of niggardly differ from the etymological roots of nigger. Saying niggardly is nothing like saying "gookly" or "beanerly" (Both of which I've never heard of, but if they are actual words, I would wager that their etymological roots are racist). I do agree that it is absurd to be fired for saying "niggardly". The decision to fire the guy seems to be a result of the ignorance of those who heard him rather than his own ignorance. Sometimes people lose their jobs for being politically insensitive. Sometimes, it may be appropriate. This isn't one of those times.

Willravel · 10-22-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissle

What dictionary are you using? I'd like to see what other words it finds "offensive." Does it mention that it's a racial slur? I suspect it won't and that's because it's not. According to an internet source, its etymology is Scandanavian and its use dates back to the fourteenth century and far predates the racial slur. Did you read "often offensive" in your dictionary and assume that must have meant that it bore similar roots to the word "nigger?" It also said "often offensive." Does that mean it's not necessarily offensive? What is your issue, exactly?

I was pointing out that my dicsionary (the one that came with widgets on my Mac, not sure what edition or publisher) mistakenly says that the meaning is offensive. It's cultural, and it's widespread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

This is not an apt comparison. The etymological roots of niggardly differ from the etymological roots of nigger. Saying niggardly is nothing like saying "gookly" or "beanerly" (Both of which I've never heard of, but if they are actual words, I would wager that their etymological roots are racist). I do agree that it is absurd to be fired for saying "niggardly". The decision to fire the guy seems to be a result of the ignorance of those who heard him rather than his own ignorance. Sometimes people lose their jobs for being politically insensitive. Sometimes, it may be appropriate. This isn't one of those times.

I was being sarcastic. Gookly and beanerly aren't words that I am aware of, but I was pointing out that people are quick to react when they hear something that even sounds like, but does not share a meaning, with the "n" word.

KnifeMissile · 10-22-2006, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I was pointing out that my dicsionary (the one that came with widgets on my Mac, not sure what edition or publisher) mistakenly says that the meaning is offensive. It's cultural, and it's widespread.

Does that make it a failing of the Mac?

/ducks...

stevie667 · 10-22-2006, 03:23 PM

Dictionary.com doesn't say its racist.

Everyone grab your pitch forks and torches and lets go burn down apple! That'll teach 'em for not having that there word book right!

I can find at least 3 plants off the top of my head where i work which bear the name 'xxxxxxx niger'. If someone wants to get offended because it is similar to nigger fine, but someone should warn niger (what the BBC now refers to as 'nee-jair', what was wrong with 'ni-ger?), or the taxinomists. I'm just gonna think of you as an idiot.

shakran · 10-22-2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but I can see the other side of it. Look: the guy's a politician. He ought to know better than to do ANYTHING that could be misinterpreted by even the dumbest of the dumb. It was poor judgement. I don't think he deserves to lose his job for it, but it was a stupid choice of words.

by that logic a politician should never say "duck" because it sounds pretty darned close to "fuck" and for fuck's sake we can't be saying bad word soundalikes can we?

Dilbert1234567 · 10-22-2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

...as Dilbert1234567 so eloquently put it, a "superficial phonetic similarity."...

um, yeah, as i so eloquently cut and pasted from wikipedia... i forgot to quote it, sorry.

nigger is not the root of niggardly, the root of niggardly is niggard. the only power words have is the power we give them.

ratbastid · 10-22-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

by that logic a politician should never say "duck" because it sounds pretty darned close to "fuck" and for fuck's sake we can't be saying bad word soundalikes can we?

Don't slippery slope me. "Niggardly" isn't exactly in common usage, and it's perfectly understandable that somebody without a lot of education or a big vocabulary might draw unpleasant conclusions about that word.

I'm not saying "Yay for misunderstanders!" I'm saying, as a politician, it's your job to shape and mold the public's perception of you. And using a word that is possible--even likely--to be negatively misunderstood by some people is just thoughtless.

You'll never go broke underestimating the public. His mistake here was, he overestimated the public.

jorgelito · 10-22-2006, 06:29 PM

He has every right to use that word. But he can't complain if people get offended. I actually think it's a great word and rather apt in the given context. BUT, as a politician, it was a very poor choice of words. So, as a result, you suffer the consequences. I think there was a similar case when some politician used the term "tar baby" and caused all sorts of bedlam with it even though his usage of the term was quite correct and appropriate. Hey, that's politics.

By the way, he was not fired, he resigned.

Niger is not as bad (sounding) as niggardly. Part of the problem is that niggardly is not a often used word so it is "foreign" to many people so it is easily misheard as the pejorative. Given that's the case, then it would be wise to not use it, especially when there are plenty of other ways to decribe the situation.

English is also a constantly evolving and changing language. Many words in use yesterday are no longer in use today. Many words that were acceptable yesterday are no longer acceptable today. Midget is one, same with retarded, handicapped, etc....

Try telling your kid to pick up the faggots in the backyard for disposal (a bundle of sticks). I almost punched out some British guy at the bar once when he asked me for a fag (a cigarette).

Yes, they're just words. But think about it. They're more than that. Don't blame it on political correctness, that's a cop out. Otherwise, why should we have so many rules at TFP regarding "just words"? If they're just words then people should not get their panties in a wad when posters write a certain way right? They're just words, what's wrong with AZN? They're just words, what's wrong with saying "hey baby, nice legs let's see more" in tilted exhibition right" They're just words yet people get all twisted over analog, ustwo and others posts all the time. Hey, they're just words right?

They're just words right? Then why can't I wear a t-shirt that says "We will not remain silent" at the airport?

Just food for thought.....

shakran · 10-22-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Don't slippery slope me. "Niggardly" isn't exactly in common usage, and it's perfectly understandable that somebody without a lot of education or a big vocabulary might draw unpleasant conclusions about that word.

I'm not slippery sloping you, I'm objecting to your unquestioning acceptance of abject stupidity.

I'm sorry that some people can't be bothered to learn their own language well enough to figure out that just because a word rhymes or looks similar to another word, it doesn't mean they have the same definition. But really, that's not this employee's (let's get another thing straight - he's not a politician, he's an employee OF a politician) fault now is it?

For example, horses do not have behooves, and should someone use the word "behoove" we should not chastise him out of fear it will confuse some ignorant schmuck.

Niggardly, despite the oh-so incriminating fact that it shares four whole letters with a racial epithet, is not a bad word, and is not offensive. Those who get offended by it are displaying their own ignorance.

I do not support the dumbing down philosophy you are advocating here. Just because the definition of a word may not be known to the mouthbreathing illiterates, does not mean those who do have something called a vocabulary should have to refrain from using it.

Quote:

I'm not saying "Yay for misunderstanders!" I'm saying, as a politician, it's your job to shape and mold the public's perception of you. And using a word that is possible--even likely--to be negatively misunderstood by some people is just thoughtless.

Sorry, but you're flat out wrong. On the one hand we say politicans shouldn't assume everyone' stupid. Then you come in here and say they should, lest they be misunderstood. We say politicans should be and appear to be intelligent, yet you suggest they should dumb themselves down to be sure that the bottom-of-the-IQ-pile citizen doesn't jump to a false conclusion about what they said. I'm sorry but I just don't buy it.

Our society has become entirely too tolerant of stupidity. Gloriously stupid people are not only allowed to live their lives without being chastized for their insistance on remaining stupid, but they are even financially rewarded for their stupidity. McDonalds coffee lawsuits come to mind here. It's high time we fight back against the stupid who insist on remaining stupid despite the opportunities to improve.

This whole "niggardly" situation should have evaporated in a puff of smoke the minute someone pointed out what the definition of the word actually is. Instead the guy still lost his job, even though the mayor knew damn well what the word means. That means the mayor is in effect saying "Let the stupid remain stupid, and let us cater to their every stupid thought, even to the detriment of the rest of us." That's frankly bullshit. If you're cool with living in a dumbed-down, dumbass society, that's all you. I'd rather live in a society that's interested in improvement.

Gilda · 10-23-2006, 03:25 AM

It's stupid to get upset at this, sure, but we are talking about a word that isn't in common usage and sounds a lot like the epithet. Taking this into account when choosing one's diction for a formal occasion would have been a smart thing to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

Will they, next, object to calling a spade a spade?

The objection here would be . . . ? This phrase means to use an accurate label or name for something, or be precise with language for the purpose of clarity, with the particular example being a specific type of shovel, one with a pointed digging blade. In other words, don't get fancy and call a spade a digging implement if you mean spade. Call a spade a spade.

Who could possibly get upset about, to paraphrase, calling a shovel a shovel?

Gilda

highthief · 10-23-2006, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

It's stupid to get upset at this, sure, but we are talking about a word that isn't in common usage and sounds a lot like the epithet. Taking this into account when choosing one's diction for a formal occasion would have been a smart thing to do.

The objection here would be . . . ? This phrase means to use an accurate label or name for something, or be precise with language for the purpose of clarity, with the particular example being a specific type of shovel, one with a pointed digging blade. In other words, don't get fancy and call a spade a digging implement if you mean spade. Call a spade a spade.

Who could possibly get upset about, to paraphrase, calling a shovel a shovel?

Gilda

Spade = black person.

aKula · 10-23-2006, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

It's stupid to get upset at this, sure, but we are talking about a word that isn't in common usage and sounds a lot like the epithet. Taking this into account when choosing one's diction for a formal occasion would have been a smart thing to do.

I agree it wasn't a smart thing to use niggardly for exactly those reasons but he shouldn't have lost his job over it. If people want to be offended after both the meaning of the word and it's etymology has been explained to them then I say let them be. As for the person who lodged the complaint and the mayor, they should have looked into the matter further. I'm assuming that's what happened and the mayor didn't know the origins of the word as opposed to the other possibility which would lower my opinion of him even further.

Gilda · 10-23-2006, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Spade = black person.

I wasn't aware of that. I'm assuming this is intended as an insult of some kind? In either case it doesn't change the fact that this is a reference to an ancient Greek idiom meaning to speak plainly, to use simple and direct language.

If my assumption that this usage is derogatory is correct, it makes very little sense to interpret the phrase this way because the phrase is a warning against substituting symbolic language for plain and direct language. It doesn't work if you're using symbolic language instead of common language.

Why would someone assume a more complex and derogatory message rather than the simple, obvious one?

Gilda

Bill O'Rights · 10-23-2006, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Why would someone assume a more complex and derogatory message rather than the simple, obvious one?

Human nature?

ratbastid · 10-23-2006, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I wasn't aware of that. I'm assuming this is intended as an insult of some kind?

I believe it derives from the phrase "black as the ace of spades".

Look, shakran and others: I'm not saying it was right that the guy lost his job. What I'm saying is... Look, if I'm communicating with you and you don't get what I'm saying, it's not productive for me to blame YOU for that. What works is to take responsibility that my communication didn't leave you with what I meant to leave you with. There was something missing or (more likely) something added in my communication that had you not get the intent of my communication.

You can "object to the acceptance of stupidity" all you want--when it comes down to it, you still have to talk to actual people in the actual world. All your idealism about how smart people should be means precisely squat when it meets the real world.

mixedmedia · 10-23-2006, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

*snip*It's high time we fight back against the stupid who insist on remaining stupid despite the opportunities to improve.*snip*

I've pretty much had my say on this issue: After perhaps an understandable initial negative reaction, the innocuous meaning of the word should have been explained, everyone should have had a good laugh about it and gotten promptly back to work. The End.

But I just have to interject here how much I love the above statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

*snip*You can "object to the acceptance of stupidity" all you want--when it comes down to it, you still have to talk to actual people in the actual world. All your idealism about how smart people should be means precisely squat when it meets the real world.*snip*

I don't know about this, I don't think it's too much to ask of people to become a part of the real world where everything isn't dished out to them on black and white plates. No pun intended. I think those in this situation who stubbornly refused to admit they reacted in a shallow, premature way are the ones in denial of "the real world," if anyone is. As is anyone who capitulated to them.

shakran · 10-23-2006, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I believe it derives from the phrase "black as the ace of spades".

While we're on the subject, many don't realize that the phrase "he jipped me" actually is spelled "gypped" and stems from the stereotype of the cheating Gypsies.

Quote:

Look, if I'm communicating with you and you don't get what I'm saying, it's not productive for me to blame YOU for that.

And it's not productive for you to blame yourself either. Unless you plan to start writing your posts with only pictures, you have to take it on faith that people have at least a halfway decent vocabulary. You should also be able to take it on faith that if someone hears or sees a word they're not familiar with, they'll look it up instead of going off half cocked about it.

Your argument would have merit if you insisted on speaking Swahili even though you know I don't know that language. But you're speaking english, and that happens to be my primary language as well. I'll grant you that perhaps you know some words that I don't and vice versa, but it's up to each of us to find out the definition of words we don't know.

In this situation, the main objection is not that people don't know what "niggardly" means - although I still say it's pathetic that they don't. It's not like it's an ultra rare word like "phrontistery" or something - It's that when they were made aware of the definition they still insisted on demonizing this guy because it SOUNDS like nigger. Goes back to my original point that duck SOUNDS an awful lot like fuck, so by the logic of this situation we should fine TV stations when they use any word ending in "uck."

Quote:

What works is to take responsibility that my communication didn't leave you with what I meant to leave you with. There was something missing or (more likely) something added in my communication that had you not get the intent of my communication.

And it's silly to blame yourself for that. If I don't get your communication, restate it - define the word if I think it's offensive. If I still think a benign word is offensive after you've defined it for me, then the fault lies squarely with me.

Quote:

You can "object to the acceptance of stupidity" all you want--when it comes down to it, you still have to talk to actual people in the actual world. All your idealism about how smart people should be means precisely squat when it meets the real world.

Well perhaps it is idealism to expect people to not want to wallow in the Swamp of Dumbass, but if it is I'll remain idealistic, thank you. Our society loves to make fun of the egghead, loves to make fun of the smart guys, while glorifying the stupid. That's absurd and counterproductive.

If you're genuinely mentally challenged, have a low IQ or what have you, I'm not going to have a problem with you. But if you're of normal "intelligence" and yet insist on being a total moron, then you're right, I'm going to put a lot of blame on your shoulders.

As I said, I'll grant that you might not know what niggardly means. But once you find out the definition, if you insist on continuing the "that's racist!" charge, or you fire the guy who said it, you're a very special kind of stupid, and you'd better damn well believe it I'm gonna go after you with guns blazing.

Ustwo · 10-23-2006, 05:30 AM

This reminds me of when I had a Jewish friend of mine tell me that the term shyster was anti-semetic.

cyrnel · 10-23-2006, 05:39 AM

I agree with the take that PC means bastardization of our language for the least common denominator, but the OP involves a political dynamic. There will always be those who know better yet take advantage of those who don't, and the situation, for their own gain. I wish he hadn't lost his job over it but politicians live in this game of frogger every day and had better look both ways.

In the same light, the rest of us need to be vocal or that denominator may never learn.

highthief · 10-23-2006, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This reminds me of when I had a Jewish friend of mine tell me that the term shyster was anti-semetic.

Does it not derive from Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, the Jewish villain of the piece?

Ustwo · 10-23-2006, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

Does it not derive from Shylock in the Merchant of Venice, the Jewish villain of the piece?

No. When this came up a few years ago I had no idea so I searched quite a bit and it predates the play by a good amount. I think its been accepted as somehow anti-semetic due to the large number of Jewish lawyers, but all it really means is shit talker.

[Probably alteration of German Scheisser, son of a bitch, bastard, from scheissen, to defecate, from Middle High German schīzen, from Old High German skīzzan.]
shysterism shy'ster·ism n.

WORD HISTORY Calling someone a shyster might be considered libellous; knowing its probable origin adds insult to injury. According to Gerald L. Cohen, a student of the word, shyster is derived from the German term scheisser, meaning literally “one who defecates,” from the verb scheissen, “to defecate,” with the English suffix –ster, “one who does,” substituted for the German suffix –er, meaning the same thing. Sheisser, which is chiefly a pejorative term, is the German equivalent of our English terms bastard and son of a bitch. Sheisser is generally thought to have been borrowed directly into English as the word shicer, which, among other things, is an Australian English term for an unproductive mine or claim, a sense that is also recorded for the word.

shakran · 10-23-2006, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrnel

I wish he hadn't lost his job over it but politicians live in this game of frogger every day and had better look both ways.

Again, the man who said niggardly is not a politician. He is an aide to a politician. He's an employee of the city. Claiming he is a politician or should act like one would be the same as claiming the janitor in the white house should act presidential.

ratbastid · 10-23-2006, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Again, the man who said niggardly is not a politician. He is an aide to a politician. He's an employee of the city. Claiming he is a politician or should act like one would be the same as claiming the janitor in the white house should act presidential.

Well, that's just not true. An aide to a politician is very much in the political game. They may have been hired or appointed rather than elected, but it's still a political position. And an aide is very likely to run for something themselves in the future. We're definitely talking about a politician here. (Again, though, with the slippery-slope reducto-ad-absurdam to the white house janitor!)

I don't necessarily disagree with the points you're making (not going to bother quoting: I'm referring to your last post in which you responded to MY last post) in the context of plain old interpersonal communication. Politics is a different animal. Politicians have to be way more careful, and have to speak to a way lower denominator than you and I do. When the definition of "niggardly" became known, the complaint changed from racism to political unconsciousness. Again, I'm not convinced he deserved to lose his job over it, but you can't deny he spoke without thinking. There are consequences for that, especially in politics.

jorgelito · 10-23-2006, 08:27 AM

Again, he did not get fired, he resigned.

Bill O'Rights · 10-23-2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Again, he did not get fired, he resigned.

Really....seriously....in the world of politics, and in corporate America, fired and resigned are synonomous. There is no difference. Except that one can often involve the use of handcuffs when leaving the building. Beyond that...same thing.

jorgelito · 10-23-2006, 08:52 AM

Ok BOR, if you want to call a spade a spade then fine

. However, I still think there is a distinction between the two. If he was fired, then he was fired. Why say he resigned then? Is resigned the policitally correct term? Is resigned the new black? It seems really idiotic to use the two terms as the same meaning when in fact they are very different.

Bill O'Rights · 10-23-2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

It seems really idiotic to use the two terms as the same meaning when in fact they are very different.

I'm not going to argue that point.

KnifeMissile · 10-23-2006, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I wasn't aware of that. I'm assuming this is intended as an insult of some kind? In either case it doesn't change the fact that this is a reference to an ancient Greek idiom meaning to speak plainly, to use simple and direct language.

If my assumption that this usage is derogatory is correct, it makes very little sense to interpret the phrase this way because the phrase is a warning against substituting symbolic language for plain and direct language. It doesn't work if you're using symbolic language instead of common language.

This was exactly my point when I brought it up.

You didn't realize that a "spade" is derogatory because it's such an innocent word. "Niggardly" is an innocent word. You use the term "call a spade a spade" and someone gets offended 'cause they don't know or understand the idiom and, thus, interpret the phrase as meaning something different. The aide uses the word "niggardly" and someone gets offended 'cause they don't know the word and interpet it to mean something different. You explain what the idiom means and that it has nothing to do with black people. He explains what the word means and that it has nothing to do with black people. People stay angry at you because they can't be wrong and you must be a racist. People stay angry at the aide because the word has just got to be racist, no matter the etymology...

Quote:

Why would someone assume a more complex and derogatory message rather than the simple, obvious one?

Because the simple, obvious one wasn't so obvious while they were inflamed by the derogatory slur used in the phrase.

Seriously, does it make sense for a politician to use the word "nigger" in public? Obviously, the word "niggard," with a D at the end, must mean something else. However, people don't think rationally while they're offended which is why I claimed that political correctness has run amok...

highthief · 10-23-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

People stay angry at you because they can't be wrong ...

Frame that one. Put it in a sig and preserve it for posterity because it explains so much about the world.

magictoy · 10-23-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Don't slippery slope me. "Niggardly" isn't exactly in common usage, and it's perfectly understandable that somebody without a lot of education or a big vocabulary might draw unpleasant conclusions about that word.

You're very cocksure.

10-22-2006, 05:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	A while ago is right! 1999? LOL But it is a ridiculous story. Hopefully the guy went on to something better. It's pretty bad when one can't use the entirety of the English language because a word sounds like an insult. Even once they've learned that it's not?? You're right, it is stubborn. Stubborn and ignorant. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

10-22-2006, 07:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	I remember this very clearly, and it infuriates me that educated people are apparantly intended to dumb down their language to promote a standard of ignorance for the masses. Kinda wierd, I've actually wanted to use "niggardly" on more than one occasion, but yes, I refrain now. I don't think he should have quit, but of course there are many other things at play than we may be aware of. Intentions, intentions. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

10-22-2006, 07:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	niggardly = bad crack = ok Welcome to D.C. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-22-2006, 09:04 AM	#7 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	I really dont understand why the OP had to dig up a 7 year old story to raise the issue of political correctness. I have a smiliar reaction to the "crack" remark. Tony Williams has done more to bring the cityof DC together and move it ahead in his 8 years as mayor than anyone could have hoped following the Marion Berry era. The next mayor, Adrian Fenty, is a simlar intelligent, honest and dedicated political leader. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

10-22-2006, 10:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	He use a correct word for the situation, the word is not related to the word nigger, though someone unfamiliar with the word "niggardly" might take offense due to the superficial phonetic similarity between the words. Did the guy make an error, partly, you only use the words your audience will know, he was not wrong for using the word, just for using it with people who don’t know it. I use the saying 'pro bono' a lot, to do a service for free for the public good, as some of you know I do computer repair for a living, and for college students, I cut my rates, sometimes I do it for free, (specially when they are cute ) but on several occasions, the person I am talking with don’t know the word, and I get slapped, (pro bonner), one nice gentleman said 'I’m flattered, but I don’t swing that way'. Is using pro bono also wrong? No, it just has to be used with people who know its meaning. After these incidents I explained the saying, and everything is cool, that is what this David Howard should have done, noticed some one took offence, and quashed it then and there, apologies and explained the word has no relation to the n word, and given its definition. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

10-22-2006, 07:28 AM	#3 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Yeah, it's ridiculous, but I can see the other side of it. Look: the guy's a politician. He ought to know better than to do ANYTHING that could be misinterpreted by even the dumbest of the dumb. It was poor judgement. I don't think he deserves to lose his job for it, but it was a stupid choice of words.

10-22-2006, 09:23 AM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Niggardly? In my dictionary, between the word "niggardly" and it's definition, it says "often offensive". Do you know why it says that? Because it is. Because gookly and beanerly are also offensive. My people, the northern europeans, have not been enslaved (except by Bush) for hundreds and hundreds of years. The effects have worn off. The same is not true of black people. I have black friends who are still treated like crap for no other reason but they are black. That's leftovers from slavery. When racism stops, then maybe white people can say words that are or sound like nigger, nigga, nigro, etc. Right now, their anger is justified. I have no problem saying "fuck you" to anyone of any race, gender or creed, but using racial slurs isn't appropriate. That being said, asking someone to resign for saying "niggardly" is the real racism in this case. While I never use the "n" word, if I did and someone were to try and get me fired for it, I would rightously defend myself. It's a word. Yes, it's offensive, but it's just a word. It can only hurt you as much as you let it hurt you. If italians had a slave name for germans, then I'd not care one bit. You see, I've never been a slave. My ancestors were, but I am not.

10-22-2006, 03:23 PM	#14 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	Dictionary.com doesn't say its racist. Everyone grab your pitch forks and torches and lets go burn down apple! That'll teach 'em for not having that there word book right! I can find at least 3 plants off the top of my head where i work which bear the name 'xxxxxxx niger'. If someone wants to get offended because it is similar to nigger fine, but someone should warn niger (what the BBC now refers to as 'nee-jair', what was wrong with 'ni-ger?), or the taxinomists. I'm just gonna think of you as an idiot. __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

10-22-2006, 06:29 PM	#18 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	He has every right to use that word. But he can't complain if people get offended. I actually think it's a great word and rather apt in the given context. BUT, as a politician, it was a very poor choice of words. So, as a result, you suffer the consequences. I think there was a similar case when some politician used the term "tar baby" and caused all sorts of bedlam with it even though his usage of the term was quite correct and appropriate. Hey, that's politics. By the way, he was not fired, he resigned. Niger is not as bad (sounding) as niggardly. Part of the problem is that niggardly is not a often used word so it is "foreign" to many people so it is easily misheard as the pejorative. Given that's the case, then it would be wise to not use it, especially when there are plenty of other ways to decribe the situation. English is also a constantly evolving and changing language. Many words in use yesterday are no longer in use today. Many words that were acceptable yesterday are no longer acceptable today. Midget is one, same with retarded, handicapped, etc.... Try telling your kid to pick up the faggots in the backyard for disposal (a bundle of sticks). I almost punched out some British guy at the bar once when he asked me for a fag (a cigarette). Yes, they're just words. But think about it. They're more than that. Don't blame it on political correctness, that's a cop out. Otherwise, why should we have so many rules at TFP regarding "just words"? If they're just words then people should not get their panties in a wad when posters write a certain way right? They're just words, what's wrong with AZN? They're just words, what's wrong with saying "hey baby, nice legs let's see more" in tilted exhibition right" They're just words yet people get all twisted over analog, ustwo and others posts all the time. Hey, they're just words right? They're just words right? Then why can't I wear a t-shirt that says "We will not remain silent" at the airport? Just food for thought.....

10-23-2006, 05:30 AM	#28 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	This reminds me of when I had a Jewish friend of mine tell me that the term shyster was anti-semetic. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-23-2006, 05:39 AM	#29 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I agree with the take that PC means bastardization of our language for the least common denominator, but the OP involves a political dynamic. There will always be those who know better yet take advantage of those who don't, and the situation, for their own gain. I wish he hadn't lost his job over it but politicians live in this game of frogger every day and had better look both ways. In the same light, the rest of us need to be vocal or that denominator may never learn. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

10-23-2006, 08:27 AM	#34 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Again, he did not get fired, he resigned.

10-23-2006, 08:52 AM	#36 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Ok BOR, if you want to call a spade a spade then fine . However, I still think there is a distinction between the two. If he was fired, then he was fired. Why say he resigned then? Is resigned the policitally correct term? Is resigned the new black? It seems really idiotic to use the two terms as the same meaning when in fact they are very different. Last edited by jorgelito; 10-23-2006 at 08:56 AM..