Why I just can't respect the Amish...
 

First of all... if you're here to make commentary about the event that took place in the Amish school, you're in the wrong thread. I don't want that in here, because this isn't the thread for that.

Ok now...

I'd like to first say that I've never actively disrespected the Amish. I may have taken a light jab at their culture here or there, but I actually tend to leave them alone and stay away from the jokes about them. Why do I feel like I should go easy on them when I'll joke on any other culture with no problem? I honestly don't know. Maybe it's because i'd rather let them be, because they've certainly never hurt anyone.

But here's the thing...

The human species is naturally supposed to grow (mentally) and learn more and more. As generations pass, each new generation is naturally inclined to pass on their knowledge, so that the next generation can take that knowledge and expand on it, creating greater understandings of the world around them and to ensure the survival of the species.

So why is it that the Amish want to simply... stagnate?

Now I did think to myself... what about small groups of people around the planet that are still in "tribes" or "villages", who have not themselves become industrialized? Well, I don't have an answer for that. Most likely, it's because there are so few people (relatively speaking) that the learning curve per generation isn't all that big. That, and many of the biggest advances in technology throughout history have taken place because of just one person's discovery, or a group's discovery, of something new.

Here's the beef, though...

The Amish, however, KNOW exactly what is out there. They may not know the extent to which technology has grown, but they know of electricity, of modern medicine, and of many of the basic things we don't even blink at that leave them awe-struck. So they know all of this is out there, and that all they have to do is ask and they'll all be a part of it.

My thinking is that because they specifically refuse any change, I find it hard to respect that lifestyle choice. Shunning technology is one thing, but they specifically refuse any kind of change.

Is it just me that has a problem with a culture whose purpose and continuing mission is "nothing changes"?

Does anyone disagree with the notion that groups of people, cultures, are naturally inclined to growth in knowledge? If, then, a culture specifically says, "we will not change, we will not grow"... does that kind of intentional closed-mindedness make you think less of them, maybe? Or do you respect their desire to keep things to manual labor, to make life harder and worth more effort?

I have more tolerance for, and acceptance of, a religious sect or culture, as you described, that asks for nothing from the government and is not critical of those who dont share their beliefs than I do for some evangelical christian groups that condemn judges, politicians, social activists and anyone else they disagree with as "godless" and that want to instill their "values" on the country as a whole through the political process.

Their refusal to use cars, technology, etc., is not based simply on a refusal to change. Their belief is that these things, including mirrors and cameras, by the way, are materials of vanity that serve no purpose in their lives and beliefs. (A splinter group, the Mennonites, use cars, but chrome is blackened.)
They believe they are here to serve God and by living a humble life, they are doing God's work and what God wants of them.
They call us the 'English', speak old world German and don't have churches, but worship in designated homes.
It's getting harder for the younger ones to avoid assimilation; some have left their families, a very hard decision as they become shunned.
They don't necessarily eschew medicine and some technologies if there is no other way, they just don't make it a part of their life.
They are a very peaceful, well organized community, they are not completely so cut off that they don't interact; in Lancaster County, PA, there's a plethora of Amish businesses, mainly fine crafts and it's a major tourist area, but when taking the backroads, a very beautiful, buccolic countryside abounds.
I totally respect their lifestyle and sometimes wish we were closer to it. Look at us, stressed, wanting for things that do us no good, really, always wishing things for ourselves....selfish beings we are..when's the last time you picked up a hammer and saw and helped someone? The last time you planted your own food?
We hop in our cars and think we can beat our time from the last trip out by 10 minutes, speed our way to wherever to do...what? Hell, maybe they have it right and we're wrong

Analog, you might be interested to know that several Amish communities have fully equipped emergency centers, complete with telephones, computers, etc. The thought being that if they get into serious trouble somehow they can summon help.

It's not that they shun technology - they shun stuff they don't feel they need. And they're right. Despite their distinct lack of cars, phones, airplanes, and the internet, they manage to survive and live to ripe old ages.

As long as someone doesn't infringe on other people's rights, I dont' care what they do, and I won't deny them respect just because they "stagnate"

Also, the idea that the human species is "meant" to do anything is a logical fallacy. To say that we are meant to do something is to say that we were specifically designed by something to do it. Unless you're prepared to discount evolution, that's simply not true.

I think it all depends on what your definition of advancement of growth is. Are we growing technologically, or spiritually, and if one and not the other, is this really a good thing.

What's more important, making a faster car that burns clean fuel, or becoming enlightened and understanding the universe we live in?

I personally think the Amnish are extremeists, and are going about it all wrong, no question. However they don't feel this way, and honestly, when I look at all the stress the modern world causes, it would indeed be nice to embrace seomthing simpler. There really should be room for the past and the present, but I don't begrudge them their beliefs, though I do think they are misguided.

Many Amish actually carry cell phones. It's not the technology that's the problem, it's the effect that the technology has on their faith and their society. They see the cell phone as a tool for communication and connectedness.

I have a lot of respect for a community that can stay so true to its principles in the face of the onslaught of modern culture.

As far as i can tell, the amish live a compeletely sustainable lifestyle and that's pretty respectable. See if you still can't respect the amish when the price of oil goes through the roof and you have to pay a whole lot more than you do now for everything while they remain mostly unaffected.

Being someone who no longer drives thats not somethign I have to worry about. Though I live in china now and most walks or rides bikes. however since their are zero emission cnotrols the air hwere is much worse then in america, since more and more ppeople drive or ride motorbikes. The Amish are lucky here. Horse and buggy might be slow, but only by product there is good old fashioned manure, and they can even use that to grow more food. All and all, I wouldn't mind tryig that lifestyle out for a while, though I don't think it would suite me in the long term.

Consequently, the Amnish encourage their young people to go out into the world for a year when they come of age, if they choose to, and they are welcome to return. They want them to understand both the outside world, and see why they live as they do. A good practice of illuminating your beliefs by studynig their opposite, in a sense. While most young adults return, some do not, and this is fine and good by them, weeds out the believers from those who are not truly suited to live as Amnish. Some don't go on this little journey until they are into their mid, even late 20's, some never do. Good practice.

I don't know how much longer the Amnish will hold on, hopefully a good long time, they act as a reminder to us of the past, simpler times, and perhaps teach some people that happiness can be found without all of the fancy doo dads we have now, or the constant striving for more.

Oh and folks the Amnish use money just like us, but in ther own community they will just as often barter. Interesting people, misguided in many ways, but certainly interesting.

There are people in the world who don't respect Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Those people might consider paving over Utah to be "progress."

Personally, I could do without the technology that subjects me to a barrage of information about quite a few people--Tom Cruise, Paris Hilton, Barry Manilow ...

When the power goes out for a day, welcome to Amish country.

Well not quite, they still have the needed technology to survive and thrive without electricity, we mostly don't.

There is nothing special about the modern age in terms of people, nothing special about change for change sake. I happen to enjoy the culture I'm part of for the most part, but its not a whole hell of a lot different from the life of a roman, we replaced the slaves with machines and industrialization, but the life outlook seems very much the same.

The Amish lifestyle does not appeal to me, but I can see the appeal.

How often do Amish get cancer?
How many Amish people are obese?
How many Amish people die from heart disease?
How much carbon monoxide do the Amish release into the atmosphere?

Everyone is focusing on trying to make me respect the Amish for some reason, when my entire opening post was about how they decide to keep themselves stagnant and never evolve mentally, as a culture. They intentionally keep thselves from advancing, growing, etc.

This has nothing to do with their religion, or beliefs, or any crap like that. I intentionally said I don't disrespect the Amish, but I take issue with them that makes it hard for me to respect what they're doing.

I'm talking about the underlying issue of an entire culture intentionally limiting their own growth and learning, as a whole, and what that means in the big picture- as it relates to denying our very nature of adapting to change, and learning.

Hmm, well I don't know if anyone has cared enough to do a study of the Amnish to see how many get cancer. Of course some do, that's just common sense, but how many I have no clue. Likely it is a lower numbr then us English of course.

As for fat amnish, I have seen some, but no, not a lot. They work for a living, and work hard, of course they weigh less.

As to the rest, there ae not that many of them, so an overall comparison would be hard, if anyone even gave enough of a damn to do a study, which I think they don't.

Personally, if I liked butter, churning it myself would not appeal to me. Like I said, mix the old and the new, but don't cling to a single extreme to the exception of secluding yourself from the rest of the world, that certainly is not good. Like I said, their goal to reach a closer state in relation to God is misguided and ass backwards, but thats their choice, I really don't give a hoot.

I mostly feel sorry for the women. Like any cult, often times the women suffe the most. Amnish women have known no different, but their time is spent doing twice as much work as the man, usually more, doing work that today is considered two full time jobs. Imagine how hard their work is without the modern conveniences of today. The Amnish man has it easy compared to his women. Sad.

I think you are making an assumption that cultural growth and societal learning are somehow the whole point of human existence.

So, if one buys into your unsubstantiated thinking on the neccessity for cultures to evolve to use cars and computers, you may be right. But since the premise you put forth is pretty shaky to begin with, I don't know how many people will agree with you.

That's the New Order / Beachy Amish, which the more traditional Amish do not consider to be Amish at all.

Your idea of progress is vague. Many people who have responded have not tried to make you respect them, but to throw into relief your concept of what "progress" is. It would be helpful if you gave us a bit more of a detailed idea of how you find the Amish to be "stagnant."

You are taking for granted that the Western concept of "change"and "progress" are those most in line with human nature.

Why force someone to do what they dont want to do? Amish dont bother anyone but I have learned a lot from them by being nosy.

If the world goes to hell tomorrow THEY will be able to make it while we sit around mourning the loss of all this technology thatwe dont know how to live without.

People spend too much time judging others and being closedminded these days.

I tried to think of a good way to answer this. I decided that a photo montage was in order.....

http://www.calshop.biz/piercing.jpg

modern culture.....

http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos...elsey_t180.jpg

modern culture.....

http://radiostudio.ru/images/342586633900b.jpg

modern culture....

http://www.willisms.com/archives/crimegunviolence.gif

modern culture....

http://www.oldcoloradoalmanac.com/images/law/rapes.gif

modern culture....

http://cms.clevelandclinic.org/baria.../ban_guide.jpg

modern culture.....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Pride_2004.jpg

modern culture.....

http://img.stern.de/_content/50/29/5...prozac_250.jpg

modern culture.....

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/heroin_cp_4736119.jpg

modern culture....

My point with all this?

There is nothing advanced, evolved or superior about our culture. We have some great toys, we have made some great scientific advances, we have wealth far greater than any past civilization, but as a people, we are the same.

And the OP:

If you'll notice, neither of these require advanced technology. Each generation passes on it's knowledge to the next very well in Amish culture, because the schools are notoriously good and the parents play a very active role. Some would argue that the dissemination of knowledge from parents to children in Amish culture is much better than 'modern culture' and in that respect they're "growing" more than we are.

Futhermore, your assertion that they're rejecting our "nature of adapting to change" seems quite vague. "Adapting" to a change does not mean that you have accept that change. Some of the most succesful organisms (dictyostelium discoideum comes to mind) adapt best to change by waiting it out. When their environment becomes threatened, they eject a chemical called cAMP, merge together as one organism, expand into a stalk, and wait. They're not massively evolving, mutating, or developing sophisticated technology. They've got something that works - wait out the storm. In a way, I think the Amish do the same thing.

If I were to be religious, I'd go with the Amish. It seems there are waaaaaaaaaaaay too many Christians, Catholics, Mormons, and the like who are only religious because it's the best of two choices. If there's a hell, they're good to go. If were to truly devote myself to an all-knowing diety, I'd have to go all-in. Drop the material possessions, drop the foolish devotion to modern idols, and really live the simple, Biblical life.

I'm interpreting this as you mean that in a technological way. If you mean in a more general way, how do we know that the Amish aren't expanding upon and passing on their *knowledge*?

As others have said here, they know about it, they just don't want it. You and I both don't want kids, yet I know I am sometimes inundated with judgement, both direct and implied, regarding my choice and resultant lifestyle. I see this as a similar decision.

It would be different if their choices put their children at risk, say if they needed a life-saving medical procedure and the Amish parents refused to allow modern medicine to treat the child (or any other Amish person, for that matter), then I'd have a big problem with it. But I don't think they do things that way, do they?

I can see though, that it may seem unfair in a way that they refuse to be part of, *contribute* to the society that protects them and provides for them. But I think some would say that they do contribute to society by being what they are. *shrug* To some they are a beacon of light in a dark industrial world. To others they are a living tourist attraction.

Once again, just because they aren't growing their technology doesn't mean that they aren't growing in knowledge. And I don't think that making a choice to live a certain way necessarily indicates "closed-mindedness". It's not a choice I would make, but it's a lot better in my mind than other lifestyle choices that are far more common today.

I am very glad that they have their kids go out into the world for a year (although I don't know that that's long enough, but whatever). It doesn't seem that people are forced into that lifestyle, but I would imagine that making the choice to join the rest of modern society and in a very real sense losing their family would be a terribly difficult one. Do they really get *shunned*?

Something I've wondered about though--at some point in human history, the technologies they use now were the very cutting edge. So why chose *that* particular era? Why not go back to say, pre-columbus native American lifestyle?

There's nothing to say they have limited their own growth and learning. A better question, from the other side is, why must they accept and adapt if their culture works for them? You live in a southern state, correct? Have you assimilated and acquired the accent, a love of NASCAR and hunting? Go to a Baptist church? They may not rely on the conveniences of 'modern life', but they haven't ignored them either.
Ustwo, that was pretty good. We're a strange bunch, for all our 'evolution'....
Yes, those that chose to 'join the english world' do so with the knowledge that they are no longer a part of the family they left. But, judging by the size of the community still, I'd wager it happens rarely.

I take no issue with the Amish. Its not something I would choose to do, but I see nothing wrong with that life style. In an odd sort of way I grew up similar to them.

We used technology, but my grandparents are just now getting electricity. Theyve had a generator for a while, but most of the lights, are gas lights, gravity fed water, gas refridgerator, and stove, etc etc.

My father did much the same, we always had large gardens, and provided about half of our own food. The community we live in, rural farming, could and would easily join together to mutually provide almost everything we need, including horses, beef, pork, eggs, chicken etc etc should the world go to shit tomorrow.

Granted, we use technology to do some of that, and for the most part I think we are doing it a better way than the Amish....

After Ustwo's photo montage... Sometimes I wonder if the price is worth it, for all the extraneous technology we have. The Amish have a nice life.

... Because they wear flip-flops, right?

Amish faith requires them to influence their neighbors primarily by being excellent examples - moral, contented people and good neighbors. They will explain their beliefs if asked, but will not push them on you, and will not condemn you for believing differently. They try to actually live up to biblical teachings of forgiveness, charity, and non-violence.

A consequence of this is that they must be especially careful to be mindful of the biblical instruction to “be in the world, but not of the world.” They are perfectly aware that electricity is not sinful. But they also think it is increasingly difficult to keep their separateness the more tightly integrated they become into worldly society. Consequently, they draw necessarily arbitrary lines and say “Up to here is acceptable, past it is not.”

It seems nonsensical that they will use generators to power electric machinery but will not connect to the grid, until you follow their reasoning. Then you realize it is perfectly logical, even if you don’t agree with them. Amish do not reject electricity; they reject being tied into the power grid. And they reject the grid not for technological reasons but for the implied integration into the rest of society. They are willing to do without the power grid (which they admit would be a convenience) because they see it as one example of a “camels nose under the tent” that will eventually lead to assimilation.

One must admit that their willingness to come to a decision based on moral analysis and then actually follow through is admirable, even if you disagree with the particular line drawn.

I think that's what you're missing. it IS about their religion and beliefs. It may seem "stagnant" to you because they don't hold the same things dear as you do. The Amish have changed in ways over the years, but they are hard to categorize because the changes are different from community to community. They discuss technologies and decide what they will and won't allow in their own community. Some communities will allow telephones, but usually not in the house so an not to discourage face to face communication. Some allow electricity, though usually stored in 12 volt batteries instead of power lines so as not to encourage laziness. They are a bit odd, but I "get" them more than I get evangelical christians that try to push their viewpoints on others.

I think this has more to do with your definition of growth and what people/cultures are "supposed" to do.

There's a great book out there by Daniel Quinn called My Ishmael. It goes deep into tribal society and what has happened to the world since the development of "takers" and keeping things under lock and key. The subject was dealt with losely in the movie Instinct starring Cuba Gooding Jr. and Anthony Hopkins. It's a very good movie that was inspired by the book mentioned above.

Your question really goes to the heart of the purpose/meaning of life. If you take issue with the Amish lifestyle I think you do have less respect for them. The same could apply in how they think of "modern" people.

Some families have both parents work (making more money) while others live on less with just one parent working. Who's to say which is better? I think that comes down to the actual people living the life. Some people like the city and others like the country. Some like rock and some like country.

To me the important thing is do you live a fullfiiled life and are you happy.

It's ironic. The Amish shun technology and they are noble for it. A group of hippies decide to shun technology and live on a commune and we make fun of them for it.

I'm all for letting people do what they want but I'm with Analog on this. If everyone went the way of the Amish we'd still be thinking the world is flat.

I have problems with the Amish lifestyle as well.

Because of their insular society, the have serious inbreeding issues. Lots of health and mental problems.

They are incredibly unforgiving. Once you cross them or their ways, you don't get back. That goes for children that may choose a different way or whatnot.

They shun all things modern, that means tech and ideas. Things that affect those outside such as some not wanting to use blinkers or reflective tape on their buggies. A resistance to modern farming ideas like contour farming that reduces erosion. This leads to a buildup of Nitrates, phosphates and particulate in the Chesapeake Bay watershed.
They are very destructive environmentally. They, generally don't care for stewardship of the earth, as our existance here is actually a punishment, not a gift. They do not live by the 'giver' attitudes written about in Ishmael.

Their treatment of their women and children is, IMO, cruel and inhumane.

They are also incredibly rude and their children are the spawn of hell when they come across outsiders.

It's a culture I hope dies out one way or another very soon.

Since when is a VW microbus shunning technology?

When a hippie commune lasts for several generations let me know, but its a poor anology on many levels.

Now I dont know what the Amish teach about science, perhaps they do teach the world is flat (though I doubt it), but I'm trying to think how knowing the world is mostly round made me a better person and I can't come up with any way it did.

Respect doesn't require agreement.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96711&page=1
Thanks for the troll.

They typically stop education after the 8th grade. If the law requires schooling up to a certain age, they will usually repeat the 8th grade until they reach that age.

Well, interestingly enough, the Amish are calling for forgiveness, something you hear rarely if at all among "modern" communities, especially religious ones.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/04/ami...ing/index.html

I don't know. I am pretty impressed by that personally. In a way, it is more advanced than we are.

I assume that you'd not respect Christian Scientists for shunning medicine in the same vein?

Jews for not eating non kosher food?

Islamics for dressing covered and also eating only halal food.

Why be all up in someone else's business when their business doesn't affect you at all? In fact if they try very hard so that their business doesn't impact you in the slightest?

I did see one time a family of Amish here in Times Square. I don't know what they were doing here or why, but they were ooohing and aahing.

Comments that weren't worthy of the space they were posted in.

*edited*
I'm glad hippies in a commune have a application fee. A planned community is a far cry from a hippie commune, its more like an exclusive social club where you have to be accepted by the community before you can join based on your character. Most hippie communes had issues with sanitation and health risk, dirty hippie is more than a stereotype.

But thanks for taking offense.

And all Jews are shylocks, and Hitler should have finished the job.

Sounds real nice, Belt. Just make blanket accusations about an entire religion and hope for their demise.

But what is wrong with what I've said?

They are inbred, and becoming moreso because they have been marrying between the same limited number of families for tens of generations.

Their concept of shunning is well known. Once you do something that displeases them, they go out of their way to avoid you forever.

I've 'worked' with many amish for a year when I was working with the Soil Conservancy in Lancaster. To say they were resistant to changing horrendous farming practices is an understatement. With few exeptions they won't even listen to you.

Their women have little rights. Are forced wrap themselves and cloister almost as bad as Burkha'd muslim women. Their opinions are discounted out of hand, they have no say in the direction of their family or community. Husband is master.

They treat human life with little regard. I read in the Lancaster New Era every month or so of a father who sent his young son into a thresher to clean out a jam and then closed the bin and went to work, forgetting about the child inside. Gruesome deaths like that are common. Children should not be used as such in heavy farm machinery.

They see no need for English courtesies. Their lives are purposefully dour. Their children, because they are so different are treated badly by 'our' children. In addition to that, they see our kids living bright, carefree lives in comparision. This makes the kids pretty hardened against us.
You find the occasional nail in a board near amish communities on the road. And groups of kids occasionally throw things at lonely passing cars.

I'm not saying this all second hand. This is all my own experience with the community.

I don't want them to die off, just to assimilate some with society. They need to face reality like the mennonites have.

I don't like the idea of close-mindedness, period. However, I do not think that is something that all Amish are. Limited schooling, and the shunning of technology does not mean there is no growth. Some of our most brilliant minds dropped out of highschool, or had little schooling. "School" does not equal "Learning."
The Amish may not apply their knowledge in terms of advancement, but we have not found advancement to be a necessity yet. In fact, advancement has brought alot of suffering, polarization, and death with it's benefits. Either way, they are their own society.

1) recent studies have shown that inbreeding isn't as dire as you might think. After all, royalty has been inbreeding for hundreds of years in Europe and I don't see any of them walking around with 3 arms.

2) This effects you how?

This effects you how?


This effects you how? In reality it's only going to effect THEIR fields. And since they aren't looking for the mega-yields the corporate farmer wants, they're not gonna give a damn.


1) Bullshit. They wear dresses. When they go outside they wear bonnets. No face-hiding hoods, and if you see their wrist or their ankle, no one gets mad.

2) This effects you how?

This effects you how?



Yes we all saw that the other day as they cried and comforted each other after the kids were shot.

Idiotic examples that have plenty of parallels in other societies. Remember a couple of years ago when dads were leaving little kids to cook to death in the car all day? Guess that means regular American society has little regard for human life too.

Nor should they be left in minivans all day.


Why should they? They're not english.

Oh, and. . This effects you how?

yes, they believe in being plain. This effects you how?

Then our children should stop being such collossal assholes. Or perhaps their collossal asshole parents should step in and maybe, I dunno, teach the kids about diversity?

Seems like the reverse is true- - you're pretty bloody hardened against the Amish.


You find that ANYWHERE. Kids are assholes no matter what culture they're in.

Wow, kids from the rest of America NEVER throw things at cars do they?

Your examples are, so far, utterly asinine.

That's nice. most of it doesn't effect YOUR life in the least, and the stuff that does is perpetrated in even greater numbers by members of non-Amish America.

Sorry Chi, but the concept of polarization is hardly a new one, and has been around always, whether there be technology or not, just look at the inquisition if you want a good example of it. May be worse now ebcause of technology and the media, but it's always been there.

As for suffering, sorry, thats always been there to. Honestly, you talk as if tech is the devil. Is is a two edged sword, like anything else. You sound like an absolutist. If you don't wish to sound this way, qualify your statements with some kind of positive, instead of just focusing on the negative.

No, school doe's not "necessarily" equal learning, but is does more often then not equal learning.

Let's not get so focused on the enlightened Amnish and their grandiose social experimnt that we don't see the forest for the trees. They are indeed harmful to the environment with their oudates farming practices. They do for the most part treat their women as second class citizens, and they do work there kids in ways that break a lot of the "outside" worlds child labor laws. Lets get real here, there are better ways to live once you get off of the whole starry eyes moonbeam profound philosophical view of their whole return to earth and nature lifestyle.

Oh yes, and if you ask better for who then I say gimmie a break and stop splitting hairs, better for them if they knew any better, and certanly better for their kids.

Sorry Kensei, but polarization within a given civilizaion tends to grow over time. It usually reaches a pinnacle right as the ciuvilization is about to fall. Don't belive me? Read Collapse by Jared Diamond. Also, Ch'i never said that polarization is new. He said that it comes with advancement, which is true. Let's avoid Strawman arguments, as they slow down the discussion.

*Remember*, we are not talking about all time. The Amish are only a few hundred years old, not unlike our own civilization.

Still lusting over that straw hat, I see.

Wow. Its amazing how much someone can misunderstand a post, interject, and project their own thoughts into what someone else says. You need to read more carefully Kensei.

Your speaking in vague generalities, and easy thing to do, I'll admit. First off, why don't you explain polarization to the rest of us. Also, lets not impugn someone for slowing down an arguement, I only see you doing that by sidetracking things. Your a smart guy obviously, but don't go out of your way to try and prove it, thats just sad.

I must admit it amazes me when someone joins a community and then, not 24 hours after he first became a member, busies himself insulting a well respected and very established member.

Now, if WR were actually being a pompus ass, I'd follow that paragraph with one attacking him. But he wasn't.

Seems to me that he's making arguments that you either don't understand or can't think of a counter to, so you're making personal attacks.

That kind of crap doesn't fly around here.

Where are these recent studies that show that the effects of inbreeding aren't dire? Amish communities have been inbreeding for over 200 years and their pool of available mates is far smaller than the pool of mates available to European royalty over the same period. Inbreeding has few benefits. The only one I can think of is the opportunity for research. Researchers flock to Amish communities to study them and the many disorders that are a result of their inbreeding. For a news reference: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...ountry?mode=PF

It's perfectly reasonable to respect the Amish, but their mating patterns do lead to many genetic abnormalities which in turn lead to increased human suffering.

An argument from effect doesn't make much sense to me. Suffering of all kinds here and abroad may not affect me directly, but I can still care about its existence and hope for its end.

Does anyone have any evidence for or against the claims of misogyny among the Amish? I don't have any evidence either way, but I have heard claims of misogyny before.

I don't know whether or not Amish children are treated poorly. And if they are, whether it is widespread. However, whether or not the same abuses are present in non-Amish american society is irrelevant. Is your argument the anthropological equivalent of "But Clinton did it to!"?
I'm not sure how comparing Superbelt's comments to Hitler is helpful. It rarely seems to be in threads I've seen. I also don't think he hoped for their demise. Rather, he hoped for the demise of their culture.

I certainly feel sympathy for the loss this community has experienced, but that is not the topic of this thread. I do think that some of the cultural practices of the Amish are problematic. Whether or not other cultures evidence the same problems is irrelevant.

Sure. Polarization is a sharp division, as of a population or group, into opposing factions. An example would be Charles Dickens. Has Willravel lost his mind? What does Charles Dickens have to do with polarization? Yes, I've lost my mind, but bear with me. Read Dickens' works. Consider the effects of the Industrial Revolution in the UK. It brought about massive unemployment, slums, substantial social disorder, and, yes, polarization. While in that case it eventually strengthened the managment and improved governance...stability took a long time and costed many lives. What we are talking about is essentially the growing pains of civilization. Those pains are massive and the effects are far reaching.
Not only am I smart, but I have a really hot wife....but that is for a different thread. My impugnage was a warning intended to teach you the ways of TFP. Threadjacking is something to be avoided, and so are fallacies.

Oh, and welcome to TFP! :thumbsup:

You've never looked at a pedigree for a dog or cat have you?

Hold on to this thought. It's important in a minute.


And that's my point. The Amish are CHOOSING to live a life that we view as suffering, but which they view as normal and in fact necessary if they want to get into heaven. I'm a proponent of freedom of choice, so as long as what the Amish are doing does not negatively effect me or the rest of non-Amish society, I'm not going to rag on them for it.


No, and a 3 minute think session would show you why. Superbelt said:

And he listed a bunch of arguments that basically amounted to "because they don't think like me"

So I was pointing out that wanting a society to die out OR change simply because they're not like your society is asinine, and was further pointing out that they're not as different from our society as he makes them out to be.

Nice try though. I'll give you that much.

i am not particularly interested in the main questions posed in this thread (sorry)--like the illusion of some teleology behind human history that inclines folk to move on way or another culturally--nor am i particularly interested in whether people like the amish or not.

but i am interested in the views being advanced about amish farming practices and am wondering where they come from--what documentation they rely on, for example--what sources, where one might go for a more detailed understanding of what these problems might be. i have been doing some research on them and frankly have found references to things like manure run-off and the chesapeake, but have also found alot about correction of them.

but smaller scale, diversified crop oriented farming hardly seems like a stupid idea. in fact, it seems like something you will see more and more of over time.
and the problems of equating corporate dominated food production in the u.s. with "progress" is another matter...read "the omnivore's dilemma" for starters.

Omnivore's Dilemma is fantastic. It is a perfect explaination of industrial, organic, and the hunter/gatherer. I would reccomend it to anyone who wants to be more familair with what you're eating. Also, it comes reccomended from roachboy. More importantly, the organic aspect of the book speaks directly to what is being discussed here: the supposed lack of progress that is actually a brilliant system that sustains a community efficiently.

A lot of people, myself included, have lost touch with where our clothing, food, furniture, etc. all come from. I could probably build a desk if I wanted to, but building a house would be beyond me. I can fish, but raising cattle would be beyond me. It's stuff like this that we take for granted, and the Amish are adept at.

Purebreed dogs have serious health problems. Dalmations for instance have a brain that grows too large for its skull cavity, putting pressure that drives them blind and into serious pain. Others regularly develop chronic joint problems and premature organ failures. These are direct results of bad genes being carried through a limited population.

What goes on in their communities doesn't effect us much, beyond the safety issues of their buggies and unnecessary nutrient runoff from their farms.
I'm mostly disappointed..

I don't advocate 'invading their communes, killing their leaders and converting them to average Americans'. I'm not saying we should interfere at all.
But I am going to say from my POV they waste their lives and continue it with their children.
It's just sad, and don't value their choice.

Theres a pecking order here based on amount of time one is a member? Really?

Well, I was not aware I had to be a member for a year and a day to disagree with someone, or show scorn, or anything else for that matter, I will keep this in mind, and show the proper deference to those who have been here longer.

Not at all. You are, however, quite new and it takes all of us - myself included - some time to adjust to a community. When I first joined I got into it with a member named Halx. I later found out that he is the owner and operator of TFP. He was patient but forward with me.

The pecking order is like that found in any other community. Imagine that I am an employee in a company you are new to. We have the same job, neither of us is in a superior position, but I have over 2 years experience. It simply means that I am more integrated and familiar.
Showing scorn is something you should monitor whether you're on an online forum, at work, or in school. The same can be said of sarcasm. TFP is a community just like any other, with it's social norms. Some people do choose to test or even break the limits of that norm. If I may make a humble suggestion: only test or break those norms in situations that are important enough to run the risk of social outcast or even banning. Pick your battles.

Kensei,

Everyone is new to a community at one time or another. When you registered, you were directed to read the guidelines, I'm assuming.

If not, they can be found here.

It's not that there's a pecking order, it's just that we frown upon sarcasm, condescension, and/or patronizing as a means of communication. It doesn't allow for effective discussion.

Generalist production equals a low standard of living. Civilization is about specialization. Omnivores Dilemma is an interesting book, but I don't think we will be in the 100 mile diet anytime soon.

Yawn, I find your surperior tone annoying, I think I have to ignore you. Bye bye.

actually, after a discussion with willravel, it seems there was some confusion that I was interjecting my moderating with him instead of with you. You are free to use the ignore button, but there is no need to be arrogant about it.

I have corrected it and please read below, also note, you cannot put moderators on ignore much to the dismay of some members of our community.

quick moderator injection:
And if you can't monitor it yourself, the community self polices for the most part using the REPORT POST button or even just helping the member get their sea legs as shown in the previous few posts directed at you from community members.

Sometimes we moderators see people straying early on in their participation with the community and we try to steer them into a good contributing member. This does not mean we agree or disagree with their points of view, we just want civil discourse (read: no flame wars or personal attacks.)

And sometimes, we see someone who isn't going to be a contributing member not matter what the community or the staff says. Those are pretty apparent and we give them enough rope to hang themselves and given time, they eventually do.

and back to your discussion thread.

*edited text*

Actually polarization is a sharp division, however you did not explain the why of it. Clearly you do not know, so I will tell all the folks out there.

Polarization happens, as it is now, because of technology, less personal communication between people, especially those of differing views then our own.

It can happen in any circumstances, be it more, or less developed countries, nations etc. However technology has increased the problem. What with the advent of the internet, cell phones, and other technology that tends to isolate us, we tend to not get out and met, talk to others. we do however tend to talk to, chat with others who have similiar beliefs to our own.

What with the isolating effect of recent technology, less and less people talk to or experience different ways of thinking or doing things besides their own, and that of others like them.

This kind of isolation leads to a lot of intolerance of the personal beliefs, thoughts, feelings, of others who do not agree with us, as well as a lot les acceptance in general. Intolerance and lack of acceptence lead to poor, or just plain no communication going on. Hence people don't really learn much beyond what they already know, and those like them who have "accepted their own point of view.

So, what you end up with is everyone splitting up into lots of little groups, each with their own set of beliefs, and each just as unwilling to embrace or even consider the thoughts and ideas of any other group. Worse still their all gathering together has a sort of mob mentality effect, with each encouraging the other within that group, nd making them even more resistant to hearing the thoughts, ideas of others. The ideas they cling to can end up taking on a life of their own, bringing the group together, and the identities of the very people belonging to that group can often become tied up with those idea's, and the group itself, which often becomes indivisible from the group itself. It has a self reinforcing effect really. This is polarization.

It is much worse now of course, because of the technology and the isolating effect it has on us as people, but it has always been there.

*edited text*

This post reads better without the tiresome personal comments. Warnings come next.

I guess there are many facets to be considered. The Amish's steadfast embrace of spirituality, rejection of technological advance and the close knit community that is part of their culture.

All these elements have both good and bad sides. They lack the general enlightenment and intellectualism which is attainable for members of the mainstream modern culture. This modern culture does, however, also produce empty materialism in which the individual is disinclined to seek advancment of their mind in intellectual and cultural matters. Hence the question from the original post often becomes an argument between spirituality and materialism. . Of course the relaxation of the rigid structure of society which allows such freedom also leads to some dilapidation at the edges of society.

The progress and enlightenment you praise is not apparent in the entire body of modern culture, only in part of it. Though the Amish lack this they also have the kind of spirituality that many people regard as better than the stagnation apparent in parts of the modern culture.

Not all purebred dogs have serious (or even not-so-serious) health problems. And a great many of those health problems are caused by poor breeding (letting a trait continue by continuing to breed the dog with the trait) rather than being caused by inbreeding.

Where did you get this? I've been looking all over the net and can't find ANY documents on this.

Actually they're the direct results of bad genes being allowed to breed period. If an Amish guy has a dominant gene for early onset alzheimers, he's going to pass it on to his kids whether he has the kids with his cousin or a complete outsider.

But that unnecessary nutrient runoff, again, only effects THEM. If they want to strip their fields of nutrients (hasnt' happened yet I notice) then that's their choice.

As to the safety issues of their buggies - - yeah, every once in awhile we hear about some jerk that plowed into a buggy, but then we also hear about people running over bicycle riders too.


And I'm disappointed in your attitude toward them, but I don't wish for you to die out ;)


Never thought you did - if you did advocate that the discussion would have turned toward psychological counselling ;)



Well saying that you don't "value their choice" is quite different from hoping they die out. I'm glad to see your attitude has shifted to this one.

You never looked at the link I provided, have you? The effects of inbreeding in pets or humans are unpleasant.
Does your position here extend to positions on other issues as well? Setting aside the Amish, if the choices a group of people make have negative consequences on other people in that community that are without choice, as long as it doesn't affect you, you don't have a problem with it? That's fine if that's your position. It's different from my own. I'm just trying to understand.

So, the example cited by superbelt is not representative of the Amish in the same way that a kid dying in a minivan is not representative of American society. This argument is dependent on both societies generally having respect for human life. If the evidence points to a lack of respect for human life (or women or children) among the Amish, then the argument doesn't work. A cultural lack of respect for life is not equivalent to an individual incident in a minivan (or vice versa). The only evidence I have seen, other than what I have cited above regarding inbreeding, is your claims that it is just a difference in clothing and Superbelt's claims that they take huge risks with their children (like having them climb into running threshers). I suspect the truth lies somewhere between. Regarding the misogyny/respect for children claims, I don't know enough about the Amish to judge.
I do agree that the existence of annoying kids in a culture is not a good enough reason to wish the demise of that culture.

I think that the comments about annoying kids detracts from the argument, but I do think that a stronger argument for change could be made from the inbreeding/misogyny position. I also think that the original argument for change was made from more than a "they're different from me" position.

Do I get a cookie? Or maybe a gold star? An "A" for effort?

Time to inject humor...... well past time but wtf..... Humor WILL be injected now.....

This issue with inbreeding is not dominant genes, it's recessive genes. Most genetic disorders are a result of deleterious recessive genes. Deleterious recessive genes are maintained in populations because they are recessive. Dominant deleterious genes are selected out of gene pools very quickly. If you combine deleterious recessive genes with inbreeding, you significantly increase the chance of their expression.

that may be true, however it's the Amish way to not marry outside of the Amish. Even if inbreeding led to them growing 2 heads, it wouldn't hurt anyone but the Amish.

Again, I believe in freedom of choice. If the entire society CHOOSES to do something, that's up to them, as long as it's not hurting OTHER societies.

thank you for that, I've been fighting posting it for two days lol

:thumbsup: :icare: any time Shani...... humor and making a smile should be what life is about not stressing out over how other's live.

Thanks. I understand your position and disagree. I believe in the freedom of choice as well. I have no problem with adults making choices for themselves. I do have a problem when adults make choices that adversely affect others without choice. Kids don't have a choice to be born with degenerative disorders. If adults have the choice to prevent that, I think that they should. I'm not going to force changes in mating practices, but I can certainly disagree with those mating practices.

Just a quick note, Superbelt did NOT say he hoped they died out. He said he hoped the *culture* died out.

Regarding the rest, I suppose of course that everyone is allowed to have opinions, and to disagree with other's opinions, but it would appear that Superbelt is the only person in this thread to have actually worked with and interacted with the Amish at all--if I am incorrect, please do correct me.

Therefore, I have to give his (*his*, yes?) input a bit more attention than others, of course weighing in the facts that I don't know him, his character, his motives, etc.

Why does this thought make me giggle a little? :lol:

I roam the land in my tireless search for cultures with sub-optimal mating practices, forcing them to accept my far superior methods (and moves). I've done it with the Mennonites. If the Amish aren't careful, I'll do it with them. I am inbreeding (inbred?) man!

Kensei, I suggest that we continue our discussion on polarization in another thread. This thread is about the Amish.

OK, now I'm laughing a lot! But wouldn't that make you "Outbred Man"?

Do you have a Big Pink "O" on your chest? :suave:

Yes, it would, but I thought it was funnier to call myself inbred. I sacrificed accuracy for (likely weak) humor.

And, no I don't have an "O". Oddly, I do have an "I" (a very large vertical scar).

Which amounts to the same thing. The Amish aren't gonna change voluntarilly. The only way for the Amish culture to go away would be for the Amish to die.



You are. More years ago than I care to admit I worked in Amish country. You cannot live in the area without learning a LOT about the Amish - especially since you have to be quite careful where you point the camera, and in areas where the Amish and everyone else mingle, you have to get to know the Amish so they understand that you know not to take their pictures.

This article might help folks understand why I get pissy when people denigrate the Amish for no good reason:

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs...WS01/603150346

This is not an isolated event. This is just how the Amish operate.

Huh. I guess Amish are people--Good and bad, just like everyone else.

That's an *amazing* story. How wonderful that things like that happen in the world. Can you imagine what the world would be like if folks in the Middle East handled things in the same spirit?!?

Thank you for correcting me gently. :icare:

To get myself back on topic:

The human species is naturally supposed to grow mentally and learn more and more? I disagree. Nearly all evolutionary biologists would disagree as well. The human species isn’t supposed to do anything. We do appear to be designed by natural selection to survive and reproduce, however. Whether or not humans have evolved cognitive mechanisms that allow them to pass on cultural knowledge to the next generation, it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they are designed to ensure the survival of the species. Most group selectionists (biologists who argue for mechanisms designed to preserve the species) have gone the way of the dodo.

Why? Specific examples of sticking to specific principles, I might be able to agree with. (The house building in Shakran’s post above, for example). But as a general phenomenon, I don’t have respect or disrespect for a community that can stay so true to its principles. I can think of too many examples of communities sticking to principles I disagree with.

I do think that being able to take care of oneself is admirable. I don’t think that the Amish lifestyle is sustainable. I think that their inbreeding with will lead to the demise of their culture.

I feel the same way.

Shak, the dalmation thing is admittedly anecdotal. I considered getting a dalmation once, and asked the vet at my local shelter about them and she told me about their blindness issue and why it happens so frequently among them.

Their sense of shared community produces their BEST quality.
But that itself is double edged. It works to keep them all working together for the common good, but also is the source of their insular society that produces inbreeding (which harms future children), shunning of those who don't stick to the old ways. etc.

The runoff of nutrients doesn't just affect them. That nutrient runoff contributes to the algae blooms which choke out fish and water plant species in the Chesapeake Bay. Per-capita, they are among the worst of offenders.

They don't necessarially have to die off. Just change. The Mennonites used to be just as strict as the Old Order Amish. They realized a need for change and reached out to the rest of the world and joined us. That's something I want to see the Old Orders do.

I have nothing but respect for the amish, though their lifestyle is not for me. It's almost too bad they'll fail in the end.

I think a lot of people in this thread are ignorant as to the development of the Amish and the Mennonites. They were one church at one time--all Mennonites. They split apart in 1693, when Jacob Amman wanted to reform the church and not everyone agreed, so his followers became the Amish. Also, there are sects of the Mennonites that are just as conservative regarding modernity as the Amish.

At any rate, the Mennonites don't all embrace technology, and they're not all "modern" like you might think. I live in an area with a lot of Mennonites, and while they drive cars, they still stick out like sore thumbs if you see them at the grocery store. Furthermore, because they're more integrated into society we are more aware of their behaviors--my SO's mother's friend is a Mennonite who cannot divorce their husband because of the church, and so she lives in a trailer on the same property as her husband, and has for a few years now. So while they may be using the technology, they're still pretty damn backwards.

But that's their right. People choose what they believe.

Alas my friend I disagree respectfully of course :)

If the world goes to crap tomorrow they will go on farming and living off the land while we..... try to figure it out before we die.

They are a fascinating and intelligent group.

so THAT'S where your last signature came from!!!!

Yeah, I know they aren't all modern, and still not have very distinct plain features about them.
But broadly, Mennonites loosened up from what they used to be.
I just didn't think I had to point out the nuance of the wide range of moderninity among them.

It's still odd seeing Mennonites out on town. The Girls wearing those ugly ankle length loose dresses with the bonnets and the guys in jeans and t-shirts.

My wife bought her car off of a Mennonite. Very easy to trust them to get a good car and a good deal because of their moral views.

My only problem with the Amish is that they benefit mightily from the country that they live within, while contributing nothing back to it (unless you count thier delicious fresh churned butter as a contribution [mmmmmm... butter]).

Wait, do the Amish not pay taxes?

The Amish pay taxes. The only exception is social security (unless they're employed somewhere rather than self employed on the farm)- - - but then they don't GET social security benefits either, so why should they?

Really, there's WAY too many misconceptions about these guys running around on this thread. The idea that they don't "give back" to society is absolutely ludicrous. Not only do they give back in the way most of us do - taxes - but how many of us can say that we finished rebuilding our neighbor's house - for free - just 15 hours after it was destroyed?

What all the anti-Amish sentiment on here boils down to is "they don't think like me and therefore I don't like them."

Considering the discussions that go on in tilted sexuality, I'd expect a LOT more tolerance and understanding of different lifestyles from TFP members.

I wasn't speaking of taxes, I was speaking of the other obligations of citizens. They set themselves apart in a completely exclusive society, that is not what this nation is all about. I see no difference between them and the branchdavidionnutsorightwingmilitiamormonseparatistcompounddwellers elsewhere in the country.

that's the irony to me, the BDSM crowd being upset and intolerant to the plain vanilla group...

I want you to go back and read, very carefully, post number 71 in this thread. Then come back and say that again with a straight face.

Amish do not partake in social security. They fund their own schools and medical clinics. You may just be suprised at how much money they have. The ones I know pay property taxes with cold hard cash.

This is my serious face:



One anecdote does not an argument make. I grew up around the Amish, I played with their children and had a great time. They are a friendly and warm people. And I say again that they simply do not contribute to the nation as a whole in any meaningful way. If they dissapeared tommorrow what would the ramifications be to the US?

I'm sure the Michigan Militia helped somebody change a flat tire once or twice...

Oh, nothing much, just a shortage in milk supply and in localities where they live a shortage in farm grown veggies and fruits. Lets not forget meat. On several occasions we came home with part of a cow I had become "friends" with.

They DO contribute. Just because not all of us see exactly how doesnt mean they dont. Exactly how do WE contribute? We get up we go to work we come home and we veg out.

So you are saying that they produce more than a non-Amish farmer would on the same land?

gee I guess you could say that about any ethnic or religious group that you don't like. Right? I mean it's filled with such generalities that you could even say, Boston Red Sox Fans in place of Amish.

Just what is it that a person has to do to "contribute"?

Except when it's just one example of many because that's how the Amish think and operate.

Then what the hell is your problem with them? This is sounding an awful lot like a certain other argument I hear ad nauseum. "Oh I ain't got nothin' against the blacks! I got some good friends that'r colored!"

What would be teh remifications to the US if YOU disappeared tomorrow? Would the country go down the tubes? Nope. In fact outside of the people that know you, you wouldn't be missed at all. Guess that means you also benefit from this country without giving anything meaningful back.

One of the strengths of this country is that we maintain our individuality while all being part of a collective strong enough to enrich the entire nation. What that means is that an Amish guy in Pennsylvania is no more or less vital to the success of this country than any other randomly chosen average American.

But just because you personally do not make a noticible difference in the history of this country does not mean we should denigrate you or make snide remarks about you.

By your logic you don't contribute in a flamboyantly noticible way and therefore you are useless to the country. But we extend you the courtesy of not denigrating you. It might be nice if you did the same for the Amish.

Wow people, I didn't realize I had pissed off the thought police.

Where have I denigrated the Amish? The title of the thread is "why I can't respect the Amish". I have given you my reasons.


Cynthetiq:
I believe that you must suborn some of your own wants and needs to better the nation you live in. I feel that I do that (I feel much more on some days than others). The Amish, do not. They live in an insular society that does not permit the free association with other groups, and discourages the exhange of information and ideas.

Shakran:
If you are suggesting that I am a racist, you are an idiot.

The ramification of me dissapearing? None. But I am an individual, and they are a cultural group, so thats not a very good example, is it?

It is funny that you mention individuality, when that is one of the least valued traits to the Amish. Their actions may occasionaly differ, but the overall attitude of the Amish towards people outside their culture is similar to the very racist groups you rather patheticly attempted to lump me in with above.

Also, I was in no way suggesting that because they don't support a record label or some similar bollocks that they have less intrensic worth than any other American, I am just saying that all of their energy goes into supporting their little group, and does not benefit the American people as whole.

I would bet that the people here who look down on the Amish do not live near any Amish or have never met them before. I grew up in the Midwest (wisconsin) and would often see a black horse carriage on the highway of the Amish traveling around. I would always find it absolutely amazing that they could continue such a life and value system in the face of a country that really does want to culturally indoctrinate its members (through television, music, and movies). Our country does not like it when small groups form their own communities, we look down on them as quaint or messed up - while those of us in the modern culture grew more seperated from community, alone and depressed. I think it is foolish to look down upon a group of people as if you have judged their life stupid compared to your choices. Perhaps their life is different than yours, but why judge them or disrespect them if it doesn't hurt your modern lifestyle?

This is just not true. The Amish often have their children go on a journey modern society and live in a modern lifestyle. They do this so that their children can see if they want to be like a modern american lifestyle or an amish lifestyle - and they let their children decide for themselves. The Amish also commonly trade crafts and interact with modern society, as well as travel using the highways, etc.

First, there is NO NEED TO CALL SOMEONE ANY NAMES FOR ANY REASON. I'll give you the opportunity to edit your post unless someone else reports it since it's better to let another moderator moderate your post if you don't self moderate it.

and no, actually I don't think he's suggesting that you're racist since this isn't RACE based it's FAITH based the correct word is bigot.

many communities that are protecting their cultures are live in "an insular society that does not permit the free association with other groups, and discourages the exhange of information and ideas."

Cynthetiq:

I qualified my statement to my satisfaction. IF he is calling me a racist, THEN he/she is an idiot. I personaly feel the implication that I am either a racist or a bigot (your moniker of choice) is far more insulting than calling someone an idiot.

Intolerant of those who differ? Indeed.

I am not disrespecting them, I am am just not respecting them.

And what happens to them if they decide they like modern society, can they still come back and worship with their family? Attend the barn raising? No, they are cast out of the society for not conforming. Of course, that is a choice some make, but what a choice to force on your kid...

The Amish as a collective have done nothing to warrant a lack of respect from you. So yes, you're denigrating them.



Where the hell did you get that notion? Of course the Amish can associate with other groups. How do you think they sell all those quilts? It's no big deal in Amish country for Amish people and non-Amish people to be wandering around in the same place. They even talk to each other. Hell, you probably don't realize this but the Amish take vacations just like you do. One of the coolest train rides I ever took was one where I sat and talked with an Amish family on their way to the mountains for 3 weeks. If they can't freely mingle in "our society" then why were those guys on the train?


Then it's a good thing I'm not, because calling another user an idiot would be a really stupid move wouldn't it. Considering the Amish are not a race, your poorly-thought out attitude toward them, ridiculous though it may be, is not racist.

OK, let's take an average American town. What if a town just up and disappeared. Would the country crumble? No. In fact the majority of the country wouldn't even notice it was gone. Therefore by your (lack of) logic the town is not contributing and therefore does not deserve respect.

Again I didn't try to lump you in a racist group - but thanks for trying to distract everyone from your lack of reasonable arguments by making up stuff about my arguments.

I will note, however, that denigrating a group, and then claiming you're not really against that group because you played with their children is the SAME line of reasoning USED by the racists to excuse their racism.

No, all their energy does not go to supporting "their little group." If it did, they wouldn't have rebuilt that guy's house. If someone in the area, Amish or not, needs help, the Amish are right the hell there, and that's a DAMN sight better than I can say for most "contributing" Americans.

They will go FAR out of their way to help where help is needed, no matter who needs it, and they don't ask or want thanks, recognition, or payment for it. There's a very valuable lesson there, one that the majority of us would be much better off taking to heart. But you won't learn it until you stop worrying about how different they are from you.

Hey mate,

I'm not worried about how different they are from me. Most people are. My respect is earned by a person or groups actions. They have not earned my respect. Again, I fail to see how I am denigrating (interesting choice of words given your above arguments) the Amish. I don't respect a whole lot of people. Very few of them feel any worse for it. I don't believe I have actually said anything about the Amish in this thread that is insulting, certainly not to the point of getting anyone this upset about it. If you would prefer not to hear my opinions in the future I encourage you to make use of the ignore feature.

that's a much more reasonable tone than you used at first. I still don't agree, but I don't disagree as vehemently ;)

what is that supposed to mean?

Except for the blatantly false misrepresentation of them as a group who will not interact with or help anyone who is not in their group. That's just plain wrong, and needed to be corrected.


I don't use the ignore feature. It's pointless. People disagree with each other all the time and there's nothing wrong with it. Ignoring someone just because they don't think the way you do is childish. You'd have to be a pretty dedicated jackass to get me to hit the ignore button.

Frankly if someone is a big enough jackass that I would ever feel like ignoring them, they're a big enough jackass that the mods have already banned them before i can get around to clicking the button ;)

Well, the Amish continue to amaze and astound me with their humanity (see previous post way back).

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/07/ami....ap/index.html

Maybe we can all learn a little something from them (besides butter churning and quiltmaking). Just that simple little act alone is humbling to me and I can think of nothing but respect for them. Looking inward, I don't know (at least with any certainty) whether or not I could have the capacity for "love and forgiveness" like they do. The rest of modern America tends to be vengeful and lustful for violence. I wonder how the Amish view 9/11?

On another note, in the article that Shakran provided, it isn't very clear if the Grabers are also Amish or not, causing a little confusion. I read it as the Grabers were Amish and the Amish community came out in force to help them rebuild their house (reminds me of a reality show where a group of people rebuild a poor deserving familiy's home).

Also, are the Amish allowed to ride trains? Or was it a Mennonite family on vacation (I'm just asking for clarification for my own knowledge sake). Where else are the Amish located? I just assumed they were in Pennsylvania, I had no idea they were in Wisconson too.

No, the Grabers are not Amish, which is why they were so shocked that all the Amish showed up and rebuilt their house for them. They just live in Amish country, which is how the word got out to the people who rebuilt the house for them.

Yes, they can ride trains and other motorized vehicles. they just can't drive them.

One misconception about the Amish is the idea that they reject technology because it is technology. That's not true. They reject that which could separate the community. Everyone in an amish community drives the same style and color of buggy (not all communities are all black, btw. Some even have yellow roofs) because embellishing your buggy or having a bigger buggy than everyone else could, in their view, result in the buggy's owner having selfish pride. Only wealthy Amish people could afford cars, and so cars would bring inequality to the community.

In fact if you get friendly enough with an Amish family that they invite you to their farm, you'd probably be shocked by what you found in the barn. It's not at all unusual to find modern milking and refridgeration equipment - only difference is that it's not powered by electricity because they feel hooking up to the grid would be conforming with the rest of the world, which the bible in their interpretation tells them not to do (Romans 12:2). (and actually that's not even true of some Amish - - some colonies accept the use of 12 volt batteries or even self-generated (hydroelectric) electricity - the stipulation being that they don't want enough electricity to power things that could negatively influence the Amish way of life -- - i.e. a 12 volt battery isn't gonna power a plasma screen ;) )

nope, they were Amish. Mennonites drive cars - and if you've ever ridden Amtrak you know it's faster to drive ;)

Wisconsin has the 4th largest population of Amish in the country. Pennsylvania, of course, is the largest, with Ohio and Indiana in the middle.

There are also a few Amish in Iowa though there are none living, as most believe, in the Amana colonies.