Ch'i

Wow. Its amazing how much someone can misunderstand a post, interject, and project their own thoughts into what someone else says. You need to read more carefully Kensei.

Kensei

Your speaking in vague generalities, and easy thing to do, I'll admit. First off, why don't you explain polarization to the rest of us. Also, lets not impugn someone for slowing down an arguement, I only see you doing that by sidetracking things. Your a smart guy obviously, but don't go out of your way to try and prove it, thats just sad.

shakran

I must admit it amazes me when someone joins a community and then, not 24 hours after he first became a member, busies himself insulting a well respected and very established member.

Now, if WR were actually being a pompus ass, I'd follow that paragraph with one attacking him. But he wasn't.

Seems to me that he's making arguments that you either don't understand or can't think of a counter to, so you're making personal attacks.

That kind of crap doesn't fly around here.

sapiens

Where are these recent studies that show that the effects of inbreeding aren't dire? Amish communities have been inbreeding for over 200 years and their pool of available mates is far smaller than the pool of mates available to European royalty over the same period. Inbreeding has few benefits. The only one I can think of is the opportunity for research. Researchers flock to Amish communities to study them and the many disorders that are a result of their inbreeding. For a news reference: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...ountry?mode=PF

It's perfectly reasonable to respect the Amish, but their mating patterns do lead to many genetic abnormalities which in turn lead to increased human suffering.

An argument from effect doesn't make much sense to me. Suffering of all kinds here and abroad may not affect me directly, but I can still care about its existence and hope for its end.

Does anyone have any evidence for or against the claims of misogyny among the Amish? I don't have any evidence either way, but I have heard claims of misogyny before.

I don't know whether or not Amish children are treated poorly. And if they are, whether it is widespread. However, whether or not the same abuses are present in non-Amish american society is irrelevant. Is your argument the anthropological equivalent of "But Clinton did it to!"?
I'm not sure how comparing Superbelt's comments to Hitler is helpful. It rarely seems to be in threads I've seen. I also don't think he hoped for their demise. Rather, he hoped for the demise of their culture.

I certainly feel sympathy for the loss this community has experienced, but that is not the topic of this thread. I do think that some of the cultural practices of the Amish are problematic. Whether or not other cultures evidence the same problems is irrelevant.

Willravel

Sure. Polarization is a sharp division, as of a population or group, into opposing factions. An example would be Charles Dickens. Has Willravel lost his mind? What does Charles Dickens have to do with polarization? Yes, I've lost my mind, but bear with me. Read Dickens' works. Consider the effects of the Industrial Revolution in the UK. It brought about massive unemployment, slums, substantial social disorder, and, yes, polarization. While in that case it eventually strengthened the managment and improved governance...stability took a long time and costed many lives. What we are talking about is essentially the growing pains of civilization. Those pains are massive and the effects are far reaching.
Not only am I smart, but I have a really hot wife....but that is for a different thread. My impugnage was a warning intended to teach you the ways of TFP. Threadjacking is something to be avoided, and so are fallacies.

Oh, and welcome to TFP!

shakran

You've never looked at a pedigree for a dog or cat have you?

Hold on to this thought. It's important in a minute.


And that's my point. The Amish are CHOOSING to live a life that we view as suffering, but which they view as normal and in fact necessary if they want to get into heaven. I'm a proponent of freedom of choice, so as long as what the Amish are doing does not negatively effect me or the rest of non-Amish society, I'm not going to rag on them for it.


No, and a 3 minute think session would show you why. Superbelt said:

And he listed a bunch of arguments that basically amounted to "because they don't think like me"

So I was pointing out that wanting a society to die out OR change simply because they're not like your society is asinine, and was further pointing out that they're not as different from our society as he makes them out to be.

Nice try though. I'll give you that much.

roachboy

i am not particularly interested in the main questions posed in this thread (sorry)--like the illusion of some teleology behind human history that inclines folk to move on way or another culturally--nor am i particularly interested in whether people like the amish or not.

but i am interested in the views being advanced about amish farming practices and am wondering where they come from--what documentation they rely on, for example--what sources, where one might go for a more detailed understanding of what these problems might be. i have been doing some research on them and frankly have found references to things like manure run-off and the chesapeake, but have also found alot about correction of them.

but smaller scale, diversified crop oriented farming hardly seems like a stupid idea. in fact, it seems like something you will see more and more of over time.
and the problems of equating corporate dominated food production in the u.s. with "progress" is another matter...read "the omnivore's dilemma" for starters.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Omnivore's Dilemma is fantastic. It is a perfect explaination of industrial, organic, and the hunter/gatherer. I would reccomend it to anyone who wants to be more familair with what you're eating. Also, it comes reccomended from roachboy. More importantly, the organic aspect of the book speaks directly to what is being discussed here: the supposed lack of progress that is actually a brilliant system that sustains a community efficiently.

A lot of people, myself included, have lost touch with where our clothing, food, furniture, etc. all come from. I could probably build a desk if I wanted to, but building a house would be beyond me. I can fish, but raising cattle would be beyond me. It's stuff like this that we take for granted, and the Amish are adept at.

Superbelt

Purebreed dogs have serious health problems. Dalmations for instance have a brain that grows too large for its skull cavity, putting pressure that drives them blind and into serious pain. Others regularly develop chronic joint problems and premature organ failures. These are direct results of bad genes being carried through a limited population.

What goes on in their communities doesn't effect us much, beyond the safety issues of their buggies and unnecessary nutrient runoff from their farms.
I'm mostly disappointed..

I don't advocate 'invading their communes, killing their leaders and converting them to average Americans'. I'm not saying we should interfere at all.
But I am going to say from my POV they waste their lives and continue it with their children.
It's just sad, and don't value their choice.

Kensei

Theres a pecking order here based on amount of time one is a member? Really?

Well, I was not aware I had to be a member for a year and a day to disagree with someone, or show scorn, or anything else for that matter, I will keep this in mind, and show the proper deference to those who have been here longer.

Willravel

Not at all. You are, however, quite new and it takes all of us - myself included - some time to adjust to a community. When I first joined I got into it with a member named Halx. I later found out that he is the owner and operator of TFP. He was patient but forward with me.

The pecking order is like that found in any other community. Imagine that I am an employee in a company you are new to. We have the same job, neither of us is in a superior position, but I have over 2 years experience. It simply means that I am more integrated and familiar.
Showing scorn is something you should monitor whether you're on an online forum, at work, or in school. The same can be said of sarcasm. TFP is a community just like any other, with it's social norms. Some people do choose to test or even break the limits of that norm. If I may make a humble suggestion: only test or break those norms in situations that are important enough to run the risk of social outcast or even banning. Pick your battles.

JumpinJesus

Kensei,

Everyone is new to a community at one time or another. When you registered, you were directed to read the guidelines, I'm assuming.

If not, they can be found here.

It's not that there's a pecking order, it's just that we frown upon sarcasm, condescension, and/or patronizing as a means of communication. It doesn't allow for effective discussion.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Ustwo

Generalist production equals a low standard of living. Civilization is about specialization. Omnivores Dilemma is an interesting book, but I don't think we will be in the 100 mile diet anytime soon.

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Kensei

Yawn, I find your surperior tone annoying, I think I have to ignore you. Bye bye.

Cynthetiq

actually, after a discussion with willravel, it seems there was some confusion that I was interjecting my moderating with him instead of with you. You are free to use the ignore button, but there is no need to be arrogant about it.

I have corrected it and please read below, also note, you cannot put moderators on ignore much to the dismay of some members of our community.

quick moderator injection:
And if you can't monitor it yourself, the community self polices for the most part using the REPORT POST button or even just helping the member get their sea legs as shown in the previous few posts directed at you from community members.

Sometimes we moderators see people straying early on in their participation with the community and we try to steer them into a good contributing member. This does not mean we agree or disagree with their points of view, we just want civil discourse (read: no flame wars or personal attacks.)

And sometimes, we see someone who isn't going to be a contributing member not matter what the community or the staff says. Those are pretty apparent and we give them enough rope to hang themselves and given time, they eventually do.

and back to your discussion thread.

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Kensei

*edited text*

Actually polarization is a sharp division, however you did not explain the why of it. Clearly you do not know, so I will tell all the folks out there.

Polarization happens, as it is now, because of technology, less personal communication between people, especially those of differing views then our own.

It can happen in any circumstances, be it more, or less developed countries, nations etc. However technology has increased the problem. What with the advent of the internet, cell phones, and other technology that tends to isolate us, we tend to not get out and met, talk to others. we do however tend to talk to, chat with others who have similiar beliefs to our own.

What with the isolating effect of recent technology, less and less people talk to or experience different ways of thinking or doing things besides their own, and that of others like them.

This kind of isolation leads to a lot of intolerance of the personal beliefs, thoughts, feelings, of others who do not agree with us, as well as a lot les acceptance in general. Intolerance and lack of acceptence lead to poor, or just plain no communication going on. Hence people don't really learn much beyond what they already know, and those like them who have "accepted their own point of view.

So, what you end up with is everyone splitting up into lots of little groups, each with their own set of beliefs, and each just as unwilling to embrace or even consider the thoughts and ideas of any other group. Worse still their all gathering together has a sort of mob mentality effect, with each encouraging the other within that group, nd making them even more resistant to hearing the thoughts, ideas of others. The ideas they cling to can end up taking on a life of their own, bringing the group together, and the identities of the very people belonging to that group can often become tied up with those idea's, and the group itself, which often becomes indivisible from the group itself. It has a self reinforcing effect really. This is polarization.

It is much worse now of course, because of the technology and the isolating effect it has on us as people, but it has always been there.

*edited text*

This post reads better without the tiresome personal comments. Warnings come next.

aKula

I guess there are many facets to be considered. The Amish's steadfast embrace of spirituality, rejection of technological advance and the close knit community that is part of their culture.

All these elements have both good and bad sides. They lack the general enlightenment and intellectualism which is attainable for members of the mainstream modern culture. This modern culture does, however, also produce empty materialism in which the individual is disinclined to seek advancment of their mind in intellectual and cultural matters. Hence the question from the original post often becomes an argument between spirituality and materialism. . Of course the relaxation of the rigid structure of society which allows such freedom also leads to some dilapidation at the edges of society.

The progress and enlightenment you praise is not apparent in the entire body of modern culture, only in part of it. Though the Amish lack this they also have the kind of spirituality that many people regard as better than the stagnation apparent in parts of the modern culture.

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shakran

Not all purebred dogs have serious (or even not-so-serious) health problems. And a great many of those health problems are caused by poor breeding (letting a trait continue by continuing to breed the dog with the trait) rather than being caused by inbreeding.

Where did you get this? I've been looking all over the net and can't find ANY documents on this.

Actually they're the direct results of bad genes being allowed to breed period. If an Amish guy has a dominant gene for early onset alzheimers, he's going to pass it on to his kids whether he has the kids with his cousin or a complete outsider.

But that unnecessary nutrient runoff, again, only effects THEM. If they want to strip their fields of nutrients (hasnt' happened yet I notice) then that's their choice.

As to the safety issues of their buggies - - yeah, every once in awhile we hear about some jerk that plowed into a buggy, but then we also hear about people running over bicycle riders too.


And I'm disappointed in your attitude toward them, but I don't wish for you to die out


Never thought you did - if you did advocate that the discussion would have turned toward psychological counselling



Well saying that you don't "value their choice" is quite different from hoping they die out. I'm glad to see your attitude has shifted to this one.

sapiens

You never looked at the link I provided, have you? The effects of inbreeding in pets or humans are unpleasant.
Does your position here extend to positions on other issues as well? Setting aside the Amish, if the choices a group of people make have negative consequences on other people in that community that are without choice, as long as it doesn't affect you, you don't have a problem with it? That's fine if that's your position. It's different from my own. I'm just trying to understand.

So, the example cited by superbelt is not representative of the Amish in the same way that a kid dying in a minivan is not representative of American society. This argument is dependent on both societies generally having respect for human life. If the evidence points to a lack of respect for human life (or women or children) among the Amish, then the argument doesn't work. A cultural lack of respect for life is not equivalent to an individual incident in a minivan (or vice versa). The only evidence I have seen, other than what I have cited above regarding inbreeding, is your claims that it is just a difference in clothing and Superbelt's claims that they take huge risks with their children (like having them climb into running threshers). I suspect the truth lies somewhere between. Regarding the misogyny/respect for children claims, I don't know enough about the Amish to judge.
I do agree that the existence of annoying kids in a culture is not a good enough reason to wish the demise of that culture.

I think that the comments about annoying kids detracts from the argument, but I do think that a stronger argument for change could be made from the inbreeding/misogyny position. I also think that the original argument for change was made from more than a "they're different from me" position.

Do I get a cookie? Or maybe a gold star? An "A" for effort?

pan6467

Time to inject humor...... well past time but wtf..... Humor WILL be injected now.....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

sapiens

This issue with inbreeding is not dominant genes, it's recessive genes. Most genetic disorders are a result of deleterious recessive genes. Deleterious recessive genes are maintained in populations because they are recessive. Dominant deleterious genes are selected out of gene pools very quickly. If you combine deleterious recessive genes with inbreeding, you significantly increase the chance of their expression.

shakran

that may be true, however it's the Amish way to not marry outside of the Amish. Even if inbreeding led to them growing 2 heads, it wouldn't hurt anyone but the Amish.

Again, I believe in freedom of choice. If the entire society CHOOSES to do something, that's up to them, as long as it's not hurting OTHER societies.

ShaniFaye

thank you for that, I've been fighting posting it for two days lol

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

pan6467

any time Shani...... humor and making a smile should be what life is about not stressing out over how other's live.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

sapiens

Thanks. I understand your position and disagree. I believe in the freedom of choice as well. I have no problem with adults making choices for themselves. I do have a problem when adults make choices that adversely affect others without choice. Kids don't have a choice to be born with degenerative disorders. If adults have the choice to prevent that, I think that they should. I'm not going to force changes in mating practices, but I can certainly disagree with those mating practices.

Sultana

Just a quick note, Superbelt did NOT say he hoped they died out. He said he hoped the *culture* died out.

Regarding the rest, I suppose of course that everyone is allowed to have opinions, and to disagree with other's opinions, but it would appear that Superbelt is the only person in this thread to have actually worked with and interacted with the Amish at all--if I am incorrect, please do correct me.

Therefore, I have to give his (*his*, yes?) input a bit more attention than others, of course weighing in the facts that I don't know him, his character, his motives, etc.

Why does this thought make me giggle a little?

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

sapiens

I roam the land in my tireless search for cultures with sub-optimal mating practices, forcing them to accept my far superior methods (and moves). I've done it with the Mennonites. If the Amish aren't careful, I'll do it with them. I am inbreeding (inbred?) man!

Willravel

Kensei, I suggest that we continue our discussion on polarization in another thread. This thread is about the Amish.

Sultana

OK, now I'm laughing a lot! But wouldn't that make you "Outbred Man"?

Do you have a Big Pink "O" on your chest?

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

sapiens

Yes, it would, but I thought it was funnier to call myself inbred. I sacrificed accuracy for (likely weak) humor.

And, no I don't have an "O". Oddly, I do have an "I" (a very large vertical scar).

shakran

Which amounts to the same thing. The Amish aren't gonna change voluntarilly. The only way for the Amish culture to go away would be for the Amish to die.



You are. More years ago than I care to admit I worked in Amish country. You cannot live in the area without learning a LOT about the Amish - especially since you have to be quite careful where you point the camera, and in areas where the Amish and everyone else mingle, you have to get to know the Amish so they understand that you know not to take their pictures.

This article might help folks understand why I get pissy when people denigrate the Amish for no good reason:

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs...WS01/603150346

This is not an isolated event. This is just how the Amish operate.

Sultana

Huh. I guess Amish are people--Good and bad, just like everyone else.

That's an *amazing* story. How wonderful that things like that happen in the world. Can you imagine what the world would be like if folks in the Middle East handled things in the same spirit?!?

Thank you for correcting me gently.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

sapiens

To get myself back on topic:

The human species is naturally supposed to grow mentally and learn more and more? I disagree. Nearly all evolutionary biologists would disagree as well. The human species isn’t supposed to do anything. We do appear to be designed by natural selection to survive and reproduce, however. Whether or not humans have evolved cognitive mechanisms that allow them to pass on cultural knowledge to the next generation, it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they are designed to ensure the survival of the species. Most group selectionists (biologists who argue for mechanisms designed to preserve the species) have gone the way of the dodo.

Why? Specific examples of sticking to specific principles, I might be able to agree with. (The house building in Shakran’s post above, for example). But as a general phenomenon, I don’t have respect or disrespect for a community that can stay so true to its principles. I can think of too many examples of communities sticking to principles I disagree with.

I do think that being able to take care of oneself is admirable. I don’t think that the Amish lifestyle is sustainable. I think that their inbreeding with will lead to the demise of their culture.

I feel the same way.

Superbelt

Shak, the dalmation thing is admittedly anecdotal. I considered getting a dalmation once, and asked the vet at my local shelter about them and she told me about their blindness issue and why it happens so frequently among them.

Their sense of shared community produces their BEST quality.
But that itself is double edged. It works to keep them all working together for the common good, but also is the source of their insular society that produces inbreeding (which harms future children), shunning of those who don't stick to the old ways. etc.

The runoff of nutrients doesn't just affect them. That nutrient runoff contributes to the algae blooms which choke out fish and water plant species in the Chesapeake Bay. Per-capita, they are among the worst of offenders.

They don't necessarially have to die off. Just change. The Mennonites used to be just as strict as the Old Order Amish. They realized a need for change and reached out to the rest of the world and joined us. That's something I want to see the Old Orders do.

Zeraph

I have nothing but respect for the amish, though their lifestyle is not for me. It's almost too bad they'll fail in the end.

snowy

I think a lot of people in this thread are ignorant as to the development of the Amish and the Mennonites. They were one church at one time--all Mennonites. They split apart in 1693, when Jacob Amman wanted to reform the church and not everyone agreed, so his followers became the Amish. Also, there are sects of the Mennonites that are just as conservative regarding modernity as the Amish.

At any rate, the Mennonites don't all embrace technology, and they're not all "modern" like you might think. I live in an area with a lot of Mennonites, and while they drive cars, they still stick out like sore thumbs if you see them at the grocery store. Furthermore, because they're more integrated into society we are more aware of their behaviors--my SO's mother's friend is a Mennonite who cannot divorce their husband because of the church, and so she lives in a trailer on the same property as her husband, and has for a few years now. So while they may be using the technology, they're still pretty damn backwards.

But that's their right. People choose what they believe.

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Lady Sage

Alas my friend I disagree respectfully of course

If the world goes to crap tomorrow they will go on farming and living off the land while we..... try to figure it out before we die.

They are a fascinating and intelligent group.

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ngdawg

so THAT'S where your last signature came from!!!!

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Superbelt

Yeah, I know they aren't all modern, and still not have very distinct plain features about them.
But broadly, Mennonites loosened up from what they used to be.
I just didn't think I had to point out the nuance of the wide range of moderninity among them.

It's still odd seeing Mennonites out on town. The Girls wearing those ugly ankle length loose dresses with the bonnets and the guys in jeans and t-shirts.

My wife bought her car off of a Mennonite. Very easy to trust them to get a good car and a good deal because of their moral views.

debaser

My only problem with the Amish is that they benefit mightily from the country that they live within, while contributing nothing back to it (unless you count thier delicious fresh churned butter as a contribution [mmmmmm... butter]).

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