09-28-2006, 05:11 AM | #41 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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I wasn't around in the middle ages to witness the warm period then, so I'll just concede all of the rest. Including 2006 being the hottest summer since 1936, because I do know that my A/C got one hell of a workout. Still...even if global warming/cooling is part of the natural cycle (which to a large extent...it is) you have to see the common sense that the continuation of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, in ever increasing quantities...coupled with the continued deforestation of the rainforests, has to have an adverse effect. While the sky may not be falling, there has to be some stress fractures.
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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09-28-2006, 05:39 AM | #42 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I never claimed that the environment was perfect, or that humans were not having adverse local effects. The rainforest has poor quality soil which is why the slash and burn is so devastating there, it can't recover once the soil is depleted. Now this will vary WILDLY depending on where you look, which is also part of the frustration. Due to the agendas in the global warming craze its past beyond science into politics and its like looking up 'George Bush' on google and expecting dispassionate unbiased results. Needless to say this is quite disturbing in what should be a scientific matter but it is what it is. Anyways human produced gases make up about 1% of the atmosphere. What sort of effect it has we really do not know. There are so many variables that all predictions are meaningless. We have carbon sinks in vegetation, some claim all it will do is increase plant life, we have the oceans which deposit calcium carbonate and some think that takes care of the excess, we have people claiming that the particulate matter in pollution is cooling the earth and thats masking global warming, well anyways it goes on and on, and thats just the good science. There is even more junk science out there thats more wild and gets more press like those idiots who said the earth was at its warmest in 1 million years just this week. (sob) But Bill can you advocate expensive action, which even the proponents of human caused global warming say will make NO difference just so some people can feel good and THINK they are helping the environment? Action with no hope of results is just assinine.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-28-2006 at 05:51 AM.. |
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09-28-2006, 05:50 AM | #43 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Sorry, I know we're not supposed to post twice the same article. But this holds much relevance in the argument.
More info and science on the sun-based warming cycles. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1045327.stm Quote:
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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas |
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09-28-2006, 05:55 AM | #44 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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A new UC Berkeley report finds that returning California global warming emissions to 1990 levels by 2020, as envisioned by pending global warming legislation, can boost the annual Gross State Product (GSP) by $60 billion and create 17,000 new jobs by 2020.I have not read the full report and I doubt that I would have the expertise to to critiique it after reading it. I am sure many will "debunk" it; I would only hope they do so with credible and verifiable arguments of their own.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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09-28-2006, 06:46 AM | #45 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The problem with scaring people is that once they figure out they were duped its going to be that much harder to get them to do the right thing. All the eggs are in the global warming basket right now, what happens if the temperatures start to go down with the end of the current solar cycle like it did after the last global warming scare in the 30's? Really I think we were making pretty good progress at educating the general public over environmental issues but that has been totally overshadowed by global warming and the WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE IF YOU DON'T ACT NOW AND VOTE FOR THESE PEOPLE! mentality they are trying to push on us. I can't recall the last mass media story about the environment that didn't tie in global warming. People may be poorly educated, but despite what most environmentalist groups think, they are not stupid. Its going to be that much harder to keep people focused on the environment in the long run if global warming goes away on its own.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-28-2006, 02:04 PM | #46 (permalink) | ||
Artist of Life
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09-29-2006, 05:15 PM | #47 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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well this is just interestingly telling...
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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09-29-2006, 05:21 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Even Gore can't be THAT stupid.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-29-2006, 05:28 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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"Throughout most of my life, I raised tobacco. I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put it in the plant beds and transferred it. I've hoed it. I've dug in it. I've sprayed it, I've chopped it, I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold it."
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 09-29-2006 at 05:31 PM.. |
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09-29-2006, 05:41 PM | #50 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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At this point I don't really care if there is Global Warming or not. All I care about is that we make some (real) attempt to slow or halt pollution.
I don't need to frame that debate in Global Warming terms. I'd rather look at the increased rate of resperatory illness. If reducing harmful particulates from the air leads to a reduction of "greenhouse gases" I see that as just an added bonus. Add to this, that increased efficencies in our current systems (better heating and cooling systems, better insulated houses, more efficient means of production) while expensive in the initial stage will bring dividends in the long run -- the biggest of which is a reduction in the amount of power required to run said systems (read: less reliance in foreign oil, etc.). As for how to pay for it all? I would set up a system of government sponsored Interest Free loans to be paid back with the savings in Energy consumption. Additionally, you would be creating a big whack of jobs for people who will have to impliment these systems as well as in R&D into creating these efficiencies. This discussion need not be couched in Global Warming... Global Warming is just a "convenient" fear factor, regardless of the veracity of global warming one way or the other.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
09-29-2006, 05:43 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-29-2006, 06:05 PM | #52 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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Great point Charlatan, couldn't agree more. |
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09-29-2006, 06:07 PM | #53 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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But to answer that... If we look at the internal combustion engine of Henry Ford's time compared to today we have squeezed much more energy out of our engines that was previously available. Of course, instead of making our cars more efficient we have just made them bigger and faster. In and of itself this is not a problem so long as the overall effect is greater efficiency and less pollution over all. As a suggested above, it isn't just about cars. It also about how we build our houses (or live with the legacy of what we already have built), how we run our industry, how we use our energy and what we do with our waste. Many would like to see there be no regulations. Fuck efficiency. I want to do it the cheapest way possible to maximize profits. This is extremely short sighted and ignores negative externalities such as resperatory illness and death (the cost of which is rarely calculated by industry or economists). And one need not just look at that example of a negative externality, a greater number of heavier vehicles on our roads (i.e. more SUVs) has also increased the wear and tear on our roads and highways. Who pays for these roads? It is not the auto industry, you can be sure of that. But my point in the post of above was not to get into that side of things... it was simply to state that with proper investment in R&D and stronger regulations greater efficiencies and reduction of pollution can be achieved. This does not require the spectre of Global Warming. Implimenting it just takes good leadership with an eye towards the long term rather than just sort term gain.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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09-29-2006, 06:45 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-29-2006, 06:49 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Then we agree on something.
Fear is a shitty tool to use as a motivator. Better to state your real agenda and make it happen.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
09-29-2006, 07:14 PM | #56 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-29-2006, 07:19 PM | #57 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Interesting. I would suggest that in your rebuttals to the Global Warming discussion you make this emphasis. Until now, this concern for the environment is mostly lacking from your position. You end up coming off as someone who is just dismissing it all rather than suggesting that your motivation for change is fueled but other things.
It is perhaps, why so many are quick to call you a shill for the current admin's position (well at least one reason ).
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke Last edited by Charlatan; 09-30-2006 at 05:12 PM.. |
09-29-2006, 08:20 PM | #58 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-29-2006, 09:08 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Good old Gore!
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At the 1996 Democratic National Convention, Gore recounted how his cigarette-smoking sister died from lung cancer. "I knelt by her bed and held her hand," he grieved. "And in a very short time her breathing became labored. And she breathed her last breath. And that is why, until I draw my last breath, I will pour my heart and soul into the cause of protecting our children from the dangers of smoking." He neglected to mention was that he had happily accepted campaign contributions from tobacco industry political action committees for six years after his beloved sister passed away. Oh, and in a speech he gave in North Carolina, four years after his sister "breathed her last breath," he said, "Throughout most of my life, I've raised tobacco. I want you to know that with my own hands, all of my life, I put it in plant beds and transferred it. I've hoed it. I've chopped it. I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold it." What a piece of shit he is.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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09-29-2006, 09:15 PM | #60 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Please Marv, don't open that can of worms. All it leads to is a tit for tat process. You think HE's bad, well your leader did THIS!
I don't care what Gore did in the past, or if he's a "piece of shit." Let's keep the focus on the message itself. There is plenty of interest to debate there. If you wish to get into any politican's character, please start another thread. This goes for everyone.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
09-29-2006, 09:24 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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As I understand it, it sets new targets for emissions of sulfur dioxide, mercury, and nitrogen oxides from U.S. power plants and allows for "pollution trading" that would effectively weaken (or delay) the emission targets that would be in place if the Bush administration simply implemented and enforced the existing law. I've read what the White House and EPA say as well as what the environmental groups say. It seems to me that "we were making gains" with existing law, without an adverse impact on the utility industry.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-29-2006 at 09:37 PM.. |
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09-29-2006, 10:18 PM | #62 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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If Duke Cunningham went on the lecture tour promoting integrity in government, I doubt that I'd buy any book he wrote. If that analogy is also lost on you, perhaps another reader will consider it relevant. If he or she gets a chance to read it. I don't know why I thought things might have changed around here.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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09-30-2006, 07:25 AM | #63 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Marv... don't be uneccessarily obtuse.
The path you were trodding is one we have been down before. It leads to a flame war... one that has already been had. If you want to start a flame war... do it elsewhere.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
09-30-2006, 09:19 AM | #64 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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09-30-2006, 09:34 AM | #65 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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09-30-2006, 09:41 AM | #66 (permalink) | |
Insane
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It is sad that fear works so well as a motivator for people. And junkscience.com / Steven Milloy is basically our era's version of the people who fought so hard against evolution in Darwin's and the heliocentric solar system in Galileo's respective eras. |
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10-05-2006, 06:07 AM | #67 (permalink) | |
Upright
Location: LSD
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I saw this movie recently and I must admit some of the graphs looked pretty scary and to see all that ice disappearing is concerning. There has been talk that the Australian ski fields will be gone in a matter of years because of global warming, if this is true then I think that is quite concerning. This year I ski'd new zealand and the season was one of the better ones on record. Its certainly very hot here in Sydney and its only mid autumn. I'm not a scientist and so I have no real way of judging these claims but from what I've read I'm convinced that something real is occuring. I think Kyoto sounded like a fairly good idea to me, and I know the nations who pariticipated in it did reduce their emissions. I think economic measures are the best way to enforce compliance but really governments have to step up to the plate and stop this ridiculous free market globalization turn a blind eye attitude. We have to start being a little bit more responsible, rational and careful because at the moments its a very crowded party and there aren't a whole lot of beers left doesn't mean we should all go in and grab a six pack and hide it in a bunker somewhere. We're human beings and we should act more like a global community. I think anytime anyone says either the "sky is falling" or "all those scientists who tell you the sky is falling are lying" to you they are probably pushing an agenda even if that agenda is just getting you to read their newspaper. The world is in many ways a fucked up place and I think we need to maintain constant dialogue on ways to deal with the complex challenges we face. Fear mongering relies on idiots who will be scared easily and frankly there is no shortage of such people. If they weren't afraid of global warming they would be afraid of terrorism or the economy or communism - you can't try and protect people by attacking fear mongerers. We need to all rise up and become practical rather than reactionary. Last edited by MechCow; 10-05-2006 at 06:26 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-05-2006, 10:38 AM | #68 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Above you
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I know why the hockey stick diagram showed 1998 to be the hottest year ever, it has nothing to do with CO2 or anything like that.. The reason is simply numbers. The year 1998 had 3(!) Friday the 13th (bad luck baaaad luck) and if you divide 1998 by 3 you start to understand why it was the hottest year ever.
Seriously though, here are some links about said hockey stick diagram: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3569604.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5109188.stm http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=11 Some other links of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempera...ast_1000_years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_record http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...ate_Change.png As it is now I'm not convinced either way, on one hand I see the ones claiming that humans are responsible are pretty arrogant in assuming that we can affect that much and on the other hand, it is getting hotter where I live and less snow in the winters. But as it is now blahblah454 said it best. Why bother why we want to clean up the air, it's a good thing no matter what reason.
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- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth." Last edited by Cervantes; 10-05-2006 at 10:52 AM.. |
10-05-2006, 11:05 AM | #69 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-05-2006, 11:26 AM | #70 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: Above you
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By cleaning up the air I mean away with the industries etc. that produces "smog" that mixture of pretty much everything that makes it so disgusting to even breathe in some cities. But that may very well be the very thing that is slowing down global warming so.. Guess we just don't know for sure untill we are there.
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- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.." - "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong." - "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth." |
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10-09-2006, 03:40 PM | #71 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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Some recent data on Greenland's ice mass.
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10-13-2006, 06:59 PM | #72 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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Interesting article on the global warming cycle.
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inconvenient, truth |
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