abaya

So, I have a question for y'all... (maybe this is better in Living, feel free to move).

As some of you may know, ktspktsp and I are getting marred October 15th (woo-hoo!). We're doing very well with all the details and planning, but today I had my first really negative experience with the wedding industry (well, I don't like the industry as a whole, but I've managed to scoot around most of the sales-pressure and brain-washing that comes with it).

So basically, this photographer, we'll call her L... at my informal interview with her, she was very excited about our "story" (especially how international we are) and started writing down all the details... date, times, who was who, etc. That's fine... I figured everyone did that. I asked her about the cancellation fee and the deposit, she told me the amounts, and I was fine with that. She did not ask me to sign any papers (though she gave me a copy of the contract, of course, for my fiance and I to sign and return later). I told her I felt very positive about her, though of course I needed to check with ktspktsp over the weekend and get back to her. All fine.

So over the weekend, ktspktsp and I decide that she's not a good fit for us. We didn't like her style as much as we thought we did, and we found someone who had a better package to offer. I e-mailed her back (less than a week after our first meeting) to let her know that we had decided not to use her services. She e-mails me back and said that she was very disappointed, and that the $300 cancellation fee was still in effect. She "expected my check soon." I was like, huh??? I didn't sign anything! Nor did I tell her that I was 100% committed... but she wrote that I was so "excited and confident" that she booked me right away. HUH?!

She also said that she wrote me an e-mail the day after the interview, stating to "return the contract as soon as possible, no deposit is required, and the cancellation fee is in effect." This was not communicated when I saw her in person; she simply sent me an e-mail that had that line in it. I took it to mean, "The fee will be in effect after you return the contract," which would make more sense to me. Why the hell would I be responsible for paying her ANYthing without something on paper? I didn't "sign" that e-mail, or whatever... not that I suspected anything when I first read it (certainly not a binding contract!), but right now I feel like she's pulling this shit out of her ass just to get some money.

So, I must ask all of you TFP'ers... especially those who work in law (or have dealt with bitchy photographers)... does this lady stand a chance of forcing us to pay $300? I am prepared to take her ass to court if we have to, because I am almost completely sure that we would win, hands down. What the hell! But I don't want to sic the lawyer on her just yet, in case she has some kind of defense... what do you guys think? Am I missing something? Are e-mails or verbal "excitement" considered binding agreements?!?!

Cheers.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ratbastid

Let her take you to small claims court if she wants. There's nothing on paper, so there's no agreement in place about her cancellation fee. You never had any intent to enter into a verbal agreement. You can't be expected to pay $300 to compensate her for her lack of communication skills.

ShaniFaye

There is no written contract to be *cancelled* Any judge would ask to see where you had committed yourself to her service.

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hambone

Despite there not even being a verbal agreement (you never said yes, clearly stating you had to check with your fiancee), there was no one there to back her story up either was there?

She stands no chance whatsoever.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

Sultana

Any service provider who perceives every "excited" propective client as booked regardless of no contract being signed is in for a rude awakening.

Simply tell her to send a copy of the signed contract to your lawyer (teehee, you don't have to tell her you don't have one on retainer!), and "Things will be straightened out" or something like that. Likely a mention of a lawyer will shut her up right quick, unless she is actually very stupid.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

ngdawg

Sounds to me like it was a preliminary interview, nothing more. She's trying to scam/scare you. Your instincts were dead on-she's more than not a good fit.
She jumped the gun booking the date without authorization from you.
I've had a similar confrontation with a roofing contractor. Do this: if she contacts you again, merely state that you have forwarded the information to your attorney for evaluation. (Doesn't matter if you have one or not, just say that sentence). She will probably back off. If she counters with something, ie; her attorney said this or that, ask her to have her attorney call yours and that it is no longer in your hands as you did not sign any contract. Also state to her that any further communication regarding this matter to you will be considered harrassment and that you can and will press charges accordingly. Whether you really can or do is irrelevant-you just need to make her go away.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

paddyjoe

Ahh y'know, it's morons like this that give us real paparazzi a bad name.

In my initial meeting with the client, I give them a copy of the contract plus a stamped, self addressed envelope, and make it clear that if they'd like my services to just sign and return the contract. If they don't, well, no harm no foul.

This jerk has absolutely no leg to stand on, and if you hear from her again, follow dawgs advice.

Best o' luck to you both as well!

ps. i'm free that day, btw.....

abaya

Thanks, you guys... I really appreciate all the responses. I am just afraid that I am missing something... but honestly, I DID NOT Sign anything, so no matter what, there's nothing for her to stand on. I was just worried about her interpretation of some kind of "verbal agreement" (which I did not make), if that would have any legal standing. But no one was there! Unless she had some kind of bugging system, but that would be illegal too. Yeah, no shit. Except that she's been in the business for some 28 years! I mean, WTF. That's why I was a little wary about threatening her with a lawyer... in case she had something up her sleeve. But I signed NOTHING!! What she has, is an e-mail... that says the fee is "in effect." And since I didn't protest that (because I seriously did not think $300 was at stake!), she seems to think she has something on me.

Yes, I wrote out a draft of an e-mail to her that was very curt and edging on bitchy, and ended it with "If you choose to pursue this $300 fee, ktspktsp and I will need to take legal action." But I like your approach better, Sultana. My only worry is that she will have something to fire back at me, and then we have to hire a lawyer, which will end up costing more than $300!!!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sultana

Tell her that she can take the $300 cancellation fee out of your $500 Wasted Time fee, and send you a check for $200 posthaste.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

hambone

I can send you an email stating the fee for me replying to this post is in effect. You don't have to respond rejecting my statement for the judge to laugh me out of court



In any response, type it up, walk away for an hour, then come back. Now remove ANY emotion whatsoever. Just state pure facts. Otherwise, it just gets messy. There is no contract. Verbal or written. You expressed interest. That is all.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

abaya

Oh, you're so nice... But you're a rather long drive away, I'm afraid. Believe me, we thought of both you and JumpinJesus as possibilities, but with the date coming so fast... we just thought it would be nuts to try and bring someone in from out of state. Thank you for offering, though.

We have another local alternative, a young married couple who works each event together... they were much more laid-back than this L lady when I met them. Who knows, maybe they will pull some bullshit on us, if I cancel on them too! As it is, I am starting to think that I should just hire a colleague of mine in grad school who has done wedding photography on the side. She is about 1/4 of the cost of the professionals... I'm just going to have to check out her portfolio, first.

I am just friggin' glad that I didn't go with this first woman!! jeeeeesus.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ngdawg

What could she fire back? There's no signature, no contract, nothing. Oh, save those emails. I'm sure her booking you based on 'excitement' will really hold up in court if it went that route.
See, people in certain businesses are in it for one thing-extort money. She saw a sweet pretty girl all excited about her upcoming wedding and pounced. I'd be willing to bet she makes more money scamming than she does photographing.
On a sidenote: that roofing contractor I mentioned? State attorney general charged them with a $100,000 fine for illegal soliciting. Seems since they barely crossed the line of criminal trying to scam me out of $8500, the AG did some more digging....

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

abaya

So do you guys think I should simply ignore her e-mail asking for $300? As in, not even respond? And if she writes me again, then I can use the "send the contract to my lawyer" line?

I have written two drafted responses by now... one that's direct and a bit angry, and another that gently explains the misunderstanding and then CLEARLY states that we won't be paying the fee. I feel like I should remain the bigger person and not get all bitchy on her ass... hence the softer-toned e-mail. But hey, maybe I should not respond at all.

What a fucking BITCH! (Sorry, I had to vent.) Where the hell is personal integrity and professionalism in this day and age? Is the TFP the only place for solace and hope?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

feelgood

No, binding agreements require the response of other person involved. You didn't respond to the email, its not an agreement. A verbal "excitement" is a human reaction and is not considered to be a legal response to an agreement.

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

abaya

Okay, talk to me more here... because I did respond to the e-mail, but not about that specific part (she e-mailed me ALL the stuff we supposedly discussed at the interview, which was a lot). So I did respond, but simply to ask her two questions about other things (e.g. how she scanned the negatives, if she had an online server, etc)... and did not even think to ask about this bloody "cancellation in effect" statement because I figured everything was contingent upon me signing the contract!

I later e-mailed her again to ask when she would like me to return the contract to her, since I knew I'd be seeing ktspktsp on the weekend... she told me by Wednesday (today). The contract itself required 2 names.. the bride and groom... and she certainly did not e-mail ktspktsp with this "in effect" business either, so I don't see how it would be binding to either/both of us. Bloody hell, this has me SOOO steamed.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

There's no "verbal" contract in place unless there's acknowledgement of it by both parties with services provided or good delivered. It's hard to insert a cancellation clause into a verbal contract, and it's complete bullshit to hold someone to try to do this. Unless the judge is a friend or relative, he would laugh her ou tof court.

If I were you, I would either ignore her email altogether or tell her that in discussing it with your attorney, he asked for a signed copy of the contract including the cancellation clause. Since you don't have that (and it doesn't exist), she needs to provide it. You can promise to expedite payment upon presentation of the signed and completed contract - and I suggest you write as business-like as possible to make it appear that actual attorneys are involved.

She's probably just pissed off that she got excited about the work and it didn't come through.

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Toaster126

Calm down. This is just someone trying to scare you into giving them money. It happens.

I personally would just tell her I wasn't paying the cancel fee since I hadn't signed up for anything, and ignore anything after that.

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"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

analog

Yep. Scaring money out of you.

abaya

Oh, I know what she's trying to do. I am just trying to figure out how I should respond without getting myself stuck in some kind of legal shithole, if there is even one possible. I just don't see how anything other than a written signature can be considered a binding contract... but that is why I am asking for anyone who has dealt with this kind of thing before.

What, exactly, is a verbal agreement? If I told her I was all but sold on her work, but that I still needed to check with my fiance... and she interpreted that as an "agreement," I still think that's her professional fault. But I just want to watch my back before I take any action.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

hambone

That is the key part, the BUT.

If you had said, "Yes I agree to give you my business and please sign me up for such and such date. I accept the cancellation fee should i decide to cancel at a later date" and she had a third part present there to be a witness to all this, then she could start to CLAIM verbal contract.

However, even if she claims it, verbal contracts are HARD to prove and she wouldn't have a good chance

In your case, she has absolutely nothing to go on. at all.

__________________
"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"

SirLance

The core question, as Hambone correctly points out, is "Does a contract exist?"

The answer is clearly no. You never agreed to retain her services, either verbally or in writing.

You have no cause of action to take her to court (although if she persists you can seek an injunction against harrasment, which you would have to pay a process server to serve).

I would simply not respond. If she should send you a demand letter, write her back and tell her that you never engaged her services, and any action she brought would constitute malicious prosecution, for which you would counter-sue.

If she chose to reserve her time based on your level of excitement, that is her problem. Sounds like you made a good choice by not doing business with this individual.

Edit-- I should learn to spell "sue".

By the way, aren't all prospective brides excited? I mean, is encountering an excited prospective bride a first for this person?

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

abaya

Thanks again for everyone's advice. I'm still a bit nervous about what to do... I feel awkward or passive-aggressive by ignoring it, but I don't want to get into an e-mail battle with her, either. Blah. Like I said... she's been doing this for 28 years, she proclaims proudly on her website. So god only knows what the hell she's thinking here. I guess that's what made me nervous... this CAN'T be the first time she's run into this problem, and maybe she has something up her sleeve.

Personally, if I were a professional photographer, I would get EVERYTHING in writing no matter how damned excited or confident a bride was. Hell, particularly BECAUSE they were excited, I would have it in writing! Lol. I mean, I just don't understand where she gets off on this "verbal commitment" (as she calls it... not a contract) thing. There was no one else in the room except for us two, I did not sign any of her papers, I did not say out loud "Yes, I promise to pay $300 if I do not retain your services," etc.

I DID tell her that I really liked her stuff and would most likely use her for our wedding, but again... it was not an ironclad commitment. I told her I needed to get ktspktsp's signature and make a "final decision" with him. Which meant that I had not yet made one, ahem.

I just wish I knew the technicalities of how to enforce a verbal commitment! I wonder if I should seek legal advice on this, or just plod through it on my own (with your help, of course!).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Elphaba

Abaya, there is no need for you to say that you will go to court or that she should contact your attorney. She claims to be the "wronged" person and therefore she must take it to small claims court. She has been in business too long and has probably pulled this stunt too many times not know how useless that effort would be without a signed contract. Even your "verbal" agreement held a stipulation of k's approval.

I think that all you need to do is calmly respond to her (certified snail mail) that you do not agree with her position that $300 is owed her in that no verbal or written agreement exists. End of letter.

My two cents, sweetheart. This has caused you far more distress than the worth of her threat. Take a deep breath, hug your wonderful man, and let this problem remain on her shoulders. It's not yours to worry about.

Halx

Wow.. you're getting married on my birthday. I'll be sending you happy thoughts!

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NoSoup

Although this isn't quite the same, it is remarkably similar.

I'll give you the long and short of it...

The Short: You don't have to pay the fee

The Long: As a mortgage broker, relatively often a new client will approach me as a second or third option when they are considering getting a mortgage (they are shopping around). Often times they'll end up utilizing my services, and I would bet greater than 90% of the time the company that they were working with before attempts to collect something from them, whether it be an appraisal fee, an "application fee" or some other nonsense. At any rate, if the client hasn't signed anything agreeing to pay that fee, they don't have to pay it - even if services are rendered - as long as they haven't been asked for. For instance, I had a client of mine cancel their application with another brokerage, and later that same night dropped by their home to go over some paperwork with them (young couple buying their first home - I felt they feel much better about it face to face rather than getting things in the mail)

At any rate, a few days later they get a bill for the appraisal. Obviously, since the appraisor didn't go in their home, nor get their approval to come over in the first place, they were rather surprised. When they contacted me to see what to do, I advised them that they shouldn't pay for it, to contact the other company and let them know what the circumstances are. The next morning, the couple woke up to find and appraisal stuffed in their screen door - the same one they hadn't asked for. Along with it was a bill. The appraisal date on it was a few days prior to the date that they cancelled. The problem - other than the obvious, which was they hadn't requested, approved of, or signed anything - was that in the photo of the home, my car was in the driveway, so it obviously wasn't completed the day that he said it was.

I could go on and on about the appraiser harrassed these poor people about getting paid, and how they had "accepted delivery" of the appraisal, but I won't. Basically, one quick phone call from me saying that if my clients heard from him again I'd call the licensing board (falsifying the date) and the BBB for basically being a ridiculous business owner (Literally dozens of voicemail messages in the course of three or four days, and probably 10 letters) he finally went away. Needless to say, I'll never send any business to him...

Oh, and if you're reading this, you owe me $200.00. Y'know, 'cause I thought you were excited and everything.

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I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

abaya

Thanks again, folks. Elphaba, thank you for reminding me that it's not my job to seek legal action. I removed all that from my letter.

So I wrote a two-paragraph e-mail back to her, went over every line with both ktspktsp and my dad (whose second job is as a salesperson, but an ethical one who knows his stuff), and called my friend in law school to get her opinion.

I'm still going to wait until morning to send it... just in case I decided to reduce it to a few lines instead. As in, "We have a misunderstanding. I did not sign a contract of any kind and therefore did not agree to pay you any kind of fee. I will not pay you $300."

Mostly, though, I wrote out a bit more because I knew that if it was short, she would respond with all kinds of defenses and assertions... and I wanted to cover those in my e-mail so she would go away and never come back. I hope I covered all the bases... we'll see. Will send in the morning and get back to y'all.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

shakran

as a (video) photographer who has done freelance on a professional basis (as opposed to the alternate dimension asshole basis this photographer seems to be working on) I'll echo everyone else and tell you she's full of crap. No signed contract = no cancellation fee. Period. Your email should be short and sweet.

Dear Photog: There was no contract. There was no agreement for your services. I do not owe you any money. Further contact from you will be considered harassment and will be dealt with accordingly. Regards, etc etc

There is no verbal agreement here. You said you would probably use her. Probably. That she decided that meant you would definitely use her is her problem, not yours. It is certainly a move that a *professional* photographer would never make.

So 1) If she's been doing this 28 years I'll eat my camera.

2) If she really HAS been doing this 28 years then she's one of the biggest idiots in the business.

3) I'm guessing that she's been doing this a few years and has discovered that some hapless fools will actually give her $300 to go away when she pulls this crap. Kudos to you for not falling into this little trap.

4) Tell EVERY SINGLE person you can find who's getting married NOT to approach this fool. Freelance photogs don't need idiots like her mucking up the industry's reputation.

Elphaba

Shakran is wise. Anyone in a reputable service business depends on word of mouth based upon good service. You will tell all of your friends of a good experience, but you will also tell everyone you know of a bad experience.

This lady screams of bad service, because a quality photographer would have a waiting list for that opening that you didn't book.

Marvelous Marv

This is one of the very few threads in which there is 100% agreement. And rightly so.

I was ready to post all of the following, but I was too slow:

Good example. Not really appropriate to say, but its message is accurate.

As a mortgage broker, NoSoup has probably seen more than one time in which the person didn't like a portion of a contract. It's quite clear in the law that if you review a contract and don't like it, you don't sign it, and there is no contract. Happens every day.

And I'll eat his camera if a lawyer is EVER involved in this. They don't work for $300.

From a legal basis, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

ShaniFaye

I want to emphasize this, spreading the word in the online wedding communities is a GREAT way to do this. A *wedding singer* comes to mind immediately...his unproffesionalism was broadcast on wedding boards AND Craigslist and last I heard he was no longer advertising to *brides* lol

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ratbastid

This post is to inform you that each of you who have posted on this thread owe me a $300 Browsing Fee. I accept PayPal, personal checks, or, if you can show two forms of ID, cash.

Lady Sage

I do not know what the laws are in your state.

Here if you didnt sign anything and or nothing was notarized you owe nothing. Let her whine let her throw a tantrum and be sure you report the evil little con artist to the better business bureau!

Rat? The "check" is in the mail. You didnt provide an address though so I sent it to santa. Also, I should inform you that should you recover the check... its rubber. I hav a mortgage man! I dont have that kind of money!

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If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

shakran

OK. I'll deduct it from my $1000 "bill reading" fee.

Ya know, now that I think of it I bet my neighbor would like me to take some pictures 2 days from now. I'll just pencil her in and send her a bill straight away

ShaniFaye

I only work on the barter system

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

Hehehe, you guys crack me up.

I've reduced it down to two very short paragraphs... sticking to the facts. Here is the basic idea (I am using more proper language, of course, in the real message):

Paragraph 1: sorry, but I didn't sign anything, and I'm not paying anything. I told you I had to talk with my fiance before deciding. This is SOP for wedding photography.

Paragraph 2: both the interview and e-mail you sent did not request my signature, nor were they legally-binding. I will not pay you.

That's it. I am feeling better about the shorter version. Thoughts?

On the side, I don't know why this is so hard for me. I guess I am very wary of committing anything to a written form, in case it will be used against me... this whole thing is giving me an unexpected level of anxiety.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Lady Sage

Have a glass of wine, take a nice long bath, light some incense and relax on the couch with a cat on your lap and a book in your hand.

You have taken care of the evil woman and now its time to pamper yourself.
Ah, ah! No protesting about not having time. Make time, no one is more important in your life than you are and if you dont take care of yourself who will?
Now go take that bath.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

pig

abaya,

just read the whole thread.

1. congratulations to the two of you.

2. keep it short. don't waste anymore time writing it. sounds to me like para 1 and 2 basically say the same thing. i bet you can do the whole thing in 1 sentence. after that ignore her. as marv points out: attorney's don't do jack for $300. she'd have to sue for a lot more than that, and she'll lose in civil court.

3. ignore her unless you hear from actual attorneys.

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Frosstbyte

First year contracts:

Contracts require an offer and an acceptance, along with specificity of terms.

Clearly what we have here is an offer to provide services on a set date for a set price (I assume she gave you a price).

Nowhere in this series of events did you manifest intent to accept, nor did you act in any way that would cause her to reasonably rely on your actions. If this did go to court, it would be laughed out. Nothing about your conduct reflects traditional acceptance-verbal or otherwise.

Scam artists suck, but they usually go away. I'd just ignore her.

Congratulations, regardless.

abaya

That pretty much sums it up. And yes, she did offer me a price. And yes, I was still enthusiastic. BUT there were no witnesses if she thinks there was a verbal agreement (I really think that's her conviction, scam or otherwise), and there is no signed contract whatsoever.

In any case, I sent the previously posted e-mail at last. I wanted to get rid of it before it took up any more of my time. I was still a bit nervous, but felt good about the final wording. She has not responded yet. We'll see what happens. Will keep you guys updated!

Thanks again for the support. Ktspktsp and I appreciate it.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sultana

Darn it! I just had a glass of bath with a nice long couch while I lit some book and relaxed on the cat with wine in my hand.

But it was still quite pampering :P

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.