Stop Snitchin' in a culture of failure - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

keyshawn · 08-28-2006, 04:38 PM

Hey,

This has been talked about it a bit in the media in the past year or so, but this last article I read about it inspired me to post about it here.
(article is below, link to is http://select.nytimes.com/2006/08/24...24herbert.html and only available to subscribers)

Quote:

New York Times
August 24, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
A Triumph of Felons and Failure
By BOB HERBERT

I was browsing at a newsstand in Manhattan recently when I came across a magazine called Felon. It was the “Stop Snitchin’ ” issue, and the first letter to the editor began: “Yo, wassup Felon!”

Another letter was from “your nigga John-Jay,” who was kind enough to write: “To my bitches, I love ya’ll.”

Later I came across a magazine called F.E.D.S., which professes to be about “convicted criminals—street thugs—music—fashion—film—etc.” The headline “Stop Snitching” was emblazoned on the cover. “Hundreds of kilos of coke,” said another headline, “over a dozen murders,” and “no one flipped.”

What we have here are symptoms of a depressing cultural illness, frequently fatal, that has spread unchecked through much of black America.

The people who are laid low by this illness don’t snitch on criminals, seldom marry, frequently abandon their children, refer to themselves in the vilest terms (niggers, whores, etc.), spend extraordinary amounts of time kicking back in correctional institutions, and generally wallow in the deepest depths of degradation their irresponsible selves can find.

In his new book, “Enough,” which is about the vacuum of leadership and the feverish array of problems that are undermining black Americans, Juan Williams gives us a glimpse of the issue of snitching that has become an obsession with gang members, drug dealers and other predatory lowlifes — not to mention the editors of magazines aimed at the felonious mainstream.

“In October 2002,” he writes, “the living hell caused by crime in the black community burst into flames in Baltimore. A black mother of five testified against a Northeast Baltimore drug dealer. The next day her row house was fire-bombed. She managed to put out the flames that time. Two weeks later, at 2 a.m. as the family slept, the house was set on fire again. This time the drug dealer broke open the front door and took care in splashing gasoline on the lone staircase that provided exit for people asleep in the second- and third-floor bedrooms.

“Angela Dawson, the 36-year-old mother, and her five children, aged 9 to 14, burned to death. Her husband, Carnell, 43, jumped from a second-story window. He had burns over most of his body and died a few days later.”

If white people were doing to black people what black people are doing to black people, there would be rioting from coast to coast. As Mr. Williams writes, “Something terrible has happened.”

When was it that the proud tradition of Frederick Douglass and W. E. B. DuBois, Harriet Tubman and Mary McLeod Bethune, Louis Armstrong and Billie Holiday and Duke Ellington, Martin Luther King and Thurgood Marshall, gave way to glossy felon magazines and a shameful silence in the face of nationally organized stop-snitching campaigns?

In an interview, Mr. Williams said: “There are so many things that we know are indicators of a crisis within the community. When you look at the high dropout rate, especially among our boys. Or the out-of-wedlock birthrate, which is really alarming. Or the high rate of incarceration.

“When you hear boys saying it’s a ‘rite of passage’ to go to jail, or the thing that is so controversial but has been going on for a while — kids telling other kids that if they’re trying to do well in school they’re trying to ‘act better than me,’ or ‘trying to act white’ — all of these are indications of a culture of failure. These are things that undermine a child or an individual who is trying to do better for himself or herself. These are things that drag you down.”

Enough, in Mr. Williams’s view, is enough. His book is a cry for a new generation of African-American leadership at all levels to fill the vacuum left by those who, for whatever reasons, abandoned the tradition of struggle, hard-won pride and self-determination. That absence of leadership has led to an onslaught of crippling, self-destructive behavior.

Mr. Williams does not deny for a moment the continued debilitating effects of racism. But racism is not taking the same toll it took a half-century ago. It is up to blacks themselves to embrace the current opportunities for academic achievement and professional advancement, to build the strong families that allow youngsters to flourish, and to create a cultural environment that turns its back on crime, ignorance and self-abasement.

More blacks are leading successful lives now than ever before. But too many, especially among the young, are caught in a crucible of failure and degradation. This needs to change. Enough is enough.

What do you think is driving young black men to not reveal what they know about crimes ?
Does it just go back to similar principles of the grade school level where you didn't snitch or rat out other kids in your grade for fear of being made fun of or bullied ?
Or in the case of the mafia, staying silent to stay alive ?

I think the 'stop snitchin' campaign is a combination of distrust and disgust towards law enforcement and the prison system (believing that selling drugs shouldn't merit a harsh prison sentence and that there's no or very few other opportunities to make a buck exist, so neighbors don't report drug activity)

One thing that I think the article fails to mention is that this 'culture of failure' isn't exclusive to blacks or any race. (So far in my short life) It exists nearly everywhere, although virtually non-existant in some healthier and more stable communities.
It existed, to an extent, in my neighborhood with some of my peers. They didn't feel a future with college (and that college or completing high school wasn't for them) and just didn't care for the future, they just wanted to live in the present and immediate future.

Also,
What observations do you have about this 'culture of failure' and 'acting white' ?

catcha back on the flipside,
keyshawn

genuinegirly · 08-28-2006, 08:40 PM

Wow... um.. this reporter doesn't mince words.
Good choice in articles, keyshawn.

I've seen this topic in the news as well. Great to see it coming to the forum.
Why they show this "culture of failure" in the black community, and not others, I don't understand. I have seen it in Latino communities, in Caucasian communities, etc. It's definitely not a problem specific to any particular demographic. We try to show that it is by statistics - oh, this isn't something that this demographic has to deal with, so it's not our issue to fix... rather than "this is a trend of human nature and must be addressed as such." I found this article demeaning and repulsive. I see the intentions behind this article as genuine - this guy really wants to see some change. but... really... there are plenty of creamy-ivory-skinned folks who have the same negative pressures.

To see a change, it takes good people that are strong enough to stand up and say that they're going to live a good life.

JStrider · 08-28-2006, 09:05 PM

you should change the code tags to quote tags, so you dont have to scroll back and forth to read it.

filtherton · 08-28-2006, 09:57 PM

This is the type of thing you can't talk about without being considered a racist. That's why racial politics in america are fucked.

The_Jazz · 08-29-2006, 05:20 AM

I agree with genuinegirly that there are other pockets of "cultures of failure" in the US, but I also think that the largest and most pervasive is what's going in urban Black American right now. "Stop snitching" is more of a symptom than a cause, but I think that it all goes back to the glorification of the gangster that started in the 80's. You could probably make an arguement that it's all a perversion of what the Black Panthers were trying to do in the 70's, but that's another discussion.

One of my roommates in college grew up in downtown Detroit and refused to go back during breaks. His mom would take a bus to her sister's house in Cincinnati to see him at Christmas, etc. This was in the early 90's, but he described it as being something that he would never go back to, even to help. That ended up being a crock since he is now some sort of higher-up for Magic Johnson's enterprises.

JustJess · 08-29-2006, 05:43 AM

I think it's a problem throughout all factions of our society, but I do think it's more prevalent in black culture. Having dealt with a huge variety of people by now... the 'victimology' feelings are even stronger in that culture. There are a lot of 'whys'... but do you think that knowing why will help change it? Or is that a pointless diversion from fixing the problem? And where the hell did all the solid models of black culture go?

roachboy · 08-29-2006, 06:39 AM

it is difficult to tell much about what juan williams (juan williams? what?) might have to say from the nyt puff piece above---when i used to watch tv, he was among my least favorite talking heads, seeming prone to one-dimensional analyses of complex situations, topped off with a steaming bouquet of conservativism...but who knows....

from the article, though, i am already suspicious in that there seems to be no particular place for disparities in power--what you have instead is a kind of depressing sequence of statements that appeal more to class biais than analysis (middle-class horror at what poorer folk get up to)---which makes me wonder if the book will blur class in general into feature of nature ---which of course leaves essentialism as the logical remainder (wnt a good example of what trying to avoid class does? think rush limbaugh and other parallel fuckwits on the topic of poverty)--o those terrible poor folk and their "lowlife" ways (from the article)---they do not co-operate with those fine fellows in law enforcement (which is presented simply as a noun, as if saying the words "law enforcement" constitutes an analysis of the social functions of the police, particularly in poorer neighborhoods--social functions that are routinely not at all like the friendly cop on the block--but hey, why bother with that detail? for a conservative middle-class readership, "law enforcement" is an adequate signifier)--they are alienated from the educational system---they see no particular future for themselves (if you strip the two preceding factors out of a class analysis, you--again--end up blaming the poor for their own exclusion from the american system of social reproduction--which is cheap and easy--but which says nothing, really)---worse still, these poor folk do not stop with the fact of being-excluded--no, they even attempt to fashion some sense of positive identification outside the reach of the bourgeois order and--worse still--they try to hide these patterns of identification...

williams, like many middle-class writers before him, offers what amounts to the classic middle class lament in such cases:

where is their bourgeois redeemer?

which can be translated into the real lament: why cant everybody be like us?
or
why cant everybody know their place and stay there?

the litany of leaders is indeed strange: w.e.b. dubois' work--particularly his sociological work on the african-american community in philadelphia and "the souls of black folk"--demonstrate in great detail the fiasco that has been the american treatment of african-americans in general since the civil war---the systematic intertwining of race and class discrimination, etc.--du bois was a strong marxian analyst who is now being reduced to some bizarre exemplar of "leadership" within a system that his work never ceased to oppose.

douglas' speech on the hyporcrisy of the 4th of july still resonates politically--but not here, where he too is reduced to an empty proper name strung up by middle class writers as an example of a defender of a system that his writings endlessly criticizes for its complacent acceptance of racism...

read almost anything by or about the main jazz players and you get nothing like this cheerleading for an endless bourgeois america...

i dont know---there are alot of bad signs presented by this article, and, like a said, i cant think of a television talking head i would less think able to deal adequately with the complexity of race-class intertwining and the ambiguities of relations to power/authority shaped by them than juan williams--except maybe john stossel or geraldo rivera.

maybe i'll read the book if i see it in a library, though: i am certainly not going to buy it, not based on this nyt piece at least.

Sage · 08-29-2006, 06:59 AM

Having lived in rural NC for most of my life, I have seen my share of rednecks. And I mean, really assed poor, no teeth, no personal hygene, country talking REDNECKS. Plenty of people would look at them and begin to make comparisons between them and urban blacks, but there is a difference. Rednecks wouldn't ever firebomb a house (that I know of... at least around here). The worst mischeif they'd get up to would be playing baseball with mailboxes.

That being said, I think that part of the reason there's such a problem with black people acting like they're all fucked up (as a nitche of society) is because they THINK like they're all fucked up. This was a topic that was talked about extensively in my Sociology class in college. If you grew up in an urban black neighborhood, getting beat up every day in school, never learning anything much because your classes were so rowdy, afraid of being raped in the bathroom, hearing gunshots every night, then most likely the only thing that looks anywhere near glamorous would be being a rap star, a sports star, or in a gang or dealing drugs. Those are "professions" that one can rise to fame in regardless of education or background. So, thinking they're going to be a big rap star, they further stop caring about going to school, which only hamstrings their choices even further.

What do I think can be done? Unfortunately for the white community, not much. Black people have this huge sense of entitlement because it's been drilled into their heads that they're "owed" something. Bill Cosby tried, unsuccessfully, to call them out on it, and was immediately shouted down for encouraging young blacks to cater to the white man. I think there's more racisim on the side of blacks than whites (although this is just an opnion).

Yes, by some people's viewpoints I can probably be called a racist. I don't hang out with black people. I would not be particularly keen if more black people moved into my apartment complex. If I saw a group of three or four young black "thuggish looking" men walking towards me on the sidewalk, I'd probably cross the street if I was alone. The idea that, in other countries like England, there is no "urban black culture" intrigues me, because honestly I've never met a black person who didn't have a huge chip on their shoulder simply because they were black.

As far as being racist because of skin color? That's bullshit. Perhaps people wouldn't be so afraid of black people if black people didn't have this huge social stima of thuggishness and violence. Unfortunately, the violence feeds the social shunning, which in turn feeds the feelings of being an outcast and leads to more violence.

Ustwo · 08-29-2006, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

it is difficult to tell much about what juan williams (juan williams? what?) might have to say from the nyt puff piece above---when i used to watch tv, he was among my least favorite talking heads, seeming prone to one-dimensional analyses of complex situations, topped off with a steaming bouquet of conservativism...but who knows....

from the article, though, i am already suspicious in that there seems to be no particular place for disparities in power--what you have instead is a kind of depressing sequence of statements that appeal more to class biais than analysis (middle-class horror at what poorer folk get up to)---which makes me wonder if the book will blur class in general into feature of nature ---which of course leaves essentialism as the logical remainder (wnt a good example of what trying to avoid class does? think rush limbaugh and other parallel fuckwits on the topic of poverty)--o those terrible poor folk and their "lowlife" ways (from the article)---they do not co-operate with those fine fellows in law enforcement (which is presented simply as a noun, as if saying the words "law enforcement" constitutes an analysis of the social functions of the police, particularly in poorer neighborhoods--social functions that are routinely not at all like the friendly cop on the block--but hey, why bother with that detail? for a conservative middle-class readership, "law enforcement" is an adequate signifier)--they are alienated from the educational system---they see no particular future for themselves (if you strip the two preceding factors out of a class analysis, you--again--end up blaming the poor for their own exclusion from the american system of social reproduction--which is cheap and easy--but which says nothing, really)---worse still, these poor folk do not stop with the fact of being-excluded--no, they even attempt to fashion some sense of positive identification outside the reach of the bourgeois order and--worse still--they try to hide these patterns of identification...

williams, like many middle-class writers before him, offers what amounts to the classic middle class lament in such cases:

where is their bourgeois redeemer?

which can be translated into the real lament: why cant everybody be like us?
or
why cant everybody know their place and stay there?

the litany of leaders is indeed strange: w.e.b. dubois' work--particularly his sociological work on the african-american community in philadelphia and "the souls of black folk"--demonstrate in great detail the fiasco that has been the american treatment of african-americans in general since the civil war---the systematic intertwining of race and class discrimination, etc.--du bois was a strong marxian analyst who is now being reduced to some bizarre exemplar of "leadership" within a system that his work never ceased to oppose.

douglas' speech on the hyporcrisy of the 4th of july still resonates politically--but not here, where he too is reduced to an empty proper name strung up by middle class writers as an example of a defender of a system that his writings endlessly criticizes for its complacent acceptance of racism...

read almost anything by or about the main jazz players and you get nothing like this cheerleading for an endless bourgeois america...

i dont know---there are alot of bad signs presented by this article, and, like a said, i cant think of a television talking head i would less think able to deal adequately with the complexity of race-class intertwining and the ambiguities of relations to power/authority shaped by them than juan williams--except maybe john stossel or geraldo rivera.

maybe i'll read the book if i see it in a library, though: i am certainly not going to buy it, not based on this nyt piece at least.

Thats a lot of words to say you don't like conservatives. You don't address the issue but instead attack the notion that there is an issue and somehow blame 'bourgeois' America for it, if there is anything to fault. In the mean time black on black crime fills our prisons, but again thats just because they won't bow to the man of course. You used the phrase 'steaming bouquet of conservativism' but gave us nothing but tired socialist crap in return.

Quote:

they even attempt to fashion some sense of positive identification outside the reach of the bourgeois order

Classic....

Bill O'Rights · 08-29-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

This is the type of thing you can't talk about without being considered a racist.

Agreed. Case in point...

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Why they show this "culture of failure" in the black community, and not others, I don't understand. I have seen it in Latino communities, in Caucasian communities, etc.

Yes, this...so called "culture of failure" is seen in all communities. But...I beleive that it is pervasive in the black community. And don't ask me to cite a bunch of useless statistics. I don't have 'em. What I do have is two 44 year old eyes, and an address that borders on the edge of the "hood". I see, for myself, much of what the op-ed describes, in practice. It's not something that can be painted away with the diversity brush.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

where is their bourgeois redeemer?

which can be translated into the real lament: why cant everybody be like us?
or
why cant everybody know their place and stay there?

What? Responsible, law abiding, productive citizens?

Then color me bourgeois.

“When you hear boys saying it’s a ‘rite of passage’ to go to jail, or the thing that is so controversial but has been going on for a while — kids telling other kids that if they’re trying to do well in school they’re trying to ‘act better than me."
That is no exageration. I saw it first hand, at my daughter's high school. At first, I tried to deny it...but it happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage

The idea that, in other countries like England, there is no "urban black culture" intrigues me, because honestly I've never met a black person who didn't have a huge chip on their shoulder simply because they were black.

I agee with...most of your post. Except for this part. I do have several black friends, that are completely dismissed by the black community, as being "Oreo". That is, black on the outside...white on the inside.
When any type of responsible black leadership is so sumarily dismissed, then what is left to fill the void? Counter culture, over glamorized, street thugs and hoodlums.

I don't have the answers.

roachboy · 08-29-2006, 08:20 AM

so first, let's not pretend that a thread like this is going to even begin to approach anything substantial on the complex topic of how socially and economically marginalized groups organize themselves, or the effects of class stratification on education, or the more general effects of american-style poverty and racism on those primarily effected by it. it hasn't and it won't.

ustwo: hilarious response.
i still sometimes wonder if the person behind ustwo is a trotskyist and whether "ustwo" is a finely tuned parody of a conservative.

keyshawn · 08-29-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

so first, let's not pretend that a thread like this is going to even begin to approach anything substantial on the complex topic of how socially and economically marginalized groups organize themselves, or the effects of class stratification on education, or the more general effects of american-style poverty and racism on those primarily effected by it. it hasn't and it won't.

I understand what you mean, I'm looking forward to seeing what my urban sociology class (consisting mainly of naive liberal arts college kids) that I'll be taking in the fall thinks about this.

I feel a bit pragmatic about discussing this race issues, in that I believe experiences hold more weight or validity than just ideology. You have a different take on things, especially really complex issues like racism when you experienced different things than other people have, even more than other issues.

It's worthy of talking on here regardless if this thread doesn't get 'substantial.' - mentioning it on here still makes you think about it and maybe provide some insights (like me, a midwester, getting a perspective from Sage, a southerner) about this topic that we wouldn't know of without the thread.

[its 10 pm, and im tired. rambling]
cya,
will.

Arsenic7 · 08-29-2006, 06:42 PM

Sage, I won't call you a racist but I do think you have some preconcieved notions about how black people act around the country and, I must say, they aren't allways true. Not every black man acts like a thug, and, in fact, a lot of white men do.

The topic article of this thread focuses on New York City and while NYC is a humungous city it is not all that representative of the rest of the country.

You might as well assume that every person that smokes pot acts like pot heads are portrayed in "High Times."

Martel · 08-29-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

so first, let's not pretend that a thread like this is going to even begin to approach anything substantial on the complex topic of how socially and economically marginalized groups organize themselves, or the effects of class stratification on education, or the more general effects of american-style poverty and racism on those primarily effected by it. it hasn't and it won't.

Remind us then why you're wasting your time posting to this "useless" thread?

Sage · 08-29-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

You might as well assume that every person that smokes pot acts like pot heads are portrayed in "High Times."

They don't?

Yeah, I have not had ANY exposure to black people whatsoever aside from bad expierences and what I've seen in the media. I'm biased because, well, I've never met a black person I liked. That doesn't mean I think all black people are bad, just that so far based on my expierence I only have negative expierences to draw on. I can count on both hands the number of black people I have actually met, talked to, and known the name of. It'd be nice to change that.

Carno · 08-29-2006, 08:15 PM

Where do you live Sage?

krwlz · 08-31-2006, 06:44 AM

I've met cool black kids, and I've met thug black kids. But I will say, the stereotypical black kid is the thug. The fact that any of them embrace that, is bad for all of them. Having lived a few blocks from the "black ghetto" area in Kansas City for a few months, I've seen all kinds.

Gilda · 08-31-2006, 06:41 PM

I've had a good amount of exposure to black kids, at least 11-13 year olds in Southern California. The "no snitching" attitude is pervasive in school culture, and is generally a misapplication of the positive aspects of loyalty. Being loyal to your friends is an admirable quality, but it has to be balanced against doing what's right, and it tends in homogenous subcultures of any kind to be perverted into loyalty to the identified group rather than to one's friends and family, with balancing it against the good of the larger community completely abandoned.

In school culture this tends to mean that you don't report misbehavior, including crimes, even if you are the victim and the others involved are not your friends, aquantances, or otherwise associated with you. It becomes expected among certain leaders that the loyalty normally granted by those close will and should be granted solely because of sharing some superficial characteristic that may not provide any substantive link or any reason to protect them, along with a sense of betrayal when that expected protection is not extended.

For example, bullies expect that their victims won't report their misbehavior and or outright assaults because that is "snitching", and in many school enviroments, this is backed up by the general school population. Not every individual, but the general consensus. The bullies may even feel a sense of betrayal when their victims turn them in and play the victim card themselves among their peers. The same attitudes extend to other behaviors like drugs, cheating, truancy, etc. You must be loyal to the group, even if the group does nothing for you, even if the group is persecuting you. With the bullying and smaller acts of violence, adults can even contribute to the problem by insisting that the kids be allowed to work it out on their own, and that those being targeted need to learn to stand up for themselves.

What it boils down to is the idea that everyone who is like me should always take my side against those who are unlike me.

It creates a situation where reporting dangerous activity isn't seen as being a good citizen, it's ratting on your "friends" even if said friends aren't. In schools this can happen in terms of race, clique, sex, class, but students v. faculty is usually seen as predominant.

In the school where I worked, there was some of the attitude described in the article above among all the groups of boys regardless of race or class, but it was most common among the poorer black boys, with many of the white boys regardless of class trying to imitate them in dress and attitude. It was far less common among the girls of any ethnicity, and entirly absent among the Asian girls.

I imagine that if you translated those conditions to a larger homogenous population with a longer history and deeper intensity of distrust for authority, that all of the facets would be intensified.

I have no idea what the solution, if any, is. One study I read conducted by sociologist Johnathan Crane found that, in black neighborhoods, there was a strong correlation between the number of high status professionals living in the neighborhood (doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners, other professionals) and the rate of certain social problems such as drop out rates, juvinile incarceration, and teen pregnancy. Above about 5%, there was a greatly reduced incidence of these problems, while below 3% they skyrocketed. This tends to coincide with the commonly held wisdom that more positive role models are needed, but it is correlational, and doesn't necessarily indicate causation. Maybe the professionals move out when crime, teen pregnancy, and other problems increase.

Glorifying crime and the criminal subculture through magazines like those described can't be a good idea, though. At best the description leaves me uneasy, and I suspect I might find myself sickened by the attitude described there if the characterization is indeed accurate.

Gilda

Toaster126 · 09-01-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krwlz

I've met cool black kids, and I've met thug black kids. But I will say, the stereotypical black kid is the thug. The fact that any of them embrace that, is bad for all of them. Having lived a few blocks from the "black ghetto" area in Kansas City for a few months, I've seen all kinds.

Where were you in KC?

08-28-2006, 08:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	Wow... um.. this reporter doesn't mince words. Good choice in articles, keyshawn. I've seen this topic in the news as well. Great to see it coming to the forum. Why they show this "culture of failure" in the black community, and not others, I don't understand. I have seen it in Latino communities, in Caucasian communities, etc. It's definitely not a problem specific to any particular demographic. We try to show that it is by statistics - oh, this isn't something that this demographic has to deal with, so it's not our issue to fix... rather than "this is a trend of human nature and must be addressed as such." I found this article demeaning and repulsive. I see the intentions behind this article as genuine - this guy really wants to see some change. but... really... there are plenty of creamy-ivory-skinned folks who have the same negative pressures. To see a change, it takes good people that are strong enough to stand up and say that they're going to live a good life. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy Last edited by genuinegirly; 08-28-2006 at 08:41 PM.. Reason: Because I like to edit.

08-28-2006, 09:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	you should change the code tags to quote tags, so you dont have to scroll back and forth to read it. __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

08-29-2006, 05:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I agree with genuinegirly that there are other pockets of "cultures of failure" in the US, but I also think that the largest and most pervasive is what's going in urban Black American right now. "Stop snitching" is more of a symptom than a cause, but I think that it all goes back to the glorification of the gangster that started in the 80's. You could probably make an arguement that it's all a perversion of what the Black Panthers were trying to do in the 70's, but that's another discussion. One of my roommates in college grew up in downtown Detroit and refused to go back during breaks. His mom would take a bus to her sister's house in Cincinnati to see him at Christmas, etc. This was in the early 90's, but he described it as being something that he would never go back to, even to help. That ended up being a crock since he is now some sort of higher-up for Magic Johnson's enterprises. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-29-2006, 05:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I think it's a problem throughout all factions of our society, but I do think it's more prevalent in black culture. Having dealt with a huge variety of people by now... the 'victimology' feelings are even stronger in that culture. There are a lot of 'whys'... but do you think that knowing why will help change it? Or is that a pointless diversion from fixing the problem? And where the hell did all the solid models of black culture go? __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-29-2006, 06:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	it is difficult to tell much about what juan williams (juan williams? what?) might have to say from the nyt puff piece above---when i used to watch tv, he was among my least favorite talking heads, seeming prone to one-dimensional analyses of complex situations, topped off with a steaming bouquet of conservativism...but who knows.... from the article, though, i am already suspicious in that there seems to be no particular place for disparities in power--what you have instead is a kind of depressing sequence of statements that appeal more to class biais than analysis (middle-class horror at what poorer folk get up to)---which makes me wonder if the book will blur class in general into feature of nature ---which of course leaves essentialism as the logical remainder (wnt a good example of what trying to avoid class does? think rush limbaugh and other parallel fuckwits on the topic of poverty)--o those terrible poor folk and their "lowlife" ways (from the article)---they do not co-operate with those fine fellows in law enforcement (which is presented simply as a noun, as if saying the words "law enforcement" constitutes an analysis of the social functions of the police, particularly in poorer neighborhoods--social functions that are routinely not at all like the friendly cop on the block--but hey, why bother with that detail? for a conservative middle-class readership, "law enforcement" is an adequate signifier)--they are alienated from the educational system---they see no particular future for themselves (if you strip the two preceding factors out of a class analysis, you--again--end up blaming the poor for their own exclusion from the american system of social reproduction--which is cheap and easy--but which says nothing, really)---worse still, these poor folk do not stop with the fact of being-excluded--no, they even attempt to fashion some sense of positive identification outside the reach of the bourgeois order and--worse still--they try to hide these patterns of identification... williams, like many middle-class writers before him, offers what amounts to the classic middle class lament in such cases: where is their bourgeois redeemer? which can be translated into the real lament: why cant everybody be like us? or why cant everybody know their place and stay there? the litany of leaders is indeed strange: w.e.b. dubois' work--particularly his sociological work on the african-american community in philadelphia and "the souls of black folk"--demonstrate in great detail the fiasco that has been the american treatment of african-americans in general since the civil war---the systematic intertwining of race and class discrimination, etc.--du bois was a strong marxian analyst who is now being reduced to some bizarre exemplar of "leadership" within a system that his work never ceased to oppose. douglas' speech on the hyporcrisy of the 4th of july still resonates politically--but not here, where he too is reduced to an empty proper name strung up by middle class writers as an example of a defender of a system that his writings endlessly criticizes for its complacent acceptance of racism... read almost anything by or about the main jazz players and you get nothing like this cheerleading for an endless bourgeois america... i dont know---there are alot of bad signs presented by this article, and, like a said, i cant think of a television talking head i would less think able to deal adequately with the complexity of race-class intertwining and the ambiguities of relations to power/authority shaped by them than juan williams--except maybe john stossel or geraldo rivera. maybe i'll read the book if i see it in a library, though: i am certainly not going to buy it, not based on this nyt piece at least. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-28-2006, 09:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	This is the type of thing you can't talk about without being considered a racist. That's why racial politics in america are fucked.

08-29-2006, 06:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	Having lived in rural NC for most of my life, I have seen my share of rednecks. And I mean, really assed poor, no teeth, no personal hygene, country talking REDNECKS. Plenty of people would look at them and begin to make comparisons between them and urban blacks, but there is a difference. Rednecks wouldn't ever firebomb a house (that I know of... at least around here). The worst mischeif they'd get up to would be playing baseball with mailboxes. That being said, I think that part of the reason there's such a problem with black people acting like they're all fucked up (as a nitche of society) is because they THINK like they're all fucked up. This was a topic that was talked about extensively in my Sociology class in college. If you grew up in an urban black neighborhood, getting beat up every day in school, never learning anything much because your classes were so rowdy, afraid of being raped in the bathroom, hearing gunshots every night, then most likely the only thing that looks anywhere near glamorous would be being a rap star, a sports star, or in a gang or dealing drugs. Those are "professions" that one can rise to fame in regardless of education or background. So, thinking they're going to be a big rap star, they further stop caring about going to school, which only hamstrings their choices even further. What do I think can be done? Unfortunately for the white community, not much. Black people have this huge sense of entitlement because it's been drilled into their heads that they're "owed" something. Bill Cosby tried, unsuccessfully, to call them out on it, and was immediately shouted down for encouraging young blacks to cater to the white man. I think there's more racisim on the side of blacks than whites (although this is just an opnion). Yes, by some people's viewpoints I can probably be called a racist. I don't hang out with black people. I would not be particularly keen if more black people moved into my apartment complex. If I saw a group of three or four young black "thuggish looking" men walking towards me on the sidewalk, I'd probably cross the street if I was alone. The idea that, in other countries like England, there is no "urban black culture" intrigues me, because honestly I've never met a black person who didn't have a huge chip on their shoulder simply because they were black. As far as being racist because of skin color? That's bullshit. Perhaps people wouldn't be so afraid of black people if black people didn't have this huge social stima of thuggishness and violence. Unfortunately, the violence feeds the social shunning, which in turn feeds the feelings of being an outcast and leads to more violence. __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi

08-29-2006, 08:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so first, let's not pretend that a thread like this is going to even begin to approach anything substantial on the complex topic of how socially and economically marginalized groups organize themselves, or the effects of class stratification on education, or the more general effects of american-style poverty and racism on those primarily effected by it. it hasn't and it won't. ustwo: hilarious response. i still sometimes wonder if the person behind ustwo is a trotskyist and whether "ustwo" is a finely tuned parody of a conservative. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-29-2006, 06:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
Arsenic7 Insane Location: Corvallis, OR.	Sage, I won't call you a racist but I do think you have some preconcieved notions about how black people act around the country and, I must say, they aren't allways true. Not every black man acts like a thug, and, in fact, a lot of white men do. The topic article of this thread focuses on New York City and while NYC is a humungous city it is not all that representative of the rest of the country. You might as well assume that every person that smokes pot acts like pot heads are portrayed in "High Times." __________________ This is no sig.

08-29-2006, 08:15 PM	#16 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Where do you live Sage? __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

08-31-2006, 06:44 AM	#17 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	I've met cool black kids, and I've met thug black kids. But I will say, the stereotypical black kid is the thug. The fact that any of them embrace that, is bad for all of them. Having lived a few blocks from the "black ghetto" area in Kansas City for a few months, I've seen all kinds.

08-31-2006, 06:41 PM	#18 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I've had a good amount of exposure to black kids, at least 11-13 year olds in Southern California. The "no snitching" attitude is pervasive in school culture, and is generally a misapplication of the positive aspects of loyalty. Being loyal to your friends is an admirable quality, but it has to be balanced against doing what's right, and it tends in homogenous subcultures of any kind to be perverted into loyalty to the identified group rather than to one's friends and family, with balancing it against the good of the larger community completely abandoned. In school culture this tends to mean that you don't report misbehavior, including crimes, even if you are the victim and the others involved are not your friends, aquantances, or otherwise associated with you. It becomes expected among certain leaders that the loyalty normally granted by those close will and should be granted solely because of sharing some superficial characteristic that may not provide any substantive link or any reason to protect them, along with a sense of betrayal when that expected protection is not extended. For example, bullies expect that their victims won't report their misbehavior and or outright assaults because that is "snitching", and in many school enviroments, this is backed up by the general school population. Not every individual, but the general consensus. The bullies may even feel a sense of betrayal when their victims turn them in and play the victim card themselves among their peers. The same attitudes extend to other behaviors like drugs, cheating, truancy, etc. You must be loyal to the group, even if the group does nothing for you, even if the group is persecuting you. With the bullying and smaller acts of violence, adults can even contribute to the problem by insisting that the kids be allowed to work it out on their own, and that those being targeted need to learn to stand up for themselves. What it boils down to is the idea that everyone who is like me should always take my side against those who are unlike me. It creates a situation where reporting dangerous activity isn't seen as being a good citizen, it's ratting on your "friends" even if said friends aren't. In schools this can happen in terms of race, clique, sex, class, but students v. faculty is usually seen as predominant. In the school where I worked, there was some of the attitude described in the article above among all the groups of boys regardless of race or class, but it was most common among the poorer black boys, with many of the white boys regardless of class trying to imitate them in dress and attitude. It was far less common among the girls of any ethnicity, and entirly absent among the Asian girls. I imagine that if you translated those conditions to a larger homogenous population with a longer history and deeper intensity of distrust for authority, that all of the facets would be intensified. I have no idea what the solution, if any, is. One study I read conducted by sociologist Johnathan Crane found that, in black neighborhoods, there was a strong correlation between the number of high status professionals living in the neighborhood (doctors, lawyers, teachers, business owners, other professionals) and the rate of certain social problems such as drop out rates, juvinile incarceration, and teen pregnancy. Above about 5%, there was a greatly reduced incidence of these problems, while below 3% they skyrocketed. This tends to coincide with the commonly held wisdom that more positive role models are needed, but it is correlational, and doesn't necessarily indicate causation. Maybe the professionals move out when crime, teen pregnancy, and other problems increase. Glorifying crime and the criminal subculture through magazines like those described can't be a good idea, though. At best the description leaves me uneasy, and I suspect I might find myself sickened by the attitude described there if the characterization is indeed accurate. Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert