06-13-2006, 02:34 PM | #41 (permalink) | ||
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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06-13-2006, 03:37 PM | #42 (permalink) | |
Fledgling Dead Head
Location: Clarkson U.
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I know my car pretty well, and I'm anal about any noise, vibration, shudder, and odd feel I get. Luckily, I'm educated enough, and smart enough to usually deduce where it might be comming from, and take a look at it myself. If I notice anything fishy, I get a second opinion by my favorite mechanic... My father. And then him and I do the work. To all... If you have the opportunity, next time something needs work on your car (even if its just brakes and an oil change), and you have a family member, or friend who can do the work for you... Tag along, learn how to do it. In the process, you will learn enough to recognize a lot more problems than you think. Ask questions, hell, even do the work, just have him/her show you what to do. |
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06-13-2006, 04:13 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Gilda |
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06-13-2006, 04:36 PM | #44 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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06-14-2006, 09:07 AM | #45 (permalink) |
Tilted
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Want a way for non-car-geeks to make sure this doesn't happen to you ?
Watch them as they perform the service, and ask questions. Keep it friendly while you are talking to them so they don't see you as a nag (talk to them more like a friend than an employee). If you are hanging around every step of the way, they will be a lot less likely to skip something since there is an eye-witness. If they do not allow you in the garage to watch, be VERY suspect of the work they are doing. There is no OSHA standard that says you cannot be in there with them. The only restriction is that you cannot be under the car (in the pit or beneath a lifted car). If you are worried about them putting used oil in your car, there is a simple way to avoid it. Request a non-standard oil type. If you ask for a Synthetic Blend, or Synthetic oil, I can almost guarantee you will see them reach for a brand new bottle and break the seal on it as you stand there. If you don't want to change your car to expensive synthetics, you can simply request a different 'weight' of oil than what they have in the machine. Most oil change places will only have your standard 10w30 or 10w40 on-tap. Any different weights will need to come from a bottle, and will generally not cost extra. If you do request a different weight oil, keep in mind, the lower numbered weights (5w30, and 5w20) are for newer cars or for cold weather, while higher weights (15w40 and 20w50) are for older cars and warmer weather. Either that, or you can just bring your own oil and have them use it. Typically cars will need 3.5 to 4 litres, while trucks, or larger V-8 cars will use 4.5-6 litres. You can check the car's manual to see how much it takes. The only downside of bringing your own is that some shops will not warranty their work if you do not use their oil. |
06-14-2006, 09:51 AM | #46 (permalink) |
Knight of the Old Republic
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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That video is pretty messed up but the fact that Jiffy Lube's oil changes are $38 is the biggest ripoff in my opinion.
__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert |
06-14-2006, 10:05 AM | #47 (permalink) |
Watcher
Location: Ohio
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MrSelfDestruct,
That's a great post there. I do my own work, and I think you just saved me a lot of typing; there's nothing you typed I don't agree with. Just wanted to give you a for putting your effort into the thread and getting accurate info out there.
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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." |
06-14-2006, 11:43 AM | #48 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Shoreline, WA, USA
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One reason we bought a Saturn was that there is less history of thousands of makes and models to know. So it seems to me that most Saturn dealership people are well trained since they don't have to know that many models. But still I ask for all used parts in a paper bag. One guy tried to hand me some leaky busted part by hand, and I said, "I need a paper bag", so he went and got one.
I went to Firestone once for a oil change and they left the oil cap off and I drove off. So now I always check for the oil cap before driving away. The smart oil change techs will put the oil cap in such a place so that the hood cannot close. That way it will always be put back on. I went to a Jiffy Lube clone place in Seattle as that was the closest place that AAA would tow my car. The clutch needed to be done and so I let them do it. The car broke down on the highway after 5 miles from the repair place. Needless to say I had to almost force the manager to test drive the vehicle until they fixed the grinding noises at high speeds. Thank goodness for AAA. Jiffy Lube and their clones are for oil changes only and only if I have a coupon. We also have a geo metro and we have anti-war stickers on it. Sometimes I have gotten shitty service and I often wonder if some uber patriotic repair person doesn't like me. I guess I now understand why some people never put stickers on their car. Another thing about cars I learned from my gpa, was that batteries can last longer if you trim the terminals every so often if they get corroded. He had a little tool with metal brushes and a blade to trim the metal. Worked like a charm and I would assume that it might prevent some electrical problems. The geo metro recently got a new water filter, and I got fcked with a 400 dollar bill. I wish I had read this thread earlier so I could have taken it to some other place for $250. But the geo metro water filter lasted 16 years so that is good right ? Jonathan One last thing about dealerships. Try all the dealerships in your area and then you will get in on all their coupon mailings. Most of the dealerships take competetor coupons. Also some Saturn dealerships wash my windows, or vaccuum out the driver side foot well, or sometimes have even washed our Saturn for no apparent reason. Some even have free popcorn, which is awesome since I hate coffee. Keeping the customer happy I guess. (^: Jonathan Last edited by opus123; 06-14-2006 at 11:51 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
06-14-2006, 12:38 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
Asshole
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo |
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06-14-2006, 03:33 PM | #50 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Needless to say the son of the owner was fighting in Iraq, and the father was a two-tour Vet of Vietnam. He did not mess with the car in any way, he just simply stated he was not going to service the car. I heard through the grapevine he went to 2-3 other towns and everyone refused to service the car. That's why I dont have any bumper stickers on my truck (save for one UT). |
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06-14-2006, 03:47 PM | #51 (permalink) | |
Rookie
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Edit: To make it more clear.
__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips Last edited by Gatorade Frost; 06-14-2006 at 05:07 PM.. |
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06-14-2006, 04:23 PM | #52 (permalink) | ||
Tone.
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Except that if they close the hood hard enough they'll bend it. That can be an expensive repair. Better to just remember to put the damn thing back on Quote:
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06-14-2006, 07:01 PM | #53 (permalink) | |
peekaboo
Location: on the back, bitch
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Example: My car was making a HORRID noise over a year ago. (Horrid to me at least) I knew where it was coming from(right front and a second noise in the rear) and could describe it to a tee. At first, spouse would roll his eyes. The noise continued to get worse, I complained, he put me off. Finally, he 'looked' under the car, announced I needed new struts and center control arm bushings. He was wrong. Struts were fine. What wasn't fine, that he thought I was crazy about, was the passenger side control arm, front stabilizers, center control arm bushings, rear linkage, total cost $1200. We become complacent and think cars are indestructible and that mechanics 'know' everything. That's how these rip-off artists manage to stay in business-they're banking on the ignorance of so many. The fact is, I DON'T have much faith in anyone but myself about my car and everyone should think the same way to prevent the very ripoffs this thread is highlighting.
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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em. |
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06-14-2006, 07:27 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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Most Saturn service depts. will wash your car. They will also toe the line on honesty, but their charges may be much more, especially if you bring in a non-Saturn vehicle. The coffee and the popcorn is nice. Once they let me watch a DVD in the back seat of an L300.
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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
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06-15-2006, 12:23 AM | #55 (permalink) | |
Leave me alone!
Location: Alaska, USA
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Back button again, I must be getting old. |
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06-17-2006, 09:44 AM | #56 (permalink) | |||||||||||
The sky calls to us ...
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06-19-2006, 06:35 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Toronto
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My best friend was a mechanic at a couple of GM dealerships. What they would do is when you bring your car in for service, say the wipers aren't working, they will tell you that you need a new module. The reality was that the fuse was blown (say). You pay 500 for the new module, but it never goes in your car. The mechanic keeps the 500 part. Now, you are thinking, well, what's he going to do with that part? Answer, the parts department buys it back from him for 15 or 20 cents on the dollar. Seriously. How do you like those apples? I bought a new car from the dealer in April 2005. The scam they ALWAYS try to pull is to get you to buy into their scheduled maintenance program. They have: Shedule A Schdule B Schedule C They all feature oil changes. I believe in oil changes. After that, they get pretty iffy. Schedule C features a lot of "Inspection Work", and cleaning, adjusting and lubricating the brake caliper pins. Cost of Schedule C = $399.00. One of the funny ones was that they would inspect the Air Conditioning. I said to the guy, "well, if the AC doesn't work, I'll know and I'll bring it back to you and you will fix it for free cause the car is still under warrantee. Why the hell would I possibly pay you to inspect the AC??? Seriously. Everytime you call, they tell you, "Oh, you are due for Schedule Whatever" and I tell them, no, I just want an oil change. They get all pissy, but I don't give a fuck. When I decline the BS service, they even wrote it on the invoice that I declined Schedule C. I look at the maintenance manual from the manufacturer and none of what the dealership is trying to sell me is on the list. I believe in changing the oil without fail, change the transmission oil at 50,000 km, and the coolant as well. Change the Air filter when it gets dirty, and the PCV valve and fuel filter every 100,000 km. Other than that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Last edited by james t kirk; 06-19-2006 at 06:58 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-20-2006, 10:05 AM | #59 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Warranties do require scheduled maintenance. However they just require the maintenance listed in the owners manual, which can be quite a different story from the maintenance sold by the repair shops.
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One thing we were always required to do though was bill out fluids on every repair, whether we needed them or not. For example if I replaced a water pump under warranty I didn't get paid to flush the entire cooling system so I just topped it off. I still had to bill out the full amount of antifreeze for the entire system though, or I got in trouble. Before you know it, I had 10 gallons of unopened antifreeze sitting on my workbench and I got yelled at for having too much laying around. I couldn't win Last edited by laconic1; 06-20-2006 at 10:21 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-20-2006, 11:35 AM | #60 (permalink) |
Non-Rookie
Location: Green Bay, WI
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FIrst off, a quick question to anyone that is more knowledgeable than I about cars....
In 2003, I bought a brand new Ford Mustang. I have heard conflicting information about how often I should change the oil - some people have told me every 2000 miles, others have told me that with a newer vehicle you can go up to 5000 miles. Can anyone clarify? As far as shady business practices go, about a year and a half after I had purchased my car, my check engine light came on. I brought it to the dealership and asked them to tell me why it was on. They said that they were busy, so they'd inspect the vehicle and I could pick it up at the end of the day. Later that day I got a call from them and they told me that they hadn't had a chance to inspect it, but would do so first thing in the morning. To make a long story short, after several calls the next day, I was told that I could pick it up at 4:30 pm. Originally, I had an estimate of $29.00 or whatever for the inspection. Imagine my surprise when I went there and got slapped with a nearly $900.00 bill. I asked them how in the world I had a bill that high, as I had only wanted an inspection done and it was still under warrently. Basically, they told me how I had apparently run over a rock or something and it had bounced around under my car and caused a ton of damage, including severing a brake line and partially perforating my fuel lines. I was told they had to replace a fairly large portion of both lines. Of course, it wasn't covered under warrently, as I had caused the damage. Although I don't have a ton of experience with cars, it sounded... possible, though not likely. I thought perhaps they were exaggerating a bit, as had my brake line actually been severed, I wouldn't be able to stop. I told them that at the very least they should have called me and gotten permission. I asked to see the old parts, and they had convieniently thrown them away. I then asked to have my car lifted up so I could take a look at the work. After a bit of bickering - they didn't want to let me under the car for liability reasons - they lifted the car. I could see that there was absolutely no difference anywhere that I could see in the fuel and/or brake lines. I asked the mechanic which area had been replaced, and he pointed to a particular line that ran nearly the length of the vehicle. I asked him why it was so dirty and looked just like the rest of the vehicle's lines - his excuse? The mechanics who worked on my car probably had oil all over their hands from working on cars all day. Unfortunately for the morons that were trying to rip me off, I had helped the owner's son finance the purchase of a vacation property about a month prior to that. I made a quick call to him standing in the shop, and needless to say, I didn't pay the bill, nor ever take my vehicle back there again...
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I have an aura of reliability and good judgement. Just in case you were wondering... |
06-25-2006, 10:55 AM | #61 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Toronto
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My friend had his own shop at one time and I was there once and there was a huge box of parts and I asked him what was up with that. Apparently he had offered a better price for all the "extra" parts than the parts department at the dealership was paying, so he had a pile of brand new GM parts at a fraction of the price. Buyer beware I guess. Quote:
Interesting story by the way. As an aside, I just purchased a shop manual for my car. I find them invaluable if you want to fix your own car and money well spent. It amazes me the level of detail in this manual (4 volumes) as opposed to my old GM manual for my 97 buick (2 volumes) All in all, the manuals weighed 18 pounds (shipping tag) Last edited by james t kirk; 06-25-2006 at 11:00 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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06-25-2006, 02:41 PM | #63 (permalink) |
Adequate
Location: In my angry-dome.
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Gilda, you should be. Horror stories are endless. At least expect a high vulture:goodguy ratio. Good wrenches know they're diamonds in the rough. Find them by whatever means and treat them like gold.
__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
06-27-2006, 07:08 AM | #64 (permalink) | |
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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06-27-2006, 11:36 AM | #65 (permalink) |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Ok, here's one I've always wondered, since we're talking about it. It doesn't apply to my car, which has a display that says when to change the oil, but why the x months or x miles requirements? I understand the miles, and I understand the different schedules for different driving conditions, but if I'm only driving my car say 300 miles every month, do I really need to still change the oil every six months?
Gilda |
06-27-2006, 05:29 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Tone.
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Kinda depends Gilda. If those 300 miles involve starting it, driving 3 blocks, then shutting it off, then yeah, you probably need to change it that often. If it's mostly highway miles (not excessive stops/starts, and the car gets fully warmed up before you shut it off) then you're probably good waiting a bit longer.
You change the oil for two reasons: tiny little metal particles from engine wear get into the oil and cause faster engine wear. Changing the oil gets rid of them. The other big reason is that over time the oil breaks down, you get water in it, etc. In short, your oil is no longer as oily as it was, so it doesn't lubricate as well. While you won't get as many metal particles in the engine only driving 1800 miles as you would driving 3000 miles (assuming you're not starting it and switching it off excessively), your oil could still absorb water, especially if its humid where you live. Here's how I look at it. I have a Honda with 300,000 miles on it, and the damn thing still starts every morning and still runs like a champ. I change the oil every 3000 miles/6 months religiously. It's 20 bucks that helps ensure I won't end up paying 1,500 bucks to replace the engine |
06-27-2006, 06:04 PM | #67 (permalink) |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Thanks. It isn't an issue with my car, because the car's computer says when it needs an oil change, but I did wonder about why the time would matter. Thank you for explaining.
I hope this isn't hijacking things too much, but what is the advantage of Synthetic oil? Grace told me to make sure that they used that when I took it in for its first oil change a couple of months back. Gilda |
06-27-2006, 06:31 PM | #68 (permalink) |
Tone.
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Hey, it's a car maintainence thread. The more questions are asked, the more people will know when some jerk tries to rip them off
Synthetic is a lot more expensive, but it's also a lot better at being oil. Regular oil has natural variances in purity, size of molecules, etc. You wouldn't think that'd be a big deal but when you're talking about chunks of metal less than a few thousanths of a milimeter apart, flying past each other six thousand or more times per minute, lubrication qualities become a pretty big deal. So yes, synthetic is much better than conventional oil. BUT: Do we really need it in daily driving cars. I think this is the point where Mr. SD and I will diverge in opinion, but I don't think so. Sure synthetic is a lot better at lubricating, but regular oil lubricates just fine. I'd compare it to replacing your lawn mower with a 5 foot wide professional ride-on mower. Sure the pro mower will bring more to the job, but it's not necessary. On a pure cost-benefit analysis, regular oil wins hands down. And, again using my honda as an example, I've got over a quarter million miles on the thing, and it's never seen a drop of synthetic in its life. All that said, and I know this doesn't apply to you Gilda, but it might for others - if you've been running your car on regular oil for a long time and then you switch to synthetic, you might discover that you have oil leaks. Buyer beware |
06-28-2006, 07:29 PM | #69 (permalink) |
Crazy
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I took my brand new truck to a quick lube place and watched (quite unsurprised) as the tech came into the waiting room to show me the "clogged up" air filter. I asked him if it was typical for an air filter to go bad in 6000 miles and he just shrugged. I then showed him the air flow indicator in the engine, had him put back the "clogged" filter and showed him that it was flowing with no resistance.
His comment after I totally destroyed him? "Well, it LOOKS dirty."
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It's a long way up when you're six feet under. |
06-29-2006, 02:13 PM | #71 (permalink) | |||
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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For a presentation on the difference between regular and synthetic oils, go to www.pennzoilplatinum.com Quote:
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06-29-2006, 03:28 PM | #72 (permalink) | ||
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Part of the reason we chose the car we did is the low mainenance--the car's computer says when to take it in for service, and the services are all included for the first three years, and it's not supposed to need anything but fluids, filters and tire rotations until 100,000 miles. By the way, why the higher numbers on the oil? I was told by the more mechanically inclined in my family to tell them when I took it in for the oil change to substitute 10w-30 for the recommended 5w-20 in the manual. The higher numbers are acceptable, so I did that, but I'm curious as to why? I could ask Sissy--dad taught her all this stuff when she was like 12, but why rely on family when you can ask some stranger on the internet? Quote:
Gilda The screwdriver is the one that looks like an ice-pick with an x on the end, right? I can hear it now. Gilda the mechanic they'll call me. Yeah, they'll say, Gilda's cool, she can explain the functional subtext of Dr. Seuss's The Sneeches and she knows which end of the spark plug to hit with the hammer. Ahhh, the wonders of being multi-talented. I'll be a guy magnet . . . oh, wait a minute. |
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06-29-2006, 05:15 PM | #74 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Thicker oils (10w40, 20w40) are much better at protecting engines over the long term and in hotter environments. The thicker oil means its viscosity will adhear better to the metal parts and stick more in the minute defection in the metals which provides more lubrication. Personally I stick to the heavier stuff. Then again I live in the Texas heat, with a truck with a large V8, and have over 140k miles. So the lighter oils simply wouldn't hold up. 5w20 for you sounds extremely lightweight. While it may be in your owners manual, it just seems to me unless your engine is powered by a lawnmower engine you'll want something thicker. At next oil change I'd go with the 10w30 or 40. 10 weight is good for cars and works well in cold weather. |
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06-29-2006, 05:32 PM | #75 (permalink) | |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
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Gilda |
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06-29-2006, 05:53 PM | #76 (permalink) | ||||
The sky calls to us ...
Super Moderator
Location: CT
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The other factor is that consumers are simultaneously extraordinarily gullible and extraordinarily cynical. If they go to a dealer that tells them a car can go 10,000 miles between oil changes because it's engineered better than the one sold down the street, they're not going to believe the guy down the street when he tells them that the guy with the 10k interval is lying, because not only is he asking the customer to believe ( the counterintuitive idea) that a company is willingly selling an inferior product and claiming it to be superior because of the inferior trait, but it appears the salesman is also admitting that his product needs more upkeep to work as well as the competition. Toyota had a werious sludge problem with their 3.0L engines because they gave in to pressure from competition to increase service intervals above what was safe. Quote:
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Another benefit: heavier oils designed for diesel engines (it'll say so on the bottle) have more durable additive packages that will scrub the engine more thoroughly and protect better. |
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06-29-2006, 06:23 PM | #77 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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I'm of the opinion now that synthetic oil is a marketing ploy. It fills the motor oil niche for people seeking the upscale purchase option. I don't see a practical justification for paying 5x the cost of regular oil for neglible (non-existent?) results. Your car is going to run fine using 10w40 for the life of the car.
When I was younger, I used synthetic oil and premium gas. I worked on my cars, washed and detailed them every few days, and used to argue to the death with my cynical dad ("oil is oil") over the necessity and superiority of synthetic oil. After I went through a few cars and found out they still run and stay reliable on ordinary 10w-40 and regular gas, I stopped spending more. On second thought--scratch all that. When I get my Porsche, the gas tank will be filled with premium gas, it will be waxed with the most expensive polymer sealants and carnuba waxes, and the crankcase will be filled to the brim with the most expensive synthetic blend on the market. |
06-29-2006, 08:49 PM | #78 (permalink) |
Adequate
Location: In my angry-dome.
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It is very different stuff. I think synthetic has been covered well here before, but the oil is much more durable. The additive package tends to be premium to last as long, and it's different because of the inherent characteristics of synth oil. The base oils don't need as many modifiers to maintain viscosity or assist in cleaning since the unmodified oil is superior in these regards. That means much less risk of sludging or reduced lubrication should you go too long or have a "temperature event."
If you run in weird climates - really hot, really cold, or back & forth, or need extended intervals, synth is generally better than the dino equivalents. (not to say there aren't excellent dinos and blends, it's just that they'll tend to fail first in the worst situations) If you're in severe circumstances and you don't or can't stop, synthetic will be your best bet. Each car and driver is different though, so it's still flying blind without at least initial analyses. That means for most people you're right. At 3-5000 mile blind changes, synthetic is mostly Alpo for the car.
__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
06-30-2006, 05:07 AM | #79 (permalink) | |
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06-30-2006, 06:39 AM | #80 (permalink) |
Adequate
Location: In my angry-dome.
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It's a rare car in good mechanical shape that limits change intervals due to metal particles. If the chunks are big enough to cause damage yet not be picked up by the filter then wrong filter. If there are so many that they're a problem on the first pass then goodbye engine. Metal points to other problems which destroy the oil. Iron or aluminum, or even bearing material are all normal to some degree and point to their own problems of contamination or breakin/abnormal wear. More of a warning sign than a problem in itself.
What generally happens at oil end-of-life is the oil goes out of grade, either thinning or thickening, it becomes unable to deal with the chemistry influences of fuel and water or other contaminants, and it stops protecting your engine. Somwhere along the line it fails and becomes part of the problem. How quickly this happens depends on the specific engine and condition combined with your driving patterns and habits. Some cars are unique and need an exceptional oil to even hit 3K safely. I agree that there's no guarantee besides fresh oil. Pushing changes out is either a risk done blind, or an extra cost to pay for analysis. I've seen dino's & blends go past 7K, and synth beyond 12K all backed by oil analyses. (my own results and far from extraordinary) So in some sense I think we agree. If your warranty doesn't require it, you aren't running harsh conditions where the improved cold cranking and flash points help, or extending the interval isn't useful, and you don't need a new hobby, dino at 3K is simplicity. I stick to it myself unless I know the engine can go longer. Hey, isn't there an oil thread around here so we can leave Gilda alone?
__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195 |
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jiffy, lube, offs, rip, scam |
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