Another School bans a play because three people didnt like it - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

thesupermikey · 02-11-2006, 01:17 PM

linky

I think we need to race money to send copies of the Crucible to every
student at this highschool, who is with me!

Most interesting is the comment from the student who said "We can't do
anything about it. We just have to obey." Its almost as if its Nazi
Germany...or Now, with you know...that fuck racist bush running the
country.

Quote:

February 11, 2006
In Small Town, 'Grease' Ignites a Culture War
By DIANA JEAN SCHEMO

FULTON, Mo. — When Wendy DeVore, the drama teacher at Fulton High
here, staged the musical "Grease," about high school students in the
1950's, she carefully changed the script to avoid causing offense in
this small town.

She softened the language, substituting slang for profanity in places.
Instead of smoking "weed," the teenagers duck out for a cigarette. She
rated the production PG-13, advising parents it was not suitable for
small children.

But a month after the performances in November, three letters arrived
on the desk of Mark Enderle, Fulton's superintenden
t of schools. Although the letters did not say so, the three writers
were members of a small group linked by e-mail, all members of the
same congregation, Callaway Christian Church.

Each criticized the show, complaining that scenes of drinking, smoking
and a couple kissing went too far, and glorified conduct that the
community tries to discourage. One letter, from someone who had not
seen the show but only heard about it, criticized "immoral behavior
veiled behind the excuse of acting out a play."

Dr. Enderle watched a video of the play, ultimately agreeing that
"Grease" was unsuitable for the high school, despite his having
approved it beforehand, without looking at the script. Hoping to avoid
similar complaints in the future, he decided to ban the scheduled
spring play, "The Crucible" by Arthur Miller.

"That was me in my worst Joe McCarthy moment, to some," Dr. Enderle said.

He called "The Crucible" "a fine play," but said he dropped it to keep
the school from being "mired in controversy" all spring.

To many, the term "culture war" evokes national battles over new
frontiers in taste and decency, over violence in video games, or
profanity in music or on television. But such battles are also fought
in small corners of the country like Fulton, a conservative town of
about 10,000, where it can take only a few objections about library
books or high school plays to shift quietly the cultural borderlines
of an entire community.

The complaints here, which were never debated in a public forum, have
spread a sense of uncertainty about the shifting terrain as parents,
teachers and students have struggled to understand what happened.
Among teenagers who were once thrilled to have worked on the
production, "Grease" became "the play they'd rather not talk about,"
said Teri Arms, their principal, who had also approved the play before
it was presented.

"Grease" and "The Crucible" are hardly unfamiliar; they are standard
fare on the high school drama circuit, the
second-most-frequently-performed musical and drama on school stages,
according to the Educational Theater Association, a nonprofit group.
The most performed now are "Seussical" and "A Midsummer Night's
Dream."

But challenges to longstanding literary or artistic works are not
unusual, said Deborah Caldwell-Stone, deputy director of the American
Library Association's office of intellectual freedom. Complaints
generally are growing; in 2004, the last year for which figures are
available, 547 books came under fire, an increase of nearly 20 percent
over 2003, when 458 books were challenged.

"That a literary work is a classic does not protect it from being
challenged, or even removed from a particular community," Ms.
Caldwell-Stone said. Fulton, about 90 miles west of St. Louis, is best
known as the home of Westminster College, where Winston Churchill gave
his Iron Curtain speech in 1946. Presidents since Harry S. Truman have
spoken in Fulton, lending the town a more cosmopolitan image.

Joseph Potter, an assistant professor of performing arts at William
Woods University here, has staged dozens of shows for the community,
including "Grease," and said he had never received a complaint. But
politically and socially, Mr. Potter said, the town's core is
conservative.

The three complaints about "Grease" reached Dr. Enderle within the same week.

Mark Miller, a 26-year-old graduate student, said he was moved to
complain after getting an e-mail message about the show from Terra
Guittar, a member of his church. Her description of the pajama party
scene offended him, he wrote, adding that one character should have
worn a more modest nightgown. Mr. Miller did not see the play.

"It makes sense that you're not going to offend anyone by being on the
conservative side, especially when you're dealing with students, who
don't have the same power as a principal or a theater director," he
said.

A tape of the dress rehearsal showed that while most of the girls in
the scene wore pajamas or a granny gown, Rizzo, the play's bad girl,
wore just a pajama top. After the other girls fell asleep, Rizzo
slipped her jeans on to sneak out for a date.

Ms. Guittar was so outraged by the drinking and kissing onstage that
she walked out on the performance. She said she was not trying to
inhibit artistic creativity. "It was strictly a moral issue," she
said. "They're under 18. They're not in Hollywood."

But other parents were happy with the play. Mimi Curtis, whose son
John played the lead, said the principal and drama teacher went out of
their way to respect parents' wishes, changing the script in response
to her own objections to profanity.

Ms. Curtis, who ran a concession stand during the play, saw all four
performances.

"I didn't view it as raunchy," she said, adding that children who
watch television are "hearing worse."

Dr. Enderle said he did not base his decision to cancel "The
Crucible," which was first reported by The Fulton Sun, a daily, just
on the three complaints and the video. He also asked 10 people he knew
whether the play crossed a line. All but one, he recalled, said yes.

"To me, it's entirely a preventative maintenance issue," Dr. Enderle
explained. "I can't do anything about what's already happened, but do
I want to spend the spring saying, 'Yeah, we crossed the line again'?"

Nevertheless, the superintendent said he was "not 100 percent
comfortable" with having canceled "The Crucible."

The absence of public debate meant that students heard of the
cancellation as a fait accompli from their principal, Ms. Arms, and
Ms. DeVore, the drama teacher. Others learned "The Crucible" was off
limits through an internal school district newsletter. In it, Dr.
Enderle said he dropped the play after seeing this summary on the Web:
"17th century Salem woman accuses an ex-lover's wife of witchery in an
adaptation of the Arthur Miller play."

Mr. Miller wrote "The Crucible" in the 1950's, in response to the
witch hunt of his own day, when Congress held hearings to purge
Hollywood of suspected Communists, pressuring witnesses to expose
others to prove their innocence. The affair is not acted out in the
play, which focuses on how hysteria and fear devoured Salem, despite
the lack of evidence.

Dr. Enderle said Fulton High's students had largely accepted his
decision and moved on. They are now rehearsing "A Midsummer Night's
Dream" as their spring drama.

But in interviews here, students, who had already begun practicing for
auditions of "The Crucible," expressed frustration and resignation,
along with an overriding sense that there was no use fighting City
Hall.

"It's over," said Emily Swenson, 15, after auditioning for "A
Midsummer Night's Dream." "We can't do anything about it. We just have
to obey."

Both the students and Ms. DeVore seemed unsure of why "The Crucible,"
which students study in 11th grade, was unacceptable.

Jarryd Lapp, a junior who was a light technician on "Grease," said he
was disappointed that "The Crucible" was canceled. But he had a
theory. "The show itself is graphic," he said. "People get hung;
there's death in it. It's not appropriate."

Ms. DeVore believes it was canceled because it portrays the Salem
witch trials, "a time in history that makes Christians look bad."

"In a Bible Belt community," she added, "it makes people nervous."

The teacher and her students are now ruling out future productions
they once considered for their entertainment value alone, like "Little
Shop of Horrors," a musical that features a cannibalistic plant, which
they had discussed doing next fall.

Torii Davis, a junior, said that in her psychology class earlier that
day, most students predicted that "Little Shop of Horrors" would never
pass the test.

"Audrey works in a flower shop," Ms. Davis said. "She has a boyfriend
who beats her. That could be controversial."

Ms. DeVore went down a list of the most commonly performed musicals
and dramas on high school stages, and ticked off the potentially
offensive aspects. " 'Bye Bye Birdie' has smoking and drinking.
'Oklahoma,' there's a scene where she's almost raped. 'Diary of Anne
Frank,' would you take a 6-year-old?" the drama teacher asked.

"How am I supposed to know what's appropriate when I don't have any
written guidelines, and it seems that what was appropriate yesterday
isn't appropriate today?" Ms. DeVore asked. The teacher said she had
been warned that because of the controversy, the school board might
not renew her contract for next year.

For the moment, Dr. Enderle acknowledged, the controversy has shrunk
the boundaries of what is acceptable for the community. He added that
"A Midsummer Night's Dream" was "not a totally vanilla play."

But asked if the high school might put on another Shakespeare classic
about young people in love, "Romeo and Juliet," he hesitated.

"Given the historical context of the play," the superintendent said,
"it would be difficult to say that's something we would not perform."

snowy · 02-11-2006, 01:23 PM

What I find interesting is that 1) there was no public debate regarding this, and 2) the superintendent was spineless enough to listen to ONLY three people, including AT LEAST one who hadn't seen the show.

This superintendent's an idiot.

docbungle · 02-11-2006, 01:40 PM

I don't find this very disturbing at all. It is a school, and they decided to ban a play to avoid controversy. How negatively will this effect anyone's lives? Probably not very, unless they blow it out of proportion, which it appears is already the case. We all know how easy it is for schools to get in to trouble nowadays for the smallest little thing.

If the government banned the play from being performed ever again in the theater, that would be one thing - but a school making it's own decision? That's another thing entirely. The fact that this is big news is what I find somewhat disturbing.

And, um, I fail to find the relevance of, "that fuck Bush" running the country. What in God's name are you talking about? And Nazi Germany? Are we on the same planet?

The_Jazz · 02-11-2006, 01:46 PM

Personally, I think that story here is that the school is caving in to pressure from a small, vocal minority. Any interesting play is going to have something slightly controversial. That's what makes it interesting.

Siege · 02-11-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

If the government banned the play from being performed ever again in the theater, that would be one thing - but a school making it's own decision? That's another thing entirely. The fact that this is big news is what I find somewhat disturbing.

True. Those kids can always go rent Grease, or see a non school production of it.

Or, if they're only interested in the minor drinking/smoking/kissing parts, they can get something much more interesting from their local video store.

maleficent · 02-11-2006, 01:58 PM

My high school put on grease... i think my junior year - oh man - did we ever get in trouble -- the kid who played the part of "rump" actually did moon during the curtain calls... Cuz we sorta dared him to... I think everyone associated with the show (I was the costume and makeup mistress) got an in school suspension because of it...

The only thing that I remember we HAD to change in the entire play (and this was a very uptight, very preppy community in Connecticut) was a few words in the song Greased Lightening...

silly silly people...

stevie667 · 02-11-2006, 02:27 PM

Another outstanding sucess for the idiot brigade.

Psycho Dad · 02-11-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

How negatively will this effect anyone's lives?

Other than the message that it is OK for many to bow to three people to avoid a controversy?

pan6467 · 02-11-2006, 02:46 PM

What I want to know is where were the parents and the teachers who used to fight to avoid things being banned at their schools.

When I was a kid I remember parents wanting to ban things at our school, like Jr. High dances, the Jukebox an 8th grade fudraiser paid for at the Jr. Hi, a few books and so on. And every time someone tried to ban ANYTHING resistance was met by the teachers, a nice cross section of parents and students.

It got to the point people gave up trying to ban things because the BOE meetings would always pack with people ready to fight for freedom.

Where is that now? Well, both parents have to work because the economy is booming, teachers are scared for their jobs, school boards are scared they may not get that next lkevy through and the Religious Neo Con Right have people scared to speak out.

For the love of God our greatest strength is our freedoms and we are fucking giving them away and have people who believe it's ok, because they are so blind to the Right and their irrational hatred of the Dems.

What's sad, there are a lot of people, who speak out against gun registration or even so much as a waiting period probably support the bannings of IDEAS and SPEECH. Since when is one right more valuable and worth defending more than any other?

How pathetically sad, this nation is fastly becoming a neo-facist, dictatorship.

thesupermikey · 02-11-2006, 03:35 PM

docbungle - students are being thought that they ought to submit to authority, to not question the motives of the leaders.

By refusing to engage in a dialog, one is submitting to a totalitarian system. This situation is teaching kids that they ought to bow to the pressure of a few, whom calm to speak for the whole. Grease was advertised as not being for children, would guess the same would be true for The Crucible. Its about teaching people about the past

its a curious world where avoiding complainers is the goal. And where
do people who have only heard about something get to have their opinions
registered as legitimate? I suppose that in these sorts of communities
the narrowest-minded get to set the agenda, so everything has to be
pitched down to their comfort level.

And what are the lessons that the kids are learning? Are they actually
better off if the community pretends that there is no smoking, drinking,
kissing, discontent, and the like?

Trisk · 02-11-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

I don't find this very disturbing at all. It is a school, and they decided to ban a play to avoid controversy. How negatively will this effect anyone's lives? Probably not very, unless they blow it out of proportion, which it appears is already the case. We all know how easy it is for schools to get in to trouble nowadays for the smallest little thing.

If the government banned the play from being performed ever again in the theater, that would be one thing - but a school making it's own decision? That's another thing entirely. The fact that this is big news is what I find somewhat disturbing.

And, um, I fail to find the relevance of, "that fuck Bush" running the country. What in God's name are you talking about? And Nazi Germany? Are we on the same planet?

The problem with this is that in small religious communities, censorship of this sort is a growing occurance. While it may not sound that bad when we're talking about one play, the things that the play was banned for are rediculous, and they also mentioned the burning/banning of hundreds of books here.
All this does is puts shades on the eyes of children who are growing up in a world that is very different than what they are seeing. If they go off to college or decide to move in the future for some sort of job opportunity, many of them are going to go into a culture shock and get burned pretty badly. These are the types of teenagers that end up meeting with strangers from the internet and getting raped/killed. These are the types of teenagers that get into the most trouble in the stupidest ways.

While it may not be the government that is banning these things, these people, raised in a completely skewed and ignorant view of what the real world is like, are the people voting to choose our government officials. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really want people who aren't even ALLOWED by the community to read about different viewpoints or different lifestyles to be choosing my leaders.

Um...that said, don't these people have TVs? How can people sit there, straight-faced, banning shows like Grease at school, when The O.C. is one of the most watched television shows right now? A show where 15 year old girls are drinking, smoking pot, manipulating people, and urging older boys to have sex with her despite their doubts about the age difference.

I agree with you that the original poster was completely off the mark in saying things like "that fuck Bush" and "Nazi Germany".
Hello people, Nazi Germany was not the only place in history with extreme censorship. Why does everyone refer back to that? Why not, "Communist Russia" or "China right now" or even just saying "It's almost as if these communities are under totalitarian rule"?
And remarks like that about "that fuck Bush" really have no place in this post. That statement weakens the point of your post incredibely. Whatever your opinions may be about Bush, he has nothing to do with this group of people. If anything, just criticize religious people, because that's what makes most of them do these things you don't like. Bush is religious. These people are religious. Other than that, there is no connection.

Grasshopper Green · 02-11-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

How negatively will this effect anyone's lives?

Having participated in theater when I was in high school, I can tell you this will affect a lot of people negatively. Firstly, the students who were in the play and put in long hours and much effort into preparing for it. Secondly, the teacher that directed it and already adjusted the script to the satisfaction of the parents who had children in the play...I mean really, are the kids supposed to duck out for a contraband bag of potato chips? And thirdly, the students who worked on the sets, costumes, and lighting...all their work for nothing. And as has already been stated...showing these kids that all their work means nothing because three people..one of whom didn't even SEE the play, object to it. I remember putting on shows with such racy subject matter as teen drinking, child abuse, adultery, and some mild swearing, and as far as I know, no one objected. Thank god this didn't happen to me, I'd have been supremely pissed off.

blade02 · 02-11-2006, 05:27 PM

Maybe my church is different, but a few years it ago it put on Grease as its dinner theater show. Plus it was in north Alabama in a town that has a street with atleast 8 BIG churches (atleast 3 or 4 buildings) on a 10 mile long road, and even more smaller churches, it averages more than 1 church per mile. So if my town can get away with a church doing the play, Im not sure why anywhere else couldn't.

flat5 · 02-11-2006, 05:33 PM

quote
"How am I supposed to know what's appropriate when I don't have any
written guidelines, and it seems that what was appropriate yesterday
isn't appropriate today?" Ms. DeVore asked. The teacher said she had
been warned that because of the controversy, the school board might
not renew her contract for next year.
unquote

This part is equally upsetting.

rhaevyn · 02-11-2006, 06:18 PM

There will always be something about a play/musical that someone won't agree with or will take offense to. Controversial issues in shows definitely make them more interesting but sadly, some people are too closed-minded to let other people enjoy them.

My senior year of high school, I was in a one-act play that was entirely a dream sequence. I played a mother who was attempting to seduce her son.

biznatch · 02-11-2006, 06:27 PM

How sickening. It's a god damned(can I say that, or will they ban it off the internet because kids have access to it?) high school! Everyone knows about sex. Probably close to half of the kids have tried weed...
the only reason the kids aren't allright is because you might not educate them well..worry about what's taught in class, maybe. But art? don't make no sense to me.

docbungle · 02-11-2006, 09:26 PM

Quote:

docbungle - students are being thought that they ought to submit to authority, to not question the motives of the leaders.

Well, it's high school. That sounds about right to me.

Quote:

By refusing to engage in a dialog, one is submitting to a totalitarian system. This situation is teaching kids that they ought to bow to the pressure of a few, whom calm to speak for the whole.

I assume you meant "claim" to speak for the whole? Regardless, I think you're selling the students short to assume they are "learning" how to behave based on the politics behind what happened to their high school play. We were not all so simple when we were kids, and I would assume the same for these youngsters. And high school does seem a little totalitarian, but then it always has: it's high school.

Quote:

its a curious world where avoiding complainers is the goal. And where
do people who have only heard about something get to have their opinions
registered as legitimate? I suppose that in these sorts of communities
the narrowest-minded get to set the agenda, so everything has to be
pitched down to their comfort level.

Sounds like every day politics.

Quote:

And what are the lessons that the kids are learning? Are they actually
better off if the community pretends that there is no smoking, drinking,
kissing, discontent, and the like?

If the biggest lesson they get from school is from a play (or lack thereof) then there is indeed a problem.

Gilda · 02-11-2006, 10:09 PM

I've come to the conclusion that it isn't about moral objections to the content, but about excercising power.

If you object to the content of a play don't go. If you don't want your children exposed to that content, don't let them participate. Protecting yourself from such problems isn't in the least bit difficult.

No it's about excercising your self-appointed moral authority over others, about forcing your moral worldview on others who may not share it.

And, ah, irony, don't you just love it. They cancel The Crucible and then cite "historical context" as a reason for not doing the same with Romeo and Juliet.

Gilda

docbungle · 02-11-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

No it's about excercising your self-appointed moral authority over others, about forcing your moral worldview on others who may not share it.

Strangely, the above statement actually supports both sides of this argument.

Gilda · 02-11-2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

Strangely, the above statement actually supports both sides of this argument.

Nope. Allowing the play to be performed doesn't force anything on anyone. Nobody is forced to watch the play or perform in it if they find it objectionable. Banning the play prevents everyone who would have wanted to see from seeing it.

Only in the second scenario is anyone forced to abide by another's moral code.

Gilda

analog · 02-12-2006, 02:25 AM

HOLY SHIT! Teenagers ACTING OUT smoking?!?! KISSING?!?!

It's fucking sodom and gomorrah on that stage!!!!

What a load of bullshit.

pan6467 · 02-12-2006, 04:43 AM

What's ironic is it is usually the religious right that wants things banned, say this play, Howard Stern, etc. and yet, the GOP and the right are supposedly the big supporters for free enterprise and allowing the marketplace to dictate what should be available.

Yet, it always boils down to they want to allow to be available, to Hell with free market or giving the choice to the people, it is dictated to them.

What's sad is noone publicly, whether it is schools or businesses can afford financially to stand up to the few who want to dictate.

highthief · 02-12-2006, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Nope. Allowing the play to be performed doesn't force anything on anyone. Nobody is forced to watch the play or perform in it if they find it objectionable. Banning the play prevents everyone who would have wanted to see from seeing it.

Only in the second scenario is anyone forced to abide by another's moral code.

Gilda

Bingo. The essence of the matter captured in a couple of sentences.

alansmithee · 02-12-2006, 06:47 AM

Apparently, the minority should only be listened to if they are supporting a liberal-approved cause.

This is 100% identical to the school prayer issue. However, because that's about dreaded CHRISTIANITY, it's totally ok for one wackjob to control what people do.

The hypocrisy on topics like this is really personally sickening to me.

And also, I didn't see where in the story "that fuck racist bush" was mentioned anywhere. Apparently the OP has some inside information about the president spending time shutting down highschool plays.

pan6467 · 02-12-2006, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Apparently, the minority should only be listened to if they are supporting a liberal-approved cause.

This is 100% identical to the school prayer issue. However, because that's about dreaded CHRISTIANITY, it's totally ok for one wackjob to control what people do.

The hypocrisy on topics like this is really personally sickening to me.

And also, I didn't see where in the story "that fuck racist bush" was mentioned anywhere. Apparently the OP has some inside information about the president spending time shutting down highschool plays.

I have no problem with school prayer, in fact kids should be spiritual/religious, it truly helps.

I do however have an issue with what God the school tells kids to pray to and that unfortunately is what happens when you allow school prayer. As is apparent by your own post.

Grasshopper Green · 02-12-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

HOLY SHIT! Teenagers ACTING OUT smoking?!?! KISSING?!?!

It's fucking sodom and gomorrah on that stage!!!!

What a load of bullshit.

Thanks, I needed a chuckle this morning

Poppinjay · 02-12-2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Apparently, the minority should only be listened to if they are supporting a liberal-approved cause.

This is 100% identical to the school prayer issue. However, because that's about dreaded CHRISTIANITY, it's totally ok for one wackjob to control what people do.

The hypocrisy on topics like this is really personally sickening to me.

And also, I didn't see where in the story "that fuck racist bush" was mentioned anywhere. Apparently the OP has some inside information about the president spending time shutting down highschool plays.

A suggestion, dump the hyperbole and give us an honest opinion of this topic.

I'll agree that Bush has nothing to do with this. These kinds of people have been around forever. Ever since books came around, somebody has been burning them.

I went to a rural southern public high school that still has bible classes to this day, and we performed all manner of sinful plays, Plaza Suite, Aresenic and Old Lace...

I think this is a very bad trend. It's much more than just a school deciding to ban a couple plays, in the case of the Crucible, it's denying students an education in a chapter of our nation's in history - in which religious zealots ran wild and murdered on the testimony of bratty girls. Banning plays tells them that the expressions and speech within the plays are evil.

meembo · 02-12-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

I don't find this very disturbing at all. It is a school, and they decided to ban a play to avoid controversy. How negatively will this effect anyone's lives? Probably not very, unless they blow it out of proportion, which it appears is already the case. We all know how easy it is for schools to get in to trouble nowadays for the smallest little thing.

If the government banned the play from being performed ever again in the theater, that would be one thing - but a school making it's own decision? That's another thing entirely. The fact that this is big news is what I find somewhat disturbing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

If the biggest lesson they get from school is from a play (or lack thereof) then there is indeed a problem.

Here's the lesson they received, in their own words:

"But in interviews here, students, who had already begun practicing for auditions of "The Crucible," expressed frustration and resignation, along with an overriding sense that there was no use fighting City Hall.

"It's over," said Emily Swenson, 15, after auditioning for "A Midsummer Night's Dream." "We can't do anything about it. We just have to obey."

Both the students and Ms. DeVore seemed unsure of why "The Crucible," which students study in 11th grade, was unacceptable."

If just three people from one organization can effectively remove provocative and widely acclaimed literature like The Crucible from a public high school WITH NO PUBLIC DEBATE OR VOTE, then artistic and thoughtful young adults are denied the very best of materials that stimulate them and encourage their learning. The works were censored in this town without soliciting input from the people who were obviously committed to bringing these performing arts to the stage -- Why? What was the public good? Why is ducking controversy via censorship a good thing? It's cowardly, personally and intellectually and politically. This isn't about conservatism or Christianity either -- it's about officials using authority inappropriately to dictate social standards. If the standard in this town is putting on a play that no more than two people will find inappropriate, there clearly won't be any more plays in Fulton.

The superintendent himself said he was being compared to Joe McCarthy, the very model of small-minded reactionary political bullies. That comparison isn't fair to McCarthy, who was at least more straightforward and public about what he was doing. Public school superintendents are government officials, BTW, and in this case the superintendent made a sweeping decision to kill two productions without seeing more than a dress rehearsal of one of them. In that case, the script was modified to accomodate the objections that were brought to the production crew of the play -- a very fair concession to public concern in the community. He said he asked ten people he knew about The Crucible, but that selective group of opinions is no substitute for an open forum.

Does anyone else see the irony of preventing The Crucible from getting to the stage? From the article -- "The play ... focuses on how hysteria and fear devoured Salem, despite the lack of evidence."

Don't like The Crucible, or Arthur Miller, or anything else provocative in public? Say so, in a public forum -- listen and respect what your neighbors have to say -- vote, if possible -- and then, let your neighbors choose for themselves what to read or see on a stage.

Xell101 · 02-12-2006, 09:40 AM

Go go gadget, accrued sensibilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBungle

I don't find this very disturbing at all. How negatively will this effect anyone's lives?

It's not that this specific instance is terribly short changing the students, cause it isn't. It's indicative of a general trend regarding preferance being placed on appeasement in lieu of retainment of integrity, simply becuase it's easier. The problem lay in this being detrimental to the system. That which is detrimental to the system is slowly becoming it's norm.

docbungle · 02-12-2006, 12:17 PM

Quote:

To many, the term "culture war" evokes national battles over new
frontiers in taste and decency, over violence in video games, or
profanity in music or on television. But such battles are also fought
in small corners of the country like Fulton, a conservative town of
about 10,000, where it can take only a few objections about library
books or high school plays to shift quietly the cultural borderlines
of an entire community.

This pretty much sizes it up for me. It's all about perspective. In such a tiny town, three letters might mean quite a bit. Who knows?

After graduating from high-school, all these people that are so saddened by this will realize than out here in the real world, things don't work quite like they do in high-school. You can participate in just about anything you want.

Trisk · 02-12-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

What's ironic is it is usually the religious right that wants things banned, say this play, Howard Stern, etc. and yet, the GOP and the right are supposedly the big supporters for free enterprise and allowing the marketplace to dictate what should be available.

Yet, it always boils down to they want to allow to be available, to Hell with free market or giving the choice to the people, it is dictated to them.

I don't think it's quite fair to equate the religious right with the entire GOP and their supporters. A lot of people, myself included, find it extremely unfortunate that voting for an economic system we agree with means voting with a religious right. But when there are only two extremist parties that really have a chance at winning, it's kind of hard to get what you want.
Just wanted to point out that all republicans aren't evil hypocrits.

xepherys · 02-12-2006, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

This pretty much sizes it up for me. It's all about perspective. In such a tiny town, three letters might mean quite a bit. Who knows?

It might "mean quite a bit", but 3 out of 10,000 surely does not consitute a majority by any means. Public schools are a segment of government, and are required to abide by the same regualtions that other public institutions are. People vote for millage (sp?) and vote for officials, but those officials also have regulations, generally, to abide by. While it would appear that this small town may just need to vote in better representatives, it still stands to reason that this is a bad trend.

alansmithee · 02-12-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

A suggestion, dump the hyperbole and give us an honest opinion of this topic.

I'll agree that Bush has nothing to do with this. These kinds of people have been around forever. Ever since books came around, somebody has been burning them.

I went to a rural southern public high school that still has bible classes to this day, and we performed all manner of sinful plays, Plaza Suite, Aresenic and Old Lace...

I think this is a very bad trend. It's much more than just a school deciding to ban a couple plays, in the case of the Crucible, it's denying students an education in a chapter of our nation's in history - in which religious zealots ran wild and murdered on the testimony of bratty girls. Banning plays tells them that the expressions and speech within the plays are evil.

A suggestion-dump the hypocrisy and maybe think with logic instead of party affiliation.

You think this is a bad trend. Many people think that students not being allowed to organize prayer before football games is a bad thing. Two sides of the same coin-tyranny of the minority. It just happens that these people have views that you disagree with. So they are wrong in your eyes.

alansmithee · 02-12-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I have no problem with school prayer, in fact kids should be spiritual/religious, it truly helps.

I do however have an issue with what God the school tells kids to pray to and that unfortunately is what happens when you allow school prayer. As is apparent by your own post.

But there are many instances where students wanted to organize their own prayer, but one wackjob complains and the students aren't allowed. I could just as easily say that I have no issue with students performing immoral plays, but I have an issue with students living immorally which is what happens when you allow immoral plays.

Again, instead of just admitting the hypocrisy, you would prefer to try to draw a false conclusion. More power to you.

Gilda · 02-12-2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

But there are many instances where students wanted to organize their own prayer, but one wackjob complains and the students aren't allowed. I could just as easily say that I have no issue with students performing immoral plays, but I have an issue with students living immorally which is what happens when you allow immoral plays.

Again, instead of just admitting the hypocrisy, you would prefer to try to draw a false conclusion. More power to you.

Can you cite cases of students not being allowed to pray before a football game? Note that not being allowed to read a prayer over the public address system isn't the same thing as not being allowed to pray or even being allowed to pray together. It's forcing the participation in the prayer by others by reading it over the PA system that was ruled unconstitutional.

Preventing school-sponsored prayer and censorship of school sponsored plays is a consistent position. They're both a defense of freedom from the imposition of other's moral and religious beliefs. Whether than imposition is by the minority or majority is irrelevant.

Gilda

alansmithee · 02-12-2006, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Can you cite cases of students not being allowed to pray before a football game? Note that not being allowed to read a prayer over the public address system isn't the same thing as not being allowed to pray or even being allowed to pray together. It's forcing the participation in the prayer by others by reading it over the PA system that was ruled unconstitutional.

How is anyone being forced? If they don't like it, they can ignore it or plug their ears.

Quote:

Preventing school-sponsored prayer and censorship of school sponsored plays is a consistent position. They're both a defense of freedom from the imposition of other's moral and religious beliefs. Whether than imposition is by the minority or majority is irrelevant.

Gilda

Wrong. Both are the imposition of one group's moral code on others that may or may not agree with it. Just because you decide to label your position a "defense of freedom" instead of the moralizing it is doesn't make it any more valid. Repetition does not make truth.

tspikes51 · 02-13-2006, 12:34 AM

Except for there only being three bitchers here, I don't see a problem with it. If a larger majority of the community were in arms about it, I'd see less of a problem, but I guess this was not the case.

Morality will always exist, and disagreement about it will always come with it. I think that the problem we're having with it today is that we're having trouble identifying the majority, or that the majority is apathetic.

Gilda · 02-13-2006, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

Wrong. Both are the imposition of one group's moral code on others that may or may not agree with it.

In other words, no, you can't find an example of of kids preventing from praying before a game.

Censoring a play is imposing one's moral code on others because it's forcing others, everyone who would like to participate in or view the play, to abide by your code. Reading a prayer over the PA system is imposing one's moral code on others by requiring their participation in a religious ceremony, which, when state-sponsored, is unconstitutional. Preventing this while still allowing students to pray on their own is a defense of first amendment rights on both ends. It allows freedom of religion while not allowing the imposition of one's religious beliefs on others.

Quote:

Just because you decide to label your position a "defense of freedom" instead of the moralizing it is doesn't make it any more valid. Repetition does not make truth.

Nope. Truth makes truth. My position is consistent for the reasons given.

Gilda

pan6467 · 02-13-2006, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trisk

I don't think it's quite fair to equate the religious right with the entire GOP and their supporters. A lot of people, myself included, find it extremely unfortunate that voting for an economic system we agree with means voting with a religious right. But when there are only two extremist parties that really have a chance at winning, it's kind of hard to get what you want.
Just wanted to point out that all republicans aren't evil hypocrits.

I know that's very true, the sad thing is the politicians don't stand up to them.

It's the same with Dems, not all Dems are anti-gun, pro-choice, environmentalists. But enough are so that the rest are stereotyped and thrown into that grouping.

Poppinjay · 02-13-2006, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

A suggestion-dump the hypocrisy and maybe think with logic instead of party affiliation.

You think this is a bad trend. Many people think that students not being allowed to organize prayer before football games is a bad thing. Two sides of the same coin-tyranny of the minority. It just happens that these people have views that you disagree with. So they are wrong in your eyes.

Point out where I said anything like this.

I was on the football team in high school. We prayed before every game.

You are taking arguments and re-wording them into entirely different scenarios which have nothing to do with this one. And you do it because you assume certain posters march lock step in an ideology. That is small and petty thinking.

02-11-2006, 01:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	What I find interesting is that 1) there was no public debate regarding this, and 2) the superintendent was spineless enough to listen to ONLY three people, including AT LEAST one who hadn't seen the show. This superintendent's an idiot. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

02-11-2006, 01:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	I don't find this very disturbing at all. It is a school, and they decided to ban a play to avoid controversy. How negatively will this effect anyone's lives? Probably not very, unless they blow it out of proportion, which it appears is already the case. We all know how easy it is for schools to get in to trouble nowadays for the smallest little thing. If the government banned the play from being performed ever again in the theater, that would be one thing - but a school making it's own decision? That's another thing entirely. The fact that this is big news is what I find somewhat disturbing. And, um, I fail to find the relevance of, "that fuck Bush" running the country. What in God's name are you talking about? And Nazi Germany? Are we on the same planet? __________________ Bad Luck City Last edited by docbungle; 02-11-2006 at 01:45 PM..

02-11-2006, 01:58 PM	#6 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	My high school put on grease... i think my junior year - oh man - did we ever get in trouble -- the kid who played the part of "rump" actually did moon during the curtain calls... Cuz we sorta dared him to... I think everyone associated with the show (I was the costume and makeup mistress) got an in school suspension because of it... The only thing that I remember we HAD to change in the entire play (and this was a very uptight, very preppy community in Connecticut) was a few words in the song Greased Lightening... silly silly people... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

02-11-2006, 02:27 PM	#7 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	Another outstanding sucess for the idiot brigade. __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

02-11-2006, 02:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	What I want to know is where were the parents and the teachers who used to fight to avoid things being banned at their schools. When I was a kid I remember parents wanting to ban things at our school, like Jr. High dances, the Jukebox an 8th grade fudraiser paid for at the Jr. Hi, a few books and so on. And every time someone tried to ban ANYTHING resistance was met by the teachers, a nice cross section of parents and students. It got to the point people gave up trying to ban things because the BOE meetings would always pack with people ready to fight for freedom. Where is that now? Well, both parents have to work because the economy is booming, teachers are scared for their jobs, school boards are scared they may not get that next lkevy through and the Religious Neo Con Right have people scared to speak out. For the love of God our greatest strength is our freedoms and we are fucking giving them away and have people who believe it's ok, because they are so blind to the Right and their irrational hatred of the Dems. What's sad, there are a lot of people, who speak out against gun registration or even so much as a waiting period probably support the bannings of IDEAS and SPEECH. Since when is one right more valuable and worth defending more than any other? How pathetically sad, this nation is fastly becoming a neo-facist, dictatorship. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

02-11-2006, 01:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Personally, I think that story here is that the school is caving in to pressure from a small, vocal minority. Any interesting play is going to have something slightly controversial. That's what makes it interesting.

02-11-2006, 03:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
thesupermikey I got blisters on me fingers!!! Location: In my stressless expectation free zone.	docbungle - students are being thought that they ought to submit to authority, to not question the motives of the leaders. By refusing to engage in a dialog, one is submitting to a totalitarian system. This situation is teaching kids that they ought to bow to the pressure of a few, whom calm to speak for the whole. Grease was advertised as not being for children, would guess the same would be true for The Crucible. Its about teaching people about the past its a curious world where avoiding complainers is the goal. And where do people who have only heard about something get to have their opinions registered as legitimate? I suppose that in these sorts of communities the narrowest-minded get to set the agenda, so everything has to be pitched down to their comfort level. And what are the lessons that the kids are learning? Are they actually better off if the community pretends that there is no smoking, drinking, kissing, discontent, and the like? __________________ If you are not outraged than you are not paying attention! "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert

02-11-2006, 05:27 PM	#13 (permalink)
blade02 Insane	Maybe my church is different, but a few years it ago it put on Grease as its dinner theater show. Plus it was in north Alabama in a town that has a street with atleast 8 BIG churches (atleast 3 or 4 buildings) on a 10 mile long road, and even more smaller churches, it averages more than 1 church per mile. So if my town can get away with a church doing the play, Im not sure why anywhere else couldn't.

02-11-2006, 05:33 PM	#14 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	quote "How am I supposed to know what's appropriate when I don't have any written guidelines, and it seems that what was appropriate yesterday isn't appropriate today?" Ms. DeVore asked. The teacher said she had been warned that because of the controversy, the school board might not renew her contract for next year. unquote This part is equally upsetting.

02-11-2006, 06:18 PM	#15 (permalink)
rhaevyn Insane Location: Pittsburgh, PA	There will always be something about a play/musical that someone won't agree with or will take offense to. Controversial issues in shows definitely make them more interesting but sadly, some people are too closed-minded to let other people enjoy them. My senior year of high school, I was in a one-act play that was entirely a dream sequence. I played a mother who was attempting to seduce her son. __________________ ~Alex~ You've come far, and though you're far from the end, you don't mind where you are, 'cause you know where you've been.

02-11-2006, 06:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	How sickening. It's a god damned(can I say that, or will they ban it off the internet because kids have access to it?) high school! Everyone knows about sex. Probably close to half of the kids have tried weed... the only reason the kids aren't allright is because you might not educate them well..worry about what's taught in class, maybe. But art? don't make no sense to me.

02-11-2006, 10:09 PM	#18 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I've come to the conclusion that it isn't about moral objections to the content, but about excercising power. If you object to the content of a play don't go. If you don't want your children exposed to that content, don't let them participate. Protecting yourself from such problems isn't in the least bit difficult. No it's about excercising your self-appointed moral authority over others, about forcing your moral worldview on others who may not share it. And, ah, irony, don't you just love it. They cancel The Crucible and then cite "historical context" as a reason for not doing the same with Romeo and Juliet. Gilda __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

02-12-2006, 02:25 AM	#21 (permalink)
analog Banned	HOLY SHIT! Teenagers ACTING OUT smoking?!?! KISSING?!?! It's fucking sodom and gomorrah on that stage!!!! What a load of bullshit.

02-12-2006, 04:43 AM	#22 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	What's ironic is it is usually the religious right that wants things banned, say this play, Howard Stern, etc. and yet, the GOP and the right are supposedly the big supporters for free enterprise and allowing the marketplace to dictate what should be available. Yet, it always boils down to they want to allow to be available, to Hell with free market or giving the choice to the people, it is dictated to them. What's sad is noone publicly, whether it is schools or businesses can afford financially to stand up to the few who want to dictate. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

02-12-2006, 06:47 AM	#24 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	Apparently, the minority should only be listened to if they are supporting a liberal-approved cause. This is 100% identical to the school prayer issue. However, because that's about dreaded CHRISTIANITY, it's totally ok for one wackjob to control what people do. The hypocrisy on topics like this is really personally sickening to me. And also, I didn't see where in the story "that fuck racist bush" was mentioned anywhere. Apparently the OP has some inside information about the president spending time shutting down highschool plays.

02-13-2006, 12:34 AM	#37 (permalink)
tspikes51 Fuckin' A Location: Lex Vegas	Except for there only being three bitchers here, I don't see a problem with it. If a larger majority of the community were in arms about it, I'd see less of a problem, but I guess this was not the case. Morality will always exist, and disagreement about it will always come with it. I think that the problem we're having with it today is that we're having trouble identifying the majority, or that the majority is apathetic. __________________ "I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million." -Maddox