Literacy Among College Students Sorely Lacking - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

snowy · 01-20-2006, 05:47 AM

Quote:

More than half of students at four-year colleges and at least 75 percent at two-year colleges lack the literacy to handle complex, real-life tasks such as understanding credit card offers, a study found.

The literacy study funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts, the first to target the skills of graduating students, finds that students fail to lock in key skills no matter their field of study.

The results cut across three types of literacy: analyzing news stories and other prose, understanding documents and having math skills needed for checkbooks or restaurant tips.

Without "proficient" skills, or those needed to perform more complex tasks, students fall behind. They cannot interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.

"It is kind of disturbing that a lot of folks are graduating with a degree and they're not going to be able to do those things," said Stephane Baldi, the study's director at the American Institutes for Research, a behavioral and social science research organization.

Most students at community colleges and four-year schools showed intermediate skills. That means they can do moderately challenging tasks, such as identifying a location on a map.

There was brighter news.

Overall, the average literacy of college students is significantly higher than that of adults across the nation. Study leaders said that was encouraging but not surprising, given that the spectrum of adults includes those with much less education.

Also, compared with all adults with similar levels of education, college students had superior skills in searching and using information from texts and documents.

"But do they do well enough for a highly educated population? For a knowledge-based economy? The answer is no," said Joni Finney, vice president of the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, an independent and nonpartisan group.

"This sends a message that we should be monitoring this as a nation, and we don't do it," Finney said. "States have no idea about the knowledge and skills of their college graduates."

The survey examined college students nearing the end of their degree programs.

The students did the worst on matters involving math, according to the study.

Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.

Baldi and Finney said the survey should be used as a tool. They hope state leaders, educators and university trustees will examine the rigor of courses required of all students.

The college survey used the same test as the National Assessment of Adult Literacy, the government's examination of English literacy among adults. The results of that study were released in December, showing about one in 20 adults is not literate in English.

On campus, the tests were given in 2003 to a representative sample of 1,827 students at public and private schools.

It has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

I just find this so sad. So many of these things are, to me, very basic skills. This paragraph bothered me especially:

Quote:

Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.

How do you drive a car and not know that? I KNOW I have a 20 gallon tank. If my gas meter is showing up with a quarter tank, that's five gallons of gas. I get roughly 22/mpg. That means I have 110 miles left on my tank.

My question is, if people aren't picking up these basic skills by COLLEGE, when should we teach them? Don't we teach them already? It seems to me that these basic skills (such as finding a point on a map) were covered in elementary school. The quantification of how much gas is in my car is a basic math problem, one that certainly doesn't require algebra. I mean, I studied English in college but I still know how to balance my checkbook, calculate a tip, and do the other basic math life requires. Reading tables: also a math thing. Tearing apart arguments: I swear we covered that in both my social studies class junior year of high school and my English class senior year.

So what is the solution if people aren't learning these things in elementary school, middle school, or even high school? Do we offer a "refresher" course? Do we set higher standards for our tertiary institutions so that people push themselves harder to learn these basic skills? After all, what is the point in having a B.A. in political science if you can't comprehend the argument made in your daily newspaper editorial?

Redjake · 01-20-2006, 06:12 AM

While I admit there a ton of graduates that in my opinion shouldn't have the degree, articles like this pop up everywhere. I'm sure for the last "generation" of college graduates (baby boomers or something), similar articles were written and people got just as upset. It reminds me of some quote that I don't have memorized perfectly but it's something like this:

"This generation of students is corrupt, lacks responsibility, is violent, doesn't care about themselves or their future, has no motivation to further themselves academically, and has no common sense." - Some famous guy talking about the generation that George Washington came from.

I know how much gas is in my car and how much will get me to the gas station. All of my friends do also. As far as literacy goes, I agree whole heartedly with the article, but my parents and their colleages don't read or write much better. Why do I have to help them record something on the VCR even though the instructions explain it crystal clear? I think this is just a bunch of hooplah.

Poppinjay · 01-20-2006, 06:22 AM

I have to agree somewhat with Redjake.

The article has some of those weasel words designed to stir outrage.

This quote:

"It is kind of disturbing that a lot of folks are graduating with a degree and they're not going to be able to do those things," said Stephane Baldi, the study's director at the American Institutes for Research, a behavioral and social science research organization.

is a misnomer. They supposedly studied students, not graduates. 40% of college students never graduate. At my school, most were stopped by the Junior exam and the exit literacy exam.

As far as the gas thing goes, how many people knwo how large their gas tank is? I thought mine was 11.5 gallons until I filled it up to 12 one day. That's a red herring. I am almost out of gas when the red light comes on.

Literacy is a big deal for most schools. My college actually instituted a dressed up remedial English course to deal with it (which I as an ENGL major had to tutor), but this kind of mock outrage article comes out as regular as a bran diet.

Siege · 01-20-2006, 07:10 AM

I drive, i've done university level math (not anymore, yay!) and I DON'T know how far the gas in my car will get me. It's not that I can't do the math, it's just that I really don't know what my car's km/L is.

As for literacy. I totally agree. Hell, my university let ME in. With people like me getting in, i'm wondering who ISN'T getting in.

maleficent · 01-20-2006, 08:05 AM

Redjake's correct - I graduated from college 20 years ago - and the same stuff was being said then -- it happens every generation..

I'd be willing to bet that the people being talked about in the article learned their 'basic skills' from their parents - who in turn learned it from their parents. Why should basic life skills be taught in an educational environment. Tipping is more common sense than anything else - I'd be pretty peeved if I had to spend my good money on something I already knew (it was bad enough I was forced into taking an art class - if I had to take remedial life skills I'd be furious) Common sense is what is lacking in a percentage of people in every generation - -even if it was taught in an academic environment - I seriously doubt it would be learned and applied.

alansmithee · 01-20-2006, 08:39 AM

I think they've done studies showing how this generation is less educated than the last, bit I'm not sure. And personally, in my college experience the article is nothing but true. Sometimes I'm floored by the ignorance of my "peers". But then I remember that I will be competing with these people for jobs, so I feel a bit better

.

maleficent · 01-20-2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

I think they've done studies showing how this generation is less educated than the last, bit I'm not sure. And personally, in my college experience the article is nothing but true. Sometimes I'm floored by the ignorance of my "peers". But then I remember that I will be competing with these people for jobs, so I feel a bit better

.

Well it would make sense that every generation gers more and more stupid - -my generation sprouted your generation - and many of us ain't all that bright.. so... it's a trickle down theory.... the next generation will be even dumber...

RAGEAngel9 · 01-20-2006, 08:55 AM

For the record, I'm pretty sure few people actually understand all the crap that's in a stardard credit card contract.

As for kids getting dumber, of course they are, just like every generation before.
Luckily the world seems to manage and even still make an advancement or two while the world gets dumber.

Here's to wanting to feel superior to these here damn youngin's.

Siege · 01-20-2006, 09:48 AM

"In one century, we went from teaching Latin and Greek in high school to offering remedial English in university."

--Joseph Sobran

maleficent · 01-20-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siege

"In one century, we went from teaching Latin and Greek in high school to offering remedial English in university."

--Joseph Sobran

that's accurate but also really sad...

what's the reason? People too busy to learn? Overscheduled kids? Too much technology to rely on rather than actual brain power?

(Latin is sadly about the only thing I remember from junior high and high school... everything else has flown out of my brain)

Jinn · 01-20-2006, 10:06 AM

I have a 14 gallon tank that shows as "below empty" with 12 gallons gone -- two gallons for safety. My MPG varies from 18-36 depending on if its city or interstate driving. That variance alone means I could be off by +- 288 miles. What the hell is the point of estimating it? That's what the gas meter is FOR.

While I see a boatload of ignorance in my generation (college generation) I see just as much, if not more, in older generations. This conclusion is understandly biased by my own age, but I think a study like this makes as many assumptions as I have. I've been watching "Beauty and the Geek" and it clearly shows the spectrum of intelligence. There are just as many idiots as there are geniuses -- that's part of the human experience. So they found a ton of idiots.. that doesn't mean the entire generation is less intelligent.

If I were to make a complete guess based on my experiences, I'd say that our generation is more intelligent than previous generations simply because of the incredible access to information. The harder information is to find, the less likely you are to want to learn. If you can find all the answers you've ever wanted with a few google searches and some library databases, learning is much less of a chore. I'm not saying it's utilized as it should be, but I believe strongly that the more information you have access to, the more potential you have to be extremely intelligent.

BigBen · 01-20-2006, 10:06 AM

There has been a revolution in academia in the past 20 years:

Places of higher learning have "Sold Out". They realized that they can make lots of money by having lots of students enter their institution, and leave four years later. What do you think that does to the merit of the degree?

They have grad students teaching classes, for the love of god! 50 years ago, only PhD's would ever lecture, and the class sizes were small (less than 40). The professor knew your name, and actually pushed you.

Oh, but we can mask this horrible trend by putting cute little names on it, like "Accessibility" and "Equality". Cool!

Do I secretly wish that we could go back in time when University was tough? No thanks. They treated women and minorities very poorly in the past.

Oh, and BTW, university is plenty fucking tough. Subjective measures of intelligence like understanding a credit application form does not convince me.

Go back 50 years and present the same credit application to a law student. It would make their fucking head explode.

Jinn · 01-20-2006, 10:13 AM

While I agree with your post for the most part, I think

Quote:

They have grad students teaching classes, for the love of god! 50 years ago, only PhD's would ever lecture, and the class sizes were small (less than 40). The professor knew your name, and actually pushed you.

is a positive sign of progress rather than a regression.

Graduate students are usually only teaching for two reasons: (a) they just need teaching credit for their EDU degree, or (b) they like helping people learn.

Many of my professors make it clear that they're only teaching because nowhere else would pay the extraordinary salary that a PHD requires. They believe their job is to teach, not for you to learn. While there are notable exeptions, the rule of thumb for me is that the longer someone is a teacher (beyond 10 years) the less effective they become at truly teaching. If you've been a teacher for a long enough, you can forget how to learn -- after all, their job has become teaching, not learning.

I love grad students because they share common experiences of my generation and can relate applicable topics to contemporary ideals. They're learning themselves, so they know how difficult it can be and they know what helps THEM learn.

Just my 2cents.

EDIT: PLUS -- Your odds of getting an smokin' instructor when they're a grad student are easily double those of getting an attractive tenured instructor.

Charlatan · 01-20-2006, 10:26 AM

Ben... the scam that Universities have going is not that they have greater number entering and leaving with a degree. Rather it is that they have huge numbers enrolled in first year and that number greatly reduces by year four.

First year general arts students are a cash cow but the attrition rates are huge.

I don't have a big issue with grad students teaching. It just depends on what they are teaching. I TA'd a class that where the prof was working on his master's degree. He knew what he was doing (even if he was a knob... but that's another story).

The thing is, as others have pointed out, basic knowledge is the problem of Elementary and High School. You shouldn't even be graduating High School if you can't meet these standards.

Randerolf · 01-20-2006, 10:42 AM

What disturbs me is the idea that students are totally out of it and get showered with grants and gifts to go to school. I’m paying my own way for school and never seen a dollar of free money from the government. I see it all the time at school.

College is a business now. There is a spigot of government money to be had. Witness the number of seudo-Universities that do not educate, but charge insane amounts of money for degrees.

I saw an 20/20 special the other night: Stupid in America. It was very interesting. (I think Stossel is great anyways).

Reason article on Stupid in America.

ABC website with video

Cynthetiq · 01-20-2006, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randerolf

What disturbs me is the idea that students are totally out of it and get showered with grants and gifts to go to school. I’m paying my own way for school and never seen a dollar of free money from the government. I see it all the time at school.

College is a business now. There is a spigot of government money to be had. Witness the number of seudo-Universities that do not educate, but charge insane amounts of money for degrees.

I saw an 20/20 special the other night: Stupid in America. It was very interesting. (I think Stossel is great anyways).

Reason article on Stupid in America.

ABC website with video

I still have it on the Tivo. I was quite appalled to see the standardized tests taken by both American and Belgian students. I did like the Belgium student who said "Hello" in several languages and then challenged Americans as a teaster. Most Belgians I have ever met in my life, spoke at least 3 languages fluently.

When I lived in Singapore I had friends who were in the American school, British school, and Chinese schools. The British school was by far the hardest of the 3 with the American school being last. By me saying it was last, I do wish to state that it was however more challenging than any curriculum that I have ever seen. They had to compete with the other schools so their curriculum was much harder than any stateside American school.

xepherys · 01-20-2006, 11:09 AM

Regardless of whether this generation is more or less ignorant, the fact remains that the ignorance is there... and that's the part that gets my feathers ruffled.

Lasereth · 01-20-2006, 11:15 AM

One thing I can agree with is that college students can't read or write worth a shit. Less than 10% of the students at my college write grammatically correct. 90% don't know what a run on sentence is. 90% don't know what a contraction is or when to avoid them. 90% don't know when to use commas and when not to. It's at the point right now that when I turn my papers in, my professors keep them to show other students how to write. It's truly unbelievable.

Here's an example: "The world has known since it's beginning that their is only one very good company, that is good at making computers, Dell."

No joke. It's absurd what kind of trash is turned in here. I don't know if I learned how to write from reading or if it's natural, but something needs to be done. When I proofread papers for people I literally have to <I>stop</I> because I end up re-writing the entire thing. College students can't spell, they can't write, and they can't read. Whether this is unique to our generation is a different argument.

Xazy · 01-20-2006, 01:25 PM

I found college easy after going to private school. My high school literally started at 7:30am, and ended at 7:10pm. It also on Tues, Wed, Thurs went later then that (half a day on Sunday as well). I graduated high school with 39 college credits already. College seemed easy to me, and a lot of classmates in college did scare me, with their education. I say that because a smart teacher told me once, that a class can only go as fast as the slowest student.

But especially in NY where there are standardized tests, the regents, they are a joke. I looked forward to them over a regular final, since there was no comparison in difficulty.

To me our education system needs a major overhaul to begin with. Which I can go into a whole other thread about that another time.

BigBen · 01-20-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

...Here's an example: "The world has known since it's beginning that their is only one very good company, that is good at making computers, Dell."...

My Reply:

Please note that this paper has recieved 0%. You have exactly 7 calendar days to resubmit the assignment in proper form. The grade your resubmission recieves will be considered final.

The writing centre address is:xxxxxxxxxxx
The English department phone number is:xxx-xxxx. They will be able to provide you with a list of tutors/proof-readers.

If you have any questions, comments or concerns, please feel free to contact me during scheduled office hours.

Astrocloud · 01-20-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

If my gas meter is showing up with a quarter tank, that's five gallons of gas.

-This is a fragment, please consider revising the sentence.

Astrocloud · 01-20-2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I don't know if I learned how to write from reading or if it's natural, but something needs to be done.

-Your verb use is off. You might consider revising your sentence.

Astrocloud · 01-20-2006, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

My Reply:

Please note that this paper has recieved 0%. You have exactly 7 calendar days to resubmit the assignment in proper form. The grade your resubmission recieves will be considered final.

The word "receive" is an exception to the "i" before "e" rule. The vowel pair follow a "C". You might consider revising your sentences.

Astrocloud · 01-20-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

Which I can go into a whole other thread about that another time.

This sentence is a fragment. Remember, -you should be very careful about starting a sentence with a preposition.

snowy · 01-20-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

-This is a fragment, please consider revising the sentence.

You're right...I forgot the "then" that should be present.

If my gas meter is showing a quarter of a tank, then that is five gallons of gas. Excuse me, I worked graveyard last night.

Rodney · 01-20-2006, 03:15 PM

I'm in a pretty good position to compare upper-division college literacy skills today against the skills of previous generations: I just went through a teaching credential program last year at the local UC, but got my bachelor's almost 30 years ago.

As a journalism major in the 70s, I made spare change by typing up and copy-editing term term papers for my fellow dormies. Even back then, I had to deal with papers from seniors who said things like "I never got the hang of paragraphs." There were plenty of misspellings, too. I worked mostly for upper division students, mainly science and engineering majors.

As an Ed student and teacher program participant in 2003-2004, I found the writing of most of my early-20-something classmates to be at about the same level of literacy I'd seen in college back in the '70s. Many of them weren't real good at stating and expanding a theme through a ten- or 15-page paper, but neither were the people I worked with 'way back when.

Now the delta: back in the '70s the public state college I went to was very blue-collar, but the public university I attended last year was very upper class. So I could say that a more-or-less privileged student in the '00s writes about as well as the blue-collar kids from the '70s, for what that's worth.

And they don't know the parts of speech anymore. In the credential program, our instructors kept encouraging us to take a class in linguistics after we graduated so we'd better understand the structure of language, and I thought, WTF? I know the structure of language just fine. Well, it turns out that the state of California stopped mandating instruction in the parts of speech in the '80s and '90s, so a bunch of students grew up knowing nothing about the technical aspects of grammar: no sentence diagramming, no discussion of dependent and independent clauses, the tenses, conjunctions, and so on. They were just supposed to pick everything up instinctually. Bad idea, and they've reinstated instruction in the parts of speech in recent years. But a lot of highly educated college grads -- some going off to the wonderful world of teaching -- never learned this stuff formally.

guthmund · 01-20-2006, 09:35 PM

Coincidentally, my advisor and I were talking about this just the other day. She believes that technology is to blame. That's not to say that she thinks we should toss all our gadgets in the trash, but she believes we should be able to operate effectively without them.

She told me a story about a girl in her Comp I class this past semester. She was watching this girl type up her paper before class was supposed to start and noticed that there were an awful lot of green and red 'squigglies' on her copy. The advisor asked the girl if she was going to bother correcting the mistakes and the girl replied, "I don't have to. Word fixes it for me."

My senior English teacher in high school made us type up all of our papers on a pair of typewriters he kept stashed in the corner. You were careful, you were exacting and every sentence that was written on the final paper came from you. Now, while I'm certainly in no position to criticize anyone's writing, I do believe I've a fairly firm handle on how to use the English language properly and I believe that it's because of my senior English teacher and those damn typewriters.

snowy · 01-20-2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthmund

My senior English teacher in high school made us type up all of our papers on a pair of typewriters he kept stashed in the corner. You were careful, you were exacting and every sentence that was written on the final paper came from you. Now, while I'm certainly in no position to criticize anyone's writing, I do believe I've a fairly firm handle on how to use the English language properly and I believe that it's because of my senior English teacher and those damn typewriters.

We had to handwrite ours. They had to be immaculate or else he wouldn't accept them. He also made us write timed essays in class; it was good practice for writing in blue books once I got to college and sat essay exams. Another teacher, who I will never forget, gave us practice worksheets from the Miller Analogies Test. Thanks to him, I got a perfect score on the analogy portion of the SAT. The analogies were part of a larger grammar lesson, one I'm glad I received.

Cynthetiq · 01-20-2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

We had to handwrite ours. They had to be immaculate or else he wouldn't accept them. He also made us write timed essays in class; it was good practice for writing in blue books once I got to college and sat essay exams. Another teacher, who I will never forget, gave us practice worksheets from the Miller Analogies Test. Thanks to him, I got a perfect score on the analogy portion of the SAT. The analogies were part of a larger grammar lesson, one I'm glad I received.

The Foreign Service Workers Exam has a written component. It is to be written during the exam and is to be written in final draft in pen.

Many people were quite upset and distressed about this except for me and Skogafoss.

maleficent · 01-21-2006, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney

no sentence diagramming,

Just recently, one of the children of the guys I work with came to me for help in diagramming sentences... both parents had no clue and the teacher didn't explain it all that well... Thanks to Sister Agnes in 6th grade... I can still diagram like nobody's business...

(Being able to diagram sentences seemed to be something that was an integral part of a Catholic school education

Though my grammar, spelling, and punctuation skills are still atrocious -- but that's because I am lazy...

snowy · 01-21-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Just recently, one of the children of the guys I work with came to me for help in diagramming sentences... both parents had no clue and the teacher didn't explain it all that well... Thanks to Sister Agnes in 6th grade... I can still diagram like nobody's business...

(Being able to diagram sentences seemed to be something that was an integral part of a Catholic school education

Though my grammar, spelling, and punctuation skills are still atrocious -- but that's because I am lazy...

I am proud to say I am 23 years old and I can diagram a sentence.

The only reason why I keep this knowledge handy is so I can teach it to youngsters some day

I really wouldn't want to go into teaching without knowing the basics of grammar, and so I'm glad I have (mostly) a good grasp of the essentials.

Vincentt · 01-21-2006, 06:52 AM

Uh...

1,827 students took this test.

Split among 2 year, 4 year, private, and public universities.
What state? What colleges? Was this already small number split evenly among majors?

Are you going to tell me that this test was given to a good sample of the entire United States of America?

Anyway, do with this as you will.

I wouldn’t put too much behind it though. College students don’t have time to waste filling out an upgraded survey. And it wouldn’t be all that surprising if people bullshited it.

In fact… if I recall, the only time I did any surveys on my campus, was in psychology lab.
And that was because we were forced to do 5 for a grade.
I remember distantly rushing through all of them.

01-20-2006, 06:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	While I admit there a ton of graduates that in my opinion shouldn't have the degree, articles like this pop up everywhere. I'm sure for the last "generation" of college graduates (baby boomers or something), similar articles were written and people got just as upset. It reminds me of some quote that I don't have memorized perfectly but it's something like this: "This generation of students is corrupt, lacks responsibility, is violent, doesn't care about themselves or their future, has no motivation to further themselves academically, and has no common sense." - Some famous guy talking about the generation that George Washington came from. I know how much gas is in my car and how much will get me to the gas station. All of my friends do also. As far as literacy goes, I agree whole heartedly with the article, but my parents and their colleages don't read or write much better. Why do I have to help them record something on the VCR even though the instructions explain it crystal clear? I think this is just a bunch of hooplah. __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

01-20-2006, 06:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I have to agree somewhat with Redjake. The article has some of those weasel words designed to stir outrage. This quote: "It is kind of disturbing that a lot of folks are graduating with a degree and they're not going to be able to do those things," said Stephane Baldi, the study's director at the American Institutes for Research, a behavioral and social science research organization. is a misnomer. They supposedly studied students, not graduates. 40% of college students never graduate. At my school, most were stopped by the Junior exam and the exit literacy exam. As far as the gas thing goes, how many people knwo how large their gas tank is? I thought mine was 11.5 gallons until I filled it up to 12 one day. That's a red herring. I am almost out of gas when the red light comes on. Literacy is a big deal for most schools. My college actually instituted a dressed up remedial English course to deal with it (which I as an ENGL major had to tutor), but this kind of mock outrage article comes out as regular as a bran diet. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

01-20-2006, 07:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
Siege is a tiger Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	I drive, i've done university level math (not anymore, yay!) and I DON'T know how far the gas in my car will get me. It's not that I can't do the math, it's just that I really don't know what my car's km/L is. As for literacy. I totally agree. Hell, my university let ME in. With people like me getting in, i'm wondering who ISN'T getting in. __________________ "Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek" --Kevin Smith This part just makes my posts easier to find

01-20-2006, 08:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Redjake's correct - I graduated from college 20 years ago - and the same stuff was being said then -- it happens every generation.. I'd be willing to bet that the people being talked about in the article learned their 'basic skills' from their parents - who in turn learned it from their parents. Why should basic life skills be taught in an educational environment. Tipping is more common sense than anything else - I'd be pretty peeved if I had to spend my good money on something I already knew (it was bad enough I was forced into taking an art class - if I had to take remedial life skills I'd be furious) Common sense is what is lacking in a percentage of people in every generation - -even if it was taught in an academic environment - I seriously doubt it would be learned and applied. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

01-20-2006, 09:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
Siege is a tiger Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	"In one century, we went from teaching Latin and Greek in high school to offering remedial English in university." --Joseph Sobran __________________ "Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek" --Kevin Smith This part just makes my posts easier to find

01-20-2006, 08:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	I think they've done studies showing how this generation is less educated than the last, bit I'm not sure. And personally, in my college experience the article is nothing but true. Sometimes I'm floored by the ignorance of my "peers". But then I remember that I will be competing with these people for jobs, so I feel a bit better .

01-20-2006, 08:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
RAGEAngel9 Insane Location: Vermont	For the record, I'm pretty sure few people actually understand all the crap that's in a stardard credit card contract. As for kids getting dumber, of course they are, just like every generation before. Luckily the world seems to manage and even still make an advancement or two while the world gets dumber. Here's to wanting to feel superior to these here damn youngin's.

01-20-2006, 10:06 AM	#11 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I have a 14 gallon tank that shows as "below empty" with 12 gallons gone -- two gallons for safety. My MPG varies from 18-36 depending on if its city or interstate driving. That variance alone means I could be off by +- 288 miles. What the hell is the point of estimating it? That's what the gas meter is FOR. While I see a boatload of ignorance in my generation (college generation) I see just as much, if not more, in older generations. This conclusion is understandly biased by my own age, but I think a study like this makes as many assumptions as I have. I've been watching "Beauty and the Geek" and it clearly shows the spectrum of intelligence. There are just as many idiots as there are geniuses -- that's part of the human experience. So they found a ton of idiots.. that doesn't mean the entire generation is less intelligent. If I were to make a complete guess based on my experiences, I'd say that our generation is more intelligent than previous generations simply because of the incredible access to information. The harder information is to find, the less likely you are to want to learn. If you can find all the answers you've ever wanted with a few google searches and some library databases, learning is much less of a chore. I'm not saying it's utilized as it should be, but I believe strongly that the more information you have access to, the more potential you have to be extremely intelligent. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

01-20-2006, 10:06 AM	#12 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	There has been a revolution in academia in the past 20 years: Places of higher learning have "Sold Out". They realized that they can make lots of money by having lots of students enter their institution, and leave four years later. What do you think that does to the merit of the degree? They have grad students teaching classes, for the love of god! 50 years ago, only PhD's would ever lecture, and the class sizes were small (less than 40). The professor knew your name, and actually pushed you. Oh, but we can mask this horrible trend by putting cute little names on it, like "Accessibility" and "Equality". Cool! Do I secretly wish that we could go back in time when University was tough? No thanks. They treated women and minorities very poorly in the past. Oh, and BTW, university is plenty fucking tough. Subjective measures of intelligence like understanding a credit application form does not convince me. Go back 50 years and present the same credit application to a law student. It would make their fucking head explode. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-20-2006, 10:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Ben... the scam that Universities have going is not that they have greater number entering and leaving with a degree. Rather it is that they have huge numbers enrolled in first year and that number greatly reduces by year four. First year general arts students are a cash cow but the attrition rates are huge. I don't have a big issue with grad students teaching. It just depends on what they are teaching. I TA'd a class that where the prof was working on his master's degree. He knew what he was doing (even if he was a knob... but that's another story). The thing is, as others have pointed out, basic knowledge is the problem of Elementary and High School. You shouldn't even be graduating High School if you can't meet these standards. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-20-2006, 10:42 AM	#15 (permalink)
Randerolf Fireball Location: ~	What disturbs me is the idea that students are totally out of it and get showered with grants and gifts to go to school. I’m paying my own way for school and never seen a dollar of free money from the government. I see it all the time at school. College is a business now. There is a spigot of government money to be had. Witness the number of seudo-Universities that do not educate, but charge insane amounts of money for degrees. I saw an 20/20 special the other night: Stupid in America. It was very interesting. (I think Stossel is great anyways). Reason article on Stupid in America. ABC website with video Last edited by Randerolf; 01-20-2006 at 10:48 AM..

01-20-2006, 11:09 AM	#17 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Regardless of whether this generation is more or less ignorant, the fact remains that the ignorance is there... and that's the part that gets my feathers ruffled.

01-20-2006, 11:15 AM	#18 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	One thing I can agree with is that college students can't read or write worth a shit. Less than 10% of the students at my college write grammatically correct. 90% don't know what a run on sentence is. 90% don't know what a contraction is or when to avoid them. 90% don't know when to use commas and when not to. It's at the point right now that when I turn my papers in, my professors keep them to show other students how to write. It's truly unbelievable. Here's an example: "The world has known since it's beginning that their is only one very good company, that is good at making computers, Dell." No joke. It's absurd what kind of trash is turned in here. I don't know if I learned how to write from reading or if it's natural, but something needs to be done. When I proofread papers for people I literally have to <I>stop</I> because I end up re-writing the entire thing. College students can't spell, they can't write, and they can't read. Whether this is unique to our generation is a different argument. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

01-20-2006, 01:25 PM	#19 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	I found college easy after going to private school. My high school literally started at 7:30am, and ended at 7:10pm. It also on Tues, Wed, Thurs went later then that (half a day on Sunday as well). I graduated high school with 39 college credits already. College seemed easy to me, and a lot of classmates in college did scare me, with their education. I say that because a smart teacher told me once, that a class can only go as fast as the slowest student. But especially in NY where there are standardized tests, the regents, they are a joke. I looked forward to them over a regular final, since there was no comparison in difficulty. To me our education system needs a major overhaul to begin with. Which I can go into a whole other thread about that another time.

01-20-2006, 03:15 PM	#26 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I'm in a pretty good position to compare upper-division college literacy skills today against the skills of previous generations: I just went through a teaching credential program last year at the local UC, but got my bachelor's almost 30 years ago. As a journalism major in the 70s, I made spare change by typing up and copy-editing term term papers for my fellow dormies. Even back then, I had to deal with papers from seniors who said things like "I never got the hang of paragraphs." There were plenty of misspellings, too. I worked mostly for upper division students, mainly science and engineering majors. As an Ed student and teacher program participant in 2003-2004, I found the writing of most of my early-20-something classmates to be at about the same level of literacy I'd seen in college back in the '70s. Many of them weren't real good at stating and expanding a theme through a ten- or 15-page paper, but neither were the people I worked with 'way back when. Now the delta: back in the '70s the public state college I went to was very blue-collar, but the public university I attended last year was very upper class. So I could say that a more-or-less privileged student in the '00s writes about as well as the blue-collar kids from the '70s, for what that's worth. And they don't know the parts of speech anymore. In the credential program, our instructors kept encouraging us to take a class in linguistics after we graduated so we'd better understand the structure of language, and I thought, WTF? I know the structure of language just fine. Well, it turns out that the state of California stopped mandating instruction in the parts of speech in the '80s and '90s, so a bunch of students grew up knowing nothing about the technical aspects of grammar: no sentence diagramming, no discussion of dependent and independent clauses, the tenses, conjunctions, and so on. They were just supposed to pick everything up instinctually. Bad idea, and they've reinstated instruction in the parts of speech in recent years. But a lot of highly educated college grads -- some going off to the wonderful world of teaching -- never learned this stuff formally.

01-20-2006, 09:35 PM	#27 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	Coincidentally, my advisor and I were talking about this just the other day. She believes that technology is to blame. That's not to say that she thinks we should toss all our gadgets in the trash, but she believes we should be able to operate effectively without them. She told me a story about a girl in her Comp I class this past semester. She was watching this girl type up her paper before class was supposed to start and noticed that there were an awful lot of green and red 'squigglies' on her copy. The advisor asked the girl if she was going to bother correcting the mistakes and the girl replied, "I don't have to. Word fixes it for me." My senior English teacher in high school made us type up all of our papers on a pair of typewriters he kept stashed in the corner. You were careful, you were exacting and every sentence that was written on the final paper came from you. Now, while I'm certainly in no position to criticize anyone's writing, I do believe I've a fairly firm handle on how to use the English language properly and I believe that it's because of my senior English teacher and those damn typewriters. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

01-21-2006, 06:52 AM	#32 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	Uh... 1,827 students took this test. Split among 2 year, 4 year, private, and public universities. What state? What colleges? Was this already small number split evenly among majors? Are you going to tell me that this test was given to a good sample of the entire United States of America? Anyway, do with this as you will. I wouldn’t put too much behind it though. College students don’t have time to waste filling out an upgraded survey. And it wouldn’t be all that surprising if people bullshited it. In fact… if I recall, the only time I did any surveys on my campus, was in psychology lab. And that was because we were forced to do 5 for a grade. I remember distantly rushing through all of them. __________________ .