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I like you Pan, but creating a thread like this and calling "the other side" names while only posting a single example of "your side's" negativity can not possibly result in rationale discourse.
There's far too much bullshit in the politics area. Logic is secondary. Everything is so easily ascribed to political ideology that the subject becomes moot. I've had a few very good conversations in politics but they are very few and far between. And in every one of these, where some common ground has been found, I've fooled myself into seeing a glimmer of hope that I could now enter into rationale discourse with one or two of the "usual suspects" who rail against the "right" (which by default ends up being me) but, alas, it has only happened three times that I can recall. Pan, mml, and even Superbelt and I have gone on to having some very productive conversations (at least IMO) once we established a certain level of respect for each others' viewpoints. Obviously progress can be made but it takes work and a concerted effort to put the partisanship behind. It's far too easy to default into defense/offense when being attacked for your point of view. I'm no better than most others when it comes to that. Thankfully on these few occasions we've succeeded and I think we all got a little bit more understanding out of it.
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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
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