the sword is the soul of the samurai... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ziadel · 01-27-2005, 06:49 PM

Now, this may very well be in the wrong forum, but please bear with me as this thread has to do with both the soul, and weapons...

anyways, as you may or may not know, the samurai considered their sword to be their soul...

now, my question is, what were the spiritual implications of their swords breaking? because swords to break, through either misuse, or putting them through the one millionth customers head, they do break... so were the implications to the samurai when that occured? did they just get a new sword and THAT was their soul? was there some sort of ceremony?

just another friendly attempt to get some answers, and mebbe start a good conversation

albazeroex · 01-27-2005, 08:32 PM

id never actually thought of that before. though if i ever need to get my blade resharpened, i feel kind of sad cause part of my sword are gone through the resharpening process

ziadel · 01-27-2005, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albazeroex

id never actually thought of that before. though if i ever need to get my blade resharpened, i feel kind of sad cause part of my sword are gone through the resharpening process

in all the books I've read on the Samurai, I don't EVER recall that being adressed...

if I dont get an answer here, I'm headed to the Bugei forums...

The_Dunedan · 01-27-2005, 09:30 PM

I think it's a metaphorical thing, really. Because the simple fact is that all swords break, and Katanas break more easily than most under hard use, due to their glass-fine edges.

The statement could be said to mean "Bushido is the soul of the Samurai," with Bushido of course being "The Way of the Sword," and being used as an overarching descriptor for the Samurai's hyper-perfectionistic lifestyle.

im2smrt4u · 01-28-2005, 02:01 AM

A broken katana became a wakizashi. i don't know if there was any sort of "retirement" done to the broken blade though.

Charlatan · 01-28-2005, 08:25 AM

It is definately more of metaphorical thing... A good sword would be quite expensive and more than likely haned down from generation to generation... As a result their is a lot of repsect given to the sword.

To have it break in combat would be an honourable "death" for a katana. To have it break due to the lack of upkeep (i.e. cleaning and sharpening) would be disgraceful.

ziadel · 01-28-2005, 10:47 AM

k, k

good answers in this thread...

I get so attached to my weapons

I'll cry the day I have to retire any of my weapons

Ripsaw · 01-28-2005, 10:55 AM

You actually "use" your weapons regularly? An attachment to any one thing, be it a weapon, a place, or a person, is a liability.

ziadel · 01-28-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripsaw

You actually "use" your weapons regularly? An attachment to any one thing, be it a weapon, a place, or a person, is a liability.

I shoot regularly, and my knives are all WELL used, granted not used upon people, but still used...

Suave · 01-28-2005, 01:41 PM

If I had bigger nuts and less sensibility, I'd try going deer hunting with a katana.

ziadel · 01-28-2005, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

If I had bigger nuts and less sensibility, I'd try going deer hunting with a katana.

next time my grandmother butchers chickens... every time I see them doing that, I'm like, hey, why not just behead the things

dunno if I'm gonna try tho...

wrestler315 · 01-30-2005, 09:16 AM

hm, deer hunting with a katana eh?

*evil cackle*

runs off to buy a katana

ianthegoat · 02-03-2005, 12:31 PM

Slightly off topic, sorry:

If there was a dangerous intruder in your house, and you had to choose between a katana or a wakizashi to defend yourself...?

I've got both on my wall, along with a kukri, and I often wonder which I'd grab in a critical moment. I'm thinking wakizashi. Although it is shorter, it has greater wieldability in close quarters, and still damn sharp.

btw, this forum is very entertaining, and full of information. Thank you.

Ripsaw · 02-03-2005, 12:40 PM

Neither. Run. Would it really be worth your life to fight over your stereo?

Suave · 02-03-2005, 12:52 PM

I'd go with "run" as well, unless you've actually trained. Then I'd say wakizashi, because katanas are too damn big for indoors.

soundmotor · 02-03-2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianthegoat

Slightly off topic, sorry:

If there was a dangerous intruder in your house, and you had to choose between a katana or a wakizashi to defend yourself...?

I've got both on my wall, along with a kukri, and I often wonder which I'd grab in a critical moment. I'm thinking wakizashi. Although it is shorter, it has greater wieldability in close quarters, and still damn sharp.

btw, this forum is very entertaining, and full of information. Thank you.

I always ask this critical question when faced with a life or death situation:

WWUD?

What would Uma do?

soundmotor

queedo · 02-16-2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianthegoat

Slightly off topic, sorry:

If there was a dangerous intruder in your house, and you had to choose between a katana or a wakizashi to defend yourself...?

I've got both on my wall, along with a kukri, and I often wonder which I'd grab in a critical moment. I'm thinking wakizashi. Although it is shorter, it has greater wieldability in close quarters, and still damn sharp.

btw, this forum is very entertaining, and full of information. Thank you.

I would use the wakizashi as well.

I have also heard that the sword is considered the soul of the warrior. The real soul of the warrior is his ability to do the things he knows are right and to never quit even if his sword would break.

whocarz · 02-17-2005, 04:37 AM

I would also reach for the wakizashi, until I remembered that there is an AK47 next to my bed. I would get that.

ziadel · 02-17-2005, 02:17 PM

you guys would take the wakizashi!?

honestly, are you that fucking stupid???

wtf is wrong with you!??!?!??

you've got two hands, one for the katana, and one for the wakizashi

lukethebandgeek · 02-17-2005, 02:22 PM

A regular Brave Fencer Musashi.

03-10-2005, 06:17 AM

i think an actual katana that was intended to be used in battle was most likely thicker and stronger than most swords you can buy today, but still... imagine what happesn to that razor edge when it is smashed into another razor edge? i'm not sure exactly how long they couldve lasted, but they could very well have them re-tempered. anyways, though, i don't think they meant thier personal sword was thier soul, i think they just meant that the way of the sword was thier soul. the instrument of death could be replaced, i think it was the principal of the thing. but it's still really neat to imagine a samurai using a broken sword. i think i'll write it into a story.

The_Dunedan · 03-10-2005, 10:36 AM

kitsune,
Nope, a good Katana today will be a pretty good facsimale, including weight and heft, of an original. The Katana, remember, is not a chopping weapon: the design of the blade is best suited for a kind of rotary, shearing draw-cut which is just plain nasty. A lightweight ( and therefore very fast-moving ) blade is best suited for this.

Due to its' beveled edge, the Katana is very good at cutting metal IF the metal it's cutting is met at an oblique angle to prevent the edge from chipping or shattering. The cutting edge of a well-made Katana is RC-60 or higher, but is so thin and fine ( in cross section ) that it will chip at a harsh word and shatter under extreme stresses; the kind of stresses one finds when meeting a metal object at 90 degrees, for instance.

Parries worldwide, it's also important to note, are NOT made with the cutting edge; you parry with either the flat or the spine ( reverse edge of a single-edged sword ) of the blade, specifically in order to avoid damaging the cutting edge. Re-tempering a sword was almost impossible if you wanted anything other than a wall-hanger, and filing the chips out of a fine-sectioned edge would be almost impossible; the Japanese went to great pains to develop very subtle and effective rotary parries which did not damage the edge for this reason.

Charlatan · 03-10-2005, 10:45 AM

These techniques are still present in Kendo and Kendo-no-kata today...

01-27-2005, 06:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	the sword is the soul of the samurai... Now, this may very well be in the wrong forum, but please bear with me as this thread has to do with both the soul, and weapons... anyways, as you may or may not know, the samurai considered their sword to be their soul... now, my question is, what were the spiritual implications of their swords breaking? because swords to break, through either misuse, or putting them through the one millionth customers head, they do break... so were the implications to the samurai when that occured? did they just get a new sword and THAT was their soul? was there some sort of ceremony? just another friendly attempt to get some answers, and mebbe start a good conversation __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

01-28-2005, 02:01 AM	#5 (permalink)
im2smrt4u Beer Aficionado Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA	A broken katana became a wakizashi. i don't know if there was any sort of "retirement" done to the broken blade though. __________________ Starkizzer Fan Club - President & Founder

01-28-2005, 08:25 AM	#6 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	It is definately more of metaphorical thing... A good sword would be quite expensive and more than likely haned down from generation to generation... As a result their is a lot of repsect given to the sword. To have it break in combat would be an honourable "death" for a katana. To have it break due to the lack of upkeep (i.e. cleaning and sharpening) would be disgraceful. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-28-2005, 10:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	k, k good answers in this thread... I get so attached to my weapons I'll cry the day I have to retire any of my weapons __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

01-28-2005, 10:55 AM	#8 (permalink)
Ripsaw Chef in Training	You actually "use" your weapons regularly? An attachment to any one thing, be it a weapon, a place, or a person, is a liability. __________________ "We are supposed to be masters of space, but we cant even line up our shoes?" One life, one chance, one opportunity.

01-27-2005, 08:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
albazeroex Upright	id never actually thought of that before. though if i ever need to get my blade resharpened, i feel kind of sad cause part of my sword are gone through the resharpening process

01-27-2005, 09:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	I think it's a metaphorical thing, really. Because the simple fact is that all swords break, and Katanas break more easily than most under hard use, due to their glass-fine edges. The statement could be said to mean "Bushido is the soul of the Samurai," with Bushido of course being "The Way of the Sword," and being used as an overarching descriptor for the Samurai's hyper-perfectionistic lifestyle.

01-28-2005, 01:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	If I had bigger nuts and less sensibility, I'd try going deer hunting with a katana. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

01-30-2005, 09:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
wrestler315 Upright	hm, deer hunting with a katana eh? evil cackle runs off to buy a katana

02-03-2005, 12:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
ianthegoat Upright Location: Cornvalley, Oregon	Slightly off topic, sorry: If there was a dangerous intruder in your house, and you had to choose between a katana or a wakizashi to defend yourself...? I've got both on my wall, along with a kukri, and I often wonder which I'd grab in a critical moment. I'm thinking wakizashi. Although it is shorter, it has greater wieldability in close quarters, and still damn sharp. btw, this forum is very entertaining, and full of information. Thank you.

02-03-2005, 12:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
Ripsaw Chef in Training	Neither. Run. Would it really be worth your life to fight over your stereo? __________________ "We are supposed to be masters of space, but we cant even line up our shoes?" One life, one chance, one opportunity.

02-03-2005, 12:52 PM	#15 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I'd go with "run" as well, unless you've actually trained. Then I'd say wakizashi, because katanas are too damn big for indoors. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

02-17-2005, 04:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
whocarz Jarhead Location: Colorado	I would also reach for the wakizashi, until I remembered that there is an AK47 next to my bed. I would get that. __________________ If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

02-17-2005, 02:17 PM	#19 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	you guys would take the wakizashi!? honestly, are you that fucking stupid??? wtf is wrong with you!??!?!?? you've got two hands, one for the katana, and one for the wakizashi __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

02-17-2005, 02:22 PM	#20 (permalink)
lukethebandgeek Chicks dig the Saxaphone Location: Nowheresville OH	A regular Brave Fencer Musashi. __________________ Yes, band camp is all it's cracked up to be. So I like Chrono... So what?

03-10-2005, 06:17 AM	#21 (permalink)
kitsune Guest	i think an actual katana that was intended to be used in battle was most likely thicker and stronger than most swords you can buy today, but still... imagine what happesn to that razor edge when it is smashed into another razor edge? i'm not sure exactly how long they couldve lasted, but they could very well have them re-tempered. anyways, though, i don't think they meant thier personal sword was thier soul, i think they just meant that the way of the sword was thier soul. the instrument of death could be replaced, i think it was the principal of the thing. but it's still really neat to imagine a samurai using a broken sword. i think i'll write it into a story.

03-10-2005, 10:36 AM	#22 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	kitsune, Nope, a good Katana today will be a pretty good facsimale, including weight and heft, of an original. The Katana, remember, is not a chopping weapon: the design of the blade is best suited for a kind of rotary, shearing draw-cut which is just plain nasty. A lightweight ( and therefore very fast-moving ) blade is best suited for this. Due to its' beveled edge, the Katana is very good at cutting metal IF the metal it's cutting is met at an oblique angle to prevent the edge from chipping or shattering. The cutting edge of a well-made Katana is RC-60 or higher, but is so thin and fine ( in cross section ) that it will chip at a harsh word and shatter under extreme stresses; the kind of stresses one finds when meeting a metal object at 90 degrees, for instance. Parries worldwide, it's also important to note, are NOT made with the cutting edge; you parry with either the flat or the spine ( reverse edge of a single-edged sword ) of the blade, specifically in order to avoid damaging the cutting edge. Re-tempering a sword was almost impossible if you wanted anything other than a wall-hanger, and filing the chips out of a fine-sectioned edge would be almost impossible; the Japanese went to great pains to develop very subtle and effective rotary parries which did not damage the edge for this reason.

03-10-2005, 10:45 AM	#23 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	These techniques are still present in Kendo and Kendo-no-kata today... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke