The FBI Swat Pistol...quite a saga and a good read... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ziadel · 01-16-2005, 11:35 AM

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...24/ai_57886947

What I find interesting and surprising is that Wilson could'nt puke up the same accuracy that Springfield did...

while I do think that asking for 1.5" from Golden Sabre is a tall order, how Springfield did it and Wilson could not most likely has something to do with all of Wilson's talent going ino business for themselves (if you have a WIlson COmbat pistol, look at the test target that came with your gun, all the names on if have gone on to form Nighthawk Customs (http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/).. I'm still not sure what prompted the split, so if anyone knows pipe up)

anyways, I found it to be a very good read, very informative.

Long live the 1911.

ziadel · 01-16-2005, 11:38 AM

heres the peice they choose:

ziadel · 01-17-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

anyways, I found it to be a very good read, very informative.

or mebbe its just me

Moonduck · 01-17-2005, 05:57 PM

Neat article. Shame that S&W dropped the ball (again) as it would've been good to hear how they did with the 945. Looks like the FBI got a nice piece.

As a 10mm fan though, I'm still irritated at how the FBI destroyed the 10mm commercially by their bad press, when it was their decisions to screw with the loads that lead to the functionality problems they experienced. Yup, 10mm has a lil bit of kick. Don't expect a round with terminal ballistics along the lines of .357 magnum to not kick. Physics is not your friend in this matter.

And, lastly, I will opine yet again that I wish I could like the 1911. Conceptually, I do. As a longtime gun guy, I consider it, overall, the best fighting pistol in history. My hands just can't stand em though. For some reason, the 1911 just feels about 11 sorts of wrong in my paws. When it comes to combat autos, gimme a High Power, Glock, USP, or Sig any day. Just fits me better. Shame too. Nothing shoots quite like a properly accurized 1911. Well, except for any moderately good quality revolver out of the box =)

Did I mention that I grew up a wheelgunner? LOL.

Suave · 01-17-2005, 11:12 PM

I think it's really cool that a gun so classic is still chosen as the principle firearm by law enforcement agencies. In response to the last post though, I find that Glocks (at least the uncompensated ones) are harsher to fire than pretty much any other type of pistol (.44 magnums and down that I've fired).

ziadel · 01-17-2005, 11:31 PM

BLASPHEMER!!!!!!!!!!!!

John Moses Browning designed two REALLY popular pistols...

first was the 1911....
second was the High-Power...

he did a lot of other stuff, but those two are both alive and well today...
the high-power was the first gun to use a double stack mag, and it's said that the high-power is a refined 1911, they're similar, but not the same... many prefer the 1911, and some prefer the High-Power, it's interesting to note that the FBI swat teams were using High-Powers, and Jeff Cooper considers the Winchester Model 94 (another John Moses Browning design) to be the most effective assault weapon around today

and the 1911 has gone beyond classic, I mean, the damn thing was designed for use by mounted cavalry. its almost 100 years old, off the top of my head I cannot think of another thing so enduring...

but, its also important to note that MOST law enrocement agencies SHUN the 1911 nowadays. Why? because of its evil single action. Single action guns carried locked and cocked are considered quite a liability...they don't want cops shooting themselves with them... whats funny is that soldiers werent having ANY trouble not shooting themselves... who ever thought that police officers should be less proficient with weapons than a common grunt is a freaking tool.

and Moonduck, have you handled any of the double stack 1911's? mebbe the extra width would help them settle in your hand more properly? have you ever handled a 1911 with its grip safety pinned shut? I've heard of people who hated the 1911 until they shot one sans grip safety, then they found it much more pleasant..

Quote:

The lusty Colt
the trusty Colt
the pistol democratic
whos viscious might
makes men one height
the army automatic

ziadel · 01-17-2005, 11:36 PM

whoops, Suave edited out his blasphemous High-Power comment, but I'll leave it there for anyone else who is wondering about the Hi-power...

as for Glocks, well, polymer doesn't soak up recoil the same way steel does *shrug*
and that safe action trigger crap is horrendous IMO

its just the nature of the beast I guess.

oh, and the 10mm, I dunno, its a lot of bang, bang that could be gotten elsewhere more easily (why buy a 10mm when you can just get a .44 and not have to hope the local store has 10mm ammo in stock?)... I just don't think it was that badly needed, hence it died... I dunno tho, I hope to own one someday, but would I carry it? most likely not. its just too much for me to safely wield...

Dostoevsky · 01-18-2005, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

oh, and the 10mm, I dunno, its a lot of bang, bang that could be gotten elsewhere more easily (why buy a 10mm when you can just get a .44 and not have to hope the local store has 10mm ammo in stock?)... I just don't think it was that badly needed, hence it died... I dunno tho, I hope to own one someday, but would I carry it? most likely not. its just too much for me to safely wield...

If you take ballistics into consideration a better comparison can be made between the 10 mm and the .357 mag, not the .44, which is considerably more powerful.

To answer your question, I would buy a 10mm instead of a .44 because there are many scenarios where I would prefer to carry a semi-auto than a revolver. The glock 20 (full size 10mm) is a beautiful weapon as is the glock 29 (compact 10 mm). I know there are some other companies that produce firearms chambered in 10mm also. It's not dead and I hope it doesn't die. I know I'm not the only person who feels 10mm is a great round!

Dostoevsky · 01-18-2005, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

how Springfield did it and Wilson could not most likely has something to do with all of Wilson's talent going ino business for themselves...I'm still not sure what prompted the split, so if anyone knows pipe up

Hey Ziadel, I actually know exactly what happened over there. A friend of mine was formerly an avid collector of Wilson firearms and now collects the Nighthawks. Anyhow, he asked the guys from Nighthawk why they left Wilson combat and they pretty much said that old Bill Wilson was getting unbearable. They felt like they were being underpaid and not given enough control over creativity. Most of them just wanted to begin doing something on their own, imcluding his own son, who works with knives in some capacity from what I understand. Anyhow, that's the story I got second hand from a good friend.

Suave · 01-18-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

whoops, Suave edited out his blasphemous High-Power comment, but I'll leave it there for anyone else who is wondering about the Hi-power...

as for Glocks, well, polymer doesn't soak up recoil the same way steel does *shrug*
and that safe action trigger crap is horrendous IMO

its just the nature of the beast I guess.

oh, and the 10mm, I dunno, its a lot of bang, bang that could be gotten elsewhere more easily (why buy a 10mm when you can just get a .44 and not have to hope the local store has 10mm ammo in stock?)... I just don't think it was that badly needed, hence it died... I dunno tho, I hope to own one someday, but would I carry it? most likely not. its just too much for me to safely wield...

Yeah. After I re-read my post, I second guessed myself and looked it up.

Have you (or has anyone) fired a compensated Glock versus a regular one? If so, was there a noticeable improvement?

Moonduck · 01-18-2005, 01:56 PM

On Glocks - I own a G-19. It's a sweet little semi-compact in 9mm. You don't need steel to absorb the recoil of 9mm. I don't like the creepiness of the "safe" trigger either, but the other qualities of the gun are such that I am dead-pleased with it, and would trust my life to it. I have puts tons of ammo through it, from the good stuff down to garbage so awful that I was embarrassed to clean the brass off the range floor. It tossed it all downrange without one complaint in thousands upon thousands of rounds. Glocks are ugly, but functional, wierd and creepy, but trustworthy.

The G-19 also fits my hand well. It's more a case of a totally functional piece that I trust in all situations. Glocks have less muzzle flip when the magazine is full, by the way. Sucks if you're blowing ammo downrange, but for defensive shoots, it's great.

High Powers - The High Power was the very first autoloading pistol I ever fired. I still remember it like it was yesterday. A buddy of mine finally got his dad to allow us to take his Chi-Com marked Viet Nam war trophy pistol to the range. The gun hadn't seen live fire in about ten years, so I gave it some good lovins with RemOil (s'what I used then) and Hoppe's #9 (what I still use). It was a beautiful gun. Silky smooth finish with grips that glowed in the afternoon sun. Took her to the range and put 300rds through it that afternoon. Wow, whatta gun. I felt like having a cigarette afterwards, and I don't smoke. To this day, I think of the High Power first whenever the phrase "combat pistol" floats across my ears.

On 10mm - My 10mm is a S&W 1026. It's a full-sized, matte stainless brute with no active safety, only a decocker and passive firing pin block. When the FBI went to 10mm (in the 1076, same gun with a shorter barrel/slide), the Virginia State Police went to 10mm shortly thereafter (from .357 mag wheelguns, IIRC). When the FBI screwed 10mm, the VA State Police ditched the 10mm shortly thereafter as well. Well, those beastly 10's showed up every once in a while in gunstores hereabouts. I saw one with 3 mags and the Safariland secure holster and mag pouch for $275, so you can imagine that I jumped all over it happily. The leather alone was more than a third of the total price when new. Well, I took it to the range, bought a coupla hundred rounds of 10mm and went to town. Couldn't believe it. Here was an auto that shot just like my beloved .357 magnum. I could see why the VASP could transition so easily to it from their .357's. It was also an accurate piece, relatively. Not up to my wheelguns or a well-tuned 1911, but certainly above the average 1911 by a good measure. SUffice to say that I like it quite a bit, and like th eload even more.

The 10mm is an easy round to double stack, and performs exceedingly well. The potential firepower of a double-stack 10mm is obscene in a pistol, and beats damned near every other gun hands down. My personal favourite was the full-size Tanfoglio what could hold something crazy like 19rds of 10mm. That's a lotta shooty.

On double-stack 1911's - I owned a Para Ordnance P14-45. Nice gun. It had been lightly slicked up with a beavertail safety, flat spring housing, nice trigger, and nightsights. Got it for $300 and couldn't believe my fortune. Took it to the range, and was sooo disappointed. Here was a 1911 that filled my hand (your suspiscions are correct vis a vis double stack vs single stack) and shot so well, yet I still didn't like the feel. I can't win.

I have since decided that it is mostly the trigger, and secondarily the grip. All the autos I like have lever type triggers like wheelguns. I've fired other guns with plunger style triggers like the 1911, and didn't like those either. T Para-Ordnance LDA shows promise, but I ain't gonna spend the scratch to try it. I have enough handguns. Heh, speaking of that, anybody wanna buy a Shorty Forty? =)

ziadel · 01-18-2005, 06:28 PM

yeah, the Para's with the pivoting trigger might work, but if your happy where you are I ain't gonna tell you you need a .45, 10mm will do the job a lot better as long as you can control it and dont personally feel its excessive

Moonduck · 01-20-2005, 12:15 AM

The 1026 is a massive chunk of steel. It eats up felt recoil very nicely. I guess the only reason I am even thinking about it is because of how good the 1911 design is overall. It's nostalgia, or something. Luckily the price is outside my comfort range these days.

ziadel · 01-20-2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonduck

Luckily the price is outside my comfort range these days.

pfft, I've heard that before, if it goes bang you'll find a way to get it

izin · 01-21-2005, 02:01 AM

I'm a big fan of the 10mm. I love my stainless Delta Gold Cup and plan on coverting a P16 to 10mm in the near future. The FBI made the right choice when they switched to the 40 though. I've seen too many LEOs shoot and many have trouble qualifying even with their nines. The ceiling of the state patrol range is testament to that. The 10mm is a great round and the 1911A1 is an awesome platform for it. Would be a shame to see it neglected by manufacturers. Luckily Dillon has ensured my love of the 10mm will continue long past the fickleness of the public or the manufacturers.

01-16-2005, 11:35 AM	#1 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	The FBI Swat Pistol...quite a saga and a good read... http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...24/ai_57886947 What I find interesting and surprising is that Wilson could'nt puke up the same accuracy that Springfield did... while I do think that asking for 1.5" from Golden Sabre is a tall order, how Springfield did it and Wilson could not most likely has something to do with all of Wilson's talent going ino business for themselves (if you have a WIlson COmbat pistol, look at the test target that came with your gun, all the names on if have gone on to form Nighthawk Customs (http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/).. I'm still not sure what prompted the split, so if anyone knows pipe up) anyways, I found it to be a very good read, very informative. Long live the 1911. __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read. Last edited by ziadel; 01-16-2005 at 12:04 PM..

01-16-2005, 11:38 AM	#2 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	heres the peice they choose: __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

01-17-2005, 11:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	I think it's really cool that a gun so classic is still chosen as the principle firearm by law enforcement agencies. In response to the last post though, I find that Glocks (at least the uncompensated ones) are harsher to fire than pretty much any other type of pistol (.44 magnums and down that I've fired). __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato Last edited by Suave; 01-17-2005 at 11:20 PM..

01-17-2005, 11:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	whoops, Suave edited out his blasphemous High-Power comment, but I'll leave it there for anyone else who is wondering about the Hi-power... as for Glocks, well, polymer doesn't soak up recoil the same way steel does shrug and that safe action trigger crap is horrendous IMO its just the nature of the beast I guess. oh, and the 10mm, I dunno, its a lot of bang, bang that could be gotten elsewhere more easily (why buy a 10mm when you can just get a .44 and not have to hope the local store has 10mm ammo in stock?)... I just don't think it was that badly needed, hence it died... I dunno tho, I hope to own one someday, but would I carry it? most likely not. its just too much for me to safely wield... __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

01-18-2005, 06:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	yeah, the Para's with the pivoting trigger might work, but if your happy where you are I ain't gonna tell you you need a .45, 10mm will do the job a lot better as long as you can control it and dont personally feel its excessive __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

01-17-2005, 05:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Neat article. Shame that S&W dropped the ball (again) as it would've been good to hear how they did with the 945. Looks like the FBI got a nice piece. As a 10mm fan though, I'm still irritated at how the FBI destroyed the 10mm commercially by their bad press, when it was their decisions to screw with the loads that lead to the functionality problems they experienced. Yup, 10mm has a lil bit of kick. Don't expect a round with terminal ballistics along the lines of .357 magnum to not kick. Physics is not your friend in this matter. And, lastly, I will opine yet again that I wish I could like the 1911. Conceptually, I do. As a longtime gun guy, I consider it, overall, the best fighting pistol in history. My hands just can't stand em though. For some reason, the 1911 just feels about 11 sorts of wrong in my paws. When it comes to combat autos, gimme a High Power, Glock, USP, or Sig any day. Just fits me better. Shame too. Nothing shoots quite like a properly accurized 1911. Well, except for any moderately good quality revolver out of the box =) Did I mention that I grew up a wheelgunner? LOL.

01-18-2005, 01:56 PM	#11 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	On Glocks - I own a G-19. It's a sweet little semi-compact in 9mm. You don't need steel to absorb the recoil of 9mm. I don't like the creepiness of the "safe" trigger either, but the other qualities of the gun are such that I am dead-pleased with it, and would trust my life to it. I have puts tons of ammo through it, from the good stuff down to garbage so awful that I was embarrassed to clean the brass off the range floor. It tossed it all downrange without one complaint in thousands upon thousands of rounds. Glocks are ugly, but functional, wierd and creepy, but trustworthy. The G-19 also fits my hand well. It's more a case of a totally functional piece that I trust in all situations. Glocks have less muzzle flip when the magazine is full, by the way. Sucks if you're blowing ammo downrange, but for defensive shoots, it's great. High Powers - The High Power was the very first autoloading pistol I ever fired. I still remember it like it was yesterday. A buddy of mine finally got his dad to allow us to take his Chi-Com marked Viet Nam war trophy pistol to the range. The gun hadn't seen live fire in about ten years, so I gave it some good lovins with RemOil (s'what I used then) and Hoppe's #9 (what I still use). It was a beautiful gun. Silky smooth finish with grips that glowed in the afternoon sun. Took her to the range and put 300rds through it that afternoon. Wow, whatta gun. I felt like having a cigarette afterwards, and I don't smoke. To this day, I think of the High Power first whenever the phrase "combat pistol" floats across my ears. On 10mm - My 10mm is a S&W 1026. It's a full-sized, matte stainless brute with no active safety, only a decocker and passive firing pin block. When the FBI went to 10mm (in the 1076, same gun with a shorter barrel/slide), the Virginia State Police went to 10mm shortly thereafter (from .357 mag wheelguns, IIRC). When the FBI screwed 10mm, the VA State Police ditched the 10mm shortly thereafter as well. Well, those beastly 10's showed up every once in a while in gunstores hereabouts. I saw one with 3 mags and the Safariland secure holster and mag pouch for $275, so you can imagine that I jumped all over it happily. The leather alone was more than a third of the total price when new. Well, I took it to the range, bought a coupla hundred rounds of 10mm and went to town. Couldn't believe it. Here was an auto that shot just like my beloved .357 magnum. I could see why the VASP could transition so easily to it from their .357's. It was also an accurate piece, relatively. Not up to my wheelguns or a well-tuned 1911, but certainly above the average 1911 by a good measure. SUffice to say that I like it quite a bit, and like th eload even more. The 10mm is an easy round to double stack, and performs exceedingly well. The potential firepower of a double-stack 10mm is obscene in a pistol, and beats damned near every other gun hands down. My personal favourite was the full-size Tanfoglio what could hold something crazy like 19rds of 10mm. That's a lotta shooty. On double-stack 1911's - I owned a Para Ordnance P14-45. Nice gun. It had been lightly slicked up with a beavertail safety, flat spring housing, nice trigger, and nightsights. Got it for $300 and couldn't believe my fortune. Took it to the range, and was sooo disappointed. Here was a 1911 that filled my hand (your suspiscions are correct vis a vis double stack vs single stack) and shot so well, yet I still didn't like the feel. I can't win. I have since decided that it is mostly the trigger, and secondarily the grip. All the autos I like have lever type triggers like wheelguns. I've fired other guns with plunger style triggers like the 1911, and didn't like those either. T Para-Ordnance LDA shows promise, but I ain't gonna spend the scratch to try it. I have enough handguns. Heh, speaking of that, anybody wanna buy a Shorty Forty? =)

01-20-2005, 12:15 AM	#13 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	The 1026 is a massive chunk of steel. It eats up felt recoil very nicely. I guess the only reason I am even thinking about it is because of how good the 1911 design is overall. It's nostalgia, or something. Luckily the price is outside my comfort range these days.

01-21-2005, 02:01 AM	#15 (permalink)
izin Upright	I'm a big fan of the 10mm. I love my stainless Delta Gold Cup and plan on coverting a P16 to 10mm in the near future. The FBI made the right choice when they switched to the 40 though. I've seen too many LEOs shoot and many have trouble qualifying even with their nines. The ceiling of the state patrol range is testament to that. The 10mm is a great round and the 1911A1 is an awesome platform for it. Would be a shame to see it neglected by manufacturers. Luckily Dillon has ensured my love of the 10mm will continue long past the fickleness of the public or the manufacturers.