Defense against bears
 

Hello, I live in Alaska and do a fair amount of hiking and messing around in the woods. Problem is there are many a bear around here that would enjoy chewing on you if you interupt them. I am looking into purchasing a handgun to carry with me for protection against bears but am not sure what to go with. I have talked to a number of different people and their opinions vary widely; from a very high powered handgun or rifle on down. I am a fairly experienced shooter having been in the military and hunted/shot with friends but have never owned a gun myself. I am leaning towards something smaller (yet with decent stopping power) that I will actually carry with me rather than a heavy weapon that I will be less inclined to want to carry every where I go. Any advice from the TFP experts would be much appreciated... Thanks!

Just FYI the handguns I have experience with are: 9mm, 10mm, .357 & .454

Full size bear, at minimum a .357! Preferably a .50! Anything smaller wont do anything but piss em off. And use solid nose rounds. No hollow points. You need penetration when to those big thick skinned bastards are coming at you.

Ive heard stories of nearly point blank 12gauge slugs not stopping a determined bear.

If you were worried about big cats, I'd say go for a Thunder 5, I've heard good things about them, but for bears, you'll need something bigger and not buckshot. Maybe you shuld check into one of those S&W .500 Revolvers.

I live in Alaska also. I carry a S&W 629, .44 Mag and use the commercial "bear loads". After last years viewing of a rather large griz near Eureka, I am convinced that nothing is strong enough if the bear really wants you. This thing was a VW Beetle with teeth.

When shot placement can be the difference between life and death, I am more apt to recommend that you purchase a gun that you can shoot as much as possible.

As a last thought, a good 12ga with 00 then slugs is carried by more than one guide.

Definitely a rifle over a handgun. Go for .308 or bigger, semi auto, high cap mag, and absolutely reliable. If you legally have access to AP ammo, that might be good for headshots through lots of bone.

When hiking you don't want to be carrying a huge great rifle or shotgun, so you need a handgun with good stopping power. As MrSelfDestruct said, those .500 S&W revolvers really have a huge round which will help a lot, but cost a lot to buy and maintain.
Otherwise, anything from .375 up really would be my recommendation.

unleashed, what's the point in having a gun, if it's just gonna irritate the critter getting ready to eat you?

You should be able to get a decent rifle in a big enough caliber with a couple of magazines worth of ammo for 10-12 pounds. That's not a lot of weight for one of the best bits of survival gear you can have....

http://www.nitroplus.co.jp/pc/rankin...ge/shotgun.jpg

That should do ya.

Revolver, .41 Magnum or greater. Preferable something in the .44M, .480Ruger, .454Casull, .475 Linebaugh range. This thing needs to be able to penetrate into the skull or spine and cause instant death or incapacitation. Rifles are always your best bet, but in your situation a big, powerful revolver is probably more practical. Whatever you do, do NOT use AP or other "standard solid" shot. If you must have a solid, go for something like a Garret Bearhammer, Trophy-bonded Bearclaw, or Monolithic Solid. You need something that will cause massive tissue damage and create maximum frontal surface upon impact.
My personal reccomendation would be one of the big S&W heavy revolvers, such as a Model 29, Model 629, or even the Model 500 if you can afford it. If it's a .41 or .44, load it with Barnes X-Rounds: these will give you the penetration of a solid, but will expand to almost 2' frontal upon impact. In the Model 500, go for the 420-grain softnose projectiles.
The big, BIG thing is this: if a bear charges you, the ONLY workable shots are to the head or the spine above the shoulders. Nothing else will stop that Kodiak NOW. Even if you sever the spine below the shoulders it will keep coming, and it'll still have 2 working paws. Heart/lung/shoulder shots will kill it, but it'll take time you won't have. Whatever weapon you pick needs to be one that you can make those shots with in a HURRY.

I've got no experience hunting bear, but understand that due to the massive nature of their bone structure, a headshot with an expanding projo will generally be ineffective, since it will most likely not penetrate the skull and will irritate the bear. I've seen lead buckshot conform to but not penetrate a deer's skull, which is much thinner than a bear's skull. An icepick through the brainpan is better than a deformed bullet that doesn't penetrate the skull. See what I mean?

Anybody got a legally possessed bear skull we can test this theory out on?

I bought a Marlin Guide Gun (carbine length lever action) in 4570gvt for the express purpose of fending off animal attacks when backpacking. Granted, it's heavier than a pistol, but on the other hand: it's more fun to shoot than a big bore pistol (and therefore more useful to me), and it can be easily slung unlike a pistol (I've never tried carrying a large holstered pistol while hiking/backpacking but I don't imagine I'd want to).


B.

Thanks for the advice guys...
I agree. I think that with most good size bears you are not going to completely stop them with anything that you would want to regularly carry hiking. A man shot a bear a few weeks ago in Anchorage while walking his dog... he got 5 shots into it with a .44 revolver and was able to stop it, but still didn't kill it.. Article

Another reason I was looking into something smaller. I shot my brother in law's .454 that he carrys as a bear gun a few times and after 6 shots or so my arm was so tired I could barely shoot it anymore. Not to mention the fact that it is so heavy I think I would have a hard time drawing it and aiming it fast enough to be effective. AND it would be expensive to practice with.

Maybe I just need to quit complaining and go with something of size (bigger is always better afterall ;) )

Thanks for all of the good advice!

Daswig:
A good controlled-expansion round from a .41 Mag or greater pistol round will most definitely penetrate the skull of a Grizz. Buckshot is much smaller, lighter, slower, and carries less kinetic energy.
Hollowpoint rounds designed for anti-personnel work should most definitely NOT be used, as these will fragment upon contact and will not instantly incapacitate the bear. However, a Barnes X-Round or other suitable heavyweight CE round will do the trick.

A "standard solid" ball-round will not transmit sufficiant energy to instantly kill: a Kodiak about 18 months ago took 7 shots from a 7mm H&H Magnum, including two consecutive headshots, and did not go down: this was later attributed to the fact that the non-expanding rounds did not destroy enough brain tissue to kill instantly. A good expanding round or large-diameter Monolithic Solid is what's needed here. ( "Large-diameter" here means .44 on up. Anything smaller needs to be the hottest CE round you can find ).

My Uncle Robert guided Bear and Caribou hunts in Alaska and BC for 8 years and I contacted him before replying to this. He's dropped 5 Grizz in his days, all with largebore handguns or rifles firing CE and Mono. Solid shot. He won't even touch anything else.

Thanks for the info. I'll still stick with my MG-34....it may be a real pain to carry, but I've yet to ever hear of a bear that got shot in the face with 250 rounds of 7.92 Mauser in 15 seconds and kept coming....

I still think you're NUTS if you try to play with a bear with a handgun, regardless of how big it is.

Sometimes almost as important as the caliber is the gun itself. I own 3 different 44 mags and I handload. The handloads that I'm comfortable with in my Ruger Redhawk I would never run through my Model 29

Another vote here for the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I have an Alaskan CoPilot, a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun modified by Jim West of Wild West Guns. It is a takedown, and he is able to do quite a few other great mods. A little pricey, but they are real beauties.

You can peruse his site here: www.wildwestguns.com

The WWG conversions are lovely, but $2000 for a raced up version over a $500 rifle? :eek:

Don't get me wrong, if I had money to burn, I'd be all over it.


B.

LOL! Agreed....and I DID say pricey! Of course, they ARE raced up! He has added more and more options over the years, so there is a bit more there and a tad more variety in price. I can tell you though that the fully "raced up" CoPilot is certainly worth it!

Wouldn't you just want something loud to scare them off? If not .50 Desert Eagle.

My advice is to be elsewhere.

OK I don't have much gun knowledge, but wouldn't a nice little Desert Eagle be enough to stop any bear ? I heard it can stop a car doing 50mph....

A .50AE coming out of a Desert Eagle couldn't stop a human moving at 25mph, let alone a car at 50. Bullets simply don't transfer enough kinetic energy to toss large (ie, bigger than a german shepherd) creature back from its ballistic path. Not outside of cinema, anyway.

:D


B.

Pack a S&W model 629 or 29 can't remember which, with a 4" barrel , it's small and packs a wallop , you don't really want to lug around a rifle, by the time you bring the darn thing to "bear" you'll be bear feed, get yourself a chest rig because you'll have a hard time pulling anything from your hip holster with a huge backpack on ya. I think Taurus makes a good copy of the model 29 in titanium=even lighter weight. Shoot the thing , then run your ass off.

Thanks for the info, I'll read my action/thriller books with a more critical eye when it comes to guns now. I think my friend is gonna take me to a shooting range, which might give me some gun knowledge and a first hand "feel" of how it is to shoot a gun. We're starting with rifles, and from there we go to 12 gauge shottys...sounds like fun.

Yeah, or a .50.

Just keep this in mind:

Bears can climb trees and run damned fast.

If you need to run from a bear, pray that there's a handy hill, run down as fast as you can manage. If you lived right, the bear will start tumbling and you'll live.

That's why I try not to go out without a vehicle. With a vehicle, you can drive faster than the bear, and there's a place to put your pintle-mount so your gun doesn't get too heavy.

Bells! We hike in National Forest frequently and unless you want to run up on them I suggest some dollar store bells attacked to your pack.

Reminds me of the old joke: How can you identify bear scat from other forms of scat? They smell like pepper and are filled with bells.

What he said.

We also tell the people with small auto's to file the front sight off. So it doesn't hurt as bad when the bear shoves it up their ass.

Best anti-bear weapon: http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles/rifles_82A1.htm

Or, if you need something lighter: http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles/rifles_95.htm

There's some good comedy in this thread, including most of what dawsig has posted, but this takes the cake. Could you imagine some asshole, fresh out of the gun shop with his new DE .50, thinking he is a BMF, decides to walk into the street and try to stop the next car to come along? Fucking hysterical. :lol:

Bears: There are plenty of good guns if you're hunting them, not too many that are effective in a defense situation though. You wanna pack something small, easily carried and drawn? No such thing. If you're out in bear country, be noisy. Tie bells to shoe laces, sing while you hike, just make some damn noise. Bears don't like noise. They WILL avoid you if they know you're there. People get attacked by bears when they surprise them. If you must get a gun, I'd say .50 Beowulf on an AR15 platform, 'cause it's so badass.

Well TECHCNICALLY, if you shot the driver in the face through the windshield, you'd have a good chance of stopping it.

I took my Marlin .45/70 into my favorite custom shop about 3 years ago and had them shorten the barrell to 12 inches in shorten the loading tube to the same, I get almost the same muzzle velocity and it's a nice short size. Little bit less accurate out past 50 meters but then... it's .45/70 so I never used it for long shots anyway. nothings beats 500 grain flat noses.

Take along someone who runs slower than you.

OK, sorry, but i did point out that i did NOT know a lot about guns, and that was what I had heard. no need to make fun of my stupidity or anything. well maybe im taking it like that cuz u wrote the word "asshole" or w/e..
lol after second thought maybe i had a rough day and i took your non personal remark as a personal mocking. OK. fine. forget what i said.

There's always hand grenades.... :)

just as long as you realize I was being funny....

After downing moose we usually have one guy stand guard while the other guy dresses the animal. Unfortunatly bears think that gunshots are dinner bells. Black bears are no big deal IMO, it's grizzly's that I'm concerened about.
In Canada you can't carry a hand gun while in the bush, so a big can of bear spray and a rifle is all you can carry. A shotgun with 00 followed buy slugs is a good way to go.

If hiking, make loud noises while paying attention to surrounding sounds is what I do.