Question for those of you who carry, concealed or otherwise. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MooseMan3000 · 08-28-2004, 05:09 PM

So I read this thread, http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=1#post1377983 , and I was reminded of a discussion I had with a friend a while back.

This friend and I were filming a movie that involved handguns, so we bought BB pistols that *kind of* resembled real handguns. In my opinion, anyone who is familiar with handguns would know the difference between the guns we had and real guns (these were not Airsoft guns, modeled after real handguns. They had enormous handles to cock the spring with). The point was not to make it look realistic, the point was to have something in our hands.

Anyway. We were filming one scene in a local parking garage. We had informed the police, so as not to worry them with any calls or reports. However, my friend's dad didn't think that was enough. He is an NRA member, and he carries concealed. He said we should get professionally made signs to post all around the garage to inform everyone that we were filming a movie. His rationale was this: "If I saw you pointing a gun at someone, I would shoot you." And he was absolutely serious. I believe he would shoot someone on sight if they were pointing a gun at another person, absolutely regardless of context.

So my question is this. If you came across this situation, how would you react? Would anyone else just shoot, like he would?

If I carried concealed, the first thing I would do is call the police, then I would take a moment to look at the situation to see where I could best help. If I thought that one person was in imminent danger, I would first draw my weapon, then I would make my presence known. I absolutely would not shoot anyone until I knew exactly what was going on.

Edit: I found a picture of the model pistol we were using. It wasn't chromed, like this one, but more of a grey.

Or alternatively, this one, minus the barrel extension and fiber optic sight (heh, fiber optic sight for a gun that's accurate to about 15 feet.) This one is the correct color.

Xell101 · 08-28-2004, 07:19 PM

I'd rather err on the side of not harming anyone.

KirStang · 08-28-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xell101

I'd rather err on the side of not harming anyone.

Agreed. Would suck to shoot someone, only to find out that him (or her) were playing around with wooden sticks that looked like guns.

Anybody who immediately takes out their gun and fires without warning is just looking for something to shoot.

MSD · 08-28-2004, 09:32 PM

If you drive into a parking garage and see someone from fifty feet away, ir's going to look more like this

<img src="http://www.marksman.com/2005_apistol.gif" width="35">

Are you still sure it isn't real?

Regardless of that, anyone who shoots on sight simply because of a gun's presence, is overreacting and will eventually hurt someone out of carelessness.

Dostoevsky · 08-28-2004, 09:51 PM

OK, I'm an NRA member and an armed citizen who FREQUENTLY carryies concealed.

First of all, your friends dad would be completely fucked if he shot someone in the situation you described above. He has the right to protect HIMSELF from bodily harm with a firearm. Not play hero in the parking lot.

That being said, he does not have the right to interfere in a situation between two strangers when he has no idea what the context of the altercation is. He only has the right to protect his own physical well being.

If he was in the general area of the assailant then he could shoot them and say that he felt endangered when they pulled their gun and started aiming it around. That would be OK. But you can't just shoot someone having an altercation with someone else, that's not OK, especially when he doesn't have any context.

He probably just wanted to seem like a toughguy in front of you guys.

On a side note, you may not be aware that it is completely illegal to use lethal force on someone in order to protect your property. That's right, you can't shoot someone unless you perceive a them as posing a threat to your life. I think it's called reciprical force or something.

MrTuffPaws · 08-29-2004, 12:40 AM

Unless my life is or my love ones is in danger, no need to draw. So, what happens when some undercover cop draws on someone? Is your friends dad going to shoot the cop too?

scout · 08-29-2004, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dostoevsky

On a side note, you may not be aware that it is completely illegal to use lethal force on someone in order to protect your property. That's right, you can't shoot someone unless you perceive a them as posing a threat to your life. I think it's called reciprical force or something.

I think that rule applies everywhere but Texas. In Texas it's perfectly legal to use deadly force to protect your property, unless they have changed that law in the last year or two. Example being if you awoke in the middle of the night and heard someone outside breaking into your vehicle and you thought they was stealing, you could shoot them. So don't go stealing shit in Texas.

basmoq · 08-29-2004, 10:22 AM

I'm movin to Texas!

tropple · 08-29-2004, 11:17 AM

If you pointed it at me, I'd drop you.

Keep in mind how much the eye has to adapt when moving from sunlight/overcast to shade or indoor lighting. What you see after standing there for several minutes differs from what someone just coming in from outside might see.

It's always better to be safe. The signs were a very good idea.

hrdwareguy · 08-30-2004, 02:51 PM

As others have stated, you have the right to protect yourself. You may walk up on a situation where person A has a gun pulled on person B. You drop person A. Person B takes off running. The cops show up and now inform you that you are under arrest for shooting an undercover officer and the person you just helped escape is serial rapist/murder.

Sounds like your friends dad is looking to get his permit revoked. With that same mentality, your friends dad could drop a crook in a convience store, I walk in not knowing the situation and then drop your friends dad for no reason.

Cadwiz · 08-31-2004, 10:16 AM

I would have to watch what was happening before I ever thought of drawing. And then, I would probably give them a verbal warning/instruction before firing.

Lebell · 09-01-2004, 01:17 PM

Very tricky situation.

I would think that it would be an affirmative defense IF a person that shot someone could reasonably demostrate to someone that they thought another person was in mortal danger.

NOW, if there is a bunch of people filming, lights, etc, then I think the DA could say that it wasn't reasonable.

ON the other hand, if you came upon this scene in the dark, maybe.

In any case, I would damn well make sure I knew what the score was before I opened up, even if I saw you with a "gun".

As has been stated, you could be responding to a robbery, a rape, etc. with your own gun and I don't know it.

joellp · 09-08-2004, 08:51 AM

For what it's worth, I have a concealed carry license in Texas. Couple of comments: you should always be 1000% sure that you fully understand the situation prior to taking action. You should never be so cavalier as to say you would automatically shoot someone in that situation. BUT, in Texas you do have the right to protect a third part in that situation:

PC §9.33.

Defense of Third Person

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

Also, you can only use deadly force to protect your property under the following situations:

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

hrdwareguy · 09-08-2004, 10:19 AM

There have been cases where undercover cops have been shot by uniformed cops because the uniforms didn't know who the undercovers were.

Case in point, a white New York subway cop in uniform shot a black undercover cop while the undercover cop had his gun drawn and was making an arrest. New policy for undercovers is that if the gun comes out so does the shield so you hopefully won't get shot by a uniformed cop.

Bryndian_Dhai · 09-18-2004, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

I think that rule applies everywhere but Texas.

And Louisiana.... well, Louisiana has a law that allows a person to protect themselves with a gun if they are threatened with carjacking. It passed several years ago and someone used it successfully not two months (I think... it was very soon) after it was passed when she shot two guys trying to steal her car. The proviso is that you must be IN the car when it is jacked for it to apply.

Bryn

gcbrowni · 09-18-2004, 06:50 PM

What you site in Louisiana is really just a specific case of a more generalized rule: if threatened with force you may respond in kind. You would probabally be free to respond if you were outside the car and they threatened you with force.

Arson and, I believe, rape, fall in to the same catagory.

DelayedReaction · 09-18-2004, 09:54 PM

To go back to the original question, if I was at that far of a distance I would run the hell away and call the cops. My job is not to be a hero, it's to get out alive.

daswig · 10-10-2004, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dostoevsky

He has the right to protect HIMSELF from bodily harm with a firearm. Not play hero in the parking lot.

That being said, he does not have the right to interfere in a situation between two strangers when he has no idea what the context of the altercation is. He only has the right to protect his own physical well being.

This varies by state. The majority rule is that you CAN use lethal force to defend the life of another. Been There, Done That.

bainatl · 10-15-2004, 10:14 AM

I carry concealed always. In Georgia, a carry permit is worded so that no matter what, if you fuck up, you can be charged. I am a former cop and would never draw down on a situation that didn't directly threaten me or my family. Cowboy heroism is for the wide open spaces, not parking garages in Buckhead.

08-28-2004, 05:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
MooseMan3000 wouldn't mind being a ninja. Location: Maine, the Other White State.	Question for those of you who carry, concealed or otherwise. So I read this thread, http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=1#post1377983 , and I was reminded of a discussion I had with a friend a while back. This friend and I were filming a movie that involved handguns, so we bought BB pistols that kind of resembled real handguns. In my opinion, anyone who is familiar with handguns would know the difference between the guns we had and real guns (these were not Airsoft guns, modeled after real handguns. They had enormous handles to cock the spring with). The point was not to make it look realistic, the point was to have something in our hands. Anyway. We were filming one scene in a local parking garage. We had informed the police, so as not to worry them with any calls or reports. However, my friend's dad didn't think that was enough. He is an NRA member, and he carries concealed. He said we should get professionally made signs to post all around the garage to inform everyone that we were filming a movie. His rationale was this: "If I saw you pointing a gun at someone, I would shoot you." And he was absolutely serious. I believe he would shoot someone on sight if they were pointing a gun at another person, absolutely regardless of context. So my question is this. If you came across this situation, how would you react? Would anyone else just shoot, like he would? If I carried concealed, the first thing I would do is call the police, then I would take a moment to look at the situation to see where I could best help. If I thought that one person was in imminent danger, I would first draw my weapon, then I would make my presence known. I absolutely would not shoot anyone until I knew exactly what was going on. Edit: I found a picture of the model pistol we were using. It wasn't chromed, like this one, but more of a grey. Or alternatively, this one, minus the barrel extension and fiber optic sight (heh, fiber optic sight for a gun that's accurate to about 15 feet.) This one is the correct color. Last edited by MooseMan3000; 08-28-2004 at 05:20 PM..

08-29-2004, 10:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
basmoq It's a girly girl! Location: OH, USA	I'm movin to Texas! __________________ "There's someone out there for everyone - even if you need a pickaxe, a compass, and night goggles to find them."

08-29-2004, 11:17 AM	#9 (permalink)
tropple Junkie	If you pointed it at me, I'd drop you. Keep in mind how much the eye has to adapt when moving from sunlight/overcast to shade or indoor lighting. What you see after standing there for several minutes differs from what someone just coming in from outside might see. It's always better to be safe. The signs were a very good idea. __________________ +++++++++++Boom!

08-30-2004, 02:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
hrdwareguy "Officer, I was in fear for my life" Location: Oklahoma City	As others have stated, you have the right to protect yourself. You may walk up on a situation where person A has a gun pulled on person B. You drop person A. Person B takes off running. The cops show up and now inform you that you are under arrest for shooting an undercover officer and the person you just helped escape is serial rapist/murder. Sounds like your friends dad is looking to get his permit revoked. With that same mentality, your friends dad could drop a crook in a convience store, I walk in not knowing the situation and then drop your friends dad for no reason. __________________ Gun Control is hitting what you aim at Aim for the TFP, Donate Today

09-01-2004, 01:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Very tricky situation. I would think that it would be an affirmative defense IF a person that shot someone could reasonably demostrate to someone that they thought another person was in mortal danger. NOW, if there is a bunch of people filming, lights, etc, then I think the DA could say that it wasn't reasonable. ON the other hand, if you came upon this scene in the dark, maybe. In any case, I would damn well make sure I knew what the score was before I opened up, even if I saw you with a "gun". As has been stated, you could be responding to a robbery, a rape, etc. with your own gun and I don't know it. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-28-2004, 07:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	I'd rather err on the side of not harming anyone.

08-28-2004, 09:32 PM	#4 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	If you drive into a parking garage and see someone from fifty feet away, ir's going to look more like this <img src="http://www.marksman.com/2005_apistol.gif" width="35"> Are you still sure it isn't real? Regardless of that, anyone who shoots on sight simply because of a gun's presence, is overreacting and will eventually hurt someone out of carelessness.

08-28-2004, 09:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Dostoevsky Psycho Location: Macon, GA	OK, I'm an NRA member and an armed citizen who FREQUENTLY carryies concealed. First of all, your friends dad would be completely fucked if he shot someone in the situation you described above. He has the right to protect HIMSELF from bodily harm with a firearm. Not play hero in the parking lot. That being said, he does not have the right to interfere in a situation between two strangers when he has no idea what the context of the altercation is. He only has the right to protect his own physical well being. If he was in the general area of the assailant then he could shoot them and say that he felt endangered when they pulled their gun and started aiming it around. That would be OK. But you can't just shoot someone having an altercation with someone else, that's not OK, especially when he doesn't have any context. He probably just wanted to seem like a toughguy in front of you guys. On a side note, you may not be aware that it is completely illegal to use lethal force on someone in order to protect your property. That's right, you can't shoot someone unless you perceive a them as posing a threat to your life. I think it's called reciprical force or something.

08-29-2004, 12:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
MrTuffPaws Addict Location: NorCal	Unless my life is or my love ones is in danger, no need to draw. So, what happens when some undercover cop draws on someone? Is your friends dad going to shoot the cop too?

08-31-2004, 10:16 AM	#11 (permalink)
Cadwiz Insane Location: work	I would have to watch what was happening before I ever thought of drawing. And then, I would probably give them a verbal warning/instruction before firing.

09-08-2004, 08:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
joellp Upright	For what it's worth, I have a concealed carry license in Texas. Couple of comments: you should always be 1000% sure that you fully understand the situation prior to taking action. You should never be so cavalier as to say you would automatically shoot someone in that situation. BUT, in Texas you do have the right to protect a third part in that situation: PC §9.33. Defense of Third Person A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if: (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person. Also, you can only use deadly force to protect your property under the following situations: (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

09-08-2004, 10:19 AM	#14 (permalink)
hrdwareguy "Officer, I was in fear for my life" Location: Oklahoma City	There have been cases where undercover cops have been shot by uniformed cops because the uniforms didn't know who the undercovers were. Case in point, a white New York subway cop in uniform shot a black undercover cop while the undercover cop had his gun drawn and was making an arrest. New policy for undercovers is that if the gun comes out so does the shield so you hopefully won't get shot by a uniformed cop. __________________ Gun Control is hitting what you aim at Aim for the TFP, Donate Today

09-18-2004, 06:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
gcbrowni Tilted Location: Indianapolis	What you site in Louisiana is really just a specific case of a more generalized rule: if threatened with force you may respond in kind. You would probabally be free to respond if you were outside the car and they threatened you with force. Arson and, I believe, rape, fall in to the same catagory. __________________ From the day of his birth Gilgamesh was called by name.

09-18-2004, 09:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	To go back to the original question, if I was at that far of a distance I would run the hell away and call the cops. My job is not to be a hero, it's to get out alive. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

10-15-2004, 10:14 AM	#19 (permalink)
bainatl Upright Location: The Conch Republic	I carry concealed always. In Georgia, a carry permit is worded so that no matter what, if you fuck up, you can be charged. I am a former cop and would never draw down on a situation that didn't directly threaten me or my family. Cowboy heroism is for the wide open spaces, not parking garages in Buckhead. __________________ I was just supposed to go down to Buckhead and get a paper, next thing I knew, I was on I-75, headed for Florida!