Curved swords vs straight swords

[Lunchbox7]

Im wondering, in regards to physics what is the advantage of a curved sword over a straight sword or vice versa? I am refering only to slashing swords and not purely thursting swords. Any ideas?

[shakran]

a curved blade is less likely to get stuck in your victim because the curve helps push the blade out. A straight blade will make a deeper cut but it's more likely to get stuck in a bone.

A straight blade is usually double edged, making it easier to slash from all angles. A curved blade is usually single edged.

[kel]

Curved swords can be slightly easier to remove from the scabbard. Helpful if you want to unsheath your weapon and strike in one smooth motion.

[kwoodmex]

You learn something new every day, I just clicked in this thread because the title sparked my interest. Now I know if I want to strike quickly and not have to worry about getting stuck, I need to equip myself with a curved sword. Interesting

[MrTuffPaws]

A straight blade will make a deeper cut but it's more likely to get stuck in a bone.

I have an issue with this. A straight blade will smash the victim, while a curved blade will cause the blade to cut deeper. Case in point, the samurai sword, the scimitar and the kukri. All three are legendary cutters.

The straight blades of the west were developed as mainly piercing weapons because of the armor that they had to defeat.

[Lunchbox7]

The traditional english long sword was straight but wasnt designed for piercing.

I was thinking that maybe a sharp blade would rely my on slicing rather than wacking to instill its damage thus a curved blade might do more damage. A dull blade would need to get as much force into the hit as possible. If a curved blade was used some of the force would be lost as it would be pushed out instead of straight into the target. Therefor the better the make of the weapon the more you should go for a curved blade. Any thoughts on this?

[Asuka{eve}]

I think i heard this from the history channel straight swords were made to cleave.

[shakran]

Originally posted by MrTuffPaws
I have an issue with this. A straight blade will smash the victim, while a curved blade will cause the blade to cut deeper. Case in point, the samurai sword, the scimitar and the kukri. All three are legendary cutters.

The straight blades of the west were developed as mainly piercing weapons because of the armor that they had to defeat.

WHICH samauri sword? The curved one or the straight one? when most people think of samauri swords, they lump ninja swords in the same category. Ninja swords were straight, katanas were curved.

plus, katanas are not curved very much at all - nothing like a scimitar.

A straight blade will not smash any more than a curved blade the two blades are equally sharp, but a curved blade will deflect off bone better which makes it less likely to get caught in one.

[Fire]

First, the info that I am presenting comes from my personal experience as a professional sword merchant, from my experience as a sword smith, and from my years of experience with european and eastern martial arts- this debate has gone on for many years, and will, I am sure, continue- up untill the end of the sword as a battlefield weapon shortly before world war one, everyone that had any vested interest was still trying to build "the ultimate sword"
ultimately it has broken down to the realization that no one blade can do it all, and a series of specialized weapons and compromise pieces- as to the superiority of one type of blade for cutting, that depends on the type of cut- curved swords excell at draw cuts, where the blade is moving backwards or forewards as well as slashing through- a purely straight blade is good for a shear cut , or straight chop, but overall not a great cutter- In the tests that I have conducted, on nearly 50 different swords, a slightly curved blade, like a katana will cut deeper and more effectively than a straight blade- we test on a variety of substances, from a large stump, to tree branches, to heavy carpet tubes, to two by fours- we try to run a sampling to get a fair idea of how the stuff that we make and order for resale performs under realistic conditions- the straight blade will cut fairly well, but if it encounters a bone it will tend to shear it, or break it, while the curved blade will tend to slash through it more cleanly- really it has to do with angles and physics- and this is why every slashing impliment from a machete to a katana tends to have a slight curve to it- it is simply better at slashing, as milenia of experience have shown- too much curvature is not a good thing, as it will tend to skate off, as shakran mentioned, instead of bite deep- the scimitar, mentioned above, is and always was a horsemans weapon- many horsemans swords exhibt a deeper curve (you see this in 1800's calvary weapons as well) to help them slide past, even if they skate off some, as it is vital to prevent them from binding and being wrenched out of the users hand on a ride by attack- Knights swords avoided this for the most part as they always were geared to fight other knights, and had to contend with heavier armor, and toward the end tended to drop swords altogether in favor of picks and maces and hammers- a straight sword can be made to cut better if it starts with a sufficiently wide blade and tapers sharply- or if it compensates with a broader blade and consequentialy more weight- but this still will not generaly overtake a blade with a slight curve, provided both are well made and equally sharp.

[Lunchbox7]

Fire that was awsome. Thanks. Curious about you profession. Do you ever get asked to make weapons that dont conform to the traditional types eg batleth (star trek blade)? Does it pay well? Where did you learn how to do it all? What is your favourite melee weapon? etc

[shakran]

Good post Fire! Any Chen katana discounts for TFP members?


Lunchbox: I saw a bat'letH in a martial arts supply shop once. Turns out the owner is a huge star trek fan - even comes to work in Klingon armor and makeup sometimes, which makes him a certified weirdo - so he started selling them. Disappointing thing, though. It was made out of aluminum, (obviously) not sharp, and didn't even look right because of the oxidation layer on the aluminum - too dull.

[Fire]

I'll try to answer in sequence- as to my profession, I own and run a company here in missouri- We sell just about every type of knife, sword, and edged tool/ weapon you can think of- my basic idea has been to provide the best gear for the money that I can, so we deal in fine functional weapons for those that need em, and costuming and deco pieces that are frankly useless in real life- i just make it a point of pride that every customer knows what their purchase is and is not capable of, hence the interest in ludicrous ammounts of testing- I see far too many other dealers selling junk as "functional " and "battle ready" and this realy irks me- one dissapointed customer gives us all a bad name, and most will react better if you just tell it to em straight anyway. I got my start at a small ren faire, and that has shaped what I do now, so as far as events I do mainly ren faires, sci-fi cons, etc.- so when we (I currently have a part time three man crew that does custom stuff, including myself) got into the custom market it was at first just aimed at swords for re-enactors, and a lot of blunted stage stuff for the inappropriately named, "live steel market"- We have since branched into some stuff for a few Kali practitioners, and some stuff that is definately in the "wierd " category- I have a client that wants the "buster sword" from final fantasy- and never mind that he would never be able to lift it.- as to the pay- for most it is one of those jobs that you realy have to love- and you have to love knives to know them well enough to do it well and ever have hope of it becomming a decent living- but I guess I do, and it has been fairly good to me, if somewhat nerve wracking at first- as to learning to do knives and swords, there are tons of books out there, some better than others- I recomend anything by wayne goddard, a mastersmith with the ABS- and the complete metalsmith by tim mcreight- the book that started me off was by a guy named David Boye, titled step by step knifemaking- that one is so far the best beginners guide I have ever seen.... beyond that expect a lot of trial and error, burns, cuts and abrasions- I made my first knife at 14- and am now pushing 27- and at this point consider myself "ok" at making blades.
as for personal favorites, it tends to change based on what I have around to play with- old standbys that I always come back to are my CAS Iberia templars thrusting sword, my MRL Falchion,
any of the assorted battle axes that I have built, and the short sword I built to keep beside my bed, next to the pistol (not the best neighborhood)
on the bat'leth, I have access to a stainless steel version, 48" overall, that I used to stock, and took to some shows- quit doing so, because the damned thing was without any kind of sheath, and incredibly sharp- and most of the "klingon " groups I have dealt with will not allow metal weapons other than the aluminum ones- just wasnt worth the hassle of carting em around- would be neat to find one out of carbon steel though

As to discounts Shakran, hell yeah- Don't have a site to "plug" as of yet, (nor would I trespass in the house of the Hal) but when I do (soon, hopefuly)i will have to talk to Halx about advertising here- for now pm me and I will send you my e-mail so we can start confabing on that.

[Kewpie Dan]

i have read that the curved blade is also better for slashing because the curvature allows the edge to stay in contact throughout the entire stroke.

Either way, straight or curved, i'd rather not get cut in the first place...

[redarrow]

I would think that a curved sword could slide off a enemy's sword block more easily so it would be easier to dodge a block and stab the enemy.

[Fire]

Kewpie dan- yes, thats the physics part that makes a slight curve better for slashes- it allows what I have heard called a living cut- the edge moves along the surface being cut as it shears through...

Redarrow- that can be a factor, but every style and sword design is slightly different, it is however a fact that a thrust/stab with a thrusting weapon takes a shorter time to connect, and less space to use- thrusts are also more likely to be fatal due to increased chances of puncturing vital organs, and the fact that puncture wounds of this type tend to occur on the torso, where a less than perfect hit can prove deadly- all bets are however off if you take a katana stroke to the neck......this kind of thing being the reason that everyone designing swords back when they were in use was always trying to build a better mousetrap

[bltzkriegmcanon]

I personally like katanas, they reek of badass, and seem pretty effective. But, it depends on how you define "effective." I mean, both types of weaps can be used for the killing of many things, but a katana carries a spirit of badass that I just don't feel with a straight, broad sword.

[Dizzet]

Well the Best Weapon is a katana its light its is curved mening it cuts its very sharp( so when its cuts the blood vains will be wide open and the blood will just piss out) Plus its only shap on one side wich is very effictive when you want to fight fast just keep the sharp edge turned away from youer self....

[stevie667]

the sword of choice would also depend on the person using it.

for instance, a bastard sword is deadly in the hands of a person with the musculature to weild it properly, if you've ever seen rememants of medievil armour there are some instances of people being cloven in two from the shoulder to the waist across the torso in one slashing stroke.
however, a bastard sword is useless if you are of a lighter frame, or plan on using speed. a curved sword is usually lighter and smaller, better for quick slashing motions that can disable an enemy so you can get onto the next. a slash across the body is going to disable most enemies, and it doesn't really matter that they're not immediatly dead when they have a 2' gash in them, because it's going to happen pretty soon after.
it all really depends on your fighting style, whether you like to go in with brute force and just hack you enemy to death, or get in a fencing match (at the extremes).

however, the fun comes in when you get semi-curved long swords (think elf from LOTR). All the power and strength of a larger sword, with the subtle curve that gives it that little bit more ease to slash and parry.

[Dizzet]

Yes but a large sword is diffecult to fight with in battel not if its a man ageinst man fight the its jus one slash and he is dead... But if you have enemys around you its the katana you have to use ( when you fight with a katana you fight i cirkels and its a deadly weapon if many is around you ) and if you want to block a lager sword with a katana you just use youer body.. you can block heavy thing by laying the katans non sharp edge up youer arm then the arm will take some of the punch and you still have the katana in youer hands

[Otaku]

Originally posted by Dizzet
Yes but a large sword is diffecult to fight with in battel not if its a man ageinst man fight the its jus one slash and he is dead... But if you have enemys around you its the katana you have to use ( when you fight with a katana you fight i cirkels and its a deadly weapon if many is around you ) and if you want to block a lager sword with a katana you just use youer body.. you can block heavy thing by laying the katans non sharp edge up youer arm then the arm will take some of the punch and you still have the katana in youer hands

trying to block a guy with a two handed weapon is a very silly idea.

There is a reason shields went out of fashion. That is the simple fact that even a shield cannot stand up to the power delivered by a guy swing a two handed weapon.

A simple block with a katana is not going to protect you at all

[Fire]

actualy, that is not entirely correct, shields went out of fashion for many reasons, most of them having to do with the advances in body armor and missle weapons- many shields, depending on design will in fact stand up quite nicely to a two handed swing with an axe or a sword- but with the advance of plate aromr, they simply were no longer nescessary to the upper classes, and at hte same time the lower class warriors were being exposed to more missle fire against which greater mobility was more desireable- properly made plate is nothing short of damn cool, which is why almost every manual of arms surviving from the period shows people who fighting in plate and using two handed swords using them in unconventional methods, to either spear their enemies, bash them , or using the sword to assist in wrestling the other guy to the ground- my friend who runs an SCA armor shop will gladly let you swing a two hander at one of his test pieces of Plate, and thereby demonstrate one of the reasons why shields became extrenuous-
As to blocking a sword- Yes you certainly can, by properly deflecting the blade and channeling the force appropriately- it is a basic principal of both eastern and western swordsmanship- I am however dubious of the effectiveness of the technique that dizzet is suggesting as it would seem to force the arm to absorb an awful lot of force, rather than deflecting it- I would welcome a clarification

[shakran]

One of the bad concepts people have of "blocking" a strike, whether with a weapon or empty hand, is that a block should stop the attack dead in it's tracks. You don't block a roundhouse punch by sticking an arm up and trying to stop the attacking limb instantly. That generally gets your blocking arm injured. Same with a sword/stick/whatever. you don't just stick your weapon in the way of the other weapon and try to stop it dead - your weapon may well be destroyed if you do. You, as fire said, deflect, whether armed or empty handed, causing the attacking object to glance off.

Of course, realistically the best response to an attack is to destroy the attacking limb. If they swing at you with a stick, you want to deflect it and then immediately hit their arm so they can't swing the stick again.

Kali training, btw, applies to stick, empty hand, and sword.

[Kewpie Dan]

being a purely hand to hand fighter, i would have to extrapolate on my knowledge and agree with shakran.

personally, i'm a big fucker, i weigh 230 pounds and it's mostly muscle, that being said, i will still not try to block anything by just sticking an arm up and meeting force with force. that way leads to injury, or a short career.

your best bet is to deflect the blow along a different line of force (most blocking techniques follow this principle, very few rely on being able to absorb the impact). thus, saving your limbs and taking your opponent off balance...i have a feeling that if i were to use Dizzet's blocking method i would end up with a broken arm and maybe a broken sword.

[Fire]

that was the impression that I got- looks neat in movies though

[gorilla]

who cares about physics? Curved swords look more bad ass then straight swords, good enough for me. I own one of both varieties though.

[Seer666]

Hey Fire, just have to ask, as one who works building these things, what is your take on the Katar? Myself, I love them, and would take a pair of punching daggers over a sword pretty much any day. If I had to go sword though, I would go for something like and curved. I'm talk, skinny as hell, and need to use speed to make up for low mass.

[Fire]

Katars are a neat idea, and the side bars give you some protection as well, but the one thing they lack is reach- if you can get in close they are viscious, but getting in can be a helluva trick, - one of the things some buddies and I do is practice with various padded weapons that we build, and the " two short swords " thing looks great, but its just simply a bitch to get in on a guy with a bastard sword or a two hander- or even a single handed sword for that matter- as far as weapons go though, I think they are realy a neat idea, easy to use and effective. I just wish they were easier to get- not many seem to come on the market- May have to start building em myself- as far as a narrow bladed curved sword, that can be done, but you wont cut as effectively, as the blade would almost have to be too thick to be sharpened ie the angle of the bevel would be too steep- to get a fast light blade you are better to use a wider blade out of thinner material- currently have a curved blade in stock that is 34 inches long (blade length) 2 inches wide at the base, and barely 1/8" thick- luckily it is well tempered, otherwise one hit would ruin it- as is it is like a giant razor blade- but you have to strike correctly with it, ie no glancing hits- if you hit straight on it bites deep as hell, but hit at the wrong angle and it glances right off-

[Seer666]

I know what you mean about there not being many katars on the market. Been wanting to get my hands on a pair for along time. It's just a bitch trying to find a functional pair. I've seen a couple around, but they were just cheep as hell, and I'm not talking about price either. If you do deside to start making some you'll have to PM so I can order one or two from you.

I found one or to light cruved blades that I fell in love with. Didn't have the money to get them at the time. Not to long, but Being the tall skinny bastard that I am, I have a reach advantage over most people already, so I can compensate for that. Also, when I used to play around with the SCE and ECS a bit, I found I got one other thing going for me that most people can't deal with. I'm a south paw. Fighting a lefty just screws people up, so I got pretty good at "poaching" people. Just keep knicking them in the arms and legs. Once the weapon hand is down, the rest is pretty much just pick your target. Light curved blades seem to lend themselfs to this style. Atleast for me.

[Tusko]

there's a sword/dagger (still in use as a cutting tool/dagger in that country's army) but i cant remember what it's called/where it's from.

but, the blad on the curve isnt outwards, like a cutlass/scimitar etc, it's inwards.

originally, this was because the metal was soft, and helped counter this, but the more you think of it, thats an awful deadly weapon.

it doesnt have the advantages of a typical straightsword, but the blade being "inward" means more blade in you when you cut. and, like big cat's tooth, it also helps to dig itself out...

[Ripsaw]

That would be the kukri used by the Gurkhas.

Origin: Nepal

Check this out.

[Phaenx]

Originally posted by Dizzet
Well the Best Weapon is a katana its light its is curved mening it cuts its very sharp( so when its cuts the blood vains will be wide open and the blood will just piss out) Plus its only shap on one side wich is very effictive when you want to fight fast just keep the sharp edge turned away from youer self....

I don't know about that.

I asked the director of ARMA last year and he said he always laughs when people bicker over what the best kind of sword is.

It is kind of a broad statement, there's a tool and then there's the right tool. In terms of damage though, a slashing type of weapon won't have a higher mortality rate than a thrust weapon.

If you compare the wounds and ask a doctor, he'll tell you that he'd prefer to work on someone who's been slashed with a knife rather than someone who has been stabbed and may have internal bleeding.

[Fire]

that is another good point- musashi said that to become too fond of one weapon was a grave mistake, and advocated learning every type one could, so as to have the best tool for the job- as to the thrust v.s. cut wounds issue, cutting wounds tend to be easier to treat that puncture wounds as stabbing tends to damage more internal organs- slash wounds tend to be long gashes that can be sewn- of course, that is only if the wound is not immediately fatal, and whether its a stab to the heart or off with your head, dead is dead- to that end, I once read a piece that stated that in military actions, overall piercing weapons had a worse effect on the enemy as they produced more long term fatalities, and more drain on medical resources- on actual insta- kill situations, slashing and piercing weapons were neck and neck, its just if stabbed and not killed outright you had a much better chance of dying of peritanitus four days later......

[basmoq]

I love this tread, I myself have dabbled in knive making, I just wish I had the determination Fire seems to exibit to make a living at it. must PM him some time...

[Fire]

feel free- most important thing is to belive in yourself, and get used to having a very low income, at least to start out with....I bootstrapped myself up, and am a firm beliver in doing things that way- if you start small and part time, with something else providing your regular income, with no loans to worry about, then all that it takes is time and perserverance- I am still in the early stages, having less than a year at doing this full time, but about 5 more years doing it as a weekend thing - doing it this way does take longer, but doesnt have the threat of potential disaster that comes with a small buisiness loan- it also lets you learn the hard lessons without crashing down hard- a setback is just that, not the end of the world......

[PredeconInferno]

From what I know:
Curved swords have the potential to me MUCH lighter, stronger and more fluid in motion.

Straight swords, can be larger, double edged, and allow for easier stabbing.

[striderkevin]

Straight swords are designed mostly for hacking and stabbing, while a curved sword is designed to slice things up. Curved swords require that you employ a 'push and pull' technique with your hands so that the blade stays in contact with the cutting surface for a longer period of time, making for a better cut.