Q's about Trap/Clay/skeet shooting. What's the difference? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

strife · 11-04-2003, 09:07 PM

Okay, so my friend took me out to the range a couple weeks for my first time ever shooting a real firearm. I was able to shoot a glock 22, an h&k USP compact, a match grade AR-15 with weighted barrel, other bells and whistles that I have no idea about, and a Remmington 22(LR). Then about a week later we took his 870 Remmy express (20 gauge) out. We picked up a hand thrower and started tossing clays for one another. Now, I really like shooting clays, I think it's a lot of fun. When I look up clay shooting there is trap and and skeet, I understand that skeet shooting flies out from the sides of range. Trap I'm not so sure about... What was it that I was doing?

If I wanted to persue a hobby of shooting clays what would be a good shotgun to purchase? I have read here and elsewhere http://www.shotgunworld.com that the 870 express is an excellent shotgun. I don't have a lot of money to purchase multiple shotguns at this point, so what's the difference between that and a shotgun that is a "trap" or "skeet" gun? Would it be worth it to pick one of those up? Any insight would be very much appreciated. Thanks

G5_Todd · 11-05-2003, 02:43 AM

trap is shooting on a target that goes straight out.....and skeet is launch from the side and goes out on a 45 degree ....also i think they have skimming ones...that would simulate a rabbit running along ground ......

i think thats right

homerhop · 11-05-2003, 06:03 AM

With trap shooting the shooter has a very good idea of the direction of the clay. Skeet shooting involves various traps and not knowing which one the clay will come from.
Competition shoots here consist of about 5 diffreren traps
1. DTL where the clay goes out in front of you
2. Various types of crossers
3.Cock and Hen, where two clays come out beside you and you have to shoot the orange clay first.
4. Spring and Teal, where two clays go vertically up in front of you.
5. Dropping duck, where two clays come out high over your head

You can buy a gun from a few hundred to thousands.
A trap gun weighs heavier and tends to fire that bit higher. If buying , go to a range and try a few different makes find one that feels comfortable to shoot with.
I shoot alot of clays and use a Browning GTS sporter 32in barrels m\c. This gives me the option of shooting both clays and game as it is designed to do both.
Most of the clay shooters I know have both a trap and sporter as alot of comperition shoots have a mixture of both skeet and trap shooting.
If you go to a gun dealer you should be able to pick up a good second hand Browning for about £600-£1000 pounds, dont know what that is in $.
My preference is the Browning GTS (got the stock shortened to suit me) for a sporter
For trap a Miroku38, not the one out now but the earlier version.
Beretta dont appeal to me just dont like how they handle.
Hope this is some help,it is a great pass time and I hope that you really enjoy it if you take it up

strife · 11-05-2003, 10:12 AM

Thanks a lot for your help, that cleared it up a lot. THANKS!

mtsgsd · 11-05-2003, 10:16 AM

Good advice on the guns (although I love my Beretta), but you're describing Sporting Clays, or possibly "5 stand"?

In trap, you'll be shooting from stations placed along a semi-circle that's facing trap house set in the ground 16 yards away. The clay comes out at about 55mph at a random angle within a predefined narrow arc, and at a random height. You'll shoot 5 shots from each station so that you have 5 different views of the clays. Total of 25 shots.

In Skeet, you have stations along a semi-circle again, but you have two trap houses. a "high house" at the left end, and a "low house" at the right end of the circle. You start at the left end directly underneath the window that the clay emerges from. You'll shoot one bird from the high house (overhead going away) and one from the low house (low coming toward you). Then once more with both thrown at the same time for a total of 4 shots.
This is getting long, so to make it short you move along the rest of the stations taking one shot for each house at each station untill the end where it's the same pattern you shot at station1 but in reverse. Total of 25 shots. The 25th round is an "extra" used at the end, or during the game to make up for 1 missed shot.

Sporting clays is golf for the shotgun. You're shooting a "course" with several different shooting stations with different presentations such as homerhop described. The number of variations is endless, and the number of shots per station is variable. It's meant to simulate hunting situations and is very challenging. Since the sport's invention in England in 1875(?) there have only been 4 or 5 perfect scores of 100 targets broken.

Homerhop's example sounds like another version called "5 stand". The traps are set up in different ways like he described, and there are 5 shooting stations. The targets are thrown the same way for each station, but in different orders. Each stand has a different viewpoint, so the clays appear differently as you move from stand to stand. I can't remember how many targets are shot at here, but I think it's 100?

There's more, but I think that's enough

If you're just throwing clays out in front of you with a thrower, it's generally refered to as "trap" shooting, but I don't know if there's an official name other than maybe "plinking"

BooRadley · 11-05-2003, 01:39 PM

I'm a trap shooting enthusiast but I have never went to a range with it. I have my own thrower ( $50 from a sporting goods store ) and usually take a friend, so we take turns loading and shooting clays and will shoot about 50 or 60 at a time. We vary throws, etc. and it is alot of fun and cheap.

If you want to take my route, buy either a 12 or 20 gauge gun, 20 gauge if recoil effects you. Buy a pump action shotgun, as they can hold two shells (all that is necessary for clays) and are much cheaper than double barrels. Either size shotgun is more than enough to bust up targets, and a maverick 12 gauge pump action is about $150 new.

However, if you were a dumbass like me, you'd use a 16 gauge , and pay 150% more for shells and find them in very few stores. I would STRONGLY recommend against using any gauge other than 20, as shells are more expensive and harder to find. And when you are going through 3 or 4 boxes of shells a session, you can put a hurting on your wallet real quick. For example, 100 12 gauge trap shells is $14.48 at walmart. You can't buy 16 gauge shells in the 100 pack,so you have to buy 4 boxes of 25 at $4.28 a box. See the price difference? If you did .410 shotshells, you'd be spending $9.90 for a box of 25. And 28 gauage? Um, I know of very few places on earth that sell them.

SuperMidget · 11-05-2003, 03:10 PM

Never shot trap or skeet. Too unrealistic for practice before hunting season and too expensive for blowing a saturday. Whne I shoot clays, it's usually a couple friends and I throwing with a hand thrower. Automatic throwers are nice, but you don't get the wierd throws and cool things you can make pigeons do.

As for shotguns, the Remington 870 is a beautiful gun. It's what I started shooting on and still use for pheasants. However, A few years ago when I was ready to go to a 12 ga. I bought a Browning BPS. The BPS is truly the penultimate of pump guns. Fair warning though, the BPS is so unlike any other pump gun out there. (Yes, I have shot almost every brand of pump at least three or four times and I think I am qualified to say) For instance, the BPS shoulders akward for someone used to Remington, Winchester, Mossberg, Benelli, et al. Instead of pivoting on the forearm hand, the BPS pivots on the butt-stock hand. Another thing is the bottom ejection. The shells eject out of the bottom, which necessitates a short stroke ejection to empty the chamber and load an external shell. (Can't really explain it better, but you pump only 7/8 of the way and eject the shell, but it doesn't drop one from the magazine, allowing you to place one in manually.) It drove me nuts the first few times but now, it is so much ahndier for switching shells. Especially for ducks and geese at varying ranges, it allows me to switch from BBB to dueces to 4 in less time.

But the downside of the BPS is you can get 2 870's or Winchester 1300's for the price of one BPS. (Not even going to touch Mossberg, as I absolutely hate them. I have cleaned and removed rust from quite a few of my family's and friend's shot guns. The part that pisses me off the most, is my 870 and BPS both saw worse weather without even a trace of rust. Contrary to Mossberg's vaunted marketing strategy claiming that the 500 passed the DOD exposure test. The 590 did, not the straight 500 you see in walmart, and the 590 cost more than the 870 or 1300, which both have still passed the DOD exposure test)

To sum up a long rant, The 870 is a great choice, as is the 1300. My favorite is the BPS. Benelli and Beretta are really nothing special for the extra money. There is really nothing that makes them stand out. Functionally they are identical to the 870. Mosseberg != good , but hey if you're strapped for cash they will work in a pinch. Just don't expect them to be as durable and work as well in inclement weather.

When it comes to the gauge, use your best judgement. 20 ga is always a good choice. But if you feel up to it, 12 ga is more versatile. I really don't think you should go with anything different as ammo is harder to come by and much more expensive. The only exception is 10 ga, DON'T EVEN TRY IT. (I apologize for using all caps, but this is important.) I have shot one once. It hurt like hell. Now before you accuse me of being weak, I have and still do, shoot long action magnum rounds. (Rifle shells like .300 WM, .338 WM, 7mm RM.) But that 10 ga just absolutely knocks me on my ass. Kinda of like a "Thank you sir, may I have another" type thing.

As for amunition, make sure you get Light Target loads. Heavy loads and high velocity loads hurt a hell of a lot more for someone not used to them. Stay away from steel for a while as they fall into those categories. Because steel does not have the energy absorbtion of lead, they add a little extra powder. And it kicks worse than a horse. (So says the guy that got kicked for shooting a 12 ga next to a horse)

[/end rant]

strife · 11-05-2003, 03:24 PM

Yeah, I really like the 870 express my friend has, I was taking a look at it, and the local k-mart has a 12-gauge 870 for $265...

I was also taking a look at the 870 Wingmaster Classic Trap, would it be worth it to spend roughly $500 more for that gun, or should I just stick with a 870 express?

I don't have the money to buy a couple guns right now, but if it would be worth it for me to save up, then I want to do that. But is it worth it?

Btw, thanks for all your info/help

It's a big help.

SuperMidget · 11-05-2003, 04:14 PM

The Wingmaster looks a whole lot prettier, and shoulders much nicer. The flip sid eof that is it shows wear and damage a lot easier. They really don't shoot much different, the only difference I've found is the trigger. The wingmaster has a cleaner trigger break, but that is relatively moot on a shotgun.

The choice is yours. Do you want a cleaner nicer looking gun, or do you want a cheaper version. If your going to put it through hell, I'd say go with the express, but it sounds like you're going to have it cased if you're not shooting so abuse is minimal.

So we're back at square one. The difference is a matter of appearance. do you want it now, or wait. One thing, do not buy a gun at Walmart. Go to a local gun dealer, they will be inclined to bargain and throw in extras like cleaning kits and shells to sweeten the deal. Also, if you decide to save money, wait until about january, after hunting season and dealer's are cleaning out stocks to make room for the new models and such.

DEI37 · 11-05-2003, 05:25 PM

My brother in law, me, and a friend of ours go out probably once every three weekends to shoot clays. It's a good time, we use a handthrower. I use my Mossberg 500A with a Modified choke and Winchester 2-3/4" shells loaded with 7/8 oz of 7-1/2's. I do well with this combo. If recoil effects you, DO NOT get a 20-guage. Get a 12-guage semi-automatic. The recoil from one of these is about the same as a 20g pump, bolt, or single shot. Even my 12g has little recoil with shot. Slugs are a completely different world.

The way we throw is fun. We throw the first 6 consistent, so we get a feel for the gun again, and then they're as inconsistent as you can get. That tells you if you're really good, or just lucky. Lately, I've been good! My gun holds five in the tube magazine, plus one in the chamber, for a total of six.

Our friend does alright with a similiar set up on his 20g, but does better with a 12g. The simple reasoning for this is that there is more power behind the 12g stuff, and since it's a bigger gun, you have more pellets to go to the target. I'm thinking of getting another shotgun, in semi-auto, to lessen the recoil on shooting slugs...my shoulder hates me when I do that!

I agree on going to a local gun dealer to buy ammo and the gun. Although, Wally-World CAN be a good place to get stuff. It's where I got my Savage .22LR. Guns are like anything else. Shop around...then decide.

Good luck, bud, and let us know what you get, and how you do with it.

homerhop · 11-06-2003, 01:03 AM

Do most people in America use semi's or pumps for shooting clays.
I know that in alot of shoots this side of the world they are not looked upon nicely.
Using semis for some types of trap I can under stand but pumps I cant as you have very limited time to shoot pump and shoot again.Alot of traps here fire two clays at the same time.

Rippley · 11-06-2003, 05:53 AM

I shoot a Beretta .20 gauge O&U, a Spanish .20 SBS by the name Ugartechea and a .12 SBS Holland & Holland with a monstrously long barrel. The Beretta is excellent for all day hunting beacuse its so light, but the low weight also means its a little "jumpy" for clay shooting, be it trap or skeet. The Ugar is good for pretty much everything because the small caliber allows you to carry more ammo, than if you were waltzing around with a .12. The Holland & Holland however is an awesome piece of equipment, Full on Damascus barrels, mile long barrel. I've seen my father takae mallard out of the sky at 45m with that thing! Anyway, for clay shooting, especially if you're just starting out, get a heavier gun rather than the lighter version, as it will add some stability to your shooting. And always remember: Aim to miss the the clay about 3 feet ahead, and it'll fall out of the sky every time(works for me anyway...) Have fun!!

mtsgsd · 11-06-2003, 07:33 AM

There are people who can shoot pump shotguns as fast as a semi-auto, so technically you could use either. You'll mostly see over-unders on a sporting clays range, but according to the articles I read in various places (and my coach) semi-auto's are the favorite among the pro shooters.

In my case, I use a Berreta 391 Eureka sc in 12ga. I don't know how much difference there is among the pump guns, but the 391 is tops among semi-auto IMHO because it will shoot anything from light to heavy without changing anything. Recoil isn't even noticable to me, but this is highly subjective.

For the peson wondering about the 870 Trap gun:
I have the original model and LOVE it! The recoil reducer lets you shoot the gun all day long, and it's deadly accurate. It had been out of production awhile, and this is some sort of anniversary model I hear. If you want a gun JUST for trap, go for it!

DE137: Try shooting like this: Hold the stock against your hip international style, and only shoulder the gun when the bird is in the air. Make it harder still by having someone else do a slow count to some number before you can bring up the gun. Shows you if you're mounting the gun right real quick

homerhop · 11-06-2003, 09:05 AM

Funny how we differ this side of the water. The majority of pros here and in England shoot O&U.Thats why I was wondering was it an American thing.

I shot at county level here(same as your state level)and my friend shoots international. He has a Perazzi and keeps 2 sets of barrels, but as you said these are sporting traps.

Just for getting the feel of a gun, get a 2ft piece of cardboard and draw a target in the centre.
Place it roughly 20ft from you. Mount the gun as fast as you can and fire at the centre of the target.It will give you a rough idea if you are firing left or right, to high or low.
It is not that hard a job to get the stock of the gun bent to suit your shooting and should not cost that much.

SuperMidget · 11-06-2003, 04:57 PM

I dunno, there are a lot of people who shoot single shots here in the midwest. (South Dakota) But most people use their Hunting shotguns.

When it comes to semi-autos I have only seen one I would ever buy. That was a 1950's era Belgium Browning a-5. Every other semi-auto needs to be cleaned about every half day if it sees any serious field time and harsh conditions.

I had a friend shooting a very nice and expensive Benelli auto loader. This was in December and we were walking road ditches for pheasants. As we kept getting in and out of the truck, the guns would get condensation on them. Well, we started walking and a rooster jumps up in front of us. He pulls up to shoot and guss what. His gun fired once and then wouldn't work. His gas chamber froze solid. (That just ment I got all the shooting back home...hehe) So I guess I'll just stick with my pump.

To whomever was asking if a pump was as fast as an auto-loader, if you practice enough, a pump can be faster. If you get really good, you can even beat the firing pin. Believe me, I saw that one first hand, it was insane.

strife · 11-06-2003, 09:44 PM

Would a Remington 870 Express 12 Gauge from K-mart for $265 be a bad choice?

SuperMidget · 11-06-2003, 11:35 PM

Not at all. It's a nice gun, shoots well, for the money it's damn hard to beat.

strife · 11-06-2003, 11:40 PM

So I shouldn't be a little skeptical that its comming from k-mart. Becuase it is a Remington gun...

I do think that question sounds stupid, I'd buy a ps2 at a k-mart if it was cheaper....I dunno, for some reason I can't beleive that the quality will be the same. I'm just wierd I guess.

SuperMidget · 11-07-2003, 08:20 AM

Don't worry, it'll be the same gun, it'll come in the same box with the same little green manual. More importantly the warranty will still be there. So yeah, as long as it is from one of the big name manufacturers don't worry about it.

BooRadley · 11-07-2003, 09:11 AM

It is the same gun as you buy anywhere else. Don't be skeptical, they aren't the highest quality guns in the world, but unless you are trying to shoot a slug 100 yards with a scope you ( as a first-time gun owner) can't tell the difference.

And to whomever said "If recoil effects you, buy a semi-auto in a bigger gauge"... why not buy a semi-auto in 20 gauge? Surely you wouldn't argue that it has a higher kick than a 12 gauge?

11-04-2003, 09:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
strife Insane Location: Chi-Town	Q's about Trap/Clay/skeet shooting. What's the difference? Okay, so my friend took me out to the range a couple weeks for my first time ever shooting a real firearm. I was able to shoot a glock 22, an h&k USP compact, a match grade AR-15 with weighted barrel, other bells and whistles that I have no idea about, and a Remmington 22(LR). Then about a week later we took his 870 Remmy express (20 gauge) out. We picked up a hand thrower and started tossing clays for one another. Now, I really like shooting clays, I think it's a lot of fun. When I look up clay shooting there is trap and and skeet, I understand that skeet shooting flies out from the sides of range. Trap I'm not so sure about... What was it that I was doing? If I wanted to persue a hobby of shooting clays what would be a good shotgun to purchase? I have read here and elsewhere http://www.shotgunworld.com that the 870 express is an excellent shotgun. I don't have a lot of money to purchase multiple shotguns at this point, so what's the difference between that and a shotgun that is a "trap" or "skeet" gun? Would it be worth it to pick one of those up? Any insight would be very much appreciated. Thanks __________________ You are what you love, not what loves you. strife Last edited by strife; 11-05-2003 at 10:10 AM..

11-05-2003, 02:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
G5_Todd Junkie Location: Reichstag	trap is shooting on a target that goes straight out.....and skeet is launch from the side and goes out on a 45 degree ....also i think they have skimming ones...that would simulate a rabbit running along ground ...... i think thats right __________________ "....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -General Franks

11-05-2003, 06:03 AM	#3 (permalink)
homerhop Insane Location: ÉIRE	With trap shooting the shooter has a very good idea of the direction of the clay. Skeet shooting involves various traps and not knowing which one the clay will come from. Competition shoots here consist of about 5 diffreren traps 1. DTL where the clay goes out in front of you 2. Various types of crossers 3.Cock and Hen, where two clays come out beside you and you have to shoot the orange clay first. 4. Spring and Teal, where two clays go vertically up in front of you. 5. Dropping duck, where two clays come out high over your head You can buy a gun from a few hundred to thousands. A trap gun weighs heavier and tends to fire that bit higher. If buying , go to a range and try a few different makes find one that feels comfortable to shoot with. I shoot alot of clays and use a Browning GTS sporter 32in barrels m\c. This gives me the option of shooting both clays and game as it is designed to do both. Most of the clay shooters I know have both a trap and sporter as alot of comperition shoots have a mixture of both skeet and trap shooting. If you go to a gun dealer you should be able to pick up a good second hand Browning for about £600-£1000 pounds, dont know what that is in $. My preference is the Browning GTS (got the stock shortened to suit me) for a sporter For trap a Miroku38, not the one out now but the earlier version. Beretta dont appeal to me just dont like how they handle. Hope this is some help,it is a great pass time and I hope that you really enjoy it if you take it up __________________ its evolution baby

11-05-2003, 10:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
strife Insane Location: Chi-Town	Thanks a lot for your help, that cleared it up a lot. THANKS! __________________ You are what you love, not what loves you. strife

11-05-2003, 03:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
strife Insane Location: Chi-Town	Yeah, I really like the 870 express my friend has, I was taking a look at it, and the local k-mart has a 12-gauge 870 for $265... I was also taking a look at the 870 Wingmaster Classic Trap, would it be worth it to spend roughly $500 more for that gun, or should I just stick with a 870 express? I don't have the money to buy a couple guns right now, but if it would be worth it for me to save up, then I want to do that. But is it worth it? Btw, thanks for all your info/help It's a big help. __________________ You are what you love, not what loves you. strife

11-05-2003, 10:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	Good advice on the guns (although I love my Beretta), but you're describing Sporting Clays, or possibly "5 stand"? In trap, you'll be shooting from stations placed along a semi-circle that's facing trap house set in the ground 16 yards away. The clay comes out at about 55mph at a random angle within a predefined narrow arc, and at a random height. You'll shoot 5 shots from each station so that you have 5 different views of the clays. Total of 25 shots. In Skeet, you have stations along a semi-circle again, but you have two trap houses. a "high house" at the left end, and a "low house" at the right end of the circle. You start at the left end directly underneath the window that the clay emerges from. You'll shoot one bird from the high house (overhead going away) and one from the low house (low coming toward you). Then once more with both thrown at the same time for a total of 4 shots. This is getting long, so to make it short you move along the rest of the stations taking one shot for each house at each station untill the end where it's the same pattern you shot at station1 but in reverse. Total of 25 shots. The 25th round is an "extra" used at the end, or during the game to make up for 1 missed shot. Sporting clays is golf for the shotgun. You're shooting a "course" with several different shooting stations with different presentations such as homerhop described. The number of variations is endless, and the number of shots per station is variable. It's meant to simulate hunting situations and is very challenging. Since the sport's invention in England in 1875(?) there have only been 4 or 5 perfect scores of 100 targets broken. Homerhop's example sounds like another version called "5 stand". The traps are set up in different ways like he described, and there are 5 shooting stations. The targets are thrown the same way for each station, but in different orders. Each stand has a different viewpoint, so the clays appear differently as you move from stand to stand. I can't remember how many targets are shot at here, but I think it's 100? There's more, but I think that's enough If you're just throwing clays out in front of you with a thrower, it's generally refered to as "trap" shooting, but I don't know if there's an official name other than maybe "plinking"

11-05-2003, 01:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
BooRadley Insane Location: Kentucky	I'm a trap shooting enthusiast but I have never went to a range with it. I have my own thrower ( $50 from a sporting goods store ) and usually take a friend, so we take turns loading and shooting clays and will shoot about 50 or 60 at a time. We vary throws, etc. and it is alot of fun and cheap. If you want to take my route, buy either a 12 or 20 gauge gun, 20 gauge if recoil effects you. Buy a pump action shotgun, as they can hold two shells (all that is necessary for clays) and are much cheaper than double barrels. Either size shotgun is more than enough to bust up targets, and a maverick 12 gauge pump action is about $150 new. However, if you were a dumbass like me, you'd use a 16 gauge , and pay 150% more for shells and find them in very few stores. I would STRONGLY recommend against using any gauge other than 20, as shells are more expensive and harder to find. And when you are going through 3 or 4 boxes of shells a session, you can put a hurting on your wallet real quick. For example, 100 12 gauge trap shells is $14.48 at walmart. You can't buy 16 gauge shells in the 100 pack,so you have to buy 4 boxes of 25 at $4.28 a box. See the price difference? If you did .410 shotshells, you'd be spending $9.90 for a box of 25. And 28 gauage? Um, I know of very few places on earth that sell them.

11-05-2003, 03:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
SuperMidget Banned Location: Farm country, South Dakota	Never shot trap or skeet. Too unrealistic for practice before hunting season and too expensive for blowing a saturday. Whne I shoot clays, it's usually a couple friends and I throwing with a hand thrower. Automatic throwers are nice, but you don't get the wierd throws and cool things you can make pigeons do. As for shotguns, the Remington 870 is a beautiful gun. It's what I started shooting on and still use for pheasants. However, A few years ago when I was ready to go to a 12 ga. I bought a Browning BPS. The BPS is truly the penultimate of pump guns. Fair warning though, the BPS is so unlike any other pump gun out there. (Yes, I have shot almost every brand of pump at least three or four times and I think I am qualified to say) For instance, the BPS shoulders akward for someone used to Remington, Winchester, Mossberg, Benelli, et al. Instead of pivoting on the forearm hand, the BPS pivots on the butt-stock hand. Another thing is the bottom ejection. The shells eject out of the bottom, which necessitates a short stroke ejection to empty the chamber and load an external shell. (Can't really explain it better, but you pump only 7/8 of the way and eject the shell, but it doesn't drop one from the magazine, allowing you to place one in manually.) It drove me nuts the first few times but now, it is so much ahndier for switching shells. Especially for ducks and geese at varying ranges, it allows me to switch from BBB to dueces to 4 in less time. But the downside of the BPS is you can get 2 870's or Winchester 1300's for the price of one BPS. (Not even going to touch Mossberg, as I absolutely hate them. I have cleaned and removed rust from quite a few of my family's and friend's shot guns. The part that pisses me off the most, is my 870 and BPS both saw worse weather without even a trace of rust. Contrary to Mossberg's vaunted marketing strategy claiming that the 500 passed the DOD exposure test. The 590 did, not the straight 500 you see in walmart, and the 590 cost more than the 870 or 1300, which both have still passed the DOD exposure test) To sum up a long rant, The 870 is a great choice, as is the 1300. My favorite is the BPS. Benelli and Beretta are really nothing special for the extra money. There is really nothing that makes them stand out. Functionally they are identical to the 870. Mosseberg != good , but hey if you're strapped for cash they will work in a pinch. Just don't expect them to be as durable and work as well in inclement weather. When it comes to the gauge, use your best judgement. 20 ga is always a good choice. But if you feel up to it, 12 ga is more versatile. I really don't think you should go with anything different as ammo is harder to come by and much more expensive. The only exception is 10 ga, DON'T EVEN TRY IT. (I apologize for using all caps, but this is important.) I have shot one once. It hurt like hell. Now before you accuse me of being weak, I have and still do, shoot long action magnum rounds. (Rifle shells like .300 WM, .338 WM, 7mm RM.) But that 10 ga just absolutely knocks me on my ass. Kinda of like a "Thank you sir, may I have another" type thing. As for amunition, make sure you get Light Target loads. Heavy loads and high velocity loads hurt a hell of a lot more for someone not used to them. Stay away from steel for a while as they fall into those categories. Because steel does not have the energy absorbtion of lead, they add a little extra powder. And it kicks worse than a horse. (So says the guy that got kicked for shooting a 12 ga next to a horse) [/end rant]

11-05-2003, 04:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
SuperMidget Banned Location: Farm country, South Dakota	The Wingmaster looks a whole lot prettier, and shoulders much nicer. The flip sid eof that is it shows wear and damage a lot easier. They really don't shoot much different, the only difference I've found is the trigger. The wingmaster has a cleaner trigger break, but that is relatively moot on a shotgun. The choice is yours. Do you want a cleaner nicer looking gun, or do you want a cheaper version. If your going to put it through hell, I'd say go with the express, but it sounds like you're going to have it cased if you're not shooting so abuse is minimal. So we're back at square one. The difference is a matter of appearance. do you want it now, or wait. One thing, do not buy a gun at Walmart. Go to a local gun dealer, they will be inclined to bargain and throw in extras like cleaning kits and shells to sweeten the deal. Also, if you decide to save money, wait until about january, after hunting season and dealer's are cleaning out stocks to make room for the new models and such.

11-05-2003, 05:25 PM	#10 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	My brother in law, me, and a friend of ours go out probably once every three weekends to shoot clays. It's a good time, we use a handthrower. I use my Mossberg 500A with a Modified choke and Winchester 2-3/4" shells loaded with 7/8 oz of 7-1/2's. I do well with this combo. If recoil effects you, DO NOT get a 20-guage. Get a 12-guage semi-automatic. The recoil from one of these is about the same as a 20g pump, bolt, or single shot. Even my 12g has little recoil with shot. Slugs are a completely different world. The way we throw is fun. We throw the first 6 consistent, so we get a feel for the gun again, and then they're as inconsistent as you can get. That tells you if you're really good, or just lucky. Lately, I've been good! My gun holds five in the tube magazine, plus one in the chamber, for a total of six. Our friend does alright with a similiar set up on his 20g, but does better with a 12g. The simple reasoning for this is that there is more power behind the 12g stuff, and since it's a bigger gun, you have more pellets to go to the target. I'm thinking of getting another shotgun, in semi-auto, to lessen the recoil on shooting slugs...my shoulder hates me when I do that! I agree on going to a local gun dealer to buy ammo and the gun. Although, Wally-World CAN be a good place to get stuff. It's where I got my Savage .22LR. Guns are like anything else. Shop around...then decide. Good luck, bud, and let us know what you get, and how you do with it. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

11-06-2003, 01:03 AM	#11 (permalink)
homerhop Insane Location: ÉIRE	Do most people in America use semi's or pumps for shooting clays. I know that in alot of shoots this side of the world they are not looked upon nicely. Using semis for some types of trap I can under stand but pumps I cant as you have very limited time to shoot pump and shoot again.Alot of traps here fire two clays at the same time. __________________ its evolution baby

11-06-2003, 05:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
Rippley Insane	I shoot a Beretta .20 gauge O&U, a Spanish .20 SBS by the name Ugartechea and a .12 SBS Holland & Holland with a monstrously long barrel. The Beretta is excellent for all day hunting beacuse its so light, but the low weight also means its a little "jumpy" for clay shooting, be it trap or skeet. The Ugar is good for pretty much everything because the small caliber allows you to carry more ammo, than if you were waltzing around with a .12. The Holland & Holland however is an awesome piece of equipment, Full on Damascus barrels, mile long barrel. I've seen my father takae mallard out of the sky at 45m with that thing! Anyway, for clay shooting, especially if you're just starting out, get a heavier gun rather than the lighter version, as it will add some stability to your shooting. And always remember: Aim to miss the the clay about 3 feet ahead, and it'll fall out of the sky every time(works for me anyway...) Have fun!! __________________ roadrazer - 300kgs, 300hp = pure fun.

11-06-2003, 07:33 AM	#13 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	There are people who can shoot pump shotguns as fast as a semi-auto, so technically you could use either. You'll mostly see over-unders on a sporting clays range, but according to the articles I read in various places (and my coach) semi-auto's are the favorite among the pro shooters. In my case, I use a Berreta 391 Eureka sc in 12ga. I don't know how much difference there is among the pump guns, but the 391 is tops among semi-auto IMHO because it will shoot anything from light to heavy without changing anything. Recoil isn't even noticable to me, but this is highly subjective. For the peson wondering about the 870 Trap gun: I have the original model and LOVE it! The recoil reducer lets you shoot the gun all day long, and it's deadly accurate. It had been out of production awhile, and this is some sort of anniversary model I hear. If you want a gun JUST for trap, go for it! DE137: Try shooting like this: Hold the stock against your hip international style, and only shoulder the gun when the bird is in the air. Make it harder still by having someone else do a slow count to some number before you can bring up the gun. Shows you if you're mounting the gun right real quick

11-06-2003, 09:05 AM	#14 (permalink)
homerhop Insane Location: ÉIRE	Funny how we differ this side of the water. The majority of pros here and in England shoot O&U.Thats why I was wondering was it an American thing. I shot at county level here(same as your state level)and my friend shoots international. He has a Perazzi and keeps 2 sets of barrels, but as you said these are sporting traps. Just for getting the feel of a gun, get a 2ft piece of cardboard and draw a target in the centre. Place it roughly 20ft from you. Mount the gun as fast as you can and fire at the centre of the target.It will give you a rough idea if you are firing left or right, to high or low. It is not that hard a job to get the stock of the gun bent to suit your shooting and should not cost that much. __________________ its evolution baby

11-06-2003, 04:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
SuperMidget Banned Location: Farm country, South Dakota	I dunno, there are a lot of people who shoot single shots here in the midwest. (South Dakota) But most people use their Hunting shotguns. When it comes to semi-autos I have only seen one I would ever buy. That was a 1950's era Belgium Browning a-5. Every other semi-auto needs to be cleaned about every half day if it sees any serious field time and harsh conditions. I had a friend shooting a very nice and expensive Benelli auto loader. This was in December and we were walking road ditches for pheasants. As we kept getting in and out of the truck, the guns would get condensation on them. Well, we started walking and a rooster jumps up in front of us. He pulls up to shoot and guss what. His gun fired once and then wouldn't work. His gas chamber froze solid. (That just ment I got all the shooting back home...hehe) So I guess I'll just stick with my pump. To whomever was asking if a pump was as fast as an auto-loader, if you practice enough, a pump can be faster. If you get really good, you can even beat the firing pin. Believe me, I saw that one first hand, it was insane.

11-06-2003, 09:44 PM	#16 (permalink)
strife Insane Location: Chi-Town	Would a Remington 870 Express 12 Gauge from K-mart for $265 be a bad choice? __________________ You are what you love, not what loves you. strife

11-06-2003, 11:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
SuperMidget Banned Location: Farm country, South Dakota	Not at all. It's a nice gun, shoots well, for the money it's damn hard to beat.

11-06-2003, 11:40 PM	#18 (permalink)
strife Insane Location: Chi-Town	So I shouldn't be a little skeptical that its comming from k-mart. Becuase it is a Remington gun... I do think that question sounds stupid, I'd buy a ps2 at a k-mart if it was cheaper....I dunno, for some reason I can't beleive that the quality will be the same. I'm just wierd I guess. __________________ You are what you love, not what loves you. strife

11-07-2003, 08:20 AM	#19 (permalink)
SuperMidget Banned Location: Farm country, South Dakota	Don't worry, it'll be the same gun, it'll come in the same box with the same little green manual. More importantly the warranty will still be there. So yeah, as long as it is from one of the big name manufacturers don't worry about it.

11-07-2003, 09:11 AM	#20 (permalink)
BooRadley Insane Location: Kentucky	It is the same gun as you buy anywhere else. Don't be skeptical, they aren't the highest quality guns in the world, but unless you are trying to shoot a slug 100 yards with a scope you ( as a first-time gun owner) can't tell the difference. And to whomever said "If recoil effects you, buy a semi-auto in a bigger gauge"... why not buy a semi-auto in 20 gauge? Surely you wouldn't argue that it has a higher kick than a 12 gauge?