G5_Todd

was going to place in photography section but forgot its for your own work only.....


i would really like to find an extremely high resolution one and take it to a graphic place and have it printed out so i can get it framed....if anyone has it in a high resolution please post it or contact me....


thanks and enjoy

440sixpack

Hey, Todd, how's it going (this is Heide from Windhund). That is a cool picture, no idea where to find the original though.

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G5_Todd

hey heide.....


ya i love that picture.....and i have been searching all over the place trying to find it in a good reso such as 1600x1200 or so......i would love to have it printed out and put it above my computer desk

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debaser

The quality is not so great, maybe you can photoshop it to your liking.

Not bad for a staged photo...

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G5_Todd

its called propaganda....

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"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

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440sixpack

I think that's the one I found too. No, Actually I think it's a little bigger. Be nice if it was higher res, but maybe that's as good as it gets.

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pocon1

Here is one of my favorite pictures of WW2. This is the Americans and the Russians meeting in Germany.

Rudel73

pocon1, be open minded please. Do you really think that every soldier in the wehrmacht killed every jew they saw? Propaganda has done such a good job on society these days that we all picture the germans are evil human beings, when in fact they were no different than soldiers of our own country. It wasnt the soldiers that were killing the innocent, and even if it was you cant be mad at them for just following orders.

Moonduck

When I saw this pic, I thougth about posting. I decided against it though as I looked more at the subjective content of the photo, not the objective photo itself. I see that others did not have similar restraint.

This is, technically speaking, an excellent photo. It is very striking both in layout, mixture of light/dark, and all that photographer lingo that no one else really worries about. It also happens to be of a pair of the German version of GI Joe. No, not the hyper-patriotic comic-book hero, the guy that the term was coined for. The American grunt what fought day and night for his life, and maybe for a cause he believed in. In general though, he fought to keep alive, and to keep his buddies alive.

The average German soldier was precisely the same. Innumerable stories exist of German soldiers finding out what Hitler and the SS had done during the war and the period leading up to it. The response was usually shock and disbelief. These were not men fighting to be able to torture and kill Jews, homosexuals, and dissidents. They were men fighting for the same reason our boys did - to defend their homeland.

Get past the whole hate for the Germans. They were lead astray and lied to by those that they put into power. Were they wrong? Yup. Were they culpable? To the extent that they did not stop what they did not know about. I don't like Nazism, I don't respect what they stood for. I find it unutterably vile. The average soldier, though, was just a normal guy who had the misfortune of working for the wrong government.

pocon1

Hey rude and moonduck, I hear what you are saying about the German soldiers, but I think you are missing my point. My point was not about the soldiers, but what a picture of them represents. The fact is, German soldiers from WW2 represent the militaristic arm of a dictatorship that was bent on subjugating and conquering the world. Individual soldiers may not be entirely culpable, but the fact is they allowed their government to mark every Jew with stars to identify them. They watched Hitler round up dissidents in their own government and execute them (the long knife period). They watched other political parties get dissolved. Then they watched their soldiers march off to attack other countries without provocation. So yes, the Germans did know what was going on. And yes, pictures glorifying Germany during that time represent what happened during that time. This picture is not being offered up as part of a historical piece on the war. This picture is to be framed and placed on display. So it does carry a message.

Rudel73

Pocon, i guess the picture means different things to different people. To me it's just two german soldiers fighting for the fatherland, and to you it has a more political view. Nothing wrong with that at all we just have different viewpoints

Moonduck

No pocon1, I get your point. I think you missed mine. That pic does not represent the Nazi regime. It represents two German soldiers. The only time it represents the whole of the Nazi experience is to you (and others of similar mindset, of course). The point I was making was that the picture is, in itself, rather neutral. It is the subjective content that you (or others, again) add to it that you have a problem with. It is not a pic of Jewish prisoners. It is not a pic of Waffen SS. It is not a pic of a Swastika, Hitler, or Hitler Youth. It is only Nazi because you see it as Nazi.

Still, reread my post. As I said, I did not post initially because my first reactive was as subjectively loaded as your is. I am not saying that your viewpoint and inability to remove subjective impressions are incorrect. I was sympthizing. I am just saying that the pic is not particularly evocative politically. I felt the desire to defend the average soldier, as I do not blame him.

MangaMonkey

Hi,
That is truly a striking and beautiful picture.
I know what many of you mean, and I felt the same up until I really learned about WWII and the Wehrmacht. I recently found a book titled BLITZKRIEG and it showed hundreds of personal photos from German soldiers fighting throughout Poland, France, North Africa, and the Low Countries during the war. What immediately struck me and made me think were the pictures of Officers posing with their buddies and making funny faces or the German soldiers talking with small children and posing for pictures. These photos would normally mean nothing, but these were personal pictures taken from the collections of soldiers who fought during the war, not staged propoganda photo shoots. It really made me think. I realized that most soldiers fighting in the war (regulars members of the Wehrmacht) were just- as Moonduck said it- G.I. Joes, people who were pressured to or felt a need to fight for Germany as many Americans and Brits did during the war. Sure, they fought for a despicable regime, but they didn't get to choose who they fought for. Their country entered a war through no fault of their own and they were forced to fight.
Thanks,
Manga

Moonduck

I'm going to have to keep an eye out for that book, MangaMonkey. I'm a bit of a fan of military history in general, though not of the Nazi's as far to many military historians are, but I love seeing such personal glimpses of conflict. Thanks for the reference.

propaganda

He put this so perfectly I don't know how to respond. It's true too most American and British soldiers did join to fight "The Good Fight" but most ended up forgetting all that because it was totally useless to them. They all became fixated on fighting for themselves not to destroy the enemy. There are actually a couple of good books written on things like this by the soldiers.

pocon1

If you people want to insist that the Germans were just ordinary people who did not know what was going on, you go right ahead. History supports my position that a majority of people elected Hitler to power, that they supported invading the rest of Europe, that they tracked down Jews and turned them over to the police, that they euthanized cripples and mentally handicapped people, and that they were bent on world domination. You don't defend the "fatherland" by attacking everyone else. When the war ended, no one wanted to admit that they were involved in the atrocities. They lied through their teeth to save their asses. They were out front greeting American soldiers and in their backyards they were burning their uniforms.
BTW, here is a column from the Washington Post that talks about the historical revisionism that is occuring in Germany. Maybe you should take a look at it and accept that things written by Germans might need to be taken with a grain of salt.


Enter any of Frankfurt's grand hotels on any evening during Frankfurt's annual book fair and a scene worthy of a German Woody Allen -- if that isn't a complete contradiction in terms -- spreads out before you in the lobby. Sipping away at glasses of chardonnay last week were men in horn-rimmed glasses and black turtlenecks, women in heavy eyeliner and pointy shoes -- a vast army of literary agents, publishers, booksellers, intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals discussing Death, Freud and (enviously) who had bought the international rights to the latest hack-celebrity biography. At the fair itself, brightly colored cookbooks vied for attention with white-jacketed philosophical tomes, while Russian performance artists wrapped themselves in cellophane tape. It was hard to know what to look at next.



It was also hard not to notice how much the chatter about books in Germany reveals nowadays about the mood in Germany. As in the United States, many of the books that have recently found their way to the top of German bestseller lists concern Sept. 11, 2001. Unlike those in the United States, many of them also argue that the Bush administration was responsible for Sept. 11. One book, by a former German government minister, argues that the planes that hit the World Trade Center may have been secretly steered from the ground. Another -- translated from the French and titled "The Appalling Lie" -- says that the Pentagon was never hit by a plane at all but was instead deliberately blown up with a bomb. Germany's establishment press has studiously debunked these theories, to little avail: Recently, an opinion poll showed that one in five Germans believe them.

But if German bestseller lists reveal a German reassessment of the United States, they have also in recent years revealed an even more vigorous German reassessment of Germany. Not one but two books have become popular through their descriptions of the Allied bombing of Dresden in 1945, which resulted in fires that caused tens of thousands of deaths. One of the authors used the word "crematoria" to describe the burning buildings, described the Allied bomber pilots as the equivalents of Nazi police units that murdered Jews and concluded by wondering whether Winston Churchill, who ordered the bombings, ought to have been condemned as a war criminal.

These books have also been effective: According to another opinion poll, more than a third of the Germans now think of themselves as "victims" of the Second World War -- just like the Jews. Nor has this new interpretation of history remained limited to books. Lately momentum has gathered behind a movement to build a new museum in Berlin dedicated to Germans expelled from their homes at the end of the war -- just like the Holocaust museum. It's not wrong for Germans to remember their relatives who suffered, but the tone of the campaigners is disturbing, because they seem, at times, almost to forget why the war started in the first place. Their leader, for example, is the daughter of a Wehrmacht officer, and was born in occupied Poland. Tragically, she was expelled from her childhood home when German troops were defeated -- the adverb "tragically" representing a certain point of view here, not an objective observation.

That point of view, always popular on the far right of the German political spectrum, has spread rapidly leftward in recent years, attracting supporters among Social Democrats, bank presidents and others. Not everybody agrees by any means, but the subject is shockingly raw, even difficult to discuss politely. As I can attest, there are German politicians who will shout down other guests at dinner parties if their right to victimhood is questioned too harshly.

It is my guess that these things are related: It cannot be an accident that a wave of unusually virulent, even irrational anti-Americanism has peaked just as Germans have begun, for the first time since the war, to talk about their past in a new way. Germany is reassessing its place in Europe, its role in the world, its postwar subordination to the United States. Some of the recalcitrance we've seen in Germany during the past year has been genuine opposition to the war in Iraq and genuine dislike of President Bush and what he is thought to stand for. But some reflects a deeper change. Germans, or at least some of them, no longer want to apologize for the 20th century. Germans, or at least some of them, no longer want to accept the political leadership of the United States. Just look at the bestseller lists for proof.

applebaumanne@washpost.com


© 2003 The Washington Post Company

Moonduck

Um, not sure what the point is of that article in this thread. Okay, so Germans today, the vast majority of were not alive in WWII, are tired of apologizing for the actions of their grandparents and great-grandparents. Gee, they're evil. Perhaps alluding to themselves as victims of WWII is a stretch (a big stretch), but how long should they carry the burden of guilt? How many generations?

Wait! They don't like Americans! Y'know what? They didn't like Americans when I lived there from 73-77 and again from 83-87. Hell, the first time I lived there German anti-American terrorists shot at my schoolbus with automatic weapons! They blew up the American high school near my house as well. We have occupied their country for 60 years now. No matter how friendly an occupation it is, no matter how good it has been for the German people, it is still an occupation. No one likes occupation forces in their country.

If you want to believe that every last soldier was in on the Concentration Camps, it's your belief. I've lived there. Call me an optimist, but I did not see some inherent deepset evil in the German character that would accept such darkness on a broad scale. I disbelieve. I think the majority of people, civilian and military, had no real idea. They may have figured it out if they looked closely, but it didn't pay to look too closely. The Nazis were psycho evil, no argument, but you are saying that the whole frikken population of Germany was in cahoots with and in agreement with that psychotic evil. I refuse to paint an entire nation with such a broad brush, especially when I've lived there and seen it first-hand.

MangaMonkey

Hi,
Yes, I think we all realize that Hitler had the support of the German people to enter a position of power, and that he also had support from a percentage of the populace in his zealous massacres, but condemning a group of people because they lived in or around a country during a time in history is both narrow minded and stupid. I never said they were defending the Fatherland by invading Europe, I said they fought for their country by answering their national call-to-arms. Are the American soldiers of today not doing the same thing? Despite America's foggy intentions and sad excuses for logic, I still see the soldiers as inherently good people. After all, as I said before, they cannot choose which battles to fight in or which enemy to fight, those things are chosen for them.

As to this report of revisionist writings occuring in Germany, I ask of you, how many other countries have also shared in revisionist writings? Well, the answer is nearly every nation on earth. I don't blame them for trying to hide or forget the actions of past generations. What are they supposed to do? Get caught up in the war and not get past it? I don't think so. And specifically on the subject of the firebombings- yes, the people who carried those attacks as well as the firebombings of Tokyo/Kyoto/Osaka are just as guilty as any Nazi who killed jews. Why? Because those acts were specifically carried out knowing they would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians, and they were carried out for that purpose alone. The Americans by this point knew that they had knocked out most factories, shipyards, and important targets, so they would literally fly over cities and drop their payload at will- anything was an ample target in their eyes. And what makes this even worse is that bombing runs were specifically designated during times when the Allied forces knew that Japanese and German civillians would be out shopping, so they could inflict the worst casualties. And yet, this is almost never mentioned in American history. I wonder why? Germany is changing it's stance on it's relationship with America- like just about every country in the world at the moment. Singling Germany out because of it's previous faults is like bringing up a past relationship to spite a person: it is both in bad taste and cowardly.
Thanks,
Manga

pocon1

Hey MangaMonkey, who started the war? The Germans. Who Bombed London every night? The Germans. I am not asking the Germans to keep apologizing for their actions from only 60 years ago, just to not try to rewrite their role in what happened.

Moonduck

Actually, your original argument was, in essence, that all Germans were Nazis and fully culpable in the despicable actions of the regime. You posted an article that mentioned revisionism. You have not particularly argued revisionism. Also, by continuing some vague hatred/dislike of Germany today, you are rather implicitly blaming modern Germany for the sins of the father.

So, yes, I would say that you are asking Germany today to continue apologoizing for the actions of people mostly long gone.

peeweesbigbong

pocon, i think you need to read some of the history of WWI (thats right World War One)

you might notice how much France and england is to blame for WWII

pocon1

Manga monkey said,
And specifically on the subject of the firebombings- yes, the people who carried those attacks as well as the firebombings of Tokyo/Kyoto/Osaka are just as guilty as any Nazi who killed jews. Why? Because those acts were specifically carried out knowing they would kill hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians, and they were carried out for that purpose alone. The Americans by this point knew that they had knocked out most factories, shipyards, and important targets, so they would literally fly over cities and drop their payload at will- anything was an ample target in their eyes. And what makes this even worse is that bombing runs were specifically designated during times when the Allied forces knew that Japanese and German civillians would be out shopping, so they could inflict the worst casualties. And yet, this is almost never mentioned in American history.

First, don't call me narrow-minded and stupid. Second, Lets not bring Japan in this because if you remember, they attacked us without provocation. They also killed 10 MILLION Chinese people. They did not even call China by its name, they called it the Southern Resource Area. Check out a book called The Rape of Nanking to learn how the Japanese treated people. Third, bombing was not nearly as precise back then as it was now. It was almost impossible to hit targets at night, so of course we bombed during the day. But at least the Japanese are very good at apologizing for their actions. And finally, you say that the people who bombed the cities are just as guilty as Nazis attacking Jews. I fail to see how a bombing during a war is the same as systematically wiping out a race of people. Our bombing stopped when the war stopped. Germans killing Jews and Japanese killing Chinese would not have stopped until the Chinese and Jews were wiped out.

pocon1

Peeweesbigbong said,
pocon, i think you need to read some of the history of WWI (thats right World War One)

you might notice how much France and england is to blame for WWII


Which of your history books failed to mention who started WW1. In case you did not know, it was also the Germans. Maybe if you think about that, you can realize why the Brits and French were so pissed. Also, the Germans attacked France in the 1870's. So France was attacked by the Germans in the 1870's and 1914, and they are expected to be nice to the Germans? They wanted some protection from their marauding neighbors. OK, so maybe the treaty of Versaille was harsh, because the Brits and French wanted to crush Germany's industrial complex, but they had a pretty good reason. Plus, that still does not give Germany the right to attack Poland, Denmark, Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Holland, or any other country occupied By Germany. And that includes North Africa.

debaser

It was technically the Serbs who started WW1.

__________________

pocon1

Hey Moonduck,

I don't hate the Germans today, But I hate representation of what they did and stood for 60 years ago. That pic is a representation of German militarism, nationalism, ethnic pride and racism, and the willingness to subjugate all who stand in their way. This whole argument boils down to one person who wanted to publish and frame that picture, And I noticed he has not responded in a while. So how about it, G5_Todd, why do you want a representation of Nazi Germany on display? Why did you dredge up a picture of an awful time and decide that you wanted to look at it? Inquiring minds want to know. And I can say Nazi Germany because it was the Nazi Government. This pic is not about Private Franz pulled from the farm and told to march east or west, it is a piece of propaganda created to show German military might and power. So Why do you want to glorify that, G5_todd?

boris

a photograph on its own can be interpreted as art, and art can be interpreted so many different ways.

this picture, to me, evokes hate.

pocon1

Yes Boris, you can appreciate the artistic qualities on its own, but this picture was undeniably taken to send a message. Maybe you can explain to the others why this picture evokes hate in you. Some people don't seem to agree with me, and they might hear the message better from someone else.

MangaMonkey

Hi,
Okay, first off, I didn't call you narrow-minded and stupid, I called your views narrow-minded and stupid. Big difference.
I realize fully what the Japanese have done. My grandfather was in a Japanese concentration camp for 3 years and so I have heard very fully the cruelty of the Japanese people. That does not justify murdering civillians, though. Sure, the Japanese army slaughtered thousands of innocent Chinese in virtually every way imaginable, but that does not justify the slaughter of innocent civillians not involved in the war in return. This then leads to your next comment about how "inaccurete" the bombing was, which is in reality 100% bullshit. These pilots knew exactly where they were dropping their bombs and they took full advantage of knowledge of the time of day to inflict the most casualties on civillians possible, people they were not supposed to be killing.
You see, you are looking at this far too subjectively- look at it obectively. Killing is killing. Sometimes killing is justified, but most other times it is not. Whether a Nazi commandante orders the execution of 50 Jewish civillians or whether an American pilot drops his bombs on a crowded Tokyo marketplace, killing hundreds does not matter. They were equally heinous acts of murder. Trying to weigh these things against each other is nearly impossible, so don't even try.
I am not denying that both sides contributed to the horrors of WWII, some side much more than others. Trying to deny that would be an exercise in futility. I am simply objecting to your viewpoint that what the Germans are bad people and that they should not be allowed to try to start again 60 years later.
Thanks,
Manga

pocon1

Mangamonkey,
50 Jewish civilians, try 6 million. And once again, I am not implicating Germans in general, but when 20% of their countrymen believe that we blew up the Pentagon and the WTC, we need to step up and make sure the truth gets out. when they try to cast themselves as victims of WW2, we need to make sure the truth gets out.

Moonduck

Militarism, sure, agreed. Nationalism, bit of a stretch. It's two soldiers. You look and see them as German because of they're helmets and grenades. An astute student of history could also see Spanish soldiers in that photo. The Spaniards used the same helm at that time, and same style of grenade. They were Germany's ally and bought much of their military gear either from the Germans or off of German pattern. If the pic was nationalistic, I would expect to see German insignia and/or flags or other German symbols. The two boys in the pic don't even look strongly Germanic. Ethnic pride? Aroo? I cannot really tell their ethnicity from that pic. They could be any race short of black or Asian, and that is a possibility. You assume ethinc pride. Lastly, rascism. Where, oh where does it show rascism? I see two men in prone, one raised up to throw a grenade, and the other holding a Mauser 98k. Where is the rascism?

Again, you are adding subjective content where it does not at all exist.


Well, we aren't too far out of agreement there. As I said, I didn't care for the emotional baggage that pic dredged up in me either. I see no reason to lambast Todd, or, worse, to lambast Germany of today.


Um, what does Modern Germany's thoughts on 9-11 have to do with that photo? Either you have an issue with modern Germany or you don't. If you do, stop claiming that you don't. If you don't, why do you continue to bring up what Modern Germany thinks?

In the end, this post has wandered far afield from the original intent. I think it is a technically strong photo. It shows weaponry accurate to the period and the focus is military, thus I see the post's place on this board. We should either try to get back on topic, or stop posting.

NOTE: I am not good at either, though I am calling for it. Don't be terribly surprised if I get pulled back into this discussion after having called for decorum =)

pocon1

Moonduck Said:
If the pic was nationalistic, I would expect to see German insignia and/or flags or other German symbols. The two boys in the pic don't even look strongly Germanic. Ethnic pride? Aroo? I cannot really tell their ethnicity from that pic. They could be any race short of black or Asian, and that is a possibility.

Those guys are obviously white, I can clearly tell, and isnt that a paratroop badge on the potato masher's shirt? And what rank is on display on his collar? What type of rifle did the paratroopers carry?

MangaMonkey

Hi,
I agree that if modern-day Germany was trying to portray itself as a victim in the war, it would be ludicrous. Thanks to the advancement of photography and film, something as huge as the Second World War cannot be forgotten.

The original, much-clearer picture is down right now, but in the second grainy one it has hard to make out if it is a Fallschirmjager trooper or not. The Fallschirmjager mostly used Kar98s but later on they used the FG42 Scoped Semi-Automatic rifle, which was an ideal weapon for troops being dropped behind enemy lines.
Thanks,
Manga

Halx

Thanks for keeping this mature, everyone.

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Moonduck

Now we're back to weapons and other military kit. The rifle looks like it could be a Kar98. It looks short enough. Then again, the Spaniards used short Mausers to. I had one a few years back, sold it to a friend of mine. Sweet little FR8 Mauser chambered in .308 Winchester. Accurate enough and built like a club, and, yes, I know that the FR8 was post-WWII. I'm just mentioning it because of the similarities.

I really can't tell on the insignia though, and that is one of the reasons I mentioned it. If it was clear, I would accept a stronger case for purposeful nationalism. A serious propaganda photo would likely make a major production of these boys being Fallshirmjager, if they were. I only mentioned the Spaniards because their gear is so similar, and their facial phenotypes, in many regions, not so very different.

How much shorter was the Kar98 than the regular Mauser?

G5_Todd

i think it looks short because he is not aiming...he is holding as if he is low crawling......so the other end would be further back and his other hand would be further up

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks

debaser

They are not Fallshirmjager. The insignia is regular Wehrmarcht, enlisted.

__________________

pocon1

debaser

How mature...

__________________

G5_Todd

The guy holding the handgrenade is a private first class or a corporal. Can't see that clearly. Can't tell you what rank the left one is. The sign on his chest looks like the Reichsadler to me, that was on every german Wehrmacht uniform.

a friend in german army gave me a lil insight

Moonduck

Apparently my eyes suck as badly as my ability to ID German insignia =P

Thanks guys.