WW2 weaponry research question - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

chavos · 09-29-2003, 01:21 PM

as a person with little experience with guns, etc...i'm having a bit of a quandry. I'm writing a story set in WW2, and i need some background info on some of the weaponry available, etc...

the specific setting is a french resistance group in teh north of france, so weapons would likely be british supplied, taken from french armories, or scavenged from german forces, i would assume.

I'd like to know a little about common side arms, infantry rifles, sniper rifles, and other small arms...and/or book titles i could look for. thanks a million.

redravin40 · 09-29-2003, 02:12 PM

Check out the Sten gun.
A simple machine gun that could be made on any lathe and was mass produced in what had been canning factory's.
It's basically a hose that sprays bullets but it works.

propaganda · 09-29-2003, 06:01 PM

Liberator gun or Liberation gun.
Americans drop it in the thousands to the French Resistance. They were only supposed to be used for one shot but could be reloaded but that took about a half an hour. They were also incredibly but they helped obviously.

mtsgsd · 09-29-2003, 06:40 PM

The liberator was a simple single shot pistol made from stamped steel and riveted together like the old fashioned toy guns. It held extra ammo in the grip. The grip also held the stick used to extract the last shell fired.

The gun could be loaded in a lot less time than half an hour!

The firing pin had a grip on it so it could be pulled back to cock it and turned to the side to allow access to the chamber. A steel shutter used as a breech block is pulled up and a round can then be chambered, or extracted using the wooded dowel. Once the round is in, the shutter is slid down and the fireing pin's handle rotated back over the the back of the breech. No rifleing in the barrel, no sights to speak of. It was meant for close range use, and cheap production and was air dropped in large numbers. The gun also included simple instructions using drawings.

chavos · 09-29-2003, 08:49 PM

cool...all helpful ideas. any good ideas on looking up standard german weaponry during that period?

Moonduck · 09-29-2003, 08:50 PM

Your easiest bet would be to research German weaponry. The Resistance was highly skilled at raiding German armouries.

The major German rifle was the K-98 Mauser, a bolt-action chambered in 8x57mm I believe. I'm not dead certain on the second number, but can confirm that the actual caliber in question was 8mm.

The standard German sidearm was the P-38, made by Walther, a double-action 9x19mm with (I believe) an 9rd capacity. It was a reliable weapon of quality, though quality does degrade seriously the closer you get towards the end of the war. You would also likely see Luger P-08 as well, another 9x19mm semi-auto noted for it's high quality and overly worky action.

There were a number of submachine guns in play, the so-called "Schmeisser" being the most common, also chambered in 9x19mm. There various models, MP-40 being common.

The classic German machien gun was the MG-42, one of the best LMG designs the world has seen, and copied almost whole cloth by the US in the form of the M-60. It was chambered in the same 8mm round as the k-98 and produced withering fire.

The Sten, mentioned above, was commonly seen in the hands of various resistance movements, though my knoledge of the French Resistance's timeline versus the introduction date of the Sten is shakey. The Brits did make staggering numbers of these 9x19mm SMG's, and you would not be totally remiss in including one or two so long as you are checking your timeline.

The Liberator has been mentioned all ready. The only note I will add is that it was intended for one purpose - to allow a French person to take out a single German soldier and then arm himself properly with the soldier's kit. Other than the Liberator, I doubt that you would see many American guns in the hands of the Resistance until fairly late.

All of this being said, have you decided when your story will take place? The various firearms being used will change radically depending on year. Some, like the K-98, remain unchanged for the entirety of the war, but others change many times.

Lebell · 09-29-2003, 11:49 PM

Well dang.

I have about a dozen books inherited from an uncle that would answer your questions exactly, but they are all packed up.

But luckily, other TFP'ers have come through with some good basic information.

What I haven't seen mentioned are the classic german side arm, the famous broom handled Mauser.*

If you want to include some grenades, the german grenade (can't remember the designation) looked like a can with a stick coming out of the bottom. It was armed by unscrewing a cap on the bottom of the stick and pulling a cord which was underneath. The soldier then threw it somewhat like you would throw a boomerang.

The GI's called them "Potato mashers" because that is what they resembled.

*quick trivia: Star Wars prop guys modeled Han Solo's blaster after the broom handled mauser.

Pacifier · 09-30-2003, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
The classic German machien gun was the MG-42, one of the best LMG designs the world has seen, and copied almost whole cloth by the US in the form of the M-60.

The MG 42 is still in service within the german army as MG3 (or MG2 which are the original war production guns which were chanced for the new NATO ammunition) and various other armys.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
If you want to include some grenades, the german grenade (can't remember the designation) looked like a can with a stick coming out of the bottom.

it was the Stielhandgranate 24 ("shafthandgrenade" i think)

chavos · 09-30-2003, 07:11 AM

moonduck-the story is set at the very beginning of the fall of france, and will continue through d-day/northwest campaign, so i'm going to have to be checking my dates like mad as is.

thanks to everybody who helped answer-i've got some great material to work from now.

Moonduck · 09-30-2003, 05:19 PM

Okay, well that does limit some of the qeapons that would be present. Check production dates and modify issue dates based on the opposition units. In essence, a front-line military unit in good supply will have the best available weapons, especially elite units. This will both mean a limited availability for the newer weapons and a lower likelihood of said weapons falling into the hands of the Resistance as the users would be more competent. Resistance fighters will seek to obtain weapons from rear echelon units and depots, not from hard-edged front-line troops.

Also, always remember that it is completely safe to err on the side of older weapons. While a stickler for details will chide you for including an MP-40 in early war, no one will really be all that taken aback to see a Resistance fighter using a Luger P-08 at any point.

(More Stars Wars prop trivia - the Stormtrooper Blaster Rifles were Sterling SMG's with very short magazine and mocked up optic sights.)

Moonduck · 09-30-2003, 05:23 PM

Oh eys, forgot to add one thing - don't be too afraid to mix things up, especially with sidearms. Staggering numbers of accounts of officers carrying weapons from wildly varying sources exist. Patton carried a Colt Peacemaker for parades and a Smith & Wesson M-27 for combat. A good friend's father took a matched pair of Browning High Power 9mm's as war booty from an NVA Colonel in a bunker, and he carried a Ruger Blackhawk in .357 magnum as a sidearm while flying missions in Viet Nam.

The normal soldier will carry issue kit, but officers are given more leeway.

Lebell · 09-30-2003, 08:32 PM

Pacifier:

That would have been Moonduck on the MG42 that you quoted.

And I believe that the current model is the MG74, which is very similiar but has a lower cyclic rate.

Pacifier · 10-01-2003, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
That would have been Moonduck on the MG42 that you quoted.

uups sorry.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
And I believe that the current model is the MG74, which is very similiar but has a lower cyclic rate.

The MG74 is the austrian MG, it is also based on the MG42 and has a rate of fire of 830 shots per minute (pic)

The MG3 is the german variant of the MG42, it has a ROF of 1200 shots/min (pic)

Pacifier · 10-01-2003, 04:25 AM

Some pics of the Liberator:

Last build pistol:
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/liberator02.jpg
1.000.000 Liberator
1942 Guide Lamp GMC.
Fred B. Thacker
US Army 0360133

A Liberator was made in 6.6 seconds, reloading took at least 10 secs....

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/liberator06.JPG
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/liberator09.JPG

G5_Todd · 10-06-2003, 11:44 AM

ya mail call had something on this the other day....

they said mainly german weps...such as the k98 mp40

the british sten gun / enfield / and the liberator that pacifier stated...

Plaid13 · 10-11-2003, 08:51 PM

Dont forget about the delisle. a sileneced bolt action .45 =)

Moonduck · 10-14-2003, 11:54 AM

Making progress on the story, chavos?

MangaMonkey · 10-17-2003, 05:50 PM

Hi,
What about MG34 Machine Guns? I'm not all big on gun specifications and all, but I know a lot about WWII weaponry. I don't know how common these would be amongst resistance troops, but there's also the STG44 Assault Rifle, and the MP38/40 Machine Pistol, as mentioned.
Thanks,
Manga

peeweesbigbong · 10-18-2003, 09:23 PM

the STG44 was the very first assualt rifle (named that after Hitler called it an assault rifle) really sweet gun and ive acctually been able to shoot one

chavos · 10-18-2003, 09:43 PM

wow...forgot about this thread i guess. the story is going wellish.

I'm still trying to choose a side arm that's actually fairly badass...i'm somewhat hesitant to give this hero a stolen luger...just doesn't seem like a hell of a shot.

I think most of the time, the MP38 will be used, but one of the characters will have a mauser rifle that's had a scope attached. throw in some random explosives, and i think it should be a pretty kick ass party.

MangaMonkey · 10-19-2003, 12:19 AM

Hi,
The STG44 is one badass Assault Rifle, and did you know they developed an attachment for the STG44 which allowed it to shoot around corners? You attached a mirror and a curved tube to the end of the barrel and using the mirror, you were supposed to view around corners and shoot at up to a 30 degree angle. Unfortunately, it rarely worked and usually ended up destroying the gun after firing. They also had basic InfraRed technology for the STG44 later on in the war, which was given to some SS troopers (The "Vampyr" InfaRed technology was also equipped on night-fighting Panther Gs).
Thanks,
Manga

Moonduck · 10-19-2003, 03:24 PM

Badass sidearm? A Browning High Power would be pretty trick if it is late enough for the weapon. I want to say that the High Power was built in 1935 (thus the P-35 designation, I believe), so it should easily be late enough. It is a single-action 9mm with the first real staggered hi-capacity magaizne. One round in the pipe and thirteen in the mag made for a potent handgun. As it is a Browning design, it is also reliable and accurate. Great guns, made in Belgium by FN at that time, I think. Check the facts first.

If you want it to be really impressive, wierd, and somewhat out of place, try a S&W M-1917. It is a large frame revolver chambered in .45ACP (it used half-moon clips to hold the rounds in the cylinder). It is a big, potent gun that was relatively common in WWI, and will thus be available on the black market in France any time after WWI. Another good large frame revolver would be a .455 Webley. They were great, horkin' big British guns that were very common in WWI, and still used by Brit 'commando' types in WWII.

09-29-2003, 01:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	WW2 weaponry research question as a person with little experience with guns, etc...i'm having a bit of a quandry. I'm writing a story set in WW2, and i need some background info on some of the weaponry available, etc... the specific setting is a french resistance group in teh north of france, so weapons would likely be british supplied, taken from french armories, or scavenged from german forces, i would assume. I'd like to know a little about common side arms, infantry rifles, sniper rifles, and other small arms...and/or book titles i could look for. thanks a million.

09-29-2003, 11:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Well dang. I have about a dozen books inherited from an uncle that would answer your questions exactly, but they are all packed up. But luckily, other TFP'ers have come through with some good basic information. What I haven't seen mentioned are the classic german side arm, the famous broom handled Mauser.* If you want to include some grenades, the german grenade (can't remember the designation) looked like a can with a stick coming out of the bottom. It was armed by unscrewing a cap on the bottom of the stick and pulling a cord which was underneath. The soldier then threw it somewhat like you would throw a boomerang. The GI's called them "Potato mashers" because that is what they resembled. *quick trivia: Star Wars prop guys modeled Han Solo's blaster after the broom handled mauser. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-30-2003, 08:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Pacifier: That would have been Moonduck on the MG42 that you quoted. And I believe that the current model is the MG74, which is very similiar but has a lower cyclic rate. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-01-2003, 04:25 AM	#14 (permalink)
Pacifier undead Location: Duisburg, Germany	Some pics of the Liberator: Last build pistol: http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/liberator02.jpg 1.000.000 Liberator 1942 Guide Lamp GMC. Fred B. Thacker US Army 0360133 A Liberator was made in 6.6 seconds, reloading took at least 10 secs.... http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/liberator06.JPG http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/liberator09.JPG __________________ "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein

10-06-2003, 11:44 AM	#15 (permalink)
G5_Todd Junkie Location: Reichstag	ya mail call had something on this the other day.... they said mainly german weps...such as the k98 mp40 the british sten gun / enfield / and the liberator that pacifier stated... __________________ "....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -General Franks

09-29-2003, 02:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
redravin40 Loser Location: With Jadzia	Check out the Sten gun. A simple machine gun that could be made on any lathe and was mass produced in what had been canning factory's. It's basically a hose that sprays bullets but it works.

09-29-2003, 06:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
propaganda Psycho	Liberator gun or Liberation gun. Americans drop it in the thousands to the French Resistance. They were only supposed to be used for one shot but could be reloaded but that took about a half an hour. They were also incredibly but they helped obviously.

09-29-2003, 06:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	The liberator was a simple single shot pistol made from stamped steel and riveted together like the old fashioned toy guns. It held extra ammo in the grip. The grip also held the stick used to extract the last shell fired. The gun could be loaded in a lot less time than half an hour! The firing pin had a grip on it so it could be pulled back to cock it and turned to the side to allow access to the chamber. A steel shutter used as a breech block is pulled up and a round can then be chambered, or extracted using the wooded dowel. Once the round is in, the shutter is slid down and the fireing pin's handle rotated back over the the back of the breech. No rifleing in the barrel, no sights to speak of. It was meant for close range use, and cheap production and was air dropped in large numbers. The gun also included simple instructions using drawings.

09-29-2003, 08:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	cool...all helpful ideas. any good ideas on looking up standard german weaponry during that period?

09-29-2003, 08:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Your easiest bet would be to research German weaponry. The Resistance was highly skilled at raiding German armouries. The major German rifle was the K-98 Mauser, a bolt-action chambered in 8x57mm I believe. I'm not dead certain on the second number, but can confirm that the actual caliber in question was 8mm. The standard German sidearm was the P-38, made by Walther, a double-action 9x19mm with (I believe) an 9rd capacity. It was a reliable weapon of quality, though quality does degrade seriously the closer you get towards the end of the war. You would also likely see Luger P-08 as well, another 9x19mm semi-auto noted for it's high quality and overly worky action. There were a number of submachine guns in play, the so-called "Schmeisser" being the most common, also chambered in 9x19mm. There various models, MP-40 being common. The classic German machien gun was the MG-42, one of the best LMG designs the world has seen, and copied almost whole cloth by the US in the form of the M-60. It was chambered in the same 8mm round as the k-98 and produced withering fire. The Sten, mentioned above, was commonly seen in the hands of various resistance movements, though my knoledge of the French Resistance's timeline versus the introduction date of the Sten is shakey. The Brits did make staggering numbers of these 9x19mm SMG's, and you would not be totally remiss in including one or two so long as you are checking your timeline. The Liberator has been mentioned all ready. The only note I will add is that it was intended for one purpose - to allow a French person to take out a single German soldier and then arm himself properly with the soldier's kit. Other than the Liberator, I doubt that you would see many American guns in the hands of the Resistance until fairly late. All of this being said, have you decided when your story will take place? The various firearms being used will change radically depending on year. Some, like the K-98, remain unchanged for the entirety of the war, but others change many times.

09-30-2003, 07:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	moonduck-the story is set at the very beginning of the fall of france, and will continue through d-day/northwest campaign, so i'm going to have to be checking my dates like mad as is. thanks to everybody who helped answer-i've got some great material to work from now.

09-30-2003, 05:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Okay, well that does limit some of the qeapons that would be present. Check production dates and modify issue dates based on the opposition units. In essence, a front-line military unit in good supply will have the best available weapons, especially elite units. This will both mean a limited availability for the newer weapons and a lower likelihood of said weapons falling into the hands of the Resistance as the users would be more competent. Resistance fighters will seek to obtain weapons from rear echelon units and depots, not from hard-edged front-line troops. Also, always remember that it is completely safe to err on the side of older weapons. While a stickler for details will chide you for including an MP-40 in early war, no one will really be all that taken aback to see a Resistance fighter using a Luger P-08 at any point. (More Stars Wars prop trivia - the Stormtrooper Blaster Rifles were Sterling SMG's with very short magazine and mocked up optic sights.)

09-30-2003, 05:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Oh eys, forgot to add one thing - don't be too afraid to mix things up, especially with sidearms. Staggering numbers of accounts of officers carrying weapons from wildly varying sources exist. Patton carried a Colt Peacemaker for parades and a Smith & Wesson M-27 for combat. A good friend's father took a matched pair of Browning High Power 9mm's as war booty from an NVA Colonel in a bunker, and he carried a Ruger Blackhawk in .357 magnum as a sidearm while flying missions in Viet Nam. The normal soldier will carry issue kit, but officers are given more leeway.

10-11-2003, 08:51 PM	#16 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	Dont forget about the delisle. a sileneced bolt action .45 =)

10-14-2003, 11:54 AM	#17 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Making progress on the story, chavos?

10-17-2003, 05:50 PM	#18 (permalink)
MangaMonkey Loser	Hi, What about MG34 Machine Guns? I'm not all big on gun specifications and all, but I know a lot about WWII weaponry. I don't know how common these would be amongst resistance troops, but there's also the STG44 Assault Rifle, and the MP38/40 Machine Pistol, as mentioned. Thanks, Manga

10-18-2003, 09:23 PM	#19 (permalink)
peeweesbigbong Tilted	the STG44 was the very first assualt rifle (named that after Hitler called it an assault rifle) really sweet gun and ive acctually been able to shoot one

10-18-2003, 09:43 PM	#20 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	wow...forgot about this thread i guess. the story is going wellish. I'm still trying to choose a side arm that's actually fairly badass...i'm somewhat hesitant to give this hero a stolen luger...just doesn't seem like a hell of a shot. I think most of the time, the MP38 will be used, but one of the characters will have a mauser rifle that's had a scope attached. throw in some random explosives, and i think it should be a pretty kick ass party.

10-19-2003, 12:19 AM	#21 (permalink)
MangaMonkey Loser	Hi, The STG44 is one badass Assault Rifle, and did you know they developed an attachment for the STG44 which allowed it to shoot around corners? You attached a mirror and a curved tube to the end of the barrel and using the mirror, you were supposed to view around corners and shoot at up to a 30 degree angle. Unfortunately, it rarely worked and usually ended up destroying the gun after firing. They also had basic InfraRed technology for the STG44 later on in the war, which was given to some SS troopers (The "Vampyr" InfaRed technology was also equipped on night-fighting Panther Gs). Thanks, Manga

10-19-2003, 03:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Badass sidearm? A Browning High Power would be pretty trick if it is late enough for the weapon. I want to say that the High Power was built in 1935 (thus the P-35 designation, I believe), so it should easily be late enough. It is a single-action 9mm with the first real staggered hi-capacity magaizne. One round in the pipe and thirteen in the mag made for a potent handgun. As it is a Browning design, it is also reliable and accurate. Great guns, made in Belgium by FN at that time, I think. Check the facts first. If you want it to be really impressive, wierd, and somewhat out of place, try a S&W M-1917. It is a large frame revolver chambered in .45ACP (it used half-moon clips to hold the rounds in the cylinder). It is a big, potent gun that was relatively common in WWI, and will thus be available on the black market in France any time after WWI. Another good large frame revolver would be a .455 Webley. They were great, horkin' big British guns that were very common in WWI, and still used by Brit 'commando' types in WWII.