Lebell

Anyone who's gone through the trouble of getting a CCW will tell you that you don't pull a gun unless you have good reason to believe that you or another person is in danger of death or serious injury.

That means they are raping someone, beating someone, have a knife or gun presented etc.

Contrary to what the press would have you believe, most gun owners don't pull a piece because someone called them a dirty name. (And so far VERY few CCW holders have had licenses revoked.)

So again, if you see the business end of my gun, there is a damn good reason for it.

In the end, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Moonduck

Statistically, CCW holders are FAR less likely to draw than non-CCW Holders.

I was the one that said the guy that sneaks up on me and puts a gun to my head deserves my wallet. I say that because it means that I was not being properly observant and thus deserve to pay the price. Still, the point to CCW is having the option of a firearm for self-defense when it is legally warranted, not just toting a piece with which to waste some shit-talking punk. I personally have a CCW permit and rarely carry.

I have only drawn a weapon in "self-defense" once. I was working on a remote site and had a pack of wild dogs come on-site. I drew my weapon, backed off as quickly as I safely could, went inside, and then called Animal Control. I've NEVER pointed a gun at a human being and hope to continue that trend. Much like you, Biz, I don't want someone's death on my conscience, though I would do it to protect my family. Defense of life, mine or others, is the only acceptable reason to pull the trigger, IMO. Here's hoping none of us here ever have to do so.

biznatch

If you had someone menacing your family (with a gun), that wanted your wallet, would you pull out your piece or just give your wallet?
Someone here said "If you feel he's gonna kill you anyways"
what punk would kill someone? I mean you're usually not walking around in the countryside and to kill someone, conceal the body, and not have shit from it later is almost impossible these days...
what else....thanks for not making me reading posts putting down the French...I expected half of the ppl posting to be NRA kind of guys...
later yall im off to eat

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Lebell

There is no "one-size-fits-all" answer.

If a guy had a gun pulled on me and there were other people present and I felt that he would PROBABLY not shoot, then yeah, I would surrender my wallet.

If he was acting all wacky like he might kill us anyway, then I might try to pull on him, assuming I thought I had a reasonable chance of success.

If he was saying things like, "I'm gonna kill you!!", then I would try to judge the moment right and pull on him no matter what.

If I was alone and didn't have to worry about others, things would shift somewhat in favor of pulling my weapon (not to say an absolute probability however).

Finally, punks shoot and run all the time, for no apparent reason.

I can name 3 or 4 big cases in Denver just off the top of my head.

Do a google on any big city and "homicide" and I'm sure you'll get your fill of stories.

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Moonduck

Biznotch, I think the reason you aren't getting random, pointless France-hate is for a coupla reasons:

1) We try to emphasize intelligent discussion here. Weaponry is a touchy topic, we know it, and thus try to be even more mature here than other boards on this site.

2) You are not an idiot, more importantly, you are not citing your country of origin as plausible excuse for your idiocy.

3) My personal take on the France issue is that we don't really dislike the average Frenchman, it is more that we dislike Parisians, and I'm betting that you know what sort of Parisian I am referring to. I've travelled in to France as a youngster. I met many friendly, normal folks there. Then I got to Paris. Blech. Then again, I say the same thing about the Bronx as compared to the rest of America.

As to your on-topic points, I'll just point vaguely at what Lebell wrote as he said pretty much what I would.

Oh yeah, I'm a Life Member of the NRA. We're not all mindless France-haters =)

Lebell

Oh, sorry, I'm an NRA member as well and no, I don't hate the French although Moonduck has some good points about Parisians...

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zfleebin

Biznatch: two things for you. 1 the problem with a punk that will rob you is that you dont know what they are capable of and if they have a weapon this makes it scarier to not know what they are capable of. Also Punks that will rob you might not be in the right frame of mind (because of drugs, lack of sleep just lost a job etc). Second I am an NRA member and I love the french. I recognize the differences we have in culture and politics but I still view each individuals actions as a determinant of their character. People that let politics decide which nations people they like are ignorant to say the least.

biznotch

Awesome. Thanks a lot guys. (not sarcastic)
I like this thread and I like it even more when I find up the posters are open minded and haven't based their arguments against me on nationality issues but rather facts and provable points. I might as well shut up or say I'm sorry for interpreting the NRA as Freanch Hating cowboys. Thanks, and the fool here is me, because I'm the one that was stereotyping.
That said, I don't support gun carrying or anything, but it does show me that all NRA members do not have the same political views.
Your points on the "punks" who lost their job or might be under drug influence are true. There are some situations that can go out of hand because of factors that aren't always normal.
However, I still remain against carrying, because of the very often repeated argument: if he sees you're carrying, you're dead.
So a dude who knows how to use a gun, whether he's high or not, is normally still able to react to a guy pulling out is gun. That's why, I kind of persist, although there are some exceptions, most punks won't shoot you, so just hand him your wallet.
well...good night to all, I'm out to check the other sections of the well loved TFP...

Baldrick

Not really, biznotch. Look at it this way. I really have zero idea how many TFP members there are, but let's say roughly 5,000 - which is probably a low estimate. Now, with six people "arguing" their respective side of this debate, that means that .12% of the TFP users consider themselves proficient enough in Martial Arts or firearms to feel confident debating the subject. That's probably a low sampling of the general population.

And of course, a thread like this is going to attract the people who are proficient in one or the other. I have been involved in Martial Arts for about 23 years now - since I was 8 years old. I'm obviously very passionate about this subject, as are almost everyone in this thread. While someone who is proficient at knitting may have an opinion on this subject, they probably aren't going to passionately argue it in a thread like this.

Now, let's get to the real debate here... If your Dad pulled a gun on my Dad, my Dad could kick your Dad's ass...

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Moonduck

My Dad would own your Dad, dude =)

Good call on the percentages, Baldrick.

Darkblack

I would recommend anyone arguing on the Kung Fu side to just stop now. If you have trained in MA for more than a couple years then you and I both know what we can do. You will not win any arguments here and will only get certain mods aggravated at you and find a warning waiting for you in you inbox next time you log on or you will get made fun of for your life changing training that you have dedicated yourself too. They have no respect for what you do. You turning your body into a weapon is ridiculous to them. Why stop eating potato chips and watching TV all day when you can go out and buy a bunch of hand guns and be just as safe?

And for the "Sensei Darkblack" comment, actually I am not that or a "Sifu" (proper term for a teacher in my line of MA) I teach a self-defense course, not martial arts. I study and train in martial arts under Sifu Pai Mono Lee who was trained Directly by Grand Master Daniel K Pai. I teach young people ways of getting out of nasty situations when there is no other hope. Sorry to break it to you but when a woman is getting raped a concealed gun is not saving her. The training I teach her just might though. I take pride in that.

Knock it all you want.

Again, all you martial artists out there don't even waste your breath.

Darkblack

I would recommend anyone arguing on the Martial Arts side to just stop now. If you have trained in MA for more than a couple years then you and I both know what we can do. You will not win any arguments here and will get made fun of for your life changing training that you have dedicated yourself too. They have no respect for what you do. You turning your body into a weapon is ridiculous to them. Why stop eating potato chips and watching TV all day when you can go out and buy a bunch of hand guns and be just as safe?

And for the "Sensei Darkblack" comment, actually I am not that or a "Sifu" (proper term for a teacher in my line of MA) I teach a self-defense course, not martial arts. I study and train in martial arts under Sifu Pai Mono Lee who was trained Directly by Grand Master Daniel K Pai. I teach young people ways of getting out of nasty situations when there is no other hope. Sorry to break it to you but when a woman is getting raped a concealed gun is not saving her. The training I teach her just might though. I take pride in that.

Knock it all you want.

Again, all you martial artists out there don't even waste your breath.

JimmyTheHutt

Nothing like a good ol' blanket generalization to sum things up, is there?

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

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Darkblack

Maybe you didn't read this thread but I don't think I was the first one to make "good ol' blanket generalization to sum things up". So, Jimmy thanks for your input but next time read the thread before jumping in and putting someone on blast.

JimmyTheHutt

I'm glad you appreciate my input, particularly when I did read the thread. And particpated.

Are you sure you're paying attention?

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

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Darkblack

Great reply!

I can see it was well thought out and contained great knowledge of the topic at hand.

The fact that you claim to have read and participated in the topic yet wait until my post to talk about making blanket generalizations, which was the point of that part of my post in rebuttal to the comments made through out this thread about martial artists, leads me to believe that you were just trolling. Congrats troll.

Thanks again!

The_Dunedan

Ok Darkblack, cut the crap. As someone who has trained in My-Jhong Law Horn Kung Fu ( Sifu Don Perry, Sihung GM Johnny Lee, Sigong Yi Yi Ting ) and with handguns, I can come down on both sides. There are situations where my MA training will get me out of the mess, and there are situations where it won't. For those situations where it won't, I carry a pistol.
These situations are more common than you apparently think; if the assailant is more than 1 meter or to away, he is out of range of any applicable MA technique, and only a pistol, employed quickly and accurately, will do the job. At extreme close range, ie grappling range, getting to the pistol becomes difficult, and MA training is definitely a plus. However, the final, deciding factor nearly always comes down to this; who posesses greated firepower, and the ability to employ it. Kung Fu is fine for me; I'm 21, male, and in good condition. However, what about the 60-year-old grandmother? What about women in general, most of whom lack the skeletal muscle mass to effectively employ MA against a ( probably ) male assailant who will ( probably ) outweigh them by 60lbs or more, and ( almost definitely ) have more than double their skeletal muscle on a pound-for-pound basis? There are female martial artists who could resist such an attack ( Laura Truly, Gini Lau, etc etc ) but they are VERY rare.
I am also someone who has, as you put it, turned my body into a weapon, and a very efficiant one at that. But I also know that I may one day be faced with a situation in which my own life, or the life of another person, depends on my ability to shoot quickly, accurately, and without hesitation. I've known people it's happened to, including more than one rape victim who would have been spared such indignity by the posession and use of a pistol. In all but one case, these were small women who would have had little or no hope of fending off an attacker using MA techniques; the size/weight/muscle mass ratios were too skewed. I've fought people who had that kind of advantage on me; I KNOW what that feels like. When you're THAT out-weighed and out-reached, the only thing you can hope for is for your opponent to get stupid. If he doesn't oblige you, you're capital-S Screwed.
I also resent your comments to the effect that skill with firearms is lazy in comparison to skill at MA. Again, as someone who's fairly decent with both, bullcrap. Ask Jeff Cooper or Ab Topperwein or Jack O'Connor or Carlos Hathcock how long it took them to get as good as they are/were; how many thousands of hours and tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition. How much practice, how many guns worn out and replaced. Being skilled with a firearm requires just as much practice; it simply requires a different -kind- of practice.
This kind of prattle reminds me of the Martial Artists you see on television every now and again who claim to be able to stop, dodge, or otherwise negate bullets. Not physically possible. Even Qigong can't negate physics. I've seen guys do some pretty incredible things, but if you're stupid enough to argue with a bullet, you deserve whatever you get.

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JimmyTheHutt

Hey, why should I bother wasting my mental faculties, when it's pretty clear you haven't been?

Talk about taking yourself too seriously...
Blanket generalizations and now labels! When you turn ignorant, you really don't fool around do you?

I read the thread and made comments when I felt I had something to add. I may not have wasted the colossal amount of time on this that you have, but, hey, sometimes the rest of us have other things to do.
Sorry I couldn't devote every single moment in my life to trying to prove an impossible point to people I don't even know....

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

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Moonduck

Alright now, don't make me brandish my Kung Fu Pimpslap! Stop with the pointless bickering and get back to the discussion at hand, pointless as it admittedly may be =)

Frankly, the solution has been clear since about the second post. The question is bunk as anyone that can should train in both. It is the artificial set-up of the question that is provoking the bickering. (Not a dig at the original poster, just a comment)

EDIT: I type like shite

Darkblack

Show me where I posted that I am not in agreement with you? My first post on this entire thread is up about 8 posts on this last page. I only posted once I noticed someone had brought up my name and only posted to warn the people arguing on MA side to not bother.

So you really believe that you can draw a gun before the guy pointing a gun at you can fire at you? Trust me, you cannot.

I disagree. I train women how to get out of these situations alive. They use their speed to negotiate strength differences. A 60 year old woman is not going to be able to pull a gun on a guy that just grabbed her from behind and is forcing her into a car. She will be able to reach down and eagle talon his sack and rip it upwards causing him to release one arm to grab her striking hand. That gives her an out to go for the eyes with dragon in search of pearl and then run away yelling for help. Or if she has a gun, she can then pull her gun and put a few slugs in the guy...

I disagree. That’s really all I can say. My teachers wife is about 100 pounds and she can kick the crap out of most men. I would put her against any rapist anyday.

I made these comments because of comments made about the ninja wannbe's and the Bruce lee wannabes. It was a rebuttal to the original attack. I know not all gun owners are lazy couch potatoes but the ones in my area are and I use them as a generalization. I was not trying to hurt anyones feelings and I apologize.


Again, I have never claimed to be able to dodge a bullet. I have claimed though that I can disarm someone in hands reach of me. All I have said in this thread is that people that argue that MA is best will get made fun of and ridiculed by you all and you have proven this true. I have not said in this thread anything negative about guns yet the attacks and accusations have been thrown around toward me. No biggy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimmyTheHutt
Hey, why should I bother wasting my mental faculties, when it's pretty clear you haven't been?[quote]

Hehe good one.

Again, I don't think you read this thread....I never devoted my every single moment of my life trying to prove an impossible point to people I don't even know....

I come to this community to discuss things and most of the board is moderated to allow such debates to go one. This one on the other hand isn't really. I really don't see where you are coming from with your attack because you have not addressed anything I have said in this post. Maybe you have mistaken someone else’s comments on page 1 or 2 for me. Wasn't me bro.

Anyway I don't want to argue. You have your gun. I have my martial arts. Let us hope that neither of us has to ever use what we have on another person.

Have a good one.

JimmyTheHutt

I resented the automatic implication that those of us who have guns are dedicated couch potatoes. It was an insulting blanket generalization that had no grounding in reality. Considering that I am one of those that have a gun, I felt free to respond.

I actually am in complete agreement. I have no desire to ever shoot another human being, just as I am certain you don't want to hurt them in a hand to hand confrontation.

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

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biznatch

wow this is becoming childlish. I suggest you both chill cause this whole thing is pointless.

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JimmyTheHutt

Completely sensible suggestion.

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

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"This isn't a nightmare, its real. Nightmare's end."
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Disco Stu

Hand to hand combat all the way. guns are fun for hunting and target practice, but when it comes to fighting be a fuckin man.

JimmyTheHutt

I'd disagree with the statement "all the way". This is more concerned with keeping yourself alive in the event of a truly hostile encounter. Therefore I will use whatever it takes to keep myself breathing. If that's my hands, so be it. If that's putting 3 rounds of Hydroshok into someone, so be it.

As long as you walk away in one piece, you win.

Veritas en Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

__________________
Think Jabba, only with more hair and vestigal legs....

"This isn't a nightmare, its real. Nightmare's end."
-ShadowDancer

Fire

I am quite suprised that so many come down so solidly on one side of the issue or the other- I tend to take a different approach- I at this point view the use of a gun as the practice of a martial art-just as I practice with my fists, sticks, knives and swords, a gun is just one more tool in the kit - just as someone can blaze away without skill using a gun, so can one flail away with a katana- both are deadly weapons- both will kill- as I have said earlier, a discussion with an older man who is far deadlier than me brought me to this point- and i started this thread to examine the deep rift that seems to exist between both sides on this debate- what , to you people is so different about a gun and a sword (or your body for that matter) in terms of approach- both require discipline, skill, and practice to use effectively- yet this divide seems to exist everywhere i discuss the issue- admittedly a few training centers in my area, and around the u.s. seem to actualy be integrating guns into the curriculum, but overall it seems to be some giant wall- does using a gun seem less pure a way to kill- i don't think anyone can find me a pure way- will a gun solve all your potential self defence problems? I think that is unlikely- I guess that to me it comes down to martial arts being the way of survival- and to survive I intend to master any weapon available, fist and sword and gun

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Moonduck

My mind is the weapon. Anything else is just a tool.