Pre Ban AR-15 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cobalt_60 · 09-11-2003, 07:19 PM

I've always wanted an AR-15. Could anyone tell me what are the differences between a pre ban and post ban AR-15? Off the top of my head the only things I can think of are the bayonet lug and the something to do with the flash suppressor. Can anyone tell me what to look for in a pre ban? What model AR-15's where made pre ban? Please if you can discuss the pluses and minuses of owning a pre ban or post ban AR-15.

Lebell · 09-11-2003, 10:21 PM

The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban banned a list of specific rifles from importation/sale, including such guns as the Mac10 and the Striker shotgun.

It also banned guns based on certain 'features'. Per the law, a gun may not have more than TWO of the following features and still be legal:

-bayonet lug
-pistol grip
-colapsible stock
-flash hider
-removable magazine
-grenade launcher

With the exception of the last one (since grenades are illegal for civilians to possess anyway), most military style sport rifles manufactured and sold at the time had more than two of these features and were to be banned (note that none of these features (with the exception of the grenade launcher

) change the basic functioning and lethality of the rifle.)

The immediate result was that after the ban, manufacturers simply removed enough features so that now they only have two of the 5 they used to come with (almost always the pistol grip and removable magazine). Pre-ban rifles were grandfathered in.

Manufactures of pre-ban AR15's included Armalite, Colt, and Bushmaster, to name a few.

The AWB also banned the importation and sale of magazines that held more than 10 rounds except to law enforcement and the military. Since pre-ban mags were going to be grandfathered, manufacturers just starting running 24 hours a day, seven days a week producing 10+ magazines before the ban took effect.

In practical terms, there is no difference between a pre-ban and post-ban except that right now, a pre-ban will still cost more than a post ban. That will be the case until the 1994 AWB sunsets in 2004 if it does, (and something else is not passed in its place.)

If it sunsets, manufacturers will start putting out guns with pre-ban features in anticipation of the rush. Also as a result, those that bought pre-ban rifles as investments will lose money.

So right now, many pre-ban owners (and those with 10+ mags) are trying to unload their equipment.

Hope that helped.

Cobalt_60 · 09-11-2003, 10:39 PM

Yes, after reading for information on pre ban rifles I've been seeing that people are only buying them for investments. Which sucks ass! I want one just to enjoy it at the range. I found a decent web page with info on what they changed. It also explains the difference between the AR-15 and the M-16. How the inner parts in the AR-15 are made so its very hard to convert to full auto. I hope the Federal Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 like you said, sunsets next year. I guess I'll have to do some searching for info on how to have a say so on it if I can. Lebell, are you a part of the NRA? Do you think joining such an organization would help defeat this bill or at least help change it?

http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/aw94.htm

Lebell · 09-11-2003, 11:05 PM

Yes, I am an NRA member.

While there are some gun owners who think the NRA compromises too much, I think they are the best lobbying tool we have to defend the 2nd.

As to the NRA and the AWB, they are working to defeat renewal, so yes, I recommend joining and TELLING them that is the reason you are joining.

And is it hard to convert an AR15 to full auto?

Well, yes and no.

The proper way is to replace the appropriate parts which make the rifle a select fire weapon (this means the gun can be fired in semi-automatic or automatic mode by the flip of the selector lever).

This is somewhat hard to do and requires some knowledge as well as possibly some precision machining.

The cheater's way is to use a drop in auto sear or DAS. This is a little hunk of machined metal that, when dropped in the trigger group, makes the gun fire full auto when the trigger is pulled. Taking the DAS out returns the gun to semi-auto fire.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE APPLIED FOR A CLASS 3 LICENSE AND HAVE THE PROPER TAX STAMP, BOTH OF THESE MODIFICATIONS WILL WIN YOU A TRIP TO CLUB FED.

Even ONE M16 part in an AR15 means you have a FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPON (to the ATF) even if it isn't actually automatic.

As to a DAS, it is also considered a fully automatic weapon ALL BY ITSELF. DAS's are heavily regulated and also need a tax stamp from the ATF.

Lebell · 09-11-2003, 11:07 PM

Sorry, I was going off of memory.

After checking the site, guns with a detachable magazine AND two or more of the above features are illegal under the AWB.

Mea Culpa

Moonduck · 09-12-2003, 08:28 PM

Well.... No, wait, Lebell said that already. Oh yeah! No, Lebell mentioned that too. Hey, I remember... Nope, that's there as well.

You go, Lebell =)

debaser · 09-13-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell

After checking the site, guns with a detachable magazine AND two or more of the above features are illegal under the AWB.

I think the actual phrasing is:

"A semi-automatic weapon, capable of accepting a removable magazine, which has two or more of the following features:"

Lebell · 09-13-2003, 07:46 PM

Yeah, something like that.

As I thought more about it, it couldn't be 2 features.

Did they ever plug that silly loop hole that let some manufacturers make the "thumbhole" stock?

debaser · 09-13-2003, 08:27 PM

I think it was dealt with by certain states. The whole AWB really chaps my ass, what a pointless waste of legistlative time...

hrdwareguy · 09-15-2003, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell

The cheater's way is to use a drop in auto sear or DAS. This is a little hunk of machined metal that, when dropped in the trigger group, makes the gun fire full auto when the trigger is pulled. Taking the DAS out returns the gun to semi-auto fire.

Some manufacturers made the AR-15 lower with the spot for the DAS filled in so you couldn't just drop one in without machining it out.

Also when the AWB went into affect, some manufacturers changed the way the bolt carrier was made. The new bold carriers had a shorter piece in the back to keep it from collapsing. This would also cause the bolt carrier to hang if a DAS had been placed in the weapon.

Exodus · 09-16-2003, 09:22 PM

As for the grenade launcher, there are several things you can buy out there that look just like one to put on your rifle. They all shoot flares of a different size than the 40mm (not sure on that size) military issue grenades. But for all intents and purposes its basically just for show.

cuervo · 09-26-2003, 08:05 PM

check out
http://www.ar15.com

and

http://www.jouster.com
and go to the forums for ar15

Both of these sites can give you ideas of what to look for and pricing.

soopadoopa · 09-27-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Some manufacturers made the AR-15 lower with the spot for the DAS filled in so you couldn't just drop one in without machining it out.

Don't know about now, but Bushmaster hadn't done this the last time I checked. I have a friend who has a post ban lower and pre ban style upper. Hoping that the AWB will sunset so his rifle will be completely legal. Don't go that route. You can still have a badass looking rifle that is entirely postban if you check out the options. http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?...tCode=RFA2-B16

Here's Bushmaster's site. IMO, they build some great rifles, too. As good or better than Colt, and less expensive. http://www.bushmaster.com/

hrdwareguy · 09-29-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Exodus
As for the grenade launcher, there are several things you can buy out there that look just like one to put on your rifle. They all shoot flares of a different size than the 40mm (not sure on that size) military issue grenades. But for all intents and purposes its basically just for show.

The civilian size is 37mm. You can use flares or bird bombs in them. If you want to get really nasty you could convert these into 37 mm anti-personel grenades.

I have a Bushmaster and I love it. Works great.

Lebell · 09-29-2003, 11:34 PM

hrdware,

You'll have to come up to Denver sometime and we'll go shooting.

I have a Bushmaster DCM and am looking to pick up a Colt pre-ban soon.

BTW, you now need a license of some type to get bird bombs. (Thanks again, 9/11).

Anyway, I wasn't aware of filling in the space for a DAS, but I do know that the Bushmaster rifle trigger group parts are specifically NOT interchangable with M16 parts and that the bolt carrier hasn't been machined all the way back for M16 parts to work.

hrdwareguy · 09-30-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell

Anyway, I wasn't aware of filling in the space for a DAS, but I do know that the Bushmaster rifle trigger group parts are specifically NOT interchangable with M16 parts and that the bolt carrier hasn't been machined all the way back for M16 parts to work.

I don't remember the manufacturer, but I do remember seeing one that had the DAS spot filled in.

As far as the other parts go, I haven't kept up to much with the parts with the exception of I remember when they modified all the bolt carriers serveral years ago.

cluster · 09-30-2003, 10:36 PM

colt makes thiers with the "das" filled in its called a sear block.
colt also made thier trigger parts "oversized" to prevent tampering.
bushmaster will take a "RDIAS" with no machinging I belive,.,
the Registered "lighting links" were originally for the colt SP1..

tempeing with an AR15 to make it full or busrt is not worth it..
here are your options.. :

1 cheao way .. learn to bumb fire,....
2.. save up sell you left nut and get a regestiered rec. a RDIAS or a "LL"..

wanna see the paper work for transfering a class III weapon go to www.tittleII.com

form one to make a firearm and silencers
form 4 for machine guns... give the ATF $200 for a stamp wait about 6 months < if your lucky> and presto your a legall machie gun onwer.

cluster · 09-30-2003, 10:41 PM

psst dont get ripped of... just because it has the "evil: features < ie flash hider coll stock bayo lug etc> does not make it a preban...

here is a list of serial numbres..

http://www.mp5.net/info/preban.htm

Lebell · 09-30-2003, 11:55 PM

Just to clarify what cluster is saying:

Yes, there are unscrupulous individuals out there that will sell you a "pre-ban" that is really a conglomeration of post ban and pre ban parts: the result being an illegal post ban weapon.

I personally wouldn't buy a "preban" unless I knew the person selling the rifle was reputable and I could also verify that it was legal.

This is a VERY strong case of Caveaut Emptor.

(Hopefully this whole rediculous issue will be moot next year...)

cluster · 10-01-2003, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell

(Hopefully this whole rediculous issue will be moot next year...) [/B]

WAHOO!!!! Come on sept 13 2004 !!

only 347 days , 3 hours to go!!!! < @ the time of this post

>

and yes IM COUNTING!!!!!!

soopadoopa · 10-02-2003, 03:49 PM

Just to confuse you more, not only does the receiver have to have a preban serial #, but it also had to be assembled as an assault weapon before the ban. There's you another grey area. Let's just hope the AWB sunsets, and we can forget all this. I mean really, compare a preban gun with a postban one. Either will kill in the wrong hands.

09-11-2003, 07:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
Cobalt_60 Addict	Pre Ban AR-15 I've always wanted an AR-15. Could anyone tell me what are the differences between a pre ban and post ban AR-15? Off the top of my head the only things I can think of are the bayonet lug and the something to do with the flash suppressor. Can anyone tell me what to look for in a pre ban? What model AR-15's where made pre ban? Please if you can discuss the pluses and minuses of owning a pre ban or post ban AR-15.

09-11-2003, 10:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	The 1994 Assault Weapons Ban banned a list of specific rifles from importation/sale, including such guns as the Mac10 and the Striker shotgun. It also banned guns based on certain 'features'. Per the law, a gun may not have more than TWO of the following features and still be legal: -bayonet lug -pistol grip -colapsible stock -flash hider -removable magazine -grenade launcher With the exception of the last one (since grenades are illegal for civilians to possess anyway), most military style sport rifles manufactured and sold at the time had more than two of these features and were to be banned (note that none of these features (with the exception of the grenade launcher ) change the basic functioning and lethality of the rifle.) The immediate result was that after the ban, manufacturers simply removed enough features so that now they only have two of the 5 they used to come with (almost always the pistol grip and removable magazine). Pre-ban rifles were grandfathered in. Manufactures of pre-ban AR15's included Armalite, Colt, and Bushmaster, to name a few. The AWB also banned the importation and sale of magazines that held more than 10 rounds except to law enforcement and the military. Since pre-ban mags were going to be grandfathered, manufacturers just starting running 24 hours a day, seven days a week producing 10+ magazines before the ban took effect. In practical terms, there is no difference between a pre-ban and post-ban except that right now, a pre-ban will still cost more than a post ban. That will be the case until the 1994 AWB sunsets in 2004 if it does, (and something else is not passed in its place.) If it sunsets, manufacturers will start putting out guns with pre-ban features in anticipation of the rush. Also as a result, those that bought pre-ban rifles as investments will lose money. So right now, many pre-ban owners (and those with 10+ mags) are trying to unload their equipment. Hope that helped. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 09-11-2003 at 10:25 PM..

09-11-2003, 11:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Yes, I am an NRA member. While there are some gun owners who think the NRA compromises too much, I think they are the best lobbying tool we have to defend the 2nd. As to the NRA and the AWB, they are working to defeat renewal, so yes, I recommend joining and TELLING them that is the reason you are joining. And is it hard to convert an AR15 to full auto? Well, yes and no. The proper way is to replace the appropriate parts which make the rifle a select fire weapon (this means the gun can be fired in semi-automatic or automatic mode by the flip of the selector lever). This is somewhat hard to do and requires some knowledge as well as possibly some precision machining. The cheater's way is to use a drop in auto sear or DAS. This is a little hunk of machined metal that, when dropped in the trigger group, makes the gun fire full auto when the trigger is pulled. Taking the DAS out returns the gun to semi-auto fire. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE APPLIED FOR A CLASS 3 LICENSE AND HAVE THE PROPER TAX STAMP, BOTH OF THESE MODIFICATIONS WILL WIN YOU A TRIP TO CLUB FED. Even ONE M16 part in an AR15 means you have a FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPON (to the ATF) even if it isn't actually automatic. As to a DAS, it is also considered a fully automatic weapon ALL BY ITSELF. DAS's are heavily regulated and also need a tax stamp from the ATF. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-11-2003, 11:07 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Sorry, I was going off of memory. After checking the site, guns with a detachable magazine AND two or more of the above features are illegal under the AWB. Mea Culpa __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-13-2003, 07:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Yeah, something like that. As I thought more about it, it couldn't be 2 features. Did they ever plug that silly loop hole that let some manufacturers make the "thumbhole" stock? __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-11-2003, 10:39 PM	#3 (permalink)
Cobalt_60 Addict	Yes, after reading for information on pre ban rifles I've been seeing that people are only buying them for investments. Which sucks ass! I want one just to enjoy it at the range. I found a decent web page with info on what they changed. It also explains the difference between the AR-15 and the M-16. How the inner parts in the AR-15 are made so its very hard to convert to full auto. I hope the Federal Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 like you said, sunsets next year. I guess I'll have to do some searching for info on how to have a say so on it if I can. Lebell, are you a part of the NRA? Do you think joining such an organization would help defeat this bill or at least help change it? http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/aw94.htm

09-12-2003, 08:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Well.... No, wait, Lebell said that already. Oh yeah! No, Lebell mentioned that too. Hey, I remember... Nope, that's there as well. You go, Lebell =)

09-13-2003, 08:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	I think it was dealt with by certain states. The whole AWB really chaps my ass, what a pointless waste of legistlative time... __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

09-16-2003, 09:22 PM	#11 (permalink)
Exodus Psycho	As for the grenade launcher, there are several things you can buy out there that look just like one to put on your rifle. They all shoot flares of a different size than the 40mm (not sure on that size) military issue grenades. But for all intents and purposes its basically just for show.

09-26-2003, 08:05 PM	#12 (permalink)
cuervo Tilted Location: NC	check out http://www.ar15.com and http://www.jouster.com and go to the forums for ar15 Both of these sites can give you ideas of what to look for and pricing.

09-29-2003, 11:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	hrdware, You'll have to come up to Denver sometime and we'll go shooting. I have a Bushmaster DCM and am looking to pick up a Colt pre-ban soon. BTW, you now need a license of some type to get bird bombs. (Thanks again, 9/11). Anyway, I wasn't aware of filling in the space for a DAS, but I do know that the Bushmaster rifle trigger group parts are specifically NOT interchangable with M16 parts and that the bolt carrier hasn't been machined all the way back for M16 parts to work. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-30-2003, 10:36 PM	#17 (permalink)
cluster Upright	colt makes thiers with the "das" filled in its called a sear block. colt also made thier trigger parts "oversized" to prevent tampering. bushmaster will take a "RDIAS" with no machinging I belive,., the Registered "lighting links" were originally for the colt SP1.. tempeing with an AR15 to make it full or busrt is not worth it.. here are your options.. : 1 cheao way .. learn to bumb fire,.... 2.. save up sell you left nut and get a regestiered rec. a RDIAS or a "LL".. wanna see the paper work for transfering a class III weapon go to www.tittleII.com form one to make a firearm and silencers form 4 for machine guns... give the ATF $200 for a stamp wait about 6 months < if your lucky> and presto your a legall machie gun onwer.

09-30-2003, 10:41 PM	#18 (permalink)
cluster Upright	psst dont get ripped of... just because it has the "evil: features < ie flash hider coll stock bayo lug etc> does not make it a preban... here is a list of serial numbres.. http://www.mp5.net/info/preban.htm

09-30-2003, 11:55 PM	#19 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Just to clarify what cluster is saying: Yes, there are unscrupulous individuals out there that will sell you a "pre-ban" that is really a conglomeration of post ban and pre ban parts: the result being an illegal post ban weapon. I personally wouldn't buy a "preban" unless I knew the person selling the rifle was reputable and I could also verify that it was legal. This is a VERY strong case of Caveaut Emptor. (Hopefully this whole rediculous issue will be moot next year...) __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-02-2003, 03:49 PM	#21 (permalink)
soopadoopa Crazy	Just to confuse you more, not only does the receiver have to have a preban serial #, but it also had to be assembled as an assault weapon before the ban. There's you another grey area. Let's just hope the AWB sunsets, and we can forget all this. I mean really, compare a preban gun with a postban one. Either will kill in the wrong hands.