Laser Sights - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tiger69z · 08-20-2003, 08:29 PM

Hey guys, i wanted to see ur guys experiences with laser sights =)

Airsoft, and of course, real guns.

I specifically was looking in to the Lasermax gun sights and the Crimsom trace laser sights for real pistols...does anyone have any experience with them?

Thanks

Root_Beer_Man · 08-21-2003, 09:30 AM

I had used one for a bit...didnt want to pay some one to calibrate it so i did it...took like an hour :P but they are really fun to use

debaser · 08-21-2003, 10:46 AM

Bad idea.

In Airsoft you risk eye injury (to another player), in real life you risk death (to yourself).

Get a good red-dot sight. Same effect, except only you can see the dot...

Tiger69z · 08-21-2003, 02:47 PM

How would i risk death to myself if i installed a Laser sight on to my beretta?

And, Laser diodes don't cause any real injury??

I mean i've played with one on my m4, my beretta, pointted em in my eye....??

I have a red dot sight on my m4, but it'll be kind of hard to put a red dot sight on to a sidearm and holster it.

debaser · 08-21-2003, 03:31 PM

Unless you are in very clean air, the bad guy gets to see a bright red arrow pointing straight at you. Even if the air is clean, after the first shot you are a walking "shoot-me" sign.

Go with a red-dot or tritium iron sights.

Tiger69z · 08-21-2003, 04:48 PM

And as with most firefights, after the first shot people tend to know your position, thus it wouldn't be ideal to try to remain stealthy.

Of course there is the possibility of the "bad guy" seeing your red lil' dot right on the laser, but that's where cover comes in.

Eitherway, a laser sight is ment for extreme accuracy, so after "the first shot" he's supposedly down anyways.

(My comments were edited because they were not civil)

debaser · 08-21-2003, 05:44 PM

Notice how no professional shooter uses a laser.

Notice how no law-enforcement uses a laser (movies aside).

Notice how no military uses a laser (other than our PAC-4s, which are a whole different ballgame).

Sights and scopes give the same "extreme accuracy" (which lasers don't, since they are only accurate at a certain range) if you know how to use the weapon properly. They also allow you to aquire the target faster since you don't have to "hunt" for your dot.

(My comments were edited because they were not civil)

Slims · 08-21-2003, 05:53 PM

Laser sights are (mostly) useless. I believe swat teams/hostage rescue/etc. sometimes use them, but only for the intimidation aspect of the laser. In a gunfight you need to be either assessing the situation, or shooting someone, not searching for a little red dot.

cj2112 · 08-21-2003, 05:59 PM

Laser sights are a cool toy, but that's all they are, a toy. Do I like them? yeah they're fun, howver I haven't found a practical purpose for them. If you see them for what they are, enjoy them.

tangledweb · 08-21-2003, 07:24 PM

I have had an inline laser site on a 357 auto and I have a laser sight on a Beretta 9mm that I shoot for fun (mostly targets).

They are mostly novelty items and not really practical for personal protection so if you are just playing around with targets or trying to train a novice to hit a target, pretty much all of them are the same except for the brightness. The higher the brightness number(5X or 10X usually), the better you can see it (sorta) and the farther it should shine. Experience tells me that in daylight or non-dark conditions they are totally useless unless you are close to the target. If you are that close to the target, you had better not need the laser to hit it.

If you are phobic about the "little red dot" giving you away, there is a reverse laser site that is also sold that only shines onto your own site glass. They are not any more effective than any other site that I am aware of. I got one on a rifle that I bought and after playing with it, took it off as mostly useless.

Most all laser sights are fun to target shoot and goof around with but are probably better left off a personal protection weapon

Tiger69z · 08-22-2003, 03:27 PM

Tiger69z · 08-22-2003, 03:30 PM

Edited because I had nothing constructive to add.

debaser · 08-22-2003, 06:22 PM

Edited because I had nothing nice to say.

Tiger69z · 08-22-2003, 07:20 PM

Edited for all the above reasons.

Slims · 08-22-2003, 10:13 PM

What he means is that it is entirely possible to blind somebody with a laser (note the little sticker on every laser that says as much). Also, in a real combat situation, a laser sight is generally only a liability. Any 'bad buy' can easily tell where you are by looking at your laser, just as if you had a flashlight on the end of your weapon.

Quote:

"Unless you are in very clean air, the bad guy gets to see a bright red arrow pointing straight at you. Even if the air is clean, after the first shot you are a walking "shoot-me" sign."

See above. It seems to relatively common knowledge among the shooting community. Most shooters who have experimented with lasers (myself included) abandoned them as useless. If you want more information, try to google it.

'Professional' shooters generally use the best equipment available to them. If laser sights were the way to go, I am sure that is what they would use. The fact that they don't (or that they have policy prohibiting them) is evidence that they are not really usefull.

If by 'professional' you mean 'target' shooter, then of course they don't use lasers, red dot sights (where permitted) are far more accurate and are clearly visible in bright sunlight (where most shooting takes place). For events that don't allow anything other than iron sights, well, thems the rules.

I shot on several precision smallbore teams and I personally feel that a laser sight would have been useless to me (except possibly as a coaching tool for a coach to watch my gun movements). The sights we use are very good at centering a disc-shaped target. Even if you could see the little red dot, it would be almost impossible to tell if it was 'exactly' centered in the black.

It has been my personal experience (which is what you are interested in, right?) that people generally try to compensate for poor shooting skills with expensive gadgets like lasers which only further hurt their already bad habits. For a simple and direct example: If you are holding and shooting the gun properly, then how can you see the laser's read dot? Afterall, it would most likely be covered up by the sights. When you start to rely on a laser, you generally start to search for the read dot with your head up and your weapon low.

His second post was dead on. Tritium or Meprolight night sights are rapidly becoming standard equipment for low light conditions. Red dot sights are also used by many people who want the equivalent of a 'laser dot' on the target that can be seen when you look through the sight of the weapon.

Oh, and good luck asking the mods to delete this, they usually dont'. The most you can really hope for is for this thread to get shut down (no new posts). There are a lot of mods on TFP, and I am sure some of them have been keeping tabs of this thread as well.

I hope whatever you choose for your airsoft/real weapons works for you.

Peetster · 08-23-2003, 03:28 AM

I removed the crap and kept the jist. Please keep this thread civil. Yes, we are watching.

debaser · 08-23-2003, 04:41 AM

My apologies to Tiger for being hostile.

Tiger69z · 08-23-2003, 12:13 PM

Yea me too..

I guess the first post set me off

But, i apologize for letting my emotions get the better of me

Fire · 08-25-2003, 06:00 PM

I am a diabetic- in other words my vision fluctuates daily- so no precisoin shooting is possible- while I sell swords and am relatively good with one I am acutely aware of the effectiveness of a firearm- and in the middle of the night expect to be at far from my best- my intent is to find out if anyone thinks that a laser would benefit me in a home defence situation- yes i intend to practice and have begun to do so, but im thinking that red dot would help a lot in uncertain situations- what do you all think?

Slims · 08-25-2003, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fire
I am a diabetic- in other words my vision fluctuates daily- so no precisoin shooting is possible- while I sell swords and am relatively good with one I am acutely aware of the effectiveness of a firearm- and in the middle of the night expect to be at far from my best- my intent is to find out if anyone thinks that a laser would benefit me in a home defence situation- yes i intend to practice and have begun to do so, but im thinking that red dot would help a lot in uncertain situations- what do you all think?

I would recommend a shotgun with a tactical flashlight (if you think you need more than just a shotgun). At hallway-lengths the beam of the flashlight will probably only be about 12 inches around, so if you are shining your light on someone, you will probably hit them. Unless you are completely blind, you can shoot a shotgun accurately enough to hit a person. Just make sure you keep the normal stock on it. In a dark hallway, a laser sight is useless if you can't tell what it is pointing at.

Fire · 08-26-2003, 07:49 PM

yeah- always have leaned toward the shotgun- while my parrents were living on an air force base back before my birth, mom had some guy try to jimmy the lock while dad was on temporary duty at another base- there had been a string of rapes at the base so he had left here with a remington 870- she called base cops and informed him she was armed- but he kept at it untill she jacked the slide- that was the last of it-- week later another woman did it one better- she put 6 rounds from a .44 throught the door- hit the would be rapist 4 times- turned out he was a file clerk- knew when assorted husbands were off base- the bastard even lived- though as he went to military prision ( where they frown on rapists) i doubt he did so for long.... Anywho, as have been hearing that story since birth, am quite taken w/ the shotgun- sort of looking for something in the pistol dept- your statement on lasers in the dark is an important one- will keep it in mind....

pointfourfive · 08-26-2003, 08:21 PM

They aren't all bad. At least for training, it really helps the instructor see things like flinch and anticipation by watching how the red dot jumps on the target.

And other then that, there's people who know a hell of a lot more about combat situations than I do here, so I'll keep my yap shut.

yournamehere · 08-26-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg700
I would recommend a shotgun with a tactical flashlight (if you think you need more than just a shotgun). At hallway-lengths the beam of the flashlight will probably only be about 12 inches around, so if you are shining your light on someone, you will probably hit them. Unless you are completely blind, you can shoot a shotgun accurately enough to hit a person. Just make sure you keep the normal stock on it. In a dark hallway, a laser sight is useless if you can't tell what it is pointing at.

I am almost completely in agreement with you - but find that, if you have to turn around in a hallway, or around furniture, a pistol grip is better - why do you recommend keeping the normal stock - for accuracy? - a 12" circle of light should be all the target you need.

nickdman · 09-01-2003, 11:28 PM

Once again I must be completely serious on this issue. Every double barrel 12 guage in america needs a laser sight. Seriously it will help improve your aim. Now one will no longer have to aim in he general direction ofm the target. They can aim for a clear headshot now.

xenophobe · 09-02-2003, 06:54 PM

I personally prefer to keep the rifle stock in case I want to pull a precision shot with a slug... if you find that it interferes with movement in a hallway, you can do a horizontal pivot to bring the gun (and yourself) to the opposite orientation (dunno if that description made sense, will elaborate on request). I know, it's not as comfy as a pistol grip, but with a little practice it smooths out.

I also must agree with the flashlight... unless you're going to be wearing night-vision, in which case you might consider an infra-red light emitter... not likely for home defense, and I suspect the cops would look at you funny is you had gear like that when they came to investigate a self-defense shooting.

Moonduck · 09-02-2003, 08:45 PM

Used to be a neat flashlight on the market years ago that projected a reticle in the light beam. It was meant entirely for being mounted on guns to be used in low light situations with point shooting techniques assited by the flashlight. Dunno what happened to the company.

For the diabetic, I would heartily concur with the flashlight. Heck, for most people, I would concur with a mounted flashlight. I have a Surefire for my Mossberg and I really like it.

Laser sights are for novelty and certain odd practice exercises. Nothing more.

mtsgsd · 09-03-2003, 06:16 PM

I've been trying to figure out how to say my point without writing a book, and can't quite get there without being technical so...

Watch someone try to use one at a range. You'll see the dot wavering all over the paper (if they're lucky). Finally they'll try to shoot as the dot crosses the center of the target ("snatching a shot") and the dot goes flying off the target as the gun recoils. Rinse and repeat. No holes appear in the target.

The only people that might, repeat might be able to use a laser sight effectively is someone whos' shooting skill is high enough that it wouldn't really help them anyway. Yes, this is my opinion, but I do know something about this having competed in action pistol and bullseye pistol for years.

A part of accurate shooting is learning to "shoot within the wobble". This means that you accept that no one can hold the gun perfectly still for more than a fraction of a second, and that you simply have to concentrate on the sight picture and shoot within that minimum arc of movement that you are capable of.

Laser sights are the exact opposite. They encourage you to try to get that perfect shot by waiting for the dot to stand still (It won't), and then try to "snatch" it as it goes near the center. This means you'll jerk the trigger or commit some other foul and miss the shot. Lasers would only be truly usefull at very close ranges, but at that point you would have better reaction times and accuracy using point and shoot instead ie. sights aren't really needed then.

Optical sights work by projecting a dot in the "scope" that only you can see. IMHO it gives you the same advantage that a laser is supposed to give you, with the exception that it works. Dot sights are universally used in bullseye and open class action pistol because you can rapidly acquire the sight picture and shoot accurately. They will still reveal all those bad habits and shaky hands that you have, but you can learn from it and improve instead of getting worse.

Ok, off the soapbox.

08-20-2003, 08:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	Laser Sights Hey guys, i wanted to see ur guys experiences with laser sights =) Airsoft, and of course, real guns. I specifically was looking in to the Lasermax gun sights and the Crimsom trace laser sights for real pistols...does anyone have any experience with them? Thanks

08-21-2003, 09:30 AM	#2 (permalink)
Root_Beer_Man Crazy	I had used one for a bit...didnt want to pay some one to calibrate it so i did it...took like an hour :P but they are really fun to use __________________ >3 Cheers for boobies!!<

08-21-2003, 10:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Bad idea. In Airsoft you risk eye injury (to another player), in real life you risk death (to yourself). Get a good red-dot sight. Same effect, except only you can see the dot... __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

08-21-2003, 03:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Unless you are in very clean air, the bad guy gets to see a bright red arrow pointing straight at you. Even if the air is clean, after the first shot you are a walking "shoot-me" sign. Go with a red-dot or tritium iron sights. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

08-21-2003, 04:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	And as with most firefights, after the first shot people tend to know your position, thus it wouldn't be ideal to try to remain stealthy. Of course there is the possibility of the "bad guy" seeing your red lil' dot right on the laser, but that's where cover comes in. Eitherway, a laser sight is ment for extreme accuracy, so after "the first shot" he's supposedly down anyways. (My comments were edited because they were not civil) Last edited by Peetster; 08-23-2003 at 03:18 AM..

08-21-2003, 02:47 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	How would i risk death to myself if i installed a Laser sight on to my beretta? And, Laser diodes don't cause any real injury?? I mean i've played with one on my m4, my beretta, pointted em in my eye....?? I have a red dot sight on my m4, but it'll be kind of hard to put a red dot sight on to a sidearm and holster it.

08-21-2003, 05:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Notice how no professional shooter uses a laser. Notice how no law-enforcement uses a laser (movies aside). Notice how no military uses a laser (other than our PAC-4s, which are a whole different ballgame). Sights and scopes give the same "extreme accuracy" (which lasers don't, since they are only accurate at a certain range) if you know how to use the weapon properly. They also allow you to aquire the target faster since you don't have to "hunt" for your dot. (My comments were edited because they were not civil) __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while. Last edited by Peetster; 08-23-2003 at 03:17 AM..

08-21-2003, 05:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Laser sights are (mostly) useless. I believe swat teams/hostage rescue/etc. sometimes use them, but only for the intimidation aspect of the laser. In a gunfight you need to be either assessing the situation, or shooting someone, not searching for a little red dot. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

08-21-2003, 05:59 PM	#9 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	Laser sights are a cool toy, but that's all they are, a toy. Do I like them? yeah they're fun, howver I haven't found a practical purpose for them. If you see them for what they are, enjoy them.

08-21-2003, 07:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
tangledweb slightly impaired Location: Down South	more Laser Sights I have had an inline laser site on a 357 auto and I have a laser sight on a Beretta 9mm that I shoot for fun (mostly targets). They are mostly novelty items and not really practical for personal protection so if you are just playing around with targets or trying to train a novice to hit a target, pretty much all of them are the same except for the brightness. The higher the brightness number(5X or 10X usually), the better you can see it (sorta) and the farther it should shine. Experience tells me that in daylight or non-dark conditions they are totally useless unless you are close to the target. If you are that close to the target, you had better not need the laser to hit it. If you are phobic about the "little red dot" giving you away, there is a reverse laser site that is also sold that only shines onto your own site glass. They are not any more effective than any other site that I am aware of. I got one on a rifle that I bought and after playing with it, took it off as mostly useless. Most all laser sights are fun to target shoot and goof around with but are probably better left off a personal protection weapon

08-22-2003, 03:27 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	Last edited by Tiger69z; 08-22-2003 at 07:04 PM..

08-22-2003, 03:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	Edited because I had nothing constructive to add. Last edited by Peetster; 08-23-2003 at 03:19 AM..

08-22-2003, 06:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Edited because I had nothing nice to say. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while. Last edited by Peetster; 08-23-2003 at 03:20 AM..

08-22-2003, 07:20 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	Edited for all the above reasons. Last edited by Peetster; 08-23-2003 at 03:21 AM..

08-23-2003, 03:28 AM	#16 (permalink)
Peetster Right Now Location: Home	I removed the crap and kept the jist. Please keep this thread civil. Yes, we are watching.

08-23-2003, 04:41 AM	#17 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	My apologies to Tiger for being hostile. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

08-23-2003, 12:13 PM	#18 (permalink)
Tiger69z Banned Location: Sunny S.FLA	Yea me too.. I guess the first post set me off But, i apologize for letting my emotions get the better of me

08-25-2003, 06:00 PM	#19 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	I am a diabetic- in other words my vision fluctuates daily- so no precisoin shooting is possible- while I sell swords and am relatively good with one I am acutely aware of the effectiveness of a firearm- and in the middle of the night expect to be at far from my best- my intent is to find out if anyone thinks that a laser would benefit me in a home defence situation- yes i intend to practice and have begun to do so, but im thinking that red dot would help a lot in uncertain situations- what do you all think? __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

08-26-2003, 07:49 PM	#21 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	yeah- always have leaned toward the shotgun- while my parrents were living on an air force base back before my birth, mom had some guy try to jimmy the lock while dad was on temporary duty at another base- there had been a string of rapes at the base so he had left here with a remington 870- she called base cops and informed him she was armed- but he kept at it untill she jacked the slide- that was the last of it-- week later another woman did it one better- she put 6 rounds from a .44 throught the door- hit the would be rapist 4 times- turned out he was a file clerk- knew when assorted husbands were off base- the bastard even lived- though as he went to military prision ( where they frown on rapists) i doubt he did so for long.... Anywho, as have been hearing that story since birth, am quite taken w/ the shotgun- sort of looking for something in the pistol dept- your statement on lasers in the dark is an important one- will keep it in mind.... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

08-26-2003, 08:21 PM	#22 (permalink)
pointfourfive Upright	They aren't all bad. At least for training, it really helps the instructor see things like flinch and anticipation by watching how the red dot jumps on the target. And other then that, there's people who know a hell of a lot more about combat situations than I do here, so I'll keep my yap shut.

09-01-2003, 11:28 PM	#24 (permalink)
nickdman Upright Location: Hell a.k.a. Stockton	Once again I must be completely serious on this issue. Every double barrel 12 guage in america needs a laser sight. Seriously it will help improve your aim. Now one will no longer have to aim in he general direction ofm the target. They can aim for a clear headshot now. __________________ There once was a man from Nantucket, His ......

09-02-2003, 06:54 PM	#25 (permalink)
xenophobe Upright Location: Detroit	I personally prefer to keep the rifle stock in case I want to pull a precision shot with a slug... if you find that it interferes with movement in a hallway, you can do a horizontal pivot to bring the gun (and yourself) to the opposite orientation (dunno if that description made sense, will elaborate on request). I know, it's not as comfy as a pistol grip, but with a little practice it smooths out. I also must agree with the flashlight... unless you're going to be wearing night-vision, in which case you might consider an infra-red light emitter... not likely for home defense, and I suspect the cops would look at you funny is you had gear like that when they came to investigate a self-defense shooting. __________________ Time for a little genetic weeding... - Cassidy, 'Fallout II'

09-02-2003, 08:45 PM	#26 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	Used to be a neat flashlight on the market years ago that projected a reticle in the light beam. It was meant entirely for being mounted on guns to be used in low light situations with point shooting techniques assited by the flashlight. Dunno what happened to the company. For the diabetic, I would heartily concur with the flashlight. Heck, for most people, I would concur with a mounted flashlight. I have a Surefire for my Mossberg and I really like it. Laser sights are for novelty and certain odd practice exercises. Nothing more.

09-03-2003, 06:16 PM	#27 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	I've been trying to figure out how to say my point without writing a book, and can't quite get there without being technical so... Watch someone try to use one at a range. You'll see the dot wavering all over the paper (if they're lucky). Finally they'll try to shoot as the dot crosses the center of the target ("snatching a shot") and the dot goes flying off the target as the gun recoils. Rinse and repeat. No holes appear in the target. The only people that might, repeat might be able to use a laser sight effectively is someone whos' shooting skill is high enough that it wouldn't really help them anyway. Yes, this is my opinion, but I do know something about this having competed in action pistol and bullseye pistol for years. A part of accurate shooting is learning to "shoot within the wobble". This means that you accept that no one can hold the gun perfectly still for more than a fraction of a second, and that you simply have to concentrate on the sight picture and shoot within that minimum arc of movement that you are capable of. Laser sights are the exact opposite. They encourage you to try to get that perfect shot by waiting for the dot to stand still (It won't), and then try to "snatch" it as it goes near the center. This means you'll jerk the trigger or commit some other foul and miss the shot. Lasers would only be truly usefull at very close ranges, but at that point you would have better reaction times and accuracy using point and shoot instead ie. sights aren't really needed then. Optical sights work by projecting a dot in the "scope" that only you can see. IMHO it gives you the same advantage that a laser is supposed to give you, with the exception that it works. Dot sights are universally used in bullseye and open class action pistol because you can rapidly acquire the sight picture and shoot accurately. They will still reveal all those bad habits and shaky hands that you have, but you can learn from it and improve instead of getting worse. Ok, off the soapbox.