ASU2003

If society totally breaks down either due to disease, war, EMP, or solar flare that knocks out industrial food production and machinery or machinery operators...what would be the best weapon to have to protect yourself or to hunt for the scarce live food that is available after the first month?

I know people have large stockpiles of ammo, but I'm worried about how easy it would be to get the raw materials to make bullets or shells. Homemade black powder might be tricky as well.

I'm thinking a bow & arrow could be the best. It is fairly silent so you don't alert other scavengers in the area, the arrows can be re-used, and it doesn't take factories to produce the ammo.

9I also saw a TV show where they were fishing with a bow & arrow with a string attached which seemed like fun.

Plan9

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

LordEden

^ BURN!

That theme plan? That's like the uglest theme TFP has.

TFP GREEN WTF!

*****

Bow and arrow is nice for your idea, but it takes A LOT more training with a B&A than with a long rifle to become proficient with the weapon.

Also, what are you going with bow wise? Recurve or compound? Compounds are easier to use but can not be repaired without specialized machinery that most "survivors" will have access too. With the right wood and tools, a recurve could be made, but it's harder to pull. I'm talking out my ass here, but I would want a 60lb or more pull on a recurve if I was using it as a "defense" tool.

Wooden arrows break, plastic ones won't hold up for ever. Fletching is not an easy task and you need someone to really show you how to do it. Boy Scouts FTW on archery.

Rifles are "easier" but a B&A is more longterm (with training).

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ASU2003

I did search, but didn't find anything at first.

I guess it could of been added to this thread:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...teotwawki.html

And this thread is interesting too, but I'm still not sure how useful guns will be after a year or two and the ammo is gone.
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...pocalypse.html

Maybe I should have said, besides guns that you can't produce your own ammo for, what weapons would be good? Do you need to be like MacGuyver and come up with explosives made from household cleaners and fuel?

Plan9

Ammo will not be gone after "a year or two." You kids watch too many damn movies.

Let's say the basic load for the 5.56mm M4 carbine is 7 30-round magazines. 210 rounds.

Let's say that you're gearing up for Armageddon like a douchebag and buy 10k rounds of ammo.

Let's say that you go through 210 rounds a month for 12 months. That's 2520.

Let's say that you go through 210 rounds a WEEK for 12 months. That's 10920.

...

If Joe Average can go through over ten 1000 rd cases of ammo in a year and not end up dead, he's a bad motherfucker.

Unless you're super crafty, in most post-apocalypse gunfights, you've got a 50/50 chance of getting your ass zapped.

If you're still alive, you won't have a problem coming across more ammo. It'll be on the dead guy across from you.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

So...what?

I should grab a C7 and maybe a Gerber Mark II?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

As with all threads of this type:

Grab whatever you can find and avoid confrontations at all costs.

...

Look at it this way, guys; given the TEOTWAKIWROLSHTF'd!:

Guns won't disappear in your lifetime. However long or short.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Can I be the jagoff who says, "The best weapon is yer mind!!!"

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

LordEden

I still say that Fat Survivalist Guys who the gun geeks talk about all the time will be like treasure chests in RPG games. Just look for abandoned looking buildings with lots of jacked up trucks in the driveway and the dead fat guy in tacicool gear who ran 10 feet to far.

*Searching house*

Ooooo, storage lockers.

*Menu Command: Open Locker*

*You have found: More rounds of ammo than you can carry*

JACKPOT!

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Baraka_Guru

Eden wins the thread.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ASU2003

The last time I use a bow & arrow was in Boy Scouts with arrows I made.

It would be more of a hunting weapon, opposed to a human defense weapon.

LordEden

Hunting? Both have their advantages and disadvantages. I'm thinking of going bow hunting this year with my Uncle along with my long rifle. Just for the experience.

[Again, talking out my ass] My view on B&A or whatever... A weapon is a weapon, I'd want it to be a weapon capable of defense or offence. If a confrontation happened between someone wanting my stuff (any of the 4Bs) and I had to defend my life, I wouldn't want to have to switch weapons to do that. I'd want to be able to hunt to kill or shoot to kill with whatever weapon I had in my hands at that moment. 'Cause of Hollywood has taught us anything is that the gun fights in movies have no indication of what happens IRL.

[Massively talking out my ass as I've never seen real combat or had to defend myself] You would think it would come down to, "Hey, I see someone. OH SHIT they are armed and I don't know them. SHIT THEY SAW ME!" Then you either shoot to kill, get shot at or run. No extended gun battles, no GTA style "hold on let me switch from my hunting weapon to my close-to-mid range fighting weapon", no hollywood 10 minute gun shootouts.

Then again, I'm a Civvie and I'm Not A Geinus (tm). I don't know jack.

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RogueGypsy

When the ammo runs out, I'll be using airguns. Even if I have ammo, for close in and quiet, I'll be using airguns. Of course, I'm not talking about a Daisy BB gun or even a nifty Marksman BB/pellet gun. They're pretty useless for anything more than shooting paper or plastic GI Joes. Something a little more advanced.


This one works well for anything smaller than a Deer out to 100 yds and anything smaller than a Bison under 75yds with a head shot.





Of course they make semi-auto PCP's (Pre-Charged Pneumatics) as well and who wouldn't want a Big Bore in case you stumble across a heard of Bison.
Quackenbush Air Guns

Of course if you want to be really cool, you'll get on the waiting list for Barnes Barnes Pneumatic Index Page Because this man makes deadly art.

To get an idea of what they make these days browse around this site Airguns - Browse Air Rifles by Caliber and Air Rifle Manufacturer. There are better retailers, but they have the largest selection.

Most of the PCP's in .22 will shoot 100+ rounds on a charge. To recharge, you can use filled scuba tanks or when they're all gone, a high pressure pump similar to a bike pump. You can also adjust pressure on most of the PCP's. So if you want a close silent shot or just want to save air, dial it down to 600-900 lbs. If it's long range let'er fly at 1500lb+.

Rounds are cheap and can easily be cast at home and because they don't rely on a perfect measure and burn of powder, they are far more accurate than firearms.

If you prefer self contained units, there are several power plants available.
Spring, single pump pneumatic air spring, multi-pump pneumatic are all self contained plants and used by air gun hunters every day.

These and a Big Fuckin' Machete are my post-apocalyptic weapons of choice. A cross bow is another option, I'm just not as familiar with them.




.
...

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Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

KirStang

Huh...a break barrel .177 cal airgun may be good for nailing birds for grub. Good point.

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RogueGypsy

I know quiet a few airgunners that hunt Rabbit, Prairie Dogs, Squirrel, Raccoon, Chucker, Quail, Doves and just about any other small game with a Beeman R7. Which is a relatively low power Break Barrel (around 600-700fps) with great success. Talking post-Apocalypse, particularly in an urban setting, the most abundant food source is going to be your neighbors former pets and their off-spring. A break barrel .177 will make for some quick and easy Dog Tacos and Cat casserole.


..


..

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Strange Famous

A fishing rod, a spear and a bible.

Men are not wild beasts. If it all breaks down I doubt man will forget every advantage he has over dumb animals straight away.

A fishing rod is the best and simplest method of catching food that I know how to use.

A spear will be sufficient defence against wild beasts in most cases.

A bible (since I cant carry around lots of books) because knowledge, the ability to share knowledge and create communal means of production and co-operation, is the most powerful weapon man has ever had, is the one power that made man in the first place the most feared predator in the history of earth.

I would not seek a gun to defend myself from other man. Does not he who live by the sword die by the sword?

You are more likely to be safe from other men by having (1 - no great surplus they can steal and 2 - posing no aggressive threat to them) than by being armed to the teeth.

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------

I am genuinely not trying to take the piss... but you really seem to be overlooking the obvious. You CAN and grow vegtables and other crops before you have to go around shooting peoples pet dogs with a rifle.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

LordEden

Plants don't just spring up overnight, we are talking months to harvest eatable fruits/veggies (from planting seeds to harvest) unless you get lucky and are in a farming area around harvest time. Even then you will need to store back a lot of food to maintain yourself to the next harvest and through seasons non-growing weather.

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Willravel

The maddox is the ultimate gentleman's weapon: it's as good at landing in the forehead of mutant cannibals as ditch digging or removing a stump. It basically has unlimited ammo (looks at all the gun and bow and arrow owners), it doesn't dull as quickly as an ax, and it's one of the most useful outdoor tools in existence.

The_Jazz

A hot blonde chick that's easy. I can sic her on 9er and steal all his stuff while he's getting his smooth spot polished.

Or my Leatherman. I can make most anything else I'll need with that.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

KirStang

There's an attractive brunette in my class with the last name Leatherman. Does that count?

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RogueGypsy

No piss taken. But as LordEden pointed out, produce takes time to produce. And again as LE stated, there's a limited growing season making it necessary to stock pile goods for the winter, which would give you a stock pile for people to steal.

I'll also highlight the fact that people lie, cheat, steal and murder now, when they have an option. What will they do when they think they have no options? I'm sure there will be groups of peaceful people who band together and form agrarian groups, but there will also be groups who'd rather take what others have, than make their own. Just sayin'. When the shit hits the fan, all bets are off and if you aren't prepared to defend what is yours, you will loose it.

Really, I wish more people thought like you, nice and peaceful. But I've witnessed, up close and personal, the riots, looting and aggression of desperate and really pissed-off people. It's a vivid reminder that we're only one Chromosome away from Ape with a far worse attitude.

Fishing pole is a good idea though, as long as you have the ocean, a big lake or river near by.

---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

Oh, and personally I just couldn't go vegan it's not in my nature. I need to kill things and eat them to feel superior.

..
..

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Strange Famous

there are edible plants that can harvest at any time of the year in most climates (certainly the one I live in) and if the chips go down in mid winter there is a good amount of tinned food that would last through the first winter and gave you the chance to build up stocks.

And if it comes to it, I would still prefer fishing (or catching rabbits, which are rather populous) to stalking around shooting dogs and cats with airguns.

Im not saying if I was hungry I wouldnt kill an eat a dog. I just dont think it is accurate to view it as the most likely main food source in an urban area.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

RogueGypsy

Not many fish and rabbits in the city, edible plants either, where the most people are, but lot's of dogs, cats, rats and pigeons. Take your pick. As for tins, if you don't have them stock piled (which you advise against), then you'll be looking for grocery stores which will likely be cleaned out in the first week. I can almost guarantee you, urban areas will be well populated with packs of feral dogs and cats within the first year. There is nothing else to compete with them for food, except us.

I'm not trying to piss in your Cheerios here, I just think your view is unrealistic. Try living in a city for a week without buying any food, let me know how it goes (no dumpster diving either). I'm betting Cat's and Rats will be looking really good around day 3, maybe some dandelions if you can find a park.

Rural is another story all together.

__________________
Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

Zeraph

Me? I just need my sword and maybe a few of my throwing knives. Camouflage being the most important thing. And since I can make a gillie suit from scratch...

Strange Famous

Well, not all, but many cities will be near the coast or a river or lake (for fishing)

And rabbits breed like bastards everywhere they have the chance. If you have the space and basic materials I should imagine very easy to farm.

I wouldnt aim to stay in the city where all the people are, I would head for the country to get away from the violence. Even if you are in a big city like London you are within a days walk to countryside.

Even if I had to hunt dogs and cats, I would think trapping would be more efficient then shooting them. You;d have to assume that as a survivor of an event like this the human population has been massively reduced? There are far less people to use the existing resources... I think there would be plenty of food for everyone to get through the first winter... just in terms of canned and preserved food.

_

I really am not thinking in terms of offensive weaponary I would want, but tools that would be the most useful. A sharp knife (for carving and butchering) would certainly be a useful addition. Once I got into wild nature and had me a little shelter, I would simply share what I had with anyone who came by, and hope they would find co-operation a better option than robbery. A spear and a fire is more than adequate to protect me from any wild creature in the UK (or the US if I lived there)

Of course, there is a risk. Today there are risks and in a world like this there will be no protection at all. By I think living peacefully gives you a better chance of survival than being heavily armed and being prepared to shoot or be shot on sight. The winters are not servere here and I could still fish.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

DaveOrion

District 9 (taking into consideration that you have prawn DNA)

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Walt

False. The correct answer would have been "a woman". They're natural gatherers. As a bonus:

• Women are also valuable in barter situations.
• Their incessant talking makes them ideal for drawing fire
• I cannot out run a bear. I can, however, out run a woman.
• Sandwiches aren't going to make themselves.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

LordEden

Have you ever lived off the land? I mean REALLY lived off the land? Gathered, hunted, and cooked meals using nothing but the land around you in a square mile or two? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.

Living off the land is HARD to do and takes a lot of hard work even in the most fertile of areas (I knew a couple that lived off the land they lived on, it was a full time job just to put food on the table). You have to farm (which is NOT easy, ask a farmer) and do that without a lot of the modern equipment used today.

Urban area? Good luck on that, most of the easily editable crops/plants will be scavenged over in a week and planting takes time.

You know that season? That season when it's really cold? With the snow and the frost? What's that called again... Oh yeah WINTER. That time when nothing grows and all the plants die. Try living in the dead of winter and eating what you find. Southern England may not be Canada in terms of weather, but it's not tropical by any means.

The military trains people hard for many months just to be able to live off the land they happen to crash/end up in. It's not easy and it's a hard, hard life.

*****

I seriously choked on my drink. You almost killed me Walt.

I love it how the gun guys give up on a thread and just crack jokes while the rest of us armchair commandos hash it out about shit we know nothing about. It makes me giggle.

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Plan9

Pfft, I'm not interested in 99% of blonds.

...

Yeah, those jovial (and jocular) gun guys must know something I don't. Like how to tie their shoes. Meh, I don't think anybody gave up on the thread, it's just that this topic has been posted like four times in the last six months in Weaponry / Life / General Discussion. It's like Tilted Politics up in here.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Mk19s, M249s, M240s covering avenues of approach and landmines. Guarding my garden of herbs.

"SURRENDER YOUR BASIL!"

"MOLON LABE [my minty fresh paprika]"

---------- Post added at 01:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 AM ----------

In all seriousness:

I suggested a Mossy 590A1. Good sights, multitude of ammo. Decent for stopping a broad range of critters.

Or as stated before, AR15 with ammo and a .22lr conversion kit for hunting small game.

==============
Back to your regularly scheduled tomfoolery.

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Strange Famous

There are lots of root vegtables that can be harvested in winter.

The whole reason for humans being the dominant species is our ability to co-operate. While some people here are going "lone wolf" and taking sniper shots at puppies and kittens... I'll be using my bible to get myself a whole load of followers and keep the together the community. By working together, and pooling our resources and efforts, we will be far more likely to be able to do the things you rightly say are difficult (like farming) than anyone who goes it alone however tooled up they are.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

remy1492

I was of the mindset, that ammo conservation, and good lubrication will keep firearms around a long time. its the AMMO that will go bad in certain climates.

Unless you use soviet corrosive ammo.

I'd think that given the bajillion rounds of ammo in Texas alone, from .22s on up, that nobody will run out of ammo once SHTF. The idea behind a gun is DETERRANCE, I doubt there would be extended Bridge Too Far firefights.


Its the food supply I'd worry about, I think fish will be the ONLY thing left to eat after a while since every guy I know thinks he will go on some preservation and bring home a buck every night........without anybody else doing the same in a city of 500,000+.

JK1RK

I hostly think anything chamberd in 9mm 5.56 or .308 ther nato rounds. very mass produced.

__________________
"Life isn't what you make it, it's how fast you take it"!

KirStang

Glawk Nine

__________________

Strange Famous

I am the only one who thinks there is a certain painful irony that when we talk about a great calamity that has maybe killed 90% of the population, the first thought of some survivors is how to grab more weaponary? Do people really think that man is incapable of peace even if suffering a shock this grave?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

LordEden

Nope, thought better of it.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

KirStang

The SupAR-15.

It will take on any scenario.



......needs more cowbell.

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Strange Famous

A mounted machine gun doesnt seem the best bet for street by street fighting... unless you have a building you can fortify and shoot it from.

Without preaching at anyone, you could still find some moral truth in the below statement (not withstanding the source):

"Jesus said, “Blessed is the lion that the man consumes, and the lion becomes man. And cursed is the man that the lion consumes, and the man becomes lion.”"

!

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

The_Dunedan

Jesus also said "let he who hath no sword sell his cloak and buy one."

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

LordEden

*****

I really tried to resist posting, I really did.

Really SF, you now use the bible to troll up weapon threads? That's a new low man, spammers don't even sink that low.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich