Questions about optics and eye relief - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

blade02 · 02-06-2011, 09:19 PM

Story:
Took my new rifle to the range today. Squeezed the trigger for my first shot, and WHAM! the scope hit the bridge of my safety glasses hard enough to give me that "punched in the nose" feeling. Throughout the afternoon I tried changing the scope position and the way I was shouldering the rifle. The only results I came up with were either a bad sight picture (black ring in the scope) or the same distance between my face and the scope. So I had to resort to either 1. tensing up, flinching and missing the target or 2. relaxing and hitting the target but getting hit in the face. Needless to say, it was a very frustrating and embarrassing afternoon.

Rifle Specs:
30-06 Remington Model 700 ADL with a factory mounted scope (no branding on the scope). The scope has a 2 piece base (one forwards and one aft of the ejection port).

Questions:
1) Is the stated eye relief always the same for everyone? I've always had trouble with sight picture when I've borrowed other peoples' scoped rifles. I could never get comfortable with the rifle because it felt like I always had to move my head further forwards than I would on an open sights rifle to get a good sight picture. The scope hitting me hasn't been a problem with smaller caliber rifles (.243 or .270), but its happened before on a 7mm Mag.

2) If its not my eyes/scope not making for a good combination, what's the next most likely culprit? I've always been competent with rifles and shot guns before, so I find it hard to believe that I'm shouldering it so incorrect that its causing this. On the other hand, I've never had formal training, so I'm sure there's a lot about my marksmanship that could be improved.

Plan9 · 02-06-2011, 09:44 PM

Slims · 02-06-2011, 11:16 PM

Even many of the cheap scopes have an eye relieve adjustment.

Experiment for a few minutes with your scope. It may be the ass-end of the scope and look like it is a focal adjustment. Take the time to slide your eye back a little bit and then twist things just to see what happens.

Other than that you may be shooting a very light rifle (which model 700 are you shooting? ADL is basically a trimline) or just have a horribly mismatched scope for your rifle.

RogueGypsy · 02-07-2011, 07:13 AM

Not sure exactly what Slims is talking about. I've never seen a scope with adjustable eye relief. Scopes that have an adjustable magnification like 4-10x42 or the like, will list a range of eye relief in the specs, because the relief will change with magnification. The lower the mag., the longer the eye relief.

It sounds like you have a couple of issues, the first is an economy scope. Better scopes will have longer eye relief. Try the Bushnell Trophy or Elite series, any Leupold and most Nikons will have greater eye relief than the economy models. Lower magnification will give you better eye relief too. I'm a fan of 4x-6x for hunting, they give you plenty of magnification and a nice wide field of view. The only reason you might want more mag is if you're always shooting over 200 yd (unlikely) or you're a competitive target shooter.

The second is your technique. If you have the weapon properly shouldered your whole upper body should move as a unit when you discharge the weapon. If it's popping you in the eye, your cheek is not welded to the stock as it should be and your groups are going to be much bigger than they need to be. Proper cheek weld and consistent eye position is imperative to get consistent results with a scope.

If you can't get the technique down for one reason or another try a shot gun scope, they have much longer eye relief than a rifle scope.

..

..

Jinn · 02-07-2011, 07:48 AM

I have a friend who did this with a 308 and broke the bone in his forehead and nose.. walking out of the range with his whole face bleeding isn't very cool. Be glad you had eye protection.

I'm still not sure how you (or he) did it, though. If you've got it properly seated against your shoulder and cheek and you're far enough back that you can get a proper sight picture I don't know how it would hit you at all. Try moving your head way farther back than you'd expect and see if you can still see..

Zeraph · 02-07-2011, 12:44 PM

Jinn- heh, I almost did that with a .50 caliber rifle. Sorry forget the specifics. But my mentor was like WAIT! get your head back! hehe.

Anyways OP, its sounds like youre too close and aren't shouldering it properly. Don't know about the rest of it.

KirStang · 02-07-2011, 12:50 PM

I occasionally get nipped by my ACOG (1.5" eye relief) when benching and zeroing the gun. I usually find it's because of an improper shoulder weld. Have you tried leaning forward a bit, and making sure you have a good solid shoulder weld?

Slims · 02-07-2011, 04:37 PM

Well, considering that my last post was at 3:16 am following a superbowl party, I suggest that you all ignore it.

I was confusing parallax with eye relief.

Slims

blade02 · 02-07-2011, 07:37 PM

Thanks for the advice so far.

I asked my father to help me measure/judge the distance between my eye and the scope when I had it shouldered. He noticed that I was shouldering the rifle very low (only the bottom of my jaw was on the cheek piece), causing me to have to "look down" into the scope. According to him, this position resulted in my eye being about 3 inches behind the scope, but my forehead being only 1 inch behind.

After practicing shouldering the rifle correctly* (my cheek is actually on the cheek piece), my father help me reposition the scope. Hopefully I've corrected the problem. But if/when I upgrade scopes, I think I'll still opt for something with a little more eye relief.

* or what I'm assuming is closer to correct

RogueGypsy · 02-08-2011, 07:12 AM

Just remember to keep your cheek welded to the stock and you shouldn't have any more problems. If your cheek/head/upper body move with the stock, there's no way for the scope to kiss you.

I like to shoulder a weapon a few times quickly to find where my cheek falls naturally on the comb of the stock. Then I loosen the scope rings, shoulder the weapon and move the scope forward or back until the sight picture is perfect. Tighten the screws down with a drop of BLUE loctite (do not use red loctite) and you're good to go.

It just takes some practice. I know people who've been shooting for decades and still give themselves 'range ring', because they forget about cheek weld.

If you are serious about shooting, I would recommend buying a good pellet gun and a scope. There are a few reasons.

-Good pellet guns are actually more accurate than a firearm.
-Pellets are cheap compared to bullets.
-Pellets leave the barrel much slower than a projectile from a fire arm, this will help you hone your trigger technique and a consistent hold.
-With a proper back stop, you can shoot a pellet gun in your back yard. More trigger time = better shooter.
-Until you get your technique down, they are far more forgiving.

There are a lot more brands out there than most people are aware of, don't bother with Crossman or Gamo. The triggers are junk and the barrels usually need to be recrowned to get any accuracy out of them. I'm a fan of Beeman and RWS, they are well built and have adjustable 2-stage triggers. I would recommend a Beeman R7 or an RWS 34 or 36. These are break barrel spring guns and behave more like fire arms than pneumatics do. Don't worry about the velocity ratings, for your purposes 500-800 fps is more than enough, 600fps will kill a rabbit with a well placed shot at 30-45 yds. Most local gun shops carry them or you can buy online. These guys are great to deal with if you're buying online.

Straight Shooters Precison Airguns

.
...

blade02 · 02-08-2011, 03:51 PM

Interesting idea about the pellet gun. Now that you mention them, I remember how much fun it was to shoot my grandpa's pneumatic .22 air rifle when I was a kid. Plus I like the idea of not having to go to the range to shoot.

woodjutt · 02-08-2011, 11:19 PM

The site I can put up is Ebay. They do make scope mounts for the Mosin Nagant. They are specifically for a long eye relief scope. They don't require any gunsmithing, it simply involves removing your rear sight and mounting it in place. Just type in 'Mosin Nagant scope' and you will find plenty of them.

blade02 · 02-13-2011, 12:59 PM

Just a quick update:

Took the 30-60 to the range on Saturday morning. Made sure to be more mindful of positioning. It did better, but I still got whacked (although more lightly) a few times. I also found myself burning through the ammo quicker than I wanted. So when I returned home, I went on a quest for a .22. I hit up the gun shops and picked up a Ruger 10/22 and a Leupold VX-I scope.

Took both guns to the range today. The 30-06 wearing the new Leupold, and the 10/22 wearing the crappy factory scope that came with the 30-06. I like my 30-06 a lot better now. And the 10/22 helps to slow down my disposal of 30-06 ammo.

For comparison, when I shouldered the rifle with the "factory" scope on it, I could barely fit 2 fingers width between the scope and my nose. With the Leupold scope, I have at least 4 fingers width of distance.

RogueGypsy · 02-14-2011, 06:49 AM

Outstanding.

Work on your cheek weld with the 10-22, the less violent backlash should allow you to focus more on technique and less on dodging the scope. It should all translate over to the .06.

..
...

02-06-2011, 09:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
blade02 Insane	Questions about optics and eye relief Story: Took my new rifle to the range today. Squeezed the trigger for my first shot, and WHAM! the scope hit the bridge of my safety glasses hard enough to give me that "punched in the nose" feeling. Throughout the afternoon I tried changing the scope position and the way I was shouldering the rifle. The only results I came up with were either a bad sight picture (black ring in the scope) or the same distance between my face and the scope. So I had to resort to either 1. tensing up, flinching and missing the target or 2. relaxing and hitting the target but getting hit in the face. Needless to say, it was a very frustrating and embarrassing afternoon. Rifle Specs: 30-06 Remington Model 700 ADL with a factory mounted scope (no branding on the scope). The scope has a 2 piece base (one forwards and one aft of the ejection port). Questions: 1) Is the stated eye relief always the same for everyone? I've always had trouble with sight picture when I've borrowed other peoples' scoped rifles. I could never get comfortable with the rifle because it felt like I always had to move my head further forwards than I would on an open sights rifle to get a good sight picture. The scope hitting me hasn't been a problem with smaller caliber rifles (.243 or .270), but its happened before on a 7mm Mag. 2) If its not my eyes/scope not making for a good combination, what's the next most likely culprit? I've always been competent with rifles and shot guns before, so I find it hard to believe that I'm shouldering it so incorrect that its causing this. On the other hand, I've never had formal training, so I'm sure there's a lot about my marksmanship that could be improved.

02-06-2011, 09:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	... __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 02-06-2011 at 11:34 PM..

02-06-2011, 11:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Even many of the cheap scopes have an eye relieve adjustment. Experiment for a few minutes with your scope. It may be the ass-end of the scope and look like it is a focal adjustment. Take the time to slide your eye back a little bit and then twist things just to see what happens. Other than that you may be shooting a very light rifle (which model 700 are you shooting? ADL is basically a trimline) or just have a horribly mismatched scope for your rifle. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

02-07-2011, 07:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	Not sure exactly what Slims is talking about. I've never seen a scope with adjustable eye relief. Scopes that have an adjustable magnification like 4-10x42 or the like, will list a range of eye relief in the specs, because the relief will change with magnification. The lower the mag., the longer the eye relief. It sounds like you have a couple of issues, the first is an economy scope. Better scopes will have longer eye relief. Try the Bushnell Trophy or Elite series, any Leupold and most Nikons will have greater eye relief than the economy models. Lower magnification will give you better eye relief too. I'm a fan of 4x-6x for hunting, they give you plenty of magnification and a nice wide field of view. The only reason you might want more mag is if you're always shooting over 200 yd (unlikely) or you're a competitive target shooter. The second is your technique. If you have the weapon properly shouldered your whole upper body should move as a unit when you discharge the weapon. If it's popping you in the eye, your cheek is not welded to the stock as it should be and your groups are going to be much bigger than they need to be. Proper cheek weld and consistent eye position is imperative to get consistent results with a scope. If you can't get the technique down for one reason or another try a shot gun scope, they have much longer eye relief than a rifle scope. .. .. __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous. Last edited by RogueGypsy; 02-07-2011 at 07:16 AM..

02-07-2011, 07:48 AM	#5 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I have a friend who did this with a 308 and broke the bone in his forehead and nose.. walking out of the range with his whole face bleeding isn't very cool. Be glad you had eye protection. I'm still not sure how you (or he) did it, though. If you've got it properly seated against your shoulder and cheek and you're far enough back that you can get a proper sight picture I don't know how it would hit you at all. Try moving your head way farther back than you'd expect and see if you can still see.. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

02-07-2011, 12:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Jinn- heh, I almost did that with a .50 caliber rifle. Sorry forget the specifics. But my mentor was like WAIT! get your head back! hehe. Anyways OP, its sounds like youre too close and aren't shouldering it properly. Don't know about the rest of it.

02-07-2011, 04:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Well, considering that my last post was at 3:16 am following a superbowl party, I suggest that you all ignore it. I was confusing parallax with eye relief. Slims __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

02-07-2011, 07:37 PM	#9 (permalink)
blade02 Insane	Thanks for the advice so far. I asked my father to help me measure/judge the distance between my eye and the scope when I had it shouldered. He noticed that I was shouldering the rifle very low (only the bottom of my jaw was on the cheek piece), causing me to have to "look down" into the scope. According to him, this position resulted in my eye being about 3 inches behind the scope, but my forehead being only 1 inch behind. After practicing shouldering the rifle correctly* (my cheek is actually on the cheek piece), my father help me reposition the scope. Hopefully I've corrected the problem. But if/when I upgrade scopes, I think I'll still opt for something with a little more eye relief. * or what I'm assuming is closer to correct

02-08-2011, 07:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	Just remember to keep your cheek welded to the stock and you shouldn't have any more problems. If your cheek/head/upper body move with the stock, there's no way for the scope to kiss you. I like to shoulder a weapon a few times quickly to find where my cheek falls naturally on the comb of the stock. Then I loosen the scope rings, shoulder the weapon and move the scope forward or back until the sight picture is perfect. Tighten the screws down with a drop of BLUE loctite (do not use red loctite) and you're good to go. It just takes some practice. I know people who've been shooting for decades and still give themselves 'range ring', because they forget about cheek weld. If you are serious about shooting, I would recommend buying a good pellet gun and a scope. There are a few reasons. -Good pellet guns are actually more accurate than a firearm. -Pellets are cheap compared to bullets. -Pellets leave the barrel much slower than a projectile from a fire arm, this will help you hone your trigger technique and a consistent hold. -With a proper back stop, you can shoot a pellet gun in your back yard. More trigger time = better shooter. -Until you get your technique down, they are far more forgiving. There are a lot more brands out there than most people are aware of, don't bother with Crossman or Gamo. The triggers are junk and the barrels usually need to be recrowned to get any accuracy out of them. I'm a fan of Beeman and RWS, they are well built and have adjustable 2-stage triggers. I would recommend a Beeman R7 or an RWS 34 or 36. These are break barrel spring guns and behave more like fire arms than pneumatics do. Don't worry about the velocity ratings, for your purposes 500-800 fps is more than enough, 600fps will kill a rabbit with a well placed shot at 30-45 yds. Most local gun shops carry them or you can buy online. These guys are great to deal with if you're buying online. Straight Shooters Precison Airguns . ... __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

02-08-2011, 03:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
blade02 Insane	Interesting idea about the pellet gun. Now that you mention them, I remember how much fun it was to shoot my grandpa's pneumatic .22 air rifle when I was a kid. Plus I like the idea of not having to go to the range to shoot.

02-08-2011, 11:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
woodjutt Banned	The site I can put up is Ebay. They do make scope mounts for the Mosin Nagant. They are specifically for a long eye relief scope. They don't require any gunsmithing, it simply involves removing your rear sight and mounting it in place. Just type in 'Mosin Nagant scope' and you will find plenty of them.

02-13-2011, 12:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
blade02 Insane	Just a quick update: Took the 30-60 to the range on Saturday morning. Made sure to be more mindful of positioning. It did better, but I still got whacked (although more lightly) a few times. I also found myself burning through the ammo quicker than I wanted. So when I returned home, I went on a quest for a .22. I hit up the gun shops and picked up a Ruger 10/22 and a Leupold VX-I scope. Took both guns to the range today. The 30-06 wearing the new Leupold, and the 10/22 wearing the crappy factory scope that came with the 30-06. I like my 30-06 a lot better now. And the 10/22 helps to slow down my disposal of 30-06 ammo. For comparison, when I shouldered the rifle with the "factory" scope on it, I could barely fit 2 fingers width between the scope and my nose. With the Leupold scope, I have at least 4 fingers width of distance.

02-14-2011, 06:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	Outstanding. Work on your cheek weld with the 10-22, the less violent backlash should allow you to focus more on technique and less on dodging the scope. It should all translate over to the .06. .. ... __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.