ATF to exclude Saiga12 from importation - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KirStang · 01-29-2011, 01:34 PM

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...n-shotguns.pdf

1.) Extreme narrow interpretation of "sporting purpose." Basically excludes all IDPA/IPSC/3-gun type activities from the term 'sporting purpose.' Instead, the ATF proposes to narrowly construes 'sporting purpose' to only include bird hunting and skeet. (Sound familiar?)

Quote:

The USPSA currently reports approximately 19,000 members that participate in shooting events
throughout the United States.
32
While USPSA’s reported membership is within the range of
members for some other shotgun shooting organizations,
33
organizations involved in shotgun
hunting of particular game such as ducks, pheasants and quail indicate significantly more
members than any of the target shooting organizations.
34
Because a determination on the
sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of
those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study
to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are “sporting” for
purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns
because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on
practical shooting or “police/combat-type” competitions may have an impact on the sporting
suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain
practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is “generally
recognized” as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,
practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.
Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect
of the practical shooting competitions.
As a result, the working group based the following sporting suitability criteria on the traditional
sports of hunting, trap and skeet target shooting.

2.)The ATF basically follows the AWB (and even quotes approvingly from the AWB) in determining what's a non-sporting purpose. (Many, many cosmetic features mentioned).

Quote:

Firearm Features
In reviewing the shotguns used for those activities classified as sporting purposes, the working
group examined State hunting laws, rules, and guidelines for shooting competitions and shooting
organizations; industry advertisements and literature; scholarly and historical publications; and
statistics on participation in the respective shooting sports. Following this review, the working
group determined that certain shotgun features are not particularly suitable or readily adaptable
for sporting purposes. These features include:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.
Although the features listed above do not represent an exhaustive list of possible shotgun
features, designs or characteristics, the working group determined that shotguns with any one of
these features are most appropriate for military or law enforcement use. Therefore, shotguns
containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to
generally recognized sporting purposes such as hunting, trap, sporting clay, and skeet shooting.
Each of these features and an analysis of each of the determinations are included within the main
body of the report.

Although this only affects a narrow portion of gun-rights, that is the ability to import shotguns, I feel like this sets a dangerous precedent for future gun rights if this proposed agency rules becomes regulation (and thereby adopts the force of law).

This report is only the study to influence a proposed regulation--If you feel that this interpretation is improper, as it blithely ignores sport-shooting (IPSC/IDPA/3Gun) as a sport and instead carries to the 'hunting-bubba' interpretation, please do not hesitate to write to the ATF. I will be sending the ATF a letter voicing my discomfort with their narrow interpretation of sporting purpose.

(I AM NOT A LAWYER)

Under the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) section 553, agencies must propose a new rule, provide the opportunity for notice and hearing, before adopting a final rule. This looks like ATF's first step in a long line of procedure to amend the importation regulations.

dksuddeth · 01-29-2011, 02:51 PM

hopefully this gets challenged and voided. heller and mcdonald should do away with the sporting purpose issue.

Plan9 · 01-29-2011, 03:01 PM

Yeah, I guess I better go spend $2895 to buy one at dumbass middle class cracker Obama Mania-fueled exorbitant prices.

Zeraph · 01-30-2011, 12:13 PM

"I hunt man, isn't that a sport?"

I'll bet they get that a lot

Still sad to see...

Plan9 · 01-30-2011, 12:27 PM

Zeraph,

The Zodiac Killer called. He wants his lines back. And his creepy vibes.

- Everybody on the board

Zeraph · 01-30-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

Zeraph,

The Zodiac Killer called. He wants his lines back. And his creepy vibes.

- Everybody on the board

Lol. I wasn't saying that. I was quoting most-likely-people that write to them.

KirStang · 01-30-2011, 01:53 PM

I am disturbed by the ATFs interpretation of sports.

Based on their interpretation, 'sporting purpose' only involves things like shooting animals, shooting inanimate clay objects, or maybe even the competitive enterprise of throwing oblong balls down a striped field.

It just reflects a world view that I am uncomfortable with. I have not studied the legislative history of the GCAs, but I suppose the reason the GCAs excluded non sporting weapons was to limit importation of weapons which made killing people easier.

Rather than go through the fiction of calling IDPA/IPSC/3gun not a "sport" I wish they would just say what they wanted to say--"we don't want to import guns that make it easier to kill people."

dksuddeth · 01-30-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

I am disturbed by the ATFs interpretation of sports.

Based on their interpretation, 'sporting purpose' only involves things like shooting animals, shooting inanimate clay objects, or maybe even the competitive enterprise of throwing oblong balls down a striped field.

It just reflects a world view that I am uncomfortable with. I have not studied the legislative history of the GCAs, but I suppose the reason the GCAs excluded non sporting weapons was to limit importation of weapons which made killing people easier.

Rather than go through the fiction of calling IDPA/IPSC/3gun not a "sport" I wish they would just say what they wanted to say--"we don't want to import guns that make it easier to kill people."

they don't want to import guns that make it easier for civilians to kill people. This ruling exempts law enforcement.

Plan9 · 01-30-2011, 03:07 PM

So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside.

Walt · 01-30-2011, 03:35 PM

I don't understand the ATF's proposed exemption. Does the term "light enhancing devices" refer to flashlights?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside.

Because it sucks and it causes you to lose your faith in humanity. But driving fast is really cool.

KirStang · 01-30-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt

I don't understand the ATF's proposed exemption. Does the term "light enhancing devices" refer to flashlights?

Because it sucks and it causes you to lose your faith in humanity. But driving fast is really cool.

Yes. Both rails and flashlights.

dksuddeth · 01-31-2011, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside.

i wouldn't like what the experience would do for my ethics, morals, and principals.

Plan9 · 01-31-2011, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

...ethics, morals, and principals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

What are those?

/so the joke goes

Walt · 01-31-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

Yes. Both rails and flashlights.

I didn't read the pdf. Did the ATF explain why being able to see what you're shooting at in a home defense-type scenario is a bad thing?

KirStang · 01-31-2011, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt

I didn't read the pdf. Did the ATF explain why being able to see what you're shooting at in a home defense-type scenario is a bad thing?

Well, the restriction is on importing shotguns which are should only be imported if they have a 'sporting purpose.' Because shooting a badguy at 2 am in your darkly lit home is not a 'sporting purpose,' the ATF defines rails and lights as unimportable.

01-29-2011, 02:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	hopefully this gets challenged and voided. heller and mcdonald should do away with the sporting purpose issue. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

01-29-2011, 03:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Yeah, I guess I better go spend $2895 to buy one at dumbass middle class cracker Obama Mania-fueled exorbitant prices. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

01-30-2011, 12:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Zeraph, The Zodiac Killer called. He wants his lines back. And his creepy vibes. - Everybody on the board __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

01-30-2011, 03:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

01-30-2011, 12:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	"I hunt man, isn't that a sport?" I'll bet they get that a lot Still sad to see...