Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Interests > Tilted Weaponry


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-29-2011, 01:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
Future Bureaucrat
 
KirStang's Avatar
 
ATF to exclude Saiga12 from importation

http://www.atf.gov/publications/fire...n-shotguns.pdf

1.) Extreme narrow interpretation of "sporting purpose." Basically excludes all IDPA/IPSC/3-gun type activities from the term 'sporting purpose.' Instead, the ATF proposes to narrowly construes 'sporting purpose' to only include bird hunting and skeet. (Sound familiar?)

Quote:
The USPSA currently reports approximately 19,000 members that participate in shooting events
throughout the United States.
32
While USPSA’s reported membership is within the range of
members for some other shotgun shooting organizations,
33
organizations involved in shotgun
hunting of particular game such as ducks, pheasants and quail indicate significantly more
members than any of the target shooting organizations.
34
Because a determination on the
sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of
those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study
to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are “sporting” for
purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns
because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on
practical shooting or “police/combat-type” competitions may have an impact on the sporting
suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain
practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is “generally
recognized” as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events,
practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns.
Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect
of the practical shooting competitions.
As a result, the working group based the following sporting suitability criteria on the traditional
sports of hunting, trap and skeet target shooting.
2.)The ATF basically follows the AWB (and even quotes approvingly from the AWB) in determining what's a non-sporting purpose. (Many, many cosmetic features mentioned).

Quote:
Firearm Features
In reviewing the shotguns used for those activities classified as sporting purposes, the working
group examined State hunting laws, rules, and guidelines for shooting competitions and shooting
organizations; industry advertisements and literature; scholarly and historical publications; and
statistics on participation in the respective shooting sports. Following this review, the working
group determined that certain shotgun features are not particularly suitable or readily adaptable
for sporting purposes. These features include:
(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;
(2) bayonet lugs;
(3) flash suppressors;
(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;
(5) grenade-launcher mounts;
(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);
(7) light enhancing devices;
(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);
(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);
(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the
shotgun with the shooter’s extended hand.
Although the features listed above do not represent an exhaustive list of possible shotgun
features, designs or characteristics, the working group determined that shotguns with any one of
these features are most appropriate for military or law enforcement use. Therefore, shotguns
containing any of these features are not particularly suitable for nor readily adaptable to
generally recognized sporting purposes such as hunting, trap, sporting clay, and skeet shooting.
Each of these features and an analysis of each of the determinations are included within the main
body of the report.
Although this only affects a narrow portion of gun-rights, that is the ability to import shotguns, I feel like this sets a dangerous precedent for future gun rights if this proposed agency rules becomes regulation (and thereby adopts the force of law).

This report is only the study to influence a proposed regulation--If you feel that this interpretation is improper, as it blithely ignores sport-shooting (IPSC/IDPA/3Gun) as a sport and instead carries to the 'hunting-bubba' interpretation, please do not hesitate to write to the ATF. I will be sending the ATF a letter voicing my discomfort with their narrow interpretation of sporting purpose.

(I AM NOT A LAWYER)

Under the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) section 553, agencies must propose a new rule, provide the opportunity for notice and hearing, before adopting a final rule. This looks like ATF's first step in a long line of procedure to amend the importation regulations.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."

Last edited by KirStang; 01-30-2011 at 12:45 PM..
KirStang is offline  
Old 01-29-2011, 02:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
hopefully this gets challenged and voided. heller and mcdonald should do away with the sporting purpose issue.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 01-29-2011, 03:01 PM   #3 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Yeah, I guess I better go spend $2895 to buy one at dumbass middle class cracker Obama Mania-fueled exorbitant prices.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 12:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
"I hunt man, isn't that a sport?"

I'll bet they get that a lot

Still sad to see...
Zeraph is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 12:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Zeraph,

The Zodiac Killer called. He wants his lines back. And his creepy vibes.

- Everybody on the board
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 12:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
Zeraph,

The Zodiac Killer called. He wants his lines back. And his creepy vibes.

- Everybody on the board
Lol. I wasn't saying that. I was quoting most-likely-people that write to them.
Zeraph is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 01:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
Future Bureaucrat
 
KirStang's Avatar
 
I am disturbed by the ATFs interpretation of sports.

Based on their interpretation, 'sporting purpose' only involves things like shooting animals, shooting inanimate clay objects, or maybe even the competitive enterprise of throwing oblong balls down a striped field.

It just reflects a world view that I am uncomfortable with. I have not studied the legislative history of the GCAs, but I suppose the reason the GCAs excluded non sporting weapons was to limit importation of weapons which made killing people easier.

Rather than go through the fiction of calling IDPA/IPSC/3gun not a "sport" I wish they would just say what they wanted to say--"we don't want to import guns that make it easier to kill people."
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."

Last edited by KirStang; 01-30-2011 at 02:00 PM..
KirStang is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 03:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirStang View Post
I am disturbed by the ATFs interpretation of sports.

Based on their interpretation, 'sporting purpose' only involves things like shooting animals, shooting inanimate clay objects, or maybe even the competitive enterprise of throwing oblong balls down a striped field.

It just reflects a world view that I am uncomfortable with. I have not studied the legislative history of the GCAs, but I suppose the reason the GCAs excluded non sporting weapons was to limit importation of weapons which made killing people easier.

Rather than go through the fiction of calling IDPA/IPSC/3gun not a "sport" I wish they would just say what they wanted to say--"we don't want to import guns that make it easier to kill people."
they don't want to import guns that make it easier for civilians to kill people. This ruling exempts law enforcement.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 03:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 03:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
I'm calmer than you are, dude
 
Walt's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
I don't understand the ATF's proposed exemption. Does the term "light enhancing devices" refer to flashlights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside.
Because it sucks and it causes you to lose your faith in humanity. But driving fast is really cool.
__________________
Calmer than you are...
Walt is offline  
Old 01-30-2011, 09:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
Future Bureaucrat
 
KirStang's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
I don't understand the ATF's proposed exemption. Does the term "light enhancing devices" refer to flashlights?



Because it sucks and it causes you to lose your faith in humanity. But driving fast is really cool.
Yes. Both rails and flashlights.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."
KirStang is offline  
Old 01-31-2011, 06:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post
So why aren't you a cop, DK? Ya know, work the system from the inside.
i wouldn't like what the experience would do for my ethics, morals, and principals.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 01-31-2011, 06:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth View Post
...ethics, morals, and principals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
What are those?
/so the joke goes
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Last edited by Plan9; 01-31-2011 at 06:47 AM..
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-31-2011, 11:34 AM   #14 (permalink)
I'm calmer than you are, dude
 
Walt's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
Quote:
Originally Posted by KirStang View Post
Yes. Both rails and flashlights.
I didn't read the pdf. Did the ATF explain why being able to see what you're shooting at in a home defense-type scenario is a bad thing?
__________________
Calmer than you are...
Walt is offline  
Old 01-31-2011, 12:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
Future Bureaucrat
 
KirStang's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
I didn't read the pdf. Did the ATF explain why being able to see what you're shooting at in a home defense-type scenario is a bad thing?
Well, the restriction is on importing shotguns which are should only be imported if they have a 'sporting purpose.' Because shooting a badguy at 2 am in your darkly lit home is not a 'sporting purpose,' the ATF defines rails and lights as unimportable.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieber Code on the laws of war
"Men who take up arms against one another in public war do not cease on this account to be moral beings, responsible to one another and to God."
KirStang is offline  
 

Tags
atf, exclude, importation, saiga12

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:46 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360