Zeraph

I thought this might belong in life or philosophy, but shit. You guys are much more relevant to this topic.

Do you think there is a consequence? Yes or no explain why.

Personally I have no real idea. I'd guess there's some social consequence at least. People who find out might not like you as much or certain types might like you more.

Beyond that, I don't think there's a spiritual consequence. That's just as far as taking a life goes though. Not the possible torture some criminals put people through first. My main reasoning being that people have killed each other forever, too many people would be damned if so, and that's too much of a flawed system for me to believe in.

Psychological? There seems to be an effect on some people, some not. Are the "nots" sociopaths? Or just trained? Right set of mind? I'd think the latter.

Baraka_Guru

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-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- As it stands, this thread is set up as a discussion about the use of a weapon in taking the life of another. This is not a thread about whether it's okay to do this or not. As it stands, this thread is in Tilted Weaponry (i.e. a discussion about weapon ownership and use), not Tilted Politics or Tilted Philosophy. Please respect that. If the discussion does naturally evolve into the philosophical (or, heh, political), then it may warrant a transfer to another forum. Strong-arming the discussion in these directions will not be tolerated. Please follow the rules. Thank you.

Zeraph

I just I figured the relevance outweighed the subject. If you feel differently, as I originally implied, feel free to move it.

Baraka_Guru

It's fine...for now.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SSJTWIZTA

i can only see myself taking a life if i am attacked. i dont really know how i'd feel about it. there would probably be an overwhelming sense of happiness knowing that i came out of it alive, along with a long depression after the realization that i may spend some time in prison.

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

Walt

Aren't the consequences similar to eating chinese food in that 30 minutes later, you want to do it again?

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Calmer than you are...

SSJTWIZTA

maybe if you're a sociopath. but fuck, chinese sounds wonderful.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

SirLance

You cross a boundary that cannot be uncrossed. You can live with it, or you can't. Many can't. Many can. Operating under a certain set of rules made it something I can, but outside of those rules, I don't think I could live with it.

If you are not a psycho, this has an impact, and it isn't usually a good one.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

debaser

Yes, there are consequences.

It sucks.

It sucks like watching your house burn down, or losing your first love, or having your puppy die. It's effect is indelible. That being said, I would not hesitate to do it again given the proper circumstances.

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Plan9

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Slims

I haven't noticed any long term consequences among the people I work with who have killed people (sometimes many, many people).

Everyone I know does get a little 'tweaked' but I think that is more from the stress of combat than from the act of killing. Typically after a big fight guys have a little trouble sleeping, etc. for a few days. However, after an 'easy' fight that is mostly one sided there are no problems, despite our guys killing people.

I think this is due to a couple of reasons:

1: There is no perceived moral ambiguity....We are shooting people who are shooting at us.

2: We are prepared for the eventuality that we will have to shoot people and thus it isn't a 'surprise' where you have to make a decision that is far outside your psychological norm.

3: We are not coddled by an institution that 'expects' you to be messed up following a killing and treats you accordingly. Instead of sympathy our guys get a slap on the back...Then life goes on.

I attended a fantastic lecture by Dr. Dave Grossman (wrote On Killing and On Combat) who is probably the foremost psychologist regarding the psychological effects of warfare and one of his primary points was the power of social conditioning and it's impact on how you behave following shooting someone or getting shot. Basically when you are told from an early age that killing is a horrible thing to be avoided at all costs and will be psychologically shattering, and then you are put in a culture where you are treated that way following a shooting....you are far more likely to have problems than someone limmersed in a culture that treats it as a social norm and simple necessity.

A good example (in reverse) is the behavior of people who get shot. In many, many documented cases in the United States (according to Grossman) people act like they are in the movies when they get shot (i.e. flying backwards, dropping to the floor, etc.) even when shot with small caliber rounds in non-incapacitating places. Contrariwise, in many parts of the world where people are not exposed to the 'hollywood conditioning' they keep fighting until they are physically incapacitated. There isn't enough energy in a bullet to throw you to the ground. At best it will cause you to drop to the ground. To overcome this assaulters get a lot of specialized training and run a lot of scenarios intended to get them over that psychological barrier so they can keep fighting even while wounded....and it works.


To sum up, I think the psychological impact of killing is more PTSD from the actual life-threatening situation which required it than the act of killing. I think a lot of the 'problems' are societal and I think they can be overcome by thinking through what you will or won't do when confronted by lethal-force scenarios until you are comfortable with the possibility that you have have to take someones life in order to protect your own.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Plan9

I'll second the notion that the "kinder, gentler" US military has bred a whole new generation of squeamish pussies despite the lack of hands-on required to actually do the deed these days (pulling a trigger at XX meters versus ramming a bayonet into their gut). It's just like Slims said: "killing is wrong" (pfft!) and "feelings require treatment" (making an illness out of a feeling). I speak as a subject matter expert: I'm a giant do-nothing pussy myself. Every time I was in a situation where I was justified in returning fire and killing enemy personnel, permission was denied by those above platoon level. I've never killed anybody, but I've had no problem following all the steps up to the point where a trigger pull separates them from this life and the next. I think the key to success is to remember that they're trying to kill you too and that the guy to your left and right want to go home at the end of the day.

I've also read On Killing (have a copy by the dining room table right now, actually) and find it to be an important reference for discussing this topic.

My general thought on the topic is: You can't be "right" in Modern Live-for-Today Society and be an effective soldier. Pick one.

...

BONUS: I hope this thread rapidly devolves into a game of who's-killed-somebody-and-how-cool/awful it is. I'm sure the hippie side will love it.

...

I'd also like to note that the "spiritual" consequences of taking a life are a joke. I'd imagine those that are actually religious wouldn't join the military.

That and god is a mythical outer space superhero and has absolutely nothing to do with you ventilating some RPG-toting Afghan teenager.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

SirLance

I tend to agree. I have no regrets, and at the time during the events in which I used and was presented with lethal force, I was fine. Adrenalized to all hell, but fine. 10 or so years down the road, I started having a lot of anger issues and went to the VA to talk to a guy about it. Got some counseling and it helped tremendously.

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

Oh, I wanted to add that I think there is an important distinction to be made between killing and murder. I would define murder as a killing that is not necessary (necessary being self defense, act of war, that sort of thing). Anyone with a conscience would have to be fucked up by committing a murder.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

thedoc

I will first agree that there is a difference between killing in a military or self-defense situation and murder. Next I would ask has anyone here had any contact with someone who had commited murder, as I have. He was a young man, not 18 years old and the opinion of the police officer I spoke to was that he would not see his 18th birthday, all over $30.00 The odd thing was that the Missouri police didn't know the victim was dead till 2 weeks later when they were tracking down a car involved in a wreck. The young man was very personable and polite and in talking to him didn't give me any qualms about letting my 15 year old daughter get into the car with him and her boyfriend, He was the same even after the arrest and seeing him manacled and in custody. I guess it shows that you can't judge a book by it's cover and the events didn't seem to have any effect on him. From what I have seen and heard about military personal they are more effected by death than this young man was. Oh FYI. he killed the man with a knife which would seem to be a much more close up and personal act.

klonnie bomber

killing people is the easy part, the hard part is living with it.

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nobody beats me in my backyard

Zeraph

Personally I've been "de-programming" myself from societies inherent rules and mores. I've never killed anyone, hope never to. But I think I could live with it. Spiritually I imagine some consequences but not much.

PS isn't like half the army christian plan9?

(I should really work for the government, but the police and military wouldn't take me. Which really is probably a good thing as I'm liking government less and less.)

thedoc

I would think that if you are to the point of killing someone, you are already living with it.

Fire

I have not killed anyone, but have worked with a lot of people that have, and have worked in situations where I was forced to hurt someone, and have been in fights, in the course of my work, where people were seriously hurt and maimed- I have no desire to hurt, much less kill anyone, but I know from experience that when someone tries to do me harm, I will react in the best way I know how to prevent this....There is sort of a square your shoulders and get ready moment that happens somehow out of time, in the fraction of a second before the violence starts, that I have seen people, even trained, combat experienced men sort of stall out at- the catchup time can get you hurt, and incidentally I have seen it happen less when there are larger numbers involved- its easier, I think, to jump, when everyone else is there with you.... I tend to , BTW think that all people are wired primarily to survive, and that killing is a part of this, unless you are a dedicated vegetarian someone is killing every piece of meat that you eat, If you hunt then you are killing something, hell, when driving your car in the warmer months thousands of insects die on your windshield..... I think our society has sort of divorced itself from death as much as possible, and this makes it a strange and alien thing, when not so many years ago it was fairly closely known by most people.....

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Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

Zeraph

Huh, no one believes in possible spiritual consequences? Here I thought many gun owner types were christian or whatever.

rahl

I carry a concealed weapon almost daily. I have never had to use it, and hope I never do. But, if a situation came about where I needed to protect myself, or my family, I don't think I would have any hesitation in taking the other persons life. I have no idea if/how it would affect me. Before I even took my CCW class, I had to be sure that if i ever pulled my weapon, I would be able to use it. I am positive that I could, in a life or death situation. How it would affect me after, I can't say. If it was a justified killing, I think I'd be fine.

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"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

The_Dunedan

I'll take a swing at this one.

Why should there be spiritual consequences for self-defense? Nowhere in the Bible, either Old or New Testament, does it say not to act in self-defense. Nowhere does it say not to kill. What it says is not to -murder-, which is not the same thing. Killing in defense of self or another is a widely accepted and endorsed practice in many parts of the Bible: if it wasn't, the Brothers Macabbees got -royally- screwed!

Whether someone is emotionally or psychologically able to deal with it is another matter altogether.

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--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Baraka_Guru

I think it's a combination of a religious/spiritual and individual matter. There are also unique conditions and consequences to consider. All of this will have their variances in how we look at the ultimate consequences.

As an example, and a contrast to some of the Christian doctrine, in the Buddhist tradition, the taking of a life will build karma. I've read stories of Buddhist monks who have been forced to take up arms for one reason or another. The experience was very trying for them spiritually.

They spend their lives working towards achieving strong compassion for all living things, and here they are shooting a gun at someone. But the way to look at it in this respect is that one would build even more karma if they hadn't taken up arms and let those closest to them suffer pain, death, and oppression if there was, indeed, the means and the will to stop it. It's a matter of choice, and then dealing with the consequences. In many cases, it's a matter of choosing the path that leads to the lowest accumulation of karma.

In many ways, the spiritual consequences are tied strongly to the psychological consequences.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot